Determinism

I’m glad that’s over. :banana-dance:

The idea that life’s determined is, at least at the highest levels of mind power, a choice of God. If God needs to create a certain, envisioned future, he can pour out all of his power to make the future that way. But, if all of his goals are achieved, then God may go for unnatural, warped futures, ones that bend the laws, or make miracles in random forms possible. And then, with many folks of a lesser soul radiance, the devil may completely take over, and make most events in the world bad.

There are philosophical systems aimed however at the liberation of the will that, if followed to their ultimate destiny, can shatter the crystal glass, and give us free will potions and elixirs at every corner.

Well, it could be if you’d let it. Over and again you reach that point with me when you swear off ever responding again. I’m just not worth it. But now, on another thread, you back off again. As long as I commit to bullshit in my posts, you are going to call me on it.

Of course what makes it bullshit is that doesn’t overlap precisely with your own.

I lose more and more respect for your intelligence with each passing post. And I can only now assume that you are but one more objectivist I have managed to reduce down to the level of the retort. To huffing and puffing about me.

Look, I’m sorry, but I grow weary of shooting fish in a barrel. And since the days of yahoo groups and ephilosopher and ponderer’s guild are long gone on the internet, I can only move on to those I at least feel challenged by.

And, of late, you ain’t one of them. :cry:

Not that this isn’t but one more existential contraption in turn.

And how do we know this? Because you believe it. And how do you go about demonstrating to us that this God does in fact exists? Well, you don’t.

Let alone offer us a substantive argument regarding how God and determinism function for all practical purposes in the lives that we live.

You take your spiritual leap of faith to a frame of mind that comforts and consoles you. This thread merely speculates on whether or not nature compelled you to do so. Thus bringing into focus the relationship between God, determinism, nature, the human brain, the human mind and “I”.

Still, there’s what you believe about this relationship “in your head”. And, if we do have some measure of autonomy, the sophistication of your argument in regard to that which is of most interest to me: human interactions given the existential interaction of identity, value judgments and political power.

Care to go there? If so, and we do have some measure of free will, you choose the context.

Free Will Is An Illusion, But Freedom Isn’t
Ching-Hung Woo says freedom is compatible with choices being determined.

Right, another so-called example of arguing that a drug addict has no free will, but is still the embodiment of freedom. Even though in viewing his addiction as a part of himself, this reflects the fact that in a wholly determined universe he lacked the free will not to.

Then we’re back to the aliens in that part of the universe where free will prevails, observing a drug addict compelled by nature to tell the court his addiction is not a part of the “real me” and the jury in turn being compelled by the laws of matter to either believe that this is true or not. Finally, the judge being compelled by her brain matter to pronounce the only sentence she is able to if the man is found as he was ever able to be found. In this case guilty.

And if his addiction was caused by a prescribed medication from his doctor, what here is not destined to unfold given the assumptions that the hard-determinist are themselves compelled to believe?

We have to envision a system where choices can be selected that were invisible to us immediately but, with penetration, can explode into view. If we go by the physical and experimental, the testable, then we are in bondage to laws, like gravity, or brains over souls, and so forth. True liberation can only be found in the elusive, in the unknown regions. We can’t be afraid of the darkness, even if that’s where our leap of faith leads. Because 1 thing is clear if we don;t conquer the darkness - we will fail.

Free Will Is An Illusion, But Freedom Isn’t
Ching-Hung Woo says freedom is compatible with choices being determined.

Wiggle room? What possible wiggle room could there be in a world where these very real Frenchmen and Styron creating the fictional character Sophie were never able to not choose what nature compelled them to choose.

What does it mean to absolve anyone of anything if everything that anyone ever does is “set in stone” by the immutable laws of matter?

Ever and always: What are the compatibilists saying here about “freedom” in a determined universe that I keep missing? What am I but compelled to presume that I am compelled to keep missing.

How were Nazis and the French Resistance, Nazis and the very real Sophies at the camps not interchangeable in a universe where the Big Bang is said to have set into motion these laws of matter? Again, unless in a way not fully understood, the matter we call the human brain is somehow the exception. Re God or re the very nature of matter itself in a No God world.

Right, like we are any more free to adopt the absence of coercion than the absence of determinism. We may think “in our head” that we have gotten out of the conflict, but that is only another manifestation of the psychological illusion of freedom. At least insofar as I have come [compelled or otherwise] to construe hard determinism.

