These are not universal truths...

Yep.

But that’s corporal biggs alas. Though I’d almost certainly be just a buck private in the Faustian army of serious philosophers.

You know, before they court martialed me.

:laughing: and/or :wink:

iam - you just don’t fuckin’ get it. The existence of the 2nd amendment is not an “objective truth.” That’s because “objective truth” is a bullshit phrase. I started out in this thread making this claim, essentially. If you’d like to argue that there is such a thing as an objective truth, then please define it and state your case.

This is just more of your passive-aggressive dishonesty. You know that I do not acept that “objective truth” has any useful meaning, yet you ask me if something is an objective truth.

That’s just fuckin’ stupid.

This has got nothing to do with philosophy, serious or otherwise. It’s just stupid.

Objective / universal truths are items that are true for all Possible beings!

There is one for sure that exists: no being wants their consent violated.

Here’s what iambiguous keeps dodging:

We can know for a fact that existence is ‘immoral’, if a beings consent is being violated.

As is the current case. This is the antithesis of purpose.

The question then becomes, “will it always be that way?”

If we can prove that it will, we can define existence from an ethics standpoint as ‘immoral’.

That’s a factual, objective, universal answer that’s all true by definition.

We know CURRENTLY that existence is ‘immoral’ (it likely isn’t sentient - which is why I put the word immoral in quotes), we may be able to prove it will always be that way, and be able to prove that it is ALWAYS ‘immoral’

This is how ethics and philosophy is done. We look at the limits and examine the argument from there.

I’ve taken it a step further by explicating a logically consistent moral non zero sum, non consent violating alternative (hyperdimensional mirror realities). If existence never becomes this, then we can easily assert that existence is inherently and unalterably ‘evil’.

What do we do with that knowledge?

None of you have made the case yet that universal ethics are impossible. I just told you what you need to prove to make that case; that consent violation is going to happen no matter what.

So, if someone takes you to the National Archives Building in Washington DC, and you see the actual U.S. Constitution containing the Second Amendment, that’s not an example of an “objective truth”?

Okay, then define what you construe to be an “objective truth” here and explain how in reference to this particular context “objective truth” is a “bullshit phrase”.

I would define an objective truth as a particular thing or relationship able to be demonstrated as true for all of us given the extent to which it can be demonstrated in turn that in the either/or world it exists in sync with the laws of matter.

Excluding those scenarios out on the very end of the metaphysical limb. Those more surreal realities revolving around sim worlds and dream worlds and solipsism and matrixes. Matrixes with “oracles”.

And, in turn, conflicting goods embedded in dasein out in the is/ought world.

Assuming we have some measure of free will, we can opt for the Second Amendment being true for all of us. So, when someone asks me if the existence of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is an objective truth, I say that, yes, in the world that I live in here and now it can be demonstrated to exist. But all of this is still embedded in the gap between what I think I know now and all that can be known about…everything?

Note to others:

What do you make of this? What [no doubt highly technical] point do I keep missing?

No, what is just fuckin’ stupid [to me] is how over and again I keep asking you to take your definition of “objective truth” out into the world of conflicting goods. The part where different individuals hold different opinions about what is true and the part where out in this world these differences of opinions precipitate behaviors that clash and lead to all manner of terrible consequences. Something that a whole lot of people would conclude is just another example of an objective truth in our world.

How then given your own definition of objective truth do you explain why this assertion is not to be construed by others as your own rendition of an objective truth?

And how in reacting to this seething – childish? – fulmination of yours are we to differentiate an objective truth from a universal truth?

Well, you asked.

The ‘highly technical point’ as you sarcastically put it…

If people here started talking about subjective facts, say, and I thought that was not coherent. And I said that wasn’t coherent

It would be bizarre for someone to ask me to give an example of a subjective fact.

It would also be very hard to demonstrate that it’s incoherent since I don’t know what that phrase means. Maybe if one of the people who use that phrase will give me a definition

I could then potentially revise my sense it is incoherent
or
I could show how their definition doesn’t make any sense.
or
I could ask for clarification.

The people who think a phrase makes sense are the ones who have an onus to show how it is used, what it means.

That’s not seroius philosophy. That’s common sense.

