I don't get Buddhism

What is your perspective?
I don’t see you have a justified perspective at all.

To abduct a possible hypothesis you need to study and be familiar with all variables of the topic, if not, as many as possible, to extract patterns that you can model from to extract a possible hypothesis.
You have not shown any evidence you are doing the above. If so, where?

From the tons of work and time spent I am confident I have done sufficient to have a great conviction to my hypothesis and finding.
Note at all times I have provided evidence, examples, analogies, arguments, etc. to justify my position and you have got given any convincing counter to them.

To maintain intellectual integrity I have taken efforts to ensure there is no confirmation bias which is more noticeable from you than from me.

What is reality?
Reality is whatever is real and true empirically and philosophically.
What is inferred is from what is justified empirically and philosophically.

In the case of confirmation bias, you have to show I have deliberately deny what is proven to be real and true, which I have not done so.
If you are convinced I am ignorant of something, that is not confirmation bias, then in this case you will have to bring to my attention on what I am ignorant of and justify that is a truth I have omitted.

Btw, what would it take or for me to prove to you [or others] to accept the claim that the ideology of Islam is "anti-Non_Muslim?

Prismatic,

I have argued my perspective. I didn’t claim that it was justified, but I do believe that I am justified, in debate with you, in saying that all religions are not based upon the subconscious fear of death. I don’t believe you have demonstrated that it is. Given the diversity of the subject, substantiating such a broad claim as you are making is problematic.

I think we can agree that religions are based upon people’s belief in deities. If you want to make a claim (as you have) as to why people believe in deities, or have religious beliefs you have to consider all of the different possible variables (and there will likely be variables that you aren’t aware of), and reflect upon how they can influence a person. To posit one root cause, as you have done, is based upon how you interpret things and how you prioritise things in your way of thinking - which, like everyone, is influenced by your biases. There is no necessity for anyone to agree with you, or for anyone to have to justify disagreeing with you, because what you are claiming, is not a fact.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. You have interpreted that all religions are based upon the subconscious fear of death. You have rejected all other possible variables (and arguments) and created a hypothesis which is based upon what you think. You are now, for some reason acting as though it is a fact. You should reflect upon your own methods of how you reached your conclusion. I don’t need to have read extensively to debate this subject with you.

Are you claiming that there is only one way to interpret the “evidence and examples” you have provided, or that your interpretation of them is the correct one? If so, why? None of the excerpts claim that the subconscious fear of death is the cause of all religions. How can they then be “evidence and examples”?

That’s possible, where I have shown confirmation bias?

That is just one of many perspectives - don’t you realise that? Some people have justifications for their beliefs, and not all beliefs are religious. You may not agree with them, but that doesn’t automatically mean you are right. I would expect you to realise that.

No I don’t. There is no substantive evidence that religion is based upon the subconscious fear of death. You have interpreted that it is. Your justification despite your “evidence and examples” is your interpretation of them. The links and excerpts you have provided do not claim that all religions are based upon the subconscious fear of death, you are interpreting them as confirming what you believe. Like your excerpt pertaining to the fear of public speaking, which you reduce to the subconscious fear of death. Your interlocutors have argued reasonably, that there are other possibilities, but you reject them because they do not agree with what you interpret. You are looking for things which agree with what you interpret, rebuffing counter claims rather than considering how they affect your claim, and if you find something that you interpret as agreeing with you, you claim it is evidence and believe that this gives you a justification. This, is confirmation bias.

I have presented a summary of human life at the fundamental level to KT above [with some changes], which is as follows;

There are two sub-purposes embedded in the DNA, i.e.

  1. To produce the next generation via procreation.

  2. To enable 1, all humans has to avoid death to live,

  3. To avoid death, all humans are programmed with many strategies, one of them is to the fear of death.

  4. This program is activated within the subconscious mind because it is nature’s way of not relying on the human conscious mind to achieve 1.

  5. Nature’s way is to rely on the efficiency of large numbers to increase it chances.

In 3, the various strategies besides the subconscious fear of death are, all humans are programmed with the following other strategies;

  1. To breathe,
  2. To eat via hunger drive, pangs,
  3. Fight or flight, freeze
  4. To ensure physical security
  5. ??

The religious thoughts and activities of the religious can only be reduced to the above and I don’t see anything else.
Can you think of anything else or possible?

The most likely root cause for religion is driven by the subconscious fear of death as justified by acts, thoughts and evidence from the authorized texts of the respective religion.
In addition, the subconscious fear of death is very explicitly dealt with in the core of Buddhism as in the Buddha Story followed by its core principles and practices.