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

No, it’s not a main trend, some insist, but the only possible trend. In fact “trend” itself is a misnomer. It implies one path chosen over another in a world where all paths are derived from and lead to the same explanation.

You know, if that is the only explanation.

On the other hand, given some degree of human autonomy, the path I am on will almost certainly never trend. After all, it’s the path suggesting that what many deem to be their own “free choice” in regard to moral and political value judgments, is really more a profoundly situated existential “self” rooted in dasein.

Which is more perturbing, right?

On the other hand…sigh…wouldn’t the “central beliefs of behaviourist pschology” not in turn be but a necessary component of the laws of matter? Or was B.F. Skinner the lone exception?

You think that you are free. You feel that you are free. Your gut instinct tells you that you are free. But any and all of these identity fonts are just manifestations of the forces that set into motion existence [and then self-conscious existence] itself.

And here everything comes down to whether or not we have the capacity to grasp that of our own free will. As a species on this planet. With or without an existing God.

And then the part where the conscious mind gives way to the subconscious mind gives way to the unconscious mind gives way to most primitive of all brain functions.

I know: let’s not go there. Really, to go there introduces all the myriad factors that makes it harder and harder to be, among other things, an objectivist regarding the behaviors that you have convinced yourself that all other rational and virtuous human beings are, like you, obligated to embrace.

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

Of course Kierkegaard, Sartre, Maslow and Rogers were in the same boat back then that we are in now. Having to assume that what they thought or felt about human autonomy – along with everything else – involved some measure of free wiil. They chose of their own volition to think what they did rather than opting for something else. On the other hand, it is also true that, to the extent we are free, this freedom in and of itself can become something that, in any particular context, we’d like to, as Erich Fromm once suggested, “escape”. And, indeed, who knows how many embrace determinism today as a way to absolve thermselves of all responsibility.

Period.

But: how do we go about determining here if nature itself is not determining everything?

My point however is that even to the extent this is not true, there are so many thousands upon thousands of variables that go into the making of “I” from the cradle to the grave, there is no realistic possibility that any one individual can pin them all down and configure them into a rational explanation as to why they believe this and not that.

I merely note how much more problematic this is in regard to “I” acquiring moral and political value judgments in the is/ought world. Here, even to the extent determinism is able to be demonstrated as not a factor socially, politically and economically, “I” is no less an existential contraption.

As for language, same thing, Given a world where human autonomy does exist, there is only so far that ones family and ones community and ones historical times can go in sustaining self-serving semantic structures relative to the either/or world.

Iambiguous said,

“My point however is that even to the extent this is not true, there are so many thousands upon thousands of variables that go into the making of “I” from the cradle to the grave, there is no realistic possibility that any one individual can pin them all down and configure them into a rational explanation as to why they believe this and not that.”

Yes, but from a cradle to a grave, more and more reification enter, and the deterministic sphere overcomes gradually with the players of appearent freedoms driven by free will.

That makes sense, because, finally the two spheres almost completely encompass each other.

My point is that determinism is no longer an either or situation, since WW2, when ( and this is the philosophic dynamic behind it, 3 political situations struggled to achieve a solution: social communism, national socialism, and capitalism.

The reduction into logical exclusion, is pairing the communist and socialist framework to defeat the synthetic-national socialism.

That exclusion, absolutely trying to exclude one from the other- reduced socialism and capitalism from an absolute interior national from international perimeters.

The ideal of inferiority of nationalism presented the pure dialectic toward materially relevant conflict between capital and the modes of producing the social antithesis of it.

The search for meaning then, took center stage, utilizing the ideas which would dominate modern philosophy, replacing dialectical European significance, and transferred it to the Victor-the Anglo Saxon apology, which has very little elements of doubt.

It was a transcription of political philosophy toward the question of which process is most significant.

The signifiers became the two surviving competitors, the communist international, and the so called western democratic nations.

Utility and pragmatic function against social dialectical materialism remains arch rivals.

Einstein’s Morality
Ching-Hung Woo looks at the many facets of Albert Einstein’s approach to ethics.

Here we go again, he thought. He being me of course. Is this what folks like peacegirl are aiming to communicate to me? My point then being that we distinguish them only as we were ever able to distinguish them. Given that the human brain is just another necessary component of the laws of nature.

