I don't get Buddhism

Prismatic,

This is the last time I’m going to ask. Could you please provide the evidence which substantiates your claim: “The subconscious fear of death is the root cause of all religions.”

If you don’t provide it, then I’m going to assume that you can’t. If you perceive that you already have and it has been missed, could you then summarise your evidential points into a coherent post. Until you do this, it will be difficult to move forward.

What sort of evidence do you need?
I don’t think you know what evidences you are look for in this case.

In any case, I have provided justified argument and sufficient evidences.

Btw, my objective is not to ensure you grasp the whole argument since I am aware you will not be able to do so. My purpose is thus to hope you can offer any refutations from your perspective and hopefully from others as well.

For example, your point ‘human beings do not have instinct’ took me by surprise and I got interested in that because if true could counter my premise which is based on instincts, i.e. primal instincts from the subconscious mind.
Upon further consideration and reading, the point your raised above from Maslow is not significant to my argument.

Do you have any more of such points that could shake the foundation of my premises?

Prismatic,

What I’m asking you for, is information from sources other than yourself, which demonstrate that your claim is valid.

Continually debating this on the basis of what you’ve argued is pointless. Let’s assess how the evidence relates to your claim.

I have given my arguments supported by premises which are true and I have provided loads of external sources with links to support these premises.
Problem is they are too much and beyond your ken and ability to tie them up to the premises. I am not going through them again and wasting time.
If you are not convinced, just let it be.

Prismatic,

Then I guess this is where our discussion draws to a close, as there is no point in continuing on the basis of arguments.

Prismatic,

I would of let it be if you hadn’t of said this;

This sounds like an equivocation. However, I’m not the only interlocutor in this discussion. The other participants will be able to “tie them [the evidences] to the premises”. Or is your claim that no one involved in this discussion can? And seriously, if you can validate such a huge claim with a few clicks, how is that wasting time?

You should consider the possibility that my ability could be more than you’re able to recognise. Arbitrarily deciding that the evidence to support your argument is beyond my “ken and ability”, and therefore not presenting it, is ridiculous.

I thought that you might respond like this, as it was always clear that you were not going to provide the evidence I asked for, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt. If you actually had it, you would of whipped it out faster than if Halle Berry was in your bedroom.

But the actual problem he cannot tie them to it, so he doesn’t do it.

He refers to research, but does not, and actually cannot, demonstrate that what they indicate is his hypothesis is true.

So he blames you for his own inablility to make the full arguments.

And this is after saying that those arguments are proofs - which shows an ignorance of science right off the bat calling them proofs - but is shirking his responsibility as the person with a hypothesis.

It is beyond his ken to tie together what he thinks is obvious.

And it is rude for him to blame you for his own failings.

And the reason he can’t make an actual coherent argument is in part because the evidence does not support his hypothesis and if fact there is more evidence that other things are the primary causes of religion.

KT,

You provide a more rounded summary which I agree with. In future, take my silence as an agreement. I will only comment on your posts if there is something I disagree with or really feel the need to say something. If I keep saying that you’re right, it will be perceived as a bias :slight_smile: .

This is crucial.

I am not here to provide a totally coherent and detailed argument which will take a lot of my time.
So far I have provided information up to the limit I am willing to go.
I have intention to write a book on it where I will provide the full information.

Note that this was stated after Prismatic was asked to provide the evidence which validates his claim.

“Is The Buddhist ‘No-Self’ Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?”
Katie Javanaud asks whether there is a contradiction at the heart of Buddhism.

Clearly we have to be wary of arguments in which the conclusions are predicated by and large on the premises. Especially when the premises themselves are constructed almost entirely out of the definitions and the meaning assigned to the words.

And which of the four points above is the exception to that rule? The logic is sound because one is expected to agree with the definitions used to give meaning to the words.

Always coming back [in religious narratives] to the most fundamental premise of all: The existence of God and/or Enlightenment.

The only thing missing of course is an actual moment to moment description of this unfolding as one goes about choosing behaviors. It is all just taken for granted that in relation to the conclusion derived from the premises above it’s how it, uh, works.

Completely obviating the need to make any distinctions at all between the either/or me and the is/ought me. It’s all at one intellectually with the impermanence of the self itself.

Next up: the argument from control…

And of course this is a valid option. To not write something complete. But then one should not also present what one has written as ‘proofs’, nor should one say one has refuted all counterclaims and critique when one has not. I think the arguments have large missing steps, even when compared to other arguments made here, but it is perfectly reasonable to stay with something more like an opinion essay. However these can actually be more solidly written and certain do not constitute proofs. And his approach to dialogue has no, in general, show an ability to interact with counter-ideas - since he tends to simply reassert or dismiss - nor to acknowledge anything counter to his ideas as having any validity. Which puts him not only at odds with scholars in the fields he claims final knowledge in - which doesn’t mean he’s wrong but needs to be dealt with - but also makes him a less than adequate discussion partner - to a degree that leads me to think that discussion is not really the goal, lecturing is.

“Is The Buddhist ‘No-Self’ Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?”
Katie Javanaud asks whether there is a contradiction at the heart of Buddhism.

I think this is an important point in and of itself. How close or how far is Buddhism from the “common discourse” that seems to sustain human interaction from day to day? Obviously, this is far more a subjective/intersubjective social, political and economic contraption as it pertains to living the “good [virtuous] life” here and now; and pertaining to the fate of “I” there and then beyond the grave. But there are still many, many things we either can or cannot alter [control] about ourselves that are applicable to all mere mortals regardless of their religious or spiritual bent. We share these things in common. Starting with the need to sustain our very existence from day to day and ending with the behaviors we choose that may well result in our ceasing to exist altogether.

