Were you a proper Christian? 
Phyllo,
the irony causes me to sit back … Not by Prismatic’s standards. But anyway, only on Sundays 
.
phyllo,
So then, I do not presume that what you are saying here is that everything that we see and value and love and experience does not actually exist, that the reality is that it is all illusion.
Perhaps buddhists like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Yes, this is true. At the same time, do we not recognize a slice of pumpkin pie as having its own properties or when we eat it, do we at the same time drag the rest of the pie along with it? lol That was a very poor example. Words just failed.
This is true. That is called a Self but I do not view it as an optical delusion. We are not the Borg. That same human being is also capable of sensing and feeling connected to everything in the universe perhaps more so because he realizes that he is not all alone like an island. He has himself. Why does it have to be just one way or the other?
It is true though that there are individuals who feel this way in a negative way. They are usually called narcissists or megalomaniacs and they have false selves. One comes to my mind. lol
The way I look at it, the individual who is a whole person, a whole self, who sees their self as also being a part of something, experiencing their inter-connectedness, but at the same time also as a unique individual who knows who they are, who is capable of both seeking their place in the world and knowing when they have found it – this is the kind of person who can reach out, who will widen their circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty, in their own unique way, spending their life as William James said, for something which will outlast it.
If someone is not fully “whole” in their own self, how would they have the “conscious awareness” to accomplish the things which need to be done in this world? What kind of a person would that be other than one who seeks a cause for the thrill of it, that experience soon fading away or the one who would allow their self to be used or abused in the name of some cause because they did not have a sense of their own true identity or “individuality”.
People who do not have a strong sense of “true” self are lead to lose the already waning self and identity which they have. This is why some are drawn to cults or to other unhealthy, negative symbiotic relationships.
Again, what is it about us which seems to want to deny what is clearly there or could be there? The despots of the world may just love the buddhist.
“Conscious awareness” is not required.
That assumes some static “true self” in there.
On the contrary. When the Buddhist eliminates cravings, desires and attachments, he/she cannot be controlled by a despot. Threats, punishments and rewards have no effect. The Buddhist has complete freedom of action.
It is not perceived knowledge of the subconscious mind.
It is a scientific fact, all humans has a mind comprising a conscious and unconscious part.
Note;
simplypsychology.org/unconscious-mind.html
If you read the above article you will definitely agree with the demarcation.
You disagree with the above?
Yes, no belief and acceptance in their ‘heart’ of Christ/God as savior.
There are many Muslims and other refugees in the USA who superficially convert to Christianity because that will expedite them to be citizens.
Not my diagnosis.
The above reasons are commonly reported in testimonies by atheists who convert to Christianity, Islam and other theistic religion.
Even Christians who convert to Islam and vice versa will give similar reasons.
I have read of many testimonies from those who converted to Christianity or Islam, that they feel their mental burdens and pains are relieved immediately upon surrender and accepting Christ or Allah respectively as savior.
I have read of 100s of such testimonies. Suggest you read a significant number if you haven’t.
In the case of some who converted to Islam, the relief they get from being Muslim is so precious, they are willing to obey Allah to kill non-Muslims or even kill themselves to retain that relief in paradise.
I have given my argument the fundamental reason why people are driven to Christianity-proper is due to the compelling indirect impulses from the subconscious fear of death.
This is supported with evidences re the concept of death from the authorized texts of all the major religions.
Therefore one can make the inference from the effects to the cause based on the above evidences.
What I called ‘proper’ [truer] is how it is objectively judged against what are in the authorized texts of Buddhism and Christianity.
The authorized texts of Buddhism and Christianity are readily available anyone can verify my claims to what is in the authorized texts whether what I claim is true or not.
I had defined Buddhism-proper is based on the core principles of Buddhism, i.e. the 4NT, the 8 Fold Paths, the core principles of anicca, anatta, co-dependent origination, Sunyata, the Two-truths theory, the Middle-Way and others [?] which are supported by their various sub-principles, various forms of practices, etc.
Show me where I am wrong in this?