I cannot see how the root cause of religion is driven directly by hunger, need to breathe, need of physical security,

If a person is prevented from breathing, eating, put into an insecured position, the fear of death circuit will be triggered and subsequently pains and mental anguished.

Thus the most likely root cause for religion is driven by the subconscious fear of death.

The other set of fundamental strategies are those related to procreation which is the sex drive and its associated impulses. I don’t think this the root that drive the majority to religions.

I have not come across any counter other possibilities from others that I have not challenged successfully.
If so, what other possibilities. I would be very interested to know them since I would not want to leave any challenges against my thesis unchallenged.

Prismatic,

Trying to pinpoint the root cause of religious belief is dependant on the perspective you are viewing it from. For a theist, the root cause of religion is a deity. I am agnostic, I don’t have a fixed view upon the root cause for religion. I believe that there could be many causes. Therefore, in this latest version of your thesis, I don’t think that I can contribute without committing to a belief system which I am not a part of. I see people as consisting of more than you posit on a fundamental level. For example, I am of the inclination (not belief) that there is a part or aspect of a person which is transcendent, something which is commonly described as a soul. Which is incongruent with what you propose. Or for instance, I place value on gut feeling or intuition, and feel this is fundamental to human-beings, which is also incompatible with your thesis. Therefore, I cannot offer my opinion on this subject without going down a road that I don’t really believe in. Or (how do I put it), thinking in a way that I don’t agree with.

Choice?

Hm, what are you attempting to do here, on this forum?

“Is The Buddhist ‘No-Self’ Doctrine Compatible With Pursuing Nirvana?”
Katie Javanaud asks whether there is a contradiction at the heart of Buddhism.

Ever and always: it depends on the context. The extent to which you detach “I” from the “real me” and achieve a greater measure of “non-attachment” may constitute the optimal frame of mind for any particular individual in one set of circumstances viewed in a particular way. But in the same set of circumstances viewed in an entirely different way, another individual may well find it anything but preferable to embody “non-attachment”.

Again, though, we would need to explore this by noting a specific context in which the attached or detached “I” is compelled to choose particular behaviors for particular reasons resulting in particular consequences.

If you find yourself in a situation that involves, say, reacting to a close friend who is about to be deported as an “illegal immigrant”, how attached to or detached from an actual existential self might you be? How does being a Christian or a Buddhist or an atheist make any difference here?

That’s the point where I introduce dasein.

We can subscribe to any number of claims “in our head” as without contradiction. After all, here, all we need to do is just believe it. But it doesn’t make the world where others around you believe very, very different things go away. If you are that immigrant about to be uprooted from loved ones and sent packing back to Guatemala, it may be considerably more difficult to detach “I” from the actual reality of the flesh and blood self here and now.

You can go back in Guatemala, re-detach from the self there, live the good life, and maybe in the next life you will be reincarnated as a white baby in America?

Seriously though how close has any Buddhist come to actually explaining how this does work for all practical purposes?

Isn’t it just another “leap of faith”?

I know, right? Eight-fold path my ass. The only path on this dude’s mind is the path back to Guatemala. And securing super-galactic omnipresent oneness is the least of his problems. This guy’ll be lucky if he secures a good seat on the bus.

My approach is trying to be as objective as possible.

The majority of people are theists proclaiming the existence of a real deity, for many, such as God, Who will listens and answers their prayers.

Let’s take a real look at the theist as a physical person praying to his God with hope of a favor or whatever.
Let say, a theist is praying to his god in a room and independent observers [theists and non-theist] are observing what is going on within room.
Objectively, independent observers will not see the god the theistic-person prayed to anyway.
What the observers observe is merely a physical human being ‘praying’ to his god.

On the question of God, the theists will have their theistic views. Agnostics like you will have a different set of views. Non-theists will have their non-theistic views.

However I believe it would be more effective to put the above aside and focus instead on what is really real, i.e. the theists as a physical human being performing a prayer.

Since what is really real is the physical human being performing a prayer to god, we need to find out in full details on the praying theists as a human being physically and mentally.

As we are aware, there are already scientific knowledge of the theistic person as a physical human in full details deep down to his genes, i.e. the Human Genome.
Science has already discovered the mechanical process of how the body part and cells worked except the last frontier, i.e. how the 100 billion neurons each with up to 10,000 connectors works. Even then we already know quite a bit of how the neurons works albeit not 100%.
Science has already uncovered a lot of the mental processes and psychology of the human self, the primal brain, the mid-brain and the later neo-cortex.

It is within the confined of the above empirical evidences that I infer how the theistic person praying to a god for favor is confined to the neural processes.
The reasons for the emergence of the idea of God and why theists believe in god has to be found within the confinement of human biology and psychology.