The “human condition” that we are all a part of.

All we need to assume here is that human autonomy is an actual thing.

This is precisely the sort of assessment that [to me] amounts to intellectual gibberish when attempts are made to describe in detail how it unfolds for a particular person in a particular context choosing particular behaviors. Here there are specific things about our self that dissatisfy us for specific [personal] reasons embedded in our understanding of a specific set of circumstances. We either have or do not have options to change those things.

Instead, where “I” becomes increasingly more problematic is when that which comes to dissatisfy us, is thought by others to be something that, on the contrary, ought to satisfy us very much. This can revolve around the food we eat or the music we listen to or the films we like or the values we choose that precipitate behaviors deemed to be either the right or the wrong thing to do.

The latter of course precipitating the most profound consequences in our lives. “I” here becomes attached to conflicting moral and political narratives that can result in any number ghastly newspaper headlines as some strive to propel the behaviors of others in a direction they are convinced reflects the only “right thing to do”.

“Is The Buddhist ‘No-Self’ Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?”
Katie Javanaud asks whether there is a contradiction at the heart of Buddhism.

Of course when you are dealing with the concept of things like “Nirvana” or “no-self”, you are largely embedded [or even entrenched] in a discussion of definitions.

In a world of words, you argue [or assert] that they mean this instead of that. And, depending on whether others share your own definition of what these words are argued [or asserted] to mean, you either do or do not come to an agreement.

That way you don’t have to take the definitions used to concoct the concepts any further than what you think is true in your head.

There is then no need to demonstrate that this Nirvana actually does exist; or to take us to it; or to note how those who have reached it choose to interact from day to day; or to contrast that with the options available to us on this side of mortality.

Then this part of the “concept”.

Here of course to ask “what on earth does this mean?”, is entirely obviated. Instead, all is subsumed in the sophistic manner in which some are able to convince themselves that given their own understanding of the assumptions embedded [if only conceptually] in their own rendition of Buddhism, Nirvana is “out there” or “up there” somewhere.

And if this allows them emotionally and psychologically to sustain a comforting and consoling frame of mind all the way to the grave, well, that’s just icing on the cake.

“Is The Buddhist ‘No-Self’ Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?”
Katie Javanaud asks whether there is a contradiction at the heart of Buddhism.

Got that? Okay, now, in plain English, describe one’s actual day to day existence having reached Nirvana. No-self in what sense? Really, any descriptive details at all will be helpful.

Or, instead, is the whole point to entirely rid yourself of such mundane obligations. You merely “think” yourself into imagining the farthest possibly reality from the one you have now. And, if it makes you feel a comforting combination of equilibrium and equanimity, you’ve already managed to embody a semblance of it on this side of the grave.

Nihilism [like Buddhism, like Nirvana, like nothingness, like liberation] is a word that was invented to “capture” a particular manner in which we come [as individuals] to order relationships in our head. But without a context it all just evaporates in to these mental, emotional and psychological states. Nihilism pertaining to what?

Until and unless Nirvana can be substantiated in a way that we can relate it to the self interacting on this side of the grave, it can [conveniently] remain whatever we think it is. That way if another argues it is actually the way she thinks it is instead, you can both walk away convinced your own rendition comes closest. After all, there is nothing “out there” you can turn to resolve such conflicts.

It’s basically just another “spiritual” rendition of God and Heaven. In other words, tailor-made for leaps of faith.

Once again, substantively, these are “alternatives” only in a narrative sense. The stories are different but there is no way in which to either verify or falsify either one. The only thing being described are the words themselves. Ever and always connected only to other words. Dueling definitions over and over and over again. With practically nothing of an empirical nature to show for it.

The no-self self then becomes just another ghost in the machine.

Unlike Hinduism, which is a religion proper and presents an ontology, buddhism is only a process. It does not intend to answer questions, it only describes instructions for following a path.

To meditate on questions of “self” and permanence is detrimental to following that path and therefore to be avoided.

That is not to say that there is a self, or no-self, or both, or neither. Neither it is to say that one must not think about those things.
It is simply to warn that these questions lead to attachment, and attachment leads to suffering.

This is why when posed with these questions, Buddha did not answer in any way, and instead chose to be silent.

There are a lot of Buddhisms and for some it this description obviously does not work, right off the bat. But, really, all of them have some kind of implicit or explicit ontology. It is pretty much impossible to avoid having one. The Four Noble Truths include an ontology or set of ontological ideas. What must happen, why it happens, what causes it to happen, how to extricate yourself from this causal pattern, all based on what is consider the being of life.

There are plenty of pretty straighforward ontological ideas in and around all this: Whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation, for example.

There are ontological concepts of course, but their goal is not to present a complete, coherent model of reality. It does not aim to resolve existential questions. It asks you to let go of them.

Though there are ontological concepts where it is required in order to describe the process, there is no complete ontology because it deliberately stops short of answering those questions, for the reasons above.

Naturally that does not work for some, for many even. I do not think that buddhism is for everyone.

Or one could say…to justify it. But this same justification, explaining, means that other ontological ideas are not necessary. Not saying that’s bad, just that it does end up staking an ontological position against, for example, many of the HInduisms. Like, you really don’t have to think about any of the gods. Why not? Well, whatever the implicit or explicit answer is an ontological position. Likewise when going against everyday conceptions of reality.

No, it’s not. You’d have to want the goal, with its implicit disidenfitications with emotions and self, for example.

My instinct is that Buddhism and Hinduism are one and the same, that Buddhism is an abbreviation of Hinduism.

Stop me if I am speaking nonsense.