Is anyone at all actually foolish enough to believe in “absolute free will”? This would seem to entail one comprising the only entity in the universe. You and nothing else that could possibly impact on what you think, feel, say and do. On the other hand, in a wholly determined universe as some [compelled or not] posit it, feeling a loss of freedom is just another inherent manifestation of the psychological illusion of freedom.

As though “I” over time and the immediate “I” are somehow two different entities in a universe where “I” is of, by and for nature inside and out. From the cradle to the grave. And then all the way back to star stuff.

And this deepest, most profound, and sacred of cosmic connections, tying us all the way back to elements spanning eons of years of evolution should make us feel gratitude and awe towards the supreme creative powers of the universe.

The constants of life are positioned in exactly such a way that we can be forged. Alter this absolute stunning elegance in physical laws only slightly, and the blueprint for life gets sucked into the black hole of oblivion.

And you would have to think that, 1 day, before the big chill, that we will go back to brane stuff, wouldn’t you say?

Einstein’s Morality
Ching-Hung Woo looks at the many facets of Albert Einstein’s approach to ethics.

Providing of course that nature itself is not seen to be “coercing” everything that has ever been described by anyone at all. And what is most intriguing here is the word “coerce” itself. How can one think of it without imagining some entity able to actually do the coercing? And that would seem to entail a reason to. And that would seem to suggest some purpose behind the reason.

Matter ontologically is one thing. Matter teleologically…is that something else altogether?

The conundrum then comes to revolve for some of us around how and why and when matter was able to reconfigure itself into being conscious of all this in and of itself. It’s like trying to imagine the machines creating the terminators with an intelligence different from the intelligence behind the human minds creating the films.

Back again to this mysterious distinction between nature either coercing or not coercing me to type these words and nature, embodied in my brain, either compelling or not compelling me to type them based on the necessary components embedded in prior causes inherently embedded in the laws of matter.

Where is this distinction pinned dlown definitively?

Determinism = code for god’s will.
Many minds have updated the Abrahamic lingo, making them feel enlightened and progressive…as if they’ve grown out of the childish superstitions of the past.

Nature can also be understood as a one-god, i.e., omnipotent, omnipresent, absolutely ordered, absolutely determining.
It’s Abraham’s god without the anthropomorphism.
No need for the primordial sin narrative, to produce discipline via shame.
Markets take over this role.
A more sophisticated method of control.
Shame before the State, your peers. How to live up to the Jonses; how to be appealing to the majority, selling self as another product.
Poverty is the new shame.

This clarifies the relationship between positive nihilists - with their offering of alternative occult realities - and pure nihilists who apply the formidable power of nil to annihilate all that is displeasing.
One fabricates worlds out of nothing - suing semiotics - and the other exposes the word-game, returning to his indifferent cynicism.
Both ignore the world around them, because most of them are enshrined within cosmopolitan, man-made environments, surrounded by man-made fabrications.
Reality is on the periphery - ignored, forgotten…and still unyielding to human mind games.

Here’s my usual predicament…

I can criticize him yet again for taking the discussion back up into the clouds of abstraction. And yet here and now I’m of the opinion [compelled or not] that he was never able not to.

Ever and always I am back to the gap between what any of us think about this and all that would need to be known in order to be absolutely certain. And, even then, only by assuming that human autonomy does exist in some measure.

Isn’t it basically just another intellectual equivalent of Beckett’s, “I can’t go on. I’ll go on.”

Until a definitive resolution is finally arrived at by scientists and/or philosophers and/or theologians, all we have are speculations of this sort. Some of us [compelled or not] more drawn to or repelled by them than others.

This is it though, isn’t it? As far as we can go.

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

Here what interest me is the gap [if there is one] between Dawkins making his argument and being compelled to acknowledge to himself that he was never able to not make it other than as nature compels it to be made. Or if, instead, there is some component of reality inside his brain/mind that allows him to imagine that this is not the case. After all, what is the point of bringing up our ancestors here when they just like we are all necessarily inherent components of the laws of matter.

Stuck again. To me, this is expressed as though [somehow] we do have some degree of autonomy in making attempts to be attractive to the opposite sex. Otherwise even the argument articulated by Steven Taylor above in regard to this is just one more intrinsic element encompassed in matter doing its thing as the laws of matter compel it to. How in fact can anything we think, feel, say and do escape/transcend its innate, organic destiny? And our ancestors found vistas as they did because their ancestors did going back to the earliest humanoids going back to the first instance of life on earth going back to the manner in which lifeless matter became living matter going back to when and where and how and why matter came into existence itself.