Therefore we need to exhaust whatever knowledge of the physical and mental elements of the human being before we even venture to speculate there exists a god that is external to the physical human being.

I have already shown with evidences and arguments how the idea of God emerged from the subconscious fear of death within the confinement of the physical person as the most likely grounds of theism.

At present we know relatively very little [say a minority] of the function of the brain and how all the neurons of the brain. This is an ongoing process at,
The Human Connectome Project
humanconnectomeproject.org/

It is very irrational to ignore the unknown majority of knowledge which can possibly be known in the future and jump to the conclusion God exists which is not justified and unreliable. This what theists do, the ignore the possible knowledge, because psychologically the subconscious fear of death drive them to jump to a conclusion to soothe the existential pains.

Therefore the question of the grounds of religions and theism is not valid nor recommendable to be said to ‘depend on perspective’.
Rather it has to be dependent of a perspective that is objective based on the empirical and philosophical basis.

Presenting a thesis or hypothesis and inviting challenges [questioning] is the mainstay of any philosophical forums, such as this one. Note,

Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions, since no definite answers can, as a rule, be known to be true, but rather for the sake of the questions themselves;
-Bertrand Russell

I am not claiming what I had presented is final, rather it is subjected to the possibility of questions.

As usual you are ignorant of Buddhism-proper and how it is to be applied properly, that caused you to come to the above silly conclusions.

Note the point re the Contradiction of ‘Self’ and ‘No Self.’

As far as the secular individual is concerned, we can not live in the absolute level of reality that has the characteristic or the true nature of the “empty self” or “no-self.”
In our worldly lives, we can not live in the absolute level of non-dualism and indiscrimination.

The aim of mindfulness practice for secular people is not to transcend the cycle of life and death that is proclaimed by Buddhism as a religion [not Buddhism proper].
Instead, the significance of internalizing and integrating the essence of Buddhist psychology organically into one’s self-system lies in enlightening the mind to wisdom such as non-attachment, letting-go to alleviate our suffering, and coping with the uncertain challenges of life.

We can be mindfully aware of our selves and experiences at the relative level, while simultaneously recognizing the absolute reality of phenomena (Gyatso, 2002).

Presumably, in fact, mindfulness fully practiced will lead one along the “middle way” (Hanh, 1999)—i.e., seeking a path between the self and no-self.

We conceptualize the aim here as the mindful self, which takes the self as a process with awareness.
The more self-as-process is active, the more the person experiences his or her behaviors as volitional and autonomous, and the more his or her actions are experienced as wholehearted and authentic (Ryan and Rigby, 2015).

Prismatic,

Exactly. You wouldn’t compromise your views and reason in terms of the cause of religion being a deity. So why would you expect others to do that, when they have their own beliefs and perspectives? Beliefs and perspectives are not a hat that you take on and off, people value them.

If there is nothing, but physical reality. Even in that case, people will have different views from the one you’ve presented and there’s always the possibility that new scientific evidence will emerge.

Maybe, but maybe not. I don’t know what the reality is regarding this matter. And I don’t think that what you claim is conclusive. Not because of my beliefs, even from a physical perspective it doesn’t seem right to me, as I have argued.

If, as you have decided, the cause of religion is the subconscious fear of death. Why would you then consider speculating on the existence of something which you believe to be an impossibility?

With respect. As far as I can gather you’ve only shown this to yourself.

People have reasons for their beliefs. You are an empirical-realist, so you would naturally perceive this as being irrational. I don’t think it is irrational to have beliefs, but it is (IMV) irrational to completely ignore science. At the same time, it is irrational to claim you know the reason why all theists believe in God, and declare that this is supported by science (or empirically) – when there isn’t any substantive evidence which supports this.

But based upon current knowledge it is dependant on perspective. You can be as objective as possible, but in that case we can say that people invented religions, because of what they believed about the nature of reality. If they did create religions, the fear of death could be one reason, and could be attached to another reason, there could be many reasons. Giving priority to one cause is a matter of perception/interpretation. You have prioritised the subconscious fear of death, but there could be other reasons, and they may be primary, such as how people interpreted their experiences. Which is not something that you are willing to accept or don’t give priority to.

Okay.

This doesn’t reflect your posts. I don’t know why you would claim that this is your approach when your posts can be read?

Same as above.

My point is we should put aside all beliefs and focus on what is testable, justifiable and provable, i.e. reality that is empirically and philosophically justifiable.
In this case, it is not just “physical reality”, but one that is overseen by philosophical justifications cover pure physical reality and the self [conscious and subconscious].