It is the same where I had defined what is Christianity-proper which you will not be able to point out I am wrong. If so, where?
“Weightages” or otherwise priorities are used in philosophical arguments but they are not generally quantified.
While weightages are generally subjective, they can be objective if supported with evidence. For example, if 55% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are anti-Non_Muslim then we can infer quite objective there is high degree of hatred for non-Muslims.
The caution with weightages is if the % are very close like between 1% and 3% then any inference will not be realiable.
However there is some sense of reliability if the % is between an estimated 90% and 10% and this can be justified by actual results and experiences.
I have accepted many criticisms.
The latest arguments I have presented had been revised upon criticisms.
I used the phrase, “DNA-RNA wise all human have been programmed with …”
It is criticized as implying the existence of a programmer or creator of the program.
I avoided that term even though I meant it metaphorically as ‘programmed’ by nature.
I have also changed certain premises.
It is the default for any one to present their thesis which one has polished to defend it as much as possible until it is proven it cannot be true.
When I invite for counters, there is likely to be someone who will give counters from their perspective and I will assess whether what they countered is justified to be true.
Such a stance is typical with Science and all fields of knowledge.
Yes it is VERY powerful and the majority has succumbed to its power to theism.
That you are able to overcome the instinct of your subconscious mind in this aspect, it is a sign you have made a very significant improvement [a paradigm shift] in your conscious will power to be more human than being an animal [dominated by the subconscious impulses and instincts].
You have used critical thinking, psycho-analysis and rationality to mitigate the terrible forces of the subconscious mind in this aspect [not necessary others].
It is the same with most people who can modulate their lusts and other potentially harmful impulses from the subconscious mind.
I saw a 60-Minute Program which claim pedophiles are born as evidenced by neuro-imagings. While some of those who are born-pedophile molest children, there is a group of pedophiles who consciously and rationalize to control their pedophilic impulses from their subconscious mind which they cannot stop the impulses.
youtube.com/watch?v=OiquubYVbWQ
It is obvious ‘perish’ means not having eternal life.
The the term ‘perish’ here in contrast to eternal life, imply something terrible, i.e. dying from physical death with nothing to look forward except be burnt in Hell.
Prismatic,
That wasn’t my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer. What I meant was, how did you obtain your perceived knowledge of the in depth workings of the subconscious mind, such that you are able to make claims, detailed arguments and (what seems to be) diagnosis involving how the subconscious mind operates to a specific degree in all human beings.
Fundamentally, I believe that if there is no belief in Jesus, the person is not a Christian. But we cannot know if people genuinely believe or they are just pretending to believe. Some people are “Christians” because it is expedient.
Please note that I said many the many effects of religious belief. However I think you were being specific. I too have heard of instant reactions, such as feeling a huge sense of peace when someone converts or is born again. But how can one action of surrender or dipping someone in water immediately reach the subconscious mind such that it resolves the subconscious fear of death?
How do these actions result in instant changes in people on a fundamental level, after decades of the subconscious being the way that it was? I don’t expect you to be able to answer these questions, I am just trying point out to you that certainty about the workings of the subconscious mind is misplaced. We can speculate given what knowledge is available, but to make the broad claims you are making re being able to infer details about the subconscious mind in all humans is just not right. Don’t you feel that in your gut?
Also, given that the demographic is millions, reading hundreds of testimonies doesn’t give you the ground to claim that this ‘relief’ experience manifests in all people who convert.
You’re trying to be so clinical that it presents more as a diagnosis. And more so, it relates to all types of people from subsets from humanity… I don’t see how you make the link from the texts of major religions, to the subconscious mind? How do you know if someone is experiencing the fear of death in there subconscious and that the texts are the cause of that? How would you know if you were experiencing the subconscious fear of death, if the subconscious is not accessible to the conscious mind? Again, I don’t expect you to be able to answer these questions, just something to think about I suppose.
It is mean to be basic and universal for all human beings.
Note the above is genetic and a default, i.e. embedded in the DNA-RNA genetically in the subconscious mind and not within the conscious mind.