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

On the other hand, the part where we are stuck still revolves around the extent to which these natural interactions explain everything that we think, feel, say and do. Ah, but at least we live in an age where we have accumulated an enormous amount of actual knowledge about these brain functions. And yet the more we know, the more frustrating it is in having to acknowledge all that we don’t know yet. For many, this then thumps into the psychological components of “I” that refuse to accept anything less than that which allows them to insist that what they think they know is what all the rest of us should think we know too.

Yep, that’s the way some see it. But then for folks like me, they were never able to not see it that way. Only folks like me are the first to admit that how we think we see it may or may not be how it actually is. And then the depressing acknowledgment that, in turn, we will tumble over into the abyss that is oblivion. None the wiser.

And, really, how to wrap your head around that?!

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

Some intellectuals, some scientists. Just as some intellectuals, some scientists insist on supporting the opposite conclusion. The impulse however is either more or less under our control. Or is only the illusion of control.

There’s no getting around this for some. We just don’t know if there was literally no getting around it for them. But who hasn’t wished for something like this to explain away a set of circumstances that are pulling them down…that they can then just explain aways as “beyond my control”?

How about the political and economic elite? It is always in their interest to sustain any and all habits that inhibit citizens from actually exercising their political and economic will. And, in the end, don’t we have to roll the dice [compelled or not] and act as though we do have some measure of autonomy. It’s maddening [for some[ not to know for certain, but there it is: the human condition.

All I can come back to here is that only utter fools [in an autonomous world] would/could manage to actually think themselves into believing that the either/or world self is just an illusion.

Of course there is a self here. It eats and drinks and has sex and plays sports and goes to school or work and interacts with others in countless ways that clearly revolve around a substantive and substantial Me.

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

Like that definitively refutes Berkeley’s assumptions. Or, “I think therefore I am”. Like that necessarily excludes someone in a Sim world being programed to think that. Nothing is really either established as true or refuted as false until everything and anything is agglomerated into an explanation for existence itself. Yet even here someone convinced that they are cognizant of this may well be compelled to by someone or something beyond his or her grasp.

This merely takes me back to dreaming. I don’t know about your dreams but in mine “I” am utterly convinced I am confronted with a “variety of choices of thoughts and actions in front of me”.

Last night I dreamed myself back into to a set of circumstances involving an old childhood friend, Roger Rasnake. We were involved in some construction project that we were working on for free. I then insisted that we ought to be paid for what we did. Back and forth we went while continuing to work. Everything was vividly real including my confrontation with others in my family.

Yet the whole “experience” was created entirely in my brain, by my brain…for my brain?

Though, sure, there must be an important distinction between my “I” in that dream and my “I” here and now choosing to types these words rather than others.

But who out there in science, in philosophy, in theology has actually been able to demonstrate it such that there is no other possible explanation but free will in the human species.

Reclaiming Freedom
Steve Taylor says of determinism: “I refute it thus!”

Of course one might note that arguing “all of these factors have some influence on our behaviour” is in itself just another attempt at an all-encompassing explanation. But the fact that so many of us do seem compelled [naturally or not] to fit everything into one overarching account speaks volumes regarding how the brain seems to function. And that makes sense. We go about the business of doing so many different things it’s got to provoke us from time to time into thinking about the existence of something that fits everything together into what in some mental capacity is thought to be an ontological and teleological TOE.

It could be God, it could be nature, it could be something that no one has [so far] even thought of as existing at all.

Then back to this: He [like you and I] have no way in which to determine beyond all doubt that the “conscious self” either embodies or does not embody merely the illusion of free-will. Does nature dictate everything we think, feel, say and do? Or did nature’s matter actually succeed in evolving into an autonomous capacity to question its own existence?

This part:

Sure, maybe. But what is this but one more presumptuous assertion that it is so. How does this particular author go about producing the hard evidence necessary to convince the world that there could be no other explanation?

Or, that, even should someone seem to accomplish this, that this too is not only as it ever could have been?

How would we ever be able to detach ourselves from something we a clearly a part of in order to gain that distance said to be crucial in establishing that much sought after objectivity.