True, there will be different views in every topic, but in the case of;

  1. DNA-RNA wise all humans are embedded with a will-to-live
  2. To live a human being has to avoid death.
  3. To avoid death a human being is ‘programmed’ to fear death among other primal drives.
  4. The above operate instinctively at the subconscious level of the mind.

The above is very evident and can be empirically inferred and verified.
So far, there are no alternative views to the above.
Do you have any or heard of any from others?

EVEN, if say, God created humans, the above are still valid and can be empirically inferred and verified.
In this case, we can question the condition god exists, but the premises of 1, 2, 3 and 4 are still true empirically.
Even if there are new scientific discovery, 1-4 above will still be true.

Thus while we will respect different views [contentious], the premises 1-4 are still true and are not contentious

It cannot be ‘maybe not’.

Whatever the beliefs a person has, they MUST involved the person’s brain and mind.
Whatever the beliefs you have have must happened in your brain and mind, not in mine, someone’s else or somewhere else.

EVEN if, there is a God, it must involved the person’s brain and mind to process the observation and confirmation.

Since it is imperative all beliefs must involved a person’s brain and mind, it is most likely, the idea of God [never been proven to exists, but based on faith] is more likely to be psychological then there is a real God out there.
I have given evidence, arguments and justification why this is more likely.
If a person is rational or agnostic, the confidence level for the possibility should be a minority [say 10%] that a majority [90%] in favor of God existing.

As such a rational person should focus on the 90% God is non-existent and thus focus on the empirical and philosophical perspective.

As I had demonstrated ‘God is an impossibility to be real’.
The emergence of god and believed to be real is due to the subconscious fear of death.
However, the reality of the belief in God [theism] has led to estimated >300+ million death of non-theists based on the mere point they are disbelievers.
This is a potential threat and hindrance to the mission of Perpetual Peace for humanity in the future.
The elimination of theism will ensure there will be no more >300 million death of unbelievers in the future or the possible extermination of the human species by extreme theists who are command by a God [illusory] driven by the subconscious fear of death.

Therefore the solution to deal with the above threat to humanity’s Perpetual Peace is to recognized the root cause, i.e. the inherent and unavoidable subconscious fear of death, to find solutions to deal with its manifested negative impulses.

Note the above is not a fanciful idea or solution, in reality the above has already been dealt with effectively via Buddhism and other spiritual practices, except they are not done on the majority scale due to certain limitations.

As such, we can focus on the above limitations as I had done by giving proper justifications and arguments so that what is already practiced in Buddhism and others effectively can be standardized and recommend to the majority.

True.
But what I have presented is of substance and opened to questioning and criticism.
Point is there are no criticisms and counter-arguments that warrant me to change my conclusions.

Note my arguments on the grounding above.
I have also justified how the subconscious fear of death is reflected significantly in the mainstream religions. - you have forgotten my point on this.
I have also highlighted Buddhism and others spiritual practices are already doing what I have argued albeit not in a systematic and scientific manner.

To reinforce the above, I believe we need actual case studies that prove the above.
I believe there are already such evidences but awaiting proper compilations. I will be looking into this.

You keep saying there are other reasons but provided no evidence.
Note it is requirement in any research project to exhaust all other alternatives and I have done so the best of my abilities. I have not come across and highly contentious alternative to my views.

Note as in Science no definite [ultimate] answers are expected, but are open to further questions, but yet scientific knowledge despite this limitation, is still useful to humanity.

My points and conclusions are not ultimate but opened to questions, but they are still useful while being opened to questioning upon have put through the most thorough questionings to date.

Prismatic,

If we want to find an answer to an empirical question then yes. But the nature of this topic is religion and spirituality, and whilst you may be certain that there is no reality behind the claims made by the religious, others are not. Hence beliefs and the reality/non-reality of them are fundamental to the discussion. We cannot just dismiss them as though they have no bearing on the situation, after all there may be some kind of truth to them. In looking at this from a purely empirical perspective, we may be ignoring something real that we are unaware of.

The problem is I don’t agree with this. Where is the empirical verification? If its as plain as you’re presenting, there should be many links you can provide supporting exactly this. Not something that has to be interpreted as what you’re claiming, but stating exactly what you’ve argued here. Your arguments aren’t doing the trick, so far.

Which you need to demonstrate with corroborating evidence (because you’re claiming a fact). I don’t think that anyone is going to agree you until you do, and maybe there just isn’t any? If you can provide substantive evidence that all religions are based upon the subconscious fear of death, then you have a good case, but your arguments, links and excerpts are open to interpretation. If you can’t find any precise evidence, you might as well give up arguing this, as it is such a huge claim.

The brain and mind are undoubtedly involved in beliefs, and from an empirical perspective that is where we start, but we don’t know for certain if there is any reality to the beliefs, so completely ruling them out as a factor doesn’t seem correct from my perspective.