Yes, there are varying degrees in how humans strives to survive due to opposing forces from external environment and internal circumstance. But one cannot deny the default will-to-live from the genes.
This default will-to-live and survive may be weakened due to unfoldment in the RNA processes and thus human will have varying degrees of will-to-live to the extreme of really bad damage and the person turned suicidal.
Again one cannot deny the default will-to-live from the genes.
‘To live’ is equivalent to, ‘to avoid death’.
This is a matter of looking at a cup half-full or half-empty but each perspective has it utility.
Thus premise 1 is true.
The fear of death is both activated by the subconscious and conscious mind.
If you observed danger or a threat, e.g. a poisonous snake nearby, you will consciously move away from that snake.
The conscious mind [10% powerful] is limited, therefore the subconscious mind [90%] will drive you away from potential death even before you are conscious of any potential death.
Such unconscious reactions are very common to the normal person.
Note the fight or fight responses, they happen within the brain and body even before you are conscious of it. The other is the freeze response.
Even in the snake case, you subconscious mind had already reacted before you are conscious and rationalize the situation and take rational actions.
In extreme cases, the subconscious mind will even sent the person into coma in the face of a very severe threat of death, even before the person or doctor consciously decides what to do.
This is what doctors will do consciously in a calculated and rational sense in severe cases of emergency, i.e. put the person into temporary coma so that the body can heal itself.
You need to do more research on the unconscious mind and how it works.
I have explained many times.
A fear of death is activated in the subconscious mind.
Because it is in the subconscious mind, one is not conscious of it.
But the powerful impulses of the subconscious fear of death, manifest indirectly as anxieties, unease, Angst and a general mental suffering.
These are the indirect existential pains resulting from the subconscious fear of death.
Note above.
It works in degrees with different people.
To be afraid to die is natural, i.e. to avoid death as in 1.
However the Christian [majority] is not likely to have a fear of physical death, since John 3:16 promised eternal life in heaven based on his 100% faith in Christ/Jesus. Surely a Christian must believed 100% [faith] in the promise of Jesus/Christ.
That you still had existential questions imply your rational mind was working against blind faith. This is perhaps the reason you was able to unchain yourself from the grasp of the terrible impulses of the subconscious fear of death.
For the typical Christian-proper, his subconscious fear of death is very active and powerful and the only way is the contract with Jesus/God’s promise of eternal life re John 3:16 entrench by the Christian’s strong blind faith.
This is why it takes a lot for the typical Christian to break away from the above bondage of faith and often they have to go through terrible stage of cold-turkey, for years in some cases.
Prismatic,
You confirm the validity of your own hypothesis?
As if that would lead to certain answers? What did I specifically state that leads you to say that?
How do you know that these emotions are not generated by the conscious mind?
Then how can you generalise?
Perhaps, but it could also mean that … oh I give up with you…
It is not perceived knowledge.
Mine is justified true belief, i.e. knowledge with varying degree of confidence levels.
I am not sure of your question.
One thing is I had covered tons and tons of materials and knowledge of the subconscious minds from various fields of knowledge.
Then from the above I will rationalize to produce justified true beliefs.
I am not sure, you’ll need to be more specific.
But we can rely on the principle of who is a Christian objective via the Gospel.
It may not be applicable to all.
However from the example of instant reactions, we can infer something has happened inside the brain when the person surrender and accept Christ/Jesus.
To triangulate and infer what it is, we have to refer to many other evidences of experiences and principles to arrive at a conclusion, i.e. it is reducible to the subconscious fear of death.
There are scientific research into the neural wirings associated with fear within the lower and mid brain and how they are manifested to the conscious level in various [directly and indirectly] ways.
I have already made the argument from the genetic striving to live to avoid death and therefrom the fear of death.
Thereupon, that subconscious fear is verified by Science re the neural wirings at the subconscious levels.
There are also research that discuss how this subconscious fear of death exudes indirectly as indirectly existential pains.
You’ll need to do more research on this yourself.
