"Inside" Experience

That’s a declaration.

Desiring, anting, willing…and valuing, only apply to life.
To presume that valuing, like willing, is a universal truth, applicable to the non-living, would have to also presume that because you are aware that all existence is aware.
That’s a superstition.

An ashtray has a utility that gives it value to the one that designed it.
If it were made from stone then the stone would acquire value to the designer, because of the need/desire ti was made to satisfy - tis utility.
A stone, not even a gold nugget, has an intrinsic value…unless it is given one by a living organism wanting to build a house with it, or a dam, or wanting to display his quality, his rarity.

The fact that organisms evaluate existence using themselves as a standard, or they value what is part of themselves, is nothing new.
The Christians mystified the term ‘love’ just as you are attempting to do with the term ‘value’…and for the same reasons.

What you fail to do is understand the underlying cause of willing, desiring, and valuing. You stop at the subjective experience…like cogito ergo sum…what is the ‘I’. Valuing, judging, willing is its expression not its essence. It is what differentiate it from other life forms and form the non-living.
It cannot be valuing itself, for this would be circular.
Why and how do lifeforms evaluate existence?
Yes, using themselves as a standard, but what is the underlying cause of this need to evaluate and to will, and to want and to desire?

Isn’t this just kind of a round-a-bout way of saying that by valuing we demonstrate ourselves as valuers? Descartes covered this, so why the emphasis on valuation over thought?

Pedro - What do you mean by “subjective experience”? The reverse of objective object? Identity and difference would seem to be experiential concepts.

Proofs in philosophy require something both immediate and and the loophole of being nebulous and unverifiable.

You can take whatever side you want, although it’s considered disingenuous to argue the nebulous and unverifiable side… a side many posters here use.

What is the immediate part? Self evidential!

It is self evidential that nobody wants their consent violated. Consent is self evidentiary. There is no further regress here. Someone who claims they want their consent violated, would be violated by never having their consent violated. Which still solves (even in the opposite case) that nobody wants their consent violated. It’s not only self evidentiary, it’s a law that non-consent violation is what works for everyone in the ideal.

Since silhouette pointed this out, many other posters here have used it as well, that the phrase “nobody wants their consent violated” solves as a meaningless tautology: “people don’t want what people don’t want” But obviously here, logic is in it’s infancy, because when uttering it’s a meaningless tautology and then gets hit on the foot with a hammer, it’s now the most important thing to them for this phrase to be understood as NOT meaningless. EVERYONE knows exactly what the phrase, “nobody wants their consent violated” means, and it’s disingenuous to call it a meaningless tautology, it is NOT disingenuous to observe that tautologies are not always meaningless, and that logical operators haven’t advanced that far for certain circular (self evident) phrases.

It’s almost like seeing parrots type to each other “circular bad” “tautology bad”… I know they teach that in school, but this is the real world here.

I personally would really like it if people stopped parroting academia and look at these types of exceptions. “A banana is a banana” is an identity statement, all identity statements are tautologies… HOWEVER, there are many meaningful contexts where identity is not a meaningless way to teach about identity in terms of the existence we all share here.

If philosophy is about justifying word-games, then creativity has to be liberated from realism.
Declaring something and claiming ti is brilliant, is a start. It shows a desire, a need…a pathos.
But even a moron can do that.
How will we differentiate the true insight from the mystical manipulation of desire?
Should we use the oracles of Delphi as our muse?
Should we seek inspiration in the Old and New Testament, and its verbal seductions?
Shall we replace ‘love’ with ‘value’ or ‘power’, and declare it something profoundly new?

Let’s do all of that…and more.
Because, I am hungry for the taste of need that has defensively inflated its ego to a theoretical bubble, just begging to be burst.

Need is the most honest expression of self. Desire must hide in pretence.
I see plenty of that on this forum.
My friend was right.

"How will we differentiate the true insight from the mystical manipulation of desire?
Should we use the oracles of Delphi as our muse?
Should we seek inspiration in the Old and New Testament, and its verbal seductions? "

Well, you know, that’s the entire point of philosophy. Not relying on anything outside one’s own capacity to judge.

Look into yourself. before valuing and willing…what is there?
What sparks willing and valuing and desiring and needing?

What is the pattern?
What does the ‘ing’ imply?
Value…ing….will…ing…desire…ing….want…ing….
What does a verb imply?
Before willing, valuing, desiring, wanting,…these are but expressions of a kind of this…
I’m not going to tell you.

Aegean - welcome.

Philosophy begins with minimizing the sort of errors you have made into a habit, no fault of your own most likely - you have been taught by inadequates.

Your beginners approach to written theory shows that valuing is precisely the unconscious part of you - your consciousness is a mere kite in the wind of your valuing;

you already know what you want to be reading before you begin, and only become conscious of those things your valuing lets through into your mind.