I said that one of the reasons for religious belief could be how people interpreted their experiences. There is also feelings, intuitions, cognitively, perceptions, efficacy, expediency, reflection, introspection, fear, love, etc… In reducing all religions to the subconscious fear of death you are not considering the actual diversity of the human experience. How do you know precisely what is subconscious and what isn’t? I’m quite sure that if you search for evidence of why people have religious beliefs, you will find a plethora of examples. I’m not sure if I would call that “evidence”, because there are so many different opinions on the matter.

You’ve rejected and every counter-view and answered every question by insisting you are right. Even now, you claim that the subconscious fear of death is the cause of all religions with certainty, as if it were proven. Like I said, your posts can be read, this open minded exhortation is just not the case. But then I suppose you can’t say what you actually think “No one can prove me wrong” :laughing:.

The problem with this is primarily number three and how it leads into 4. Animals do not have a subconscious fear of death, they have a fear of things like predators. At least as far as we know. The fears deal with, yes, things that can cause death, but they do not have a fear of death, I would guess, since most would not have a conception of death.

Fear of spiders is triggered by spiders. People who are afraid of spiders do not have an unconscious fear of death. The have a conscious fear of spiders and an unconcscious one also, perhaps. The reason they have this is very likely evolutionary, but THERE NEED NOT BE ANY DEATH COMPONENT. All the DNA needs us to fear is the trigger. There need not be a unconscious idea of death underlying it.

Animals will protect themselves from things that scare them because of their instincts. There need be no conception of death. Natural selection has led to animals that are afraid of things that cause harm because this allows them to live. They simply have the fear. There is no unconcious death idea invovled.

Humans, unlike most other animals are CONSCIOUS that they will die. This may or may not be a factor in religion. I assume that it affects some of the beliefs involved in religious systems of belief, but given what religions and does, it is only a part of religions purpose.

You have provided no evidence, none, that there is some unconcsious idea of death involved in fears and anxieties.

Yes, those fears may be in place to prevent deaths, but that does not mean there is an unconscious fear of death. do you see the difference?

Natural selection will lead to us being afraid of things that are threats, but this does not mean that individual minds or brains have an unconscious fear of death. The will have fears of threats, because this will lead them to avoid and protect themselves from the threats. In fact it is more efficient to simply have the

evolutionary trait

to be afraid of heights

so we take precaution around them.

There is no need to have a middle man step.

Height---->triggers my fear of death unconsciously------->I am afraid of the height and step back.

Fear of height------->step back

The second is a vastly superior evolutionary trait. I don’t need the height to trigger my fear of death and then I take action. I am afraid of heights or take caution around them due to the anxiety they create DIRECTLY.

The onus is on you to demonstrate that for some odd reason evolution added this extra step where animals (including us) unconsciously bring up the death issue so that then we are afraid. There is no reason to do this. and it is less efficient. And there is no evidence of this.

Empirically inferred is an oxymoron.
You are using (poor) deduction. In fact you are not even doing that. You simply state things.

What are the alternatives for the beginnings of religion? Well, let’s black box the issue of ‘are gods real’? IOW let’s assume neither that they are real nor that they are unreal.

Religion arises via attibuting agency to things that happen. Humans were immersed in nature with a variety of life forms, flora and fauna, all struggling to live. And all doing stuff.

We have an innate tendency to personify things. Children tend to personify animals and even what are considered inanimate objects.

We know that indigenous groups tended to personify what modern people tend to call natural forces.

IOW humans have a tendency to attribute agency to things that modern science has not confirmed have agency.

This is closely related to finding meaning in things that modern scientists would say are contingent.

We see agents, meaning, cause and effect, relationships, where modern science has not confirmed there is agency, meaning, cause and effect, relationships.

These tendences, correctly or incorrectly led to the gods, spirits, creatures - iow all the so called supernatural entities - we find in indigenous religions.

We know that in indigenous groups communication took place between humans and non-human entites. Talking to plants, talking to hunted animals, talking to spirits.

Once you believe that there is agency, and relationship and meaning related to creatures other than humans

you

want

to control

that relationship.

Appease anger, ask for gifts, ask for forgiveness for killing and eating.

We see these patterns, the social relation, to non-human entities all through all indigenous groups.

What we call religion developed out of rules and ideas for dealing with entities that are very powerful.

There is no distinction in indigenous culture between religion and secular activity. It is only much later with the transcendent religions that were heavily dualist (and showed a hatred of the ‘material world’ as they conceived it) that this split took place.

Pantheist and animist religions have conceptions of deities even sometimes an overarching head deity (God). And like their dealings with all other entities they developed rules to get along with, get close to, deal with, please, the powerful deities.