If I were to explain the above in full details, that would warrant a book-size post.
Yes as justified and note the logic and rationale of it.
How else it is false?
Btw, I have also stated the premise can possibly be tested empirically and very likely to be true, i.e. Scientifically.
It is based on what I know of the unconscious mind and what you don’t seem to know.
You keep having doubts with the workings of the subconscious mind.
If that is the case, then it would be in something like a movie, where actors consciously generate various feelings of happiness, dread, anxieties or fear on a pseudo basis.
The conscious can feel and be conscious of those feelings but the conscious mind do not generate them except where one deliberately generate them.
If one is consciously generating those dreadful feelings, one can consciously stop them.
Note in the case of anxieties and trembling with some kind of fear when one is faced with the need to do public speaking. It is not easy to control such fears because they emanate from the subconscious mind like indirectly existential pains as anxieties, etc.
I read, one of the greatest fears polled is ‘fear of public speaking’
WHY? here is the main reason,
Why Are We Scared of Public Speaking?
- Physiology
Fear and anxiety involve the arousal of the autonomic nervous system in response to a potentially threatening stimulus. When confronted with a threat, our bodies prepare for battle. This hyperarousal leads to the emotional experience of fear, and it interferes with our ability to perform comfortably in front of audiences. Eventually, it prevents people from pursuing opportunities for public speaking.
(read more at)
psychologytoday.com/us/blog … c-speaking
If we dig deeper, the above fear is traceable as a form of the subconscious fear of death, in avoiding death so to live as in my premise 1.
Intensity and degrees are part of reality, note the Bell Curves and the Shades of Grey.
I can’t be wrong by referring to this general principle.
You will note I have justified all my counters with facts, evidence and generally accepted principles.
It is your discretion to give up.
As for me, it is beneficial since I can refresh from my database and polished up my arguments.
I seldom give up as far as the path forward is rational. This is why I spent so much time digging deeper and deeper into reality, note 2+ years full time on Buddhism, 3 years full time on Kant, 3+ years full time on Islam and much time on others.
Prismatic,
Thank you for taking the time to respond, but I’ve given up brother.
Prismatic,
And this is still confused. All humans who are alive are alive. Those who are not do not strive to live. Those who are alive, do not need to strive to live, they need to strive to find food and so on. The will try to avoid threats including deadly ones. They are conscious of this and also will react for reasons that may not be conscious of to threats.
No, they are afraid of threats, some of which are deadly, many can or do cause bodily harm.
These are pretty conscious.
Maybe, maybe not. It might simply be stating a fact. It might have a more mystical purpose that is not about life beyond the grave.
I do think it can be linked, associated with by believers and others, with death and thus with fears of it. None of this demonstrates that Christianity is 90% focusing on assuaging the fear of death. Further calling this always an unconscious fear of death is odd since animals do not have religions but also exhibit fears related to threats. What makes us unique is the conscious conception of death. So the motivator for religions, if it were death, would be related to conscious fears, not unconscious fears of threats that are possibly mortal ones.
See, one of the mistakes here is that we need to have an unconscious fear of death, rather than a fear of threats fo various kinds.
And of course you are just assuming there is no God, experiences that lead to religions are not real or misinterpreted.
I have argued the above is not Buddhism-proper.
Buddhism-proper [based on its core principles] in this case, the ‘two-truths theory’ believes in the following;
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The empirical-I-self is very real within reality.
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Where 1 above is extended beyond and reified as a transcendental-I-self, that is an illusion.
It is the same with all of reality;
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All of reality is empirically real.
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Where 1 above is extended beyond and reified as a transcendental reality, that is an illusion.
Thus Buddhism proper recognized the empirical-I-self as very real and the believer need to optimize the well-being of the empirical person.
It is real and not an illusion, as such if the real empirical self is standing on a track of an oncoming train he will maintain his reality by jumping off the track as soon and a far as possible to avoid a premature death.
However Buddhism-proper do not recognize the empirical-I-self as a transcendental-I-self as a soul that has essence and can survive physical death to eternal life. This is the empirical-I-self engaging in an illusion which will bring sufferings to the empirical-I-self thus hindering the empirical-I-self from optimizing his empirical being.