Sounds tricky, doesn’t it? It is. Philosophy requires that you shut off a lot of automatisms - of which you aren’t even aware you have them turned on!

So my first instruction to you, if you wish to be my pupil, is : try to finish reading a text (anything - it can be your salt-shakers ingredients label, which should be rather short, or a news-article or a page from a childrens book) and suspending your judgment of what the text means until you have read it completely.

Maybe you can even manage to double down and read it twice, before giving yourself the chance to formulate your interpretation of it.

Seeing as where you stand now, this exercise will be plenty difficult, so take your time.

When you have become acquainted with the haste of your own mind, you can begin to discipline this mind.
If you get as far as that you may begin to approach simple philosophy, like Plato, perhaps even Aristotle. We call these “deductive philosophers”.
We find ourselves in a more advanced age, but still, these ancient men were pretty smart even by comparison to the moderners who have taught you how to think!

Sound like a plan?

Let me quickly address your mistakes.

Of an observation.
Im starting with pure empiricism.

Ah! But I only said that I experience valuing, etc.

You’re running ahead - Im nowhere near close to explaining how I see valuing to apply to all being. Ive only observed, again purely by empiricism, that there is valuing, because I am witness to it by experience.

My experience is of willing (valuing), etc.

And yet, did you know that it has never been formalized into a logical method?

Here, you are simply using your imagination too much.

I will repeat what I made you aware of earlier:

Your beginners approach to written theory shows that valuing is precisely the unconscious part of you - your consciousness is a mere kite in the wind of your valuing;

you already know what you want to be reading before you begin, and only become conscious of those things your valuing lets through into your mind.

Yes, valuing it its own logical cause. It has no physical cause, it is physical cause to all else.

I know the following is a very taxing text, but the whole subject is taxing! Feel free to try and see how far you get in reading this. You can keep your prejudices switched on for now, as there is no way you are ready to read as much without the salt-shaker training.

[tab]

[/tab]

The conscious valuing (selective response, as Ive explained) is merely an extensive form of non conscious selective response.

What is the cause?
Only the fact that nothing stands in its way.

Do you notice what Ive done here?
Why being and no rather nothing? Because nothing stands in its way.

Do you see?
That is how philosophy can, when diligently practiced, show the superstitions underneath our commonly accepted words!

Your master taught you about on type of this…valuing. and he flatter and promised you great things, if only you remained loyal to this one thing.
But a master that wants to remain a master is not one you should follow.
A master, like a father, liberates you from…him, first and foremost. His insights are applicable without his presence, like a good father teaches gis son to be free from his guidance.
any ideology, n matte how pleasing and sempower9ng it feels, that does not offer independence, is a religion…an Abrahamic nihilistic ideology.
A philosophy must be independent form the one that exposed you to it.

“A master, like a father, liberates you from…him, first and foremost. His insights are applicable without his presence, like a good father teaches gis son to be free from his guidance.
any ideology, n matte how pleasing and sempower9ng it feels, that does not offer independence, is a religion…”

Now this is true.

“A philosophy must be independent form the one that exposed you to it.”

However, there is no “a philosophy.” Ehem, there is “philosophy.” Embarrassing as that is to have to say.

“any ideology, n matte how pleasing and sempower9ng it feels,”

Except this part. This part doesn’t make a lot of sense. Also ideology doesn’t offer anything. It is not a thing. That can offer.

“A philosophy must be independent form the one that exposed you to it.”

ought implies can.
-Kant

Can this philosophy be seen separate of me?
Has any philosophy ever been separate of the one who brought it?
N says no, there are no philosophies, only philosophers.

Ideology is what reads this philosophy as an ideology - ideology serves to unthinkingly dismiss. Value ontology dismisses only by reasoning through to the bitter end of non existence, if indeed the case deserves dismissal. Therefore, it is very taxing and why is that valuable? Maybe it is not. Maybe it is merely a woman who can be dismissed. Or maybe it is too valuable to pick up, implying it was available; truth, a woman before whom most men are shy because they cant dance.

This philosophy is the philosophy of power, i.e. will to power sufficient to attain independent ontic status, being. That means that this philosophy is only value-able for people who value the style in which it is presented.

This is what follows from Nietzsche.

What we are overcoming is the notion of personal liberty; what we require to combat the death-forces of technology and liberalism is an order of rank.

Now I may not be worthy as a person of being anyones Master, but my style is perhaps worthy of commanding. Thankfully it is not the only one that is - value ontology itself precludes a monolithic ontos. We are legion, as they say. But we’ve not yet come to know ourselves.

Aegean, you speak from experience and not from presumption.