That’s where religion arises. Relationships and ways of dealing with these beings that many modern secular humans consider unreal or not animate or both.

Yes, afterlife entered into this. Fear of no longer continuing after physical death

A FEAR THAT AS FAR AS WE KNOW ONLY HUMANS HAVE

may have or may not have entered into religions because we as humans are aware of death.

But to say that religions are caused by a fear of death conscious or otherwise

goes against the complexity of religion and the sources we know there are for religion.

And this matches what religion focuses on. The relationship with God, how to appease God, and what is focused on in the religion. This is the core reason we have what gets called religion. Of course religions are vast complex phenomena, so there are all sorts of social facets in there. I am arguing that the core is this relationship with and dealings with what get called supernatural agents. But even that is only part of what religions are.

Futher there are things that speak against this idea.

Hell. Why in God’s name (lol) would religions come up with an idea that for many is even worse than the idea of death?

I know people who have been relieved to become athiests because they had lived with a fear of hell they considered much worse than fear of nothingness.

Why create scary deities?

Why create religions where only heroes get into Heaven?

Why would people create something like this…

Buddhism is even worse. Here we have no self that even lasts through the lifetime before death. Why come up with that belief?

Call this process of personification a pathetic fallacy, a deep insight, projection, false attribution, misplaced pattern identification, correct interpretation…whatever

but it is the core reason we have religions.

We correctly or incorrectly attibute agency in or behind what is around us and develope ideas about how to make this work well.

Which is why religious texts tend to focus on God and family and how to be good in relation to these important agents.

This does not disprove that fear of death has led to ideas of an afterlife. But this talk about religion being to assuage our fear of death is the most ridiculous reductionism being bandied about at ILP right now.

And the fact that in humans knowledge of death is conscious plays the role in our beliefs, not that it is unconscious. This is not to say one cannot have anxiety over death that appears through other thoughts or behaviors, where it drives it unconsciously. But we are unique in being conscious of death.

Other strange ideas are the DNA makes us live as long as possible,when in fact DNA can lead creatures to have extremely short lives or to be virtually immortal like certain jellyfish.

The whole setting of percentage points is irrational. You have no good way of determining the percentages you throw around.

To sum up:
Personification and attribution of agency and meaning must have advantages for us. Children do this without being taught to do it and it is done in every single indigenous culture ever encountered. Whether it is correct or not, it must help humans. It is an important tendency we have and one that is not related to conscious or unconscious fear of death. This leads to beliefs about how to relate to all entities and to posit entities behind events in nature and dreams and illnesses and astronomical events and also meanings in even very small events (omens, signs, trivial weather changes, the shapes tea leaves make in the bottom of a cup, the shape of intestines in a sacrificed animal). Experts interpret, though amateurs interpret also and can receive messages, be intimate with, communicate with, recognize signs and so on.

We are pattern recognizers and we personify many patterns.

After that we try to develop heuristics to work with these beings and these messages. And how to get more messages and how to improve relations with other beings.

To improve out relations with all important beings (family, strangers, enemies, deities, spirits, ancestors, other supernatural agents, God) is present in all religious rituals and ceremonies. It is a vastly larger part of all religious texts, must larger than the parts dealing with after death. It is the largest part of all sermons and speeches. It is what the experts in the religions spend their time trying to get better at, be they shamans, priests, monks, sunyasin or whatever. They work on improving their relations with other beings including what get called supernatural beings. That is the core of what religion is a bout and it is not based on fear, it is based on our tendency to personify and as social beings to want to do well in our relationships, especially with those who have power or whom we love.

Choosing one emotion and one outcome as THE source of religion is not logical and flies in face of the religious texts and rituals and human nature. It is based on not verified ideas like unconscious fear of death being causal in protective behavior and is supported in Prismatic’s arguments with ridiculous use of numbers and percentages which just comes off as the intention to seem in control and rational but fails on both counts and has the opposite effect.

KT,

Excellent post =D> .

This is what I’m getting at when I say that religion could be due to how people interpreted their experiences. Attributing agency to things (like nature) is key to this discussion IMV. It will be interesting to see how Prismatic deals with this, as it so clearly effects what he’s insisting, and other salient points that you made.

Thank you. You are much more patient and polite than I am. Must be your Christian background ( :smiley: ) When I see patterns of interaction coupled with certainty that remind me of similar patterns ‘out there’ that have a lot of power, my patience is low and I can get downright rude. I know this does not help, but I am also skeptical that continued discussion helps in any way. I really don’t know what to do with the dogmatic ‘rational’ people of the world.