Thus a Buddhist-proper do not throw the baby out with the bathwater but only throw away plain dirty water.
The general principle is;
- All humans strive to live, thus to avoid death.
To avoid death, humans has sub-programs to fear death, to find food, to breathe, to ensure security, etc.
But one cannot deny the overriding drive, i.e. 1. All humans strive to live, thus to avoid death.
As for striving, it comes in degree due to various factors.
It is known, no normal humans want to die and there are loads of evidence humans will strive to survive against all odds.
I presume, if you are the normal average human, you will strive to survive, if you are faced with rising waters, loss in a jungle, trapped in a burning house and other potential fatal situations?
Why are they afraid of threats?
Threats = potential death
It is because they fear death thus want to avoid death so that they will live as programmed to.
Yes one is conscious of them, but one is ignorant of what is the root cause.
If one step on a nail and it is stuck to the foot, the root cause of the pain is the nail, thus pulling out the nail will eliminate the pain.
In the case of existential pains, people do not know what is its root cause, but for the majority theism is the most effective to soothe these existential pains.
I have given an example of the fear of public speaking where one is not conscious of its root cause. Therefore one cannot effective control it consciously. Some may be able to modulate their fears of public speaking via practicing public speaking but some it is impossible to cure them of the fear, anxieties, worries and mental pains related to public speaking.
I would argued, the proximate root cause of that exudes the fear of public speaking for most is from the subconscious fear of death.
Thus when we can track the pathways of the fears of public speaking to the subconscious fear of death neural wise, we will be able to deal with the outer indirect fears effectively. To do so will take time.
For the majority of Christian-proper who are driven subconsciously by the subconscious fear of death, there will be some kind of relief of the indirect existential pains.
A Christian who believe his God is omni-whatever, i.e. omni-powerful will believe thus feel confident what his all-powerful God promise will be true.
Analogy:
Suppose a weak person A is chase by a person who threatened him with knife showing intent to kill him. Such a obvious situation will trigger his subconscious fear of death first and then the conscious fear of death and he will be very fearful.
But for some fortunate event, suddenly his best friend, 300 pounds of muscle, martial artist expert and with a gun appeared and he ran behind him.
One can guess whatever of A’s terrible fears will disappear immediately.
In John 3:16 case, the Christian when faced with threats then ran behind an all-powerful God, it is likely whatever existential pains he has will disappear immediately in most case, if not drastically mitigated.
I have not analyzed 100% of the Gospel, but in principle the eschatological elements are critical just like its Abrahamic related Islam which I have researched.
The whole religious ethos of Islam is 90% about the subconscious fear of death which is exploited originally for a political and imperialistic purpose.
I have researched Buddhism and it is 90% about death.
I have researched Hinduism, the idea of reincarnation is prominent and that is about death.
All animals are programmed to avoid death and has the same internal neural circuit of the fear of death [especially mammals] to avoid death so to live.
But non-human mammals do not have a conscious brain like humans do.
Therefore in the case of non-human mammals the impulse of the subconscious fear of death are not manifest indirectly to a conscious brain for them to have conscious anxieties, loss of meaning of life, worries, Angst.
It is only humans who has a conscious brain to be activated with conscious anxieties, loss of meaning of life, worries, Angst exuding from the root cause of the subconscious fear of death.
These indirect existential pains from the subconscious fear of death but felt as anxieties, loss of meaning of life, worries, Angst at the conscious level of the mind, drive these suffering humans to make a conscious effort to theism to be soothed by a promise of eternal life via John 3:16 and the likes.
I bet if Chimpanzees later after 200,000 years evolve with a conscious mind and self-awareness to consciously feel conscious anxieties, loss of meaning of life, worries, Angst, like humans, these self-consciousness Chimpanzees will turn to theism.
Maybe that’s just you. Maybe you are very concerned about death and you look for confirmation of your own fears.
So you link every stress response to “the