This is all quite true. But to liberate from what?
I may just liberate you from the idea that philosophy is some kind of clean, objective already-there object to polish and behold. It is more like birth, there is a lot of screaming and yelling, confusion and uncertainty about the outcome but not about the general principle we’re dealing with.

All proper religion, not just Abrahamic religion, is empowering. No one would put faith in a god who doesn’t open doors. All people subscribing to a religion but not feeling empowered are atheists living in shame and fear.

Philosophy on the other hand is simply revealing.
Where you are powerful, revelation feels good. Where you are not, not so much.
Men are mostly, myself included, powerful in some regards and weak in others; the consequences of both are magnified.

Presume there is no point.

I do not believe in pre-establishing points and then reasoning toward them.

I am merely setting out to see, if I observe valuing, where I arrive.

My philosophy has made me interested in valuing as a mechanism.

World vomit can be self-satisfying.

youtube.com/watch?v=T9P1KxVrrWM

How do you know that? Have you read my star chart?

I love the emotional choice of words. I’m sure it has some kind of effect on the minds you seek to exploit…but it has zero effect on me. I am outis.
I know what words are and why you choose those and not others. I know …you.
I was balling and crying and screaming as I posted this. Emotion is your craft and your demise.

True…but the specifics of each religion…or should I more accurately say, ‘spirituality’, exposes the minds that follow it.
Are ou a wannabe shaman?

And what has VO revealed, other than the already established? Life is attracted to elements that are part of itself. Brilliant.
Do you know how…no. you simply stay on the valuing part.
What is new, my friend. You just altered the terminology.
What is new and inspiring in VO?
A modernized Christianity. No…post-modern Judaism, with a bit of Spinoza.

[quote]
Where you are powerful, revelation feels good. Where you are not, not so much.
Men are mostly, myself included, powerful in some regards and weak in others; the consequences of both are magnified.]So humble you’ve suddenly become 160+ IQ.
i never forget…not like these imbeciles.
I recall…because it reveals patterns.
A friendly gesture today, must be juxtaposed to a slap in the past.
Oh, how out of your milieu you are.
Shall we cRap?
Perhaps tell a buddy what a brillant lyricist he is…to keep him around.
Huh?
Let me trace a rune on your arse, dear boy.
It’s magic…I promise.

What are you doing now… it is still honest to a degree but off topic.
Im not interested in your personal affections, I have none for you, which is why I banned you from BTL. You manage to spread an actual bad odour through the internet.

So, can we get back to topic?

Ontology is not about life.

We knew life values.

We didn’t know atoms value.

Valuing equates to love only in an infinitesimal percentage of cases.
Your everlasting romance with idiocy prevents you from following even the first steps I keep repeating.

Why do you think you are here?
Did I invite you ?
Would I ever even address you even in your own home, after you had invited me?
Your arguments are like turds, you shit them out and wonder why no one wants to pick them up.

You pick up my arguments with the same filthy hands which pick up your own to throw it at people who won’t crouch down below you, like the Joker who I presume called you, his eternal father, to help him out because I had bullied him. I hope for your sake that thats the reason and that you didn’t come in here on your own initiative to wallow in your lukewarm shit, because then you are truly lost. Ive never shown you respect. Don’t pretend like you’re here because you respect yourself, or philosophy, you only respect the Joker, I think, because he has a talent you like to have. But you of course make sure he doesn’t capitalize on it. Dumb American basterds.

You know for someone who uses prose and meaningless poetics…you show a distaste for ambiguity not of your own making.

No?
Then why is it self-valuing?
To clouds self-value…do mountains?
Come on…show us what you truly are.

No shit…I thought it was a world alerting insight that would establish you as a thinker on the level of Nietzsche.

Then how do electrons stay in a stable relationship - see the antopomorphic bullshit there- with neutrons?
Do tell.
Do they self-value?

So, self-valuing is not self-loving?
Why not? Because you want to believe you are inventing a new otology?

Such an arrogant cunt, you are.
Ha!!
Yes, and China reads your posts, you imbecile and Peterson was affected by Vo, you moron.
I laughed and laughed…expecting someone to put you in your place…but these brain dead morons were silent before your insanity.

I would be as polite as an eglishman….in your presence.
You would not even know it was me.

Are you not the 160* IQ genius Messiah that will change th course of mankind?
I wanted to be in your presence…before i died…to be in proximity with such insanity.

Listen imbecilic…this crap you’ve ben selling may work on the type of morons like Pezer or those morons on ‘Before the light’ or Sauwie the delicate flower…but you a way over your head here…
That shit don’t fly
May even have a nihilists like Brian giving you the benefit of the doubt, cause h’s only interested in making friends in his post-prison debacle tears…you know those that were determined univerally.

VO this and VO that…you are one obsessive wannabe self-aggrandizing cunt, aren’t you?
This is not the first time you’ve heard this. Is it?