The dogmatic openly irrational I find easier to deal with and actually I think they have vastly less power and influence.

Yes, your way of phrasing it works also: how they interpreted their experiences.

KT,

Thanks also. If I am that way, I do believe that my Christian background may have something to do with it. I understand what you mean about the powerful, similar thoughts regarding patterns run through my mind in these discussion. I’m not calling anyone a bully, but I’ve had experiences with bullies as an adult in positions of power (in the work place), so I’m pretty used to dealing with them. That might explain my patience and politeness. Giving into their domination and/or eliciting an emotional response is what bullies crave, because they want to make you seem irrational. Their energy levels are also off the scale in my experience, they can go for ever in their pursuit. They don’t deal well with confident articulate people though, as they’re difficult to dominate, unless they have a clique… With regards to what to do with the dogmatic ‘rational’ people of the world, keep a safe distance!

As others have in turn pointed out above, when you make this argument, you are only iterating that until others share your own assessment of Buddhism-proper they are – by definition – understanding it improperly. Which is why over and again I propose that you take Buddhism-proper out into the world of actual human interaction and situate it in a context most here will be familiar with.

Like the one I provided above:

And:

Or, sure, choose another context.

Instead, you provide us with yet more “general description” contraptions to grapple with “intellectually”.

Pick any one of them and situate it out in the world that we live in.

I did not state ‘purely empirical’ perspective. Read my post again and note,
“one that is overseen by philosophical justifications [that] cover pure physical reality [empirical] and the [empirical] self [conscious and subconscious].”

So what is ‘real’ must be empirically and philosophically verifiable.
As such, theists must show empirical and philosophical justification to prove the God they claimed existing as real.
But theists, since the emergence of the idea of God, has NEVER been able to provide empirical and philosophical justification to prove God is real.

In general, the belief in God is based on faith which imply there is no intention to seek to prove God is empirically and philosophically real.

My point is, for any question of whatever is claimed to be real, we must resort to empirical and philosophical justifications.

The most obvious empirical and philosophical justifications on the question of God is what is in the theists’ brain and mind. This approach is more realistic than hunting for a God that is so illusive which I have demonstrated is a transcendental idea and an illusion of the brain/mind to deal with an existential crisis.

First you can verify point 1 personally, generally you would strive to survive, avoid death and has conscious fear of death intermittently which goes away. [A]
As I had stated, you can do a scientific test by asking every human being of the same experience and view as [A] and all normal human beings’ response will be the same as yours. Those who are different, say the suicidal are mentally ill.
Another point is, if one can have a fear of death consciously, it is likely to have arisen from the subconscious mind initially. This can be verified empirical by studying the neural networks in the brain. There are tons of research on this topic.
Thus the above are the empirical evidences.

As stated I have provided the empirical basis for premise 1-4.
I have already justify ALL religions’ main focus in on death, thus fear of death, e.g. John 3:16 in Christianity and from the texts of all mainstream religions.

The claim of the reality behind theistic religion, i.e. God [ultimate] is a pure transcendental idea and it can never be empirical. [note this point in the other thread, re concept is not an idea]
Since what is purely a transcendental idea is never empirical, God as a transcendental idea cannot be considered under the perspective of reality.

What is really real about God are the neural activities in the brain/mind of theists generating the transcendental idea and transcendental illusion of God as real.

Note the feelings, intuitions, cognitively, perceptions, efficacy, expediency, reflection, introspection, fear, love[?], etc… you mentioned are all grounded on the subconscious fear of death, thus to avoid death thus to facilitate procreation.
‘love’ is more about procreation.
I have also explain the difference between what is subconscious and conscious is very obvious.

If you ask religionists and theists, there will be a wide spectrum of reasons, but they all will be reduced to the subconscious fear of death.
It is the same if you ask question ‘why and how to be healthy’ there will also be a spectrum of reasons, but all the reasons can be reduced in principle to the subconscious fear of death, to avoid death to facilitate procreation.

I have rejected whatever counter views that are not soundly justified.
If I had rejected your views, then you can always re-counter why I claim your argument is not justified.
I believe I have and we all should comply with the agreed rules of arguments and discussions.

Btw, I don’t believe in ‘certainty’ like theists do and have never done that.

My stance is;
My argument stands as long as there are no valid counter arguments to prove it is false, which is very reasonable.

Your contention is there is no subconscious fear of death.
Point here is, because it is subconscious, we cannot consciously knows the subconscious fear of death.
It is the same with many primal instincts and emotions, we are not conscious of them, but then scientists are able to infer the full mechanisms of these instincts and emotions that operate within the subconscious levels.