If someone says eating fish can give you glajopisp.

I might say ‘that’s not a word.’ It would be up to them to show me that it is a word. I could be convinced, though I’d be fucking surprised. But that’s how two people need to talk to each other when one person thinks X is not coherent and the other person thinks it is coherent. The latter person starts. The latter person gives an example. The latter person defines.

This is basic thinking. Not serious thinking. Not academic thinking.

Just plain old obvious.

Person A: There’s a duck in the house.
Person B: I don’t see any duck.
A: Let me show you.

Not
A: prove to me there’s no duck in the house.

Here, after three pages you finally take a stab at definining universal and objective truths. There are all sorts of problems with your definition, but good. You actually did what you could have done much earlier. Because

FAUST CAN*T DO THAT since he thinks it makes no sense.

Anyway, you say things are true. Things might be real or not, exist or not. But it’s statements that are true or not.
Your old ridiculous ‘everyone would be able to agree on’ criterion makes no sense. Shit, I’m a pretty smart guy, but there are all sorts of things physicists and neuroscientists and probably carpenters and certainly programmers could not demonstrate TO ME AND LIKELY MANY OTHERS were true. There are other problems with that idea.
Another problem with your definition is that is shows a lack of understanding of epistemology in science. If something is repeatedly observed, in controlled conditions, scientists will question their models and laws. Something does not have to fit with what we think are the natural laws to be consider real. Note, again, considered real, not some thing being considered true.

If you are feeling the urge to mention Will Durant’s complaint about epistemologists or say that I haven’t solved the problem of gun control, let me stop you right there.

This issue AS DISCUSSED HERE was important to YOU. You presented an abstract definition of an idea that you thought was important enough to pester FAUST about for pages.

Perhaps after this fundamental issue of language use is solved we could move on to other topics. But don’t be your usual ass and fly off on some long diatribe as the humble non-academic philosopher surrounded by disconnected people.

Your responses to FAust here show a lack of fundamental common sense. They are actually loopy. I am sure he knows English is your mother tongue, but his question is actually a fair one given how idiotic your demands were in this thread.

Hey Faust, youve got to look at this in terms of pure will to power logic. The man is a troll, in the sense of operating on a logic around triggers, knowledge of what triggers people into posting. He has found a way to do this in a philosophical environment, he has been able to trigger philosophers. The more challenging and cool question is not: what can I say to make him understand some basic ideas which are useful in an attempt at logical thought, but what is it that his type of questioning triggers in philosophizers.

What is it, really?
What does he ask?

How can things be explained in terms of Dasein, and how can things be put in a context of the question after being in terms of Dasein.

In the meantime, he is cultivating, like a gardener, threads with media from other sources, which might be said to be a form of online Dasein.

So he uses different methods to generate internet activity around himself and applies both methods (trolling and sourcetag cataloguing) with relentless consistency, never opting for the intellectual integrity of a debate, always going for the trigger of causing exasperation - his integrity lies elsewhere. His integrity is in his method to refer to his own previous existence. This is a form of internet-Dasein, and he is making all who engage him part of it.

Dasein was called an Epoch of Truth - a clearing in the woods of the Lacanian Real, and I am the dweller on the threshold, or the spirit of the forest.

What on earth are you talking about here?!

Subjective facts? No, my aim is to make a distinction between objective facts [truths] in regard to the conflicting goods swirling around the Second Amendment above, and subjective opinions in regard to what those facts tell us about moral narratives and political agendas that aim to either prescribe or proscribe actual human behaviors out in the world we live and interact in.

The manner in which we differentiate coherent from incoherent assessments in that discussion.

As that relates to the manner in which Faust claims to understand objective truth and then differentiates that from universal truth.

Instead, as he does, you keep it all up on the intellectual contraption skyhooks.

Next up: Ducks!!!

I’m sorry, but…huh?!!

There is either a duck in the house or there is not. If the house is searched and one is found is that or is that not an objective truth? Note the manner in which you understand the meaning objective/universal truth technically and tell us.

So, the duck is found and Jane says, “let’s have him for dinner.”
But John is aghast. “It’s immoral to eat animals!”

How then does the understanding of objective/universal truth then shift to accommodate this new context?

Really, imagine human interaction in which things and relationships are discussed and someone argues that it makes no sense to define the meaning of words? I must not be understanding you. In any event, my point is to distinguish between the meanings that we give to words in particular contexts [in the either/or world] that are able to be demonstrated as true for all of us – the meaning of duck, house, see, show, eat, etc. – and our reaction to those words when the discussion shifts and they are used in confronting conflicting goods.

“Is it okay to eat the duck in the house we see after you showed it to us?”

The duck is in the house. That’s real, that is something that does exist.

I therefore state that, “the duck is in the house.” So, philosophically, let’s make a gigantic distinction between the two?

Meanwhile I want to focus more on the actual existential distinction between those who want to eat the duck and those who refuse to let them. Defined or not, where is the objective truth here?

Everyone can agree that the duck is in the house if it is able to be established that in fact the duck is in the house. Stating that it’s true the duck is in the house doesn’t change that. If you are instead making an entirely different point, sure, I might [technically] still be missing it. But what is going to generate the greater use value and exchange value for philosophers, your point or mine?

When, for example, the discussion shifts [as it does this time of the year] between eating or not eating the turkey in the house? Quibble all you want about the empirical truth of the matter contra the epistemological truth embedded in stating what is true. But my emphasis will always be on the fact that however someone defines or claims to understand objective truth in the either/or world things change dramatically when we shift to conflicting goods in the is/ought world.

But then we know where Faust and his ilk will take the exchange:

Again, provide us with a context here such that a discussion of objective truth is able to pin down things that are in fact true for all of us versus things that someone claims to be true based on what she thinks she understands about a situation in her head.

You have told me how you solve it. As a pragmatist. Only my own pragmatism is embedded far more in the assumption I make here:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values “I” can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction…or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then “I” begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

In recognizing that new experiences, new relationships and access to new ideas may well reconfigure my own sense of self in the is/ought world, I am not able to make the part about being fractured and fragmented go away. You seem able to take your own existential leap and feel satisfied enough with this that the part about contingency, chance and change simply doesn’t reach the point where you feel the same sort of splintered “I”.

No, I offered the Faust the opportunity to take his scholastic assessment of objective/universal truth out into the world of actual conflicting goods. Re the issue of gun control. The focus that is of most importance to me.

Given what context?

He [and you] will either take your accumulating abstractions here out into the world that we live and interact in or you won’t.

Or we can just agree to disagree about who has accomplished or not accomplished what in that regard.

Now, let’s see how long we can go before you shift the focus from my idiotic demands to me being the fucking idiot period.

Free-Will is both Freedom-From and Freedom-To. “Freedom-From” means Physical limitations, and it is the basis for which all comparisons are made. To be strong, you have to start with a weight that you can lift, compared to what you cannot lift. What is your limit? People want to be “free-from” physical limitations. Instead of being limited to lifting 20 pounds, I want to lift 200 pounds. I want to lift 2000 pounds. The more I can lift, the ‘freer’ I am claimed to be. “Freedom-To” is the “metaphysical” aspect, you may interpret. I think Philosophy and the 21st Century is still discovering and learning about “Freedom-To”. It represents imagination and creativity. It represents choices and options.

Politically, it means that one class or group of people is “free-to” engage in this activity, or enjoy these comforts, but others (like a lower class) are not.

There are many ramifications of “free-to”.

Iam - the U. S. Constitution is not an “objective truth”. Thre are no examples of objective truth. I dunno how many times I have to say it before you have the remotest idea of my position. There is therefore nothing to bring out to your world of conflicting goods. There is no definition to place in a context.

Nearly everyone you’ll meet (depending upon where you go) will agree that the Constitution “exists”. But not in the Archives. That’s an iteration of the Constitution. But for present purposes, we can agree that it exists. That piece of paper is not a trurth of any kind. It’s a piece of paper. This may sound quite arcane but it’s the only way to avoid metaphysics. Believe it or not.

You and I would both accept that the statement “The U. S. Constitution exists” is true (given my qualifications about existence, which we are setting aside.)

So, we agree that this statement is true. That’s all there is. A claim to truth that we (and a shitload of other people) agree is true. There is no question of universal truth here. And the Constitution itself is not a truth of any kind.

The Second Amendement is not true. It’s not false. “People shall bear arms” is not the same as “People do bear arms.”

The number of language confusions, conflations, and misuses in this thread is just unbelievable. I’m sure it could all get straightened out if everyone actually cared to try. But where is the fun in that?

Meanwhile can I ask about this term…

Is that the same as “conflicting values”?

And if so isn’t there a values expert on the board - that “Value Ontology” guy?

Perhaps he could straighten out what conflicting values has to do with objective truths (whatever “objective truths” is supposed to mean).

Okay, yeah, thank you, I am the “value ontology guy”, where by the way Ive renamed it into “valuator logic”.
Anyway, it would be great if anyone here was actually trying to get to the bottom of any question, but, as I showed in my post above, that is not why people are here, that, as you yourself seem to realize very well, is not why it is being asked.

It is being asked because it confuses these people, and it is meant to keep confusing these people.
And to be fair people here generally prefer being confused over being clear minded.

The question that lies here for those not prepared to bury their faces in a morons shit is rather why is it being asked. But I already gave the answer to that.

It’s quite believable, and it’s a delightful spectacle to behold. One must learn not only to love the epistemological chaos, but also thrive in it.

I ask that you do not disturb anything and just let them roll with it.

No universal truths? Hold your breath and stop breathing, see how long you live without oxygen. :sunglasses:

Ambiguo wins, having correctly estimated your intelligences.

“its a universal truth that there is a cat in the house on 75439 Elm Street”

:confused:

Sounds a little more interesting but seems like that would just be subjectivity or subjective logic.

As you seem to be a theorist, is it your theory that this sort of disingenuous language banter continues because people enjoy creating the confusion (inspiring hopelessness) or because they enjoy being confused themselves (seeking hopelessness)?

And since you are probably going to respond with “both”, how can you tell when it is which?

I challenge everybody in this thread that doesn’t believe in universal truths to stop breathing. :sunglasses:

If you successfully don’t die I will concede that there are no universal truths.

Who will be our first volunteer? Upload a video of yourself with this project or didn’t happen. :sunglasses:

How about you Faust? Lead by example. :sunglasses:

I’m going to recap my posting history here in this post.

I state that universal truths are true for all POSSIBLE beings, and being true for all POSSIBLE beings, that makes universal truths TRANSCENDENT; they are universal and objective, they exist universally.

Does such a truth exist?

Yes. No being wants their consent violated. This is true by definition. Or as Fixed Cross put it; all bachelors are unmarried.

What’s the exception? A being that’s consent is violated unless their consent violated. The only way you can violate the consent of such a being, is to not violate their consent… which STILL means that non-consent violation is a law.

No, it is a complex logical operation involving honesty as a subjective element.
Honesty is absent in all other logic. There are no proper grounds, no starting points.
Its a very difficult practice to master, only a handful of people have mastered it in the 8 years Ive worked with it, but you are welcome to try.
beforethelight.forumotion.com/t1 … e-ontology

The point in general is distraction. Seeking validation in things which offer no resistance. Decadence, weakness, despair.
Some enjoy creating the confusion (Iambiguous) and these are slightly higher on the ladder than those who enjoy to indulge in the created confusion.

As I see it, Iambiguous is their “owner” in as far as he manages to seduce them to partake in his hollow antics.

The ingenious liar is the creator of confusion, sought out by the less ingenious ones.

Per valuator logic, we see Iambiguous manages to value the lesser ones in terms of his own aims; they are horses pulling his cart, food on his plate.
The lesser ones have no power to set aims for themselves here, they are compulsively trying to make it seem to themselves like they are masters of the situation (which tolerates no master except the liar who produced it) by “winning the debate” or “showing their superior understanding” yet there is no conviction in it - they are just addicted to the pattern. If they were motivated by philosophical considerations they’d obviously not engage someone who is asking blatantly nonsensical questions, but might seek for meaningful questions to ask themselves.

But this, asking meaningful questions, is what they are avoiding at all cost, and they are grateful to Iambiguous for presenting them with another distraction in which they can lose their energy without fear it might return to them in the form of some insight.

Why is man afraid of insight?
Thats a real question.