Take for example, the emotion of anger.
The emotion of anger operates at the subconscious and conscious levels.
Many of the responses of anger happened in the brain and body at the subconscious level without the person being conscious of it. This is why some murderers killed spontaneously in response to the subconscious levels trigger of the ‘anger’ emotion.
The person is aware of one’s anger emotion consciously after feeling certain reactions of the body or seeing someone killed or other consequences that resulted from the anger responses.

The above mechanism of the emotion of fear is the same for that of anger.
The emotion of fear also operates at the subconscious and conscious levels. [A]
This principle is supported by tons of research on emotion and emotion of fear.
Thus when one sees a spider, the brain interprets the data of a spider and reacts accordingly initially as the subconscious level, then one is conscious one is has a fear of spider.

BUT, the fear of death is very unique from all other fears
To avoid death, it would be logical to fear death.
Re [A] this fear of death operates at the subconscious and conscious levels.
Thus when the person sees or learn of death empirically, there will be triggers at the subconscious levels initially as a the first response.

BUT unlike spiders or any other threats, it is totally different with the knowledge of death.
In the very unique case of the empirical sighting and knowledge of death, whatever happened in the subconscious level re death is SUPPRESSED at the conscious level.
This is because if this fear is not suppressed, the person will be paralyzed with the conscious fear of death at all times, since death is a certainty.
In the case of the spider and other threats, it is possible for one to run away and avoid these potential threat of death.
But death is a certainty, and the threat of death trigger fears, therefore the fear of death as the subconscious level must be SUPPRESSED. If it leaks to the conscious mind, in the majority of cases, it is only temporary to ensure humans are not paralyzed by this conscious fear of death.

While the conscious fear of death is SUPPRESSED, the subconscious fear of death is still active at the subconscious levels of the mind.
This is because by the time the person is, say 5-10-15, they would have observed real death of humans [kins, friends, etc.] and their subconscious mind would have such a knowledge and thus react accordingly, which is very turbulent and tremendous.
While this is very active and desperate, humans are evolved with inhibitors that suppressed all these desperate reaction of the subconscious fear of death from reaching the conscious mind except intermittently.

If you are aware, within psychology and psychiatry, the resultant of suppressed feelings and emotions result in all kinds of psychosis which are not easy to trace.
This desperate and terrible suppressed subconscious fear of death exudes [through leakages] a spectrum of indirect feelings of anxieties, despairs, loss of meaning, Angst, and the likes.
These terrible uneasy feeling happens to all humans beings and the majority turned to religions to soothe these existential pains and sufferings.
Because the theists as majority has resolved their existential pains, most would not be bothered to trace their belief in religion to their source, i.e. the subconscious fear of death.

The only religion [as far as I know] that [quite explicitly] trace the existential pains and sufferings to the subconscious fear of death is Buddhism.
This is after the Buddha noted all theistic religions were not able to fully resolve the existential pains while some has contributed to more sufferings.
Note the Buddha Story, the 4NT, the 8FP and other core principles.

All the other mainstream religions’ focus in also on death and thus the subconscious fear of death.
Believers will give a range and spectrum of reasons why they are religious, but on deeper analysis, they are traceable to the subconscious fear of death.

Hope you get the point why the subconscious fear of death is inherent within the subconscious mind and as a special case is suppressed from the conscious mind, except intermittently.

You lost it when you bring in animals fear of death because animals do not have a ‘conscious mind’ and fear of spiders,heights, etc. cannot be compared to the unique fear of death [a thought not an object].

Thus my point;
The root cause of all religions is the subconscious fear of death.

One interesting point from the above;
“This is because by the time the person is, say 5-10-15, they would have observed real death of humans [kins, friends, etc.] and their subconscious mind would have such a knowledge and thus react accordingly, which is very turbulent and tremendous.”

I believe if a human being is not exposed to the concept of death at all, his subconscious fear would not be triggered with the subconscious fear of death. His subconscious will not have any data of possible death.
In this case, this person will not experience the indirect unease, anxieties, despairs, Angst indirectly from the subconscious fear of death.
Such a person will be genuinely indifferent to the fundamental purpose of religion and theism.

This is the basis behind the Buddha Story [myth] where the prince was prevented from the knowledge of illness, old age and death [corpse] so that his subconscious fear of death will not be triggered.

But nature is such the majority of human beings will not be able to escape the knowledge of inevitable mortality.
As such the subconscious fear of death will be activated in the majority of human beings and all human beings will suffer from the existential pains. The majority would have turned to religions and theism because it the easiest and most effective balm to soothe those existential pains.

I believe those who are mentally handicapped and unable to process the knowledge of death will not be triggered with the subconscious fear of death thus will be blissful to the threat. [ignorance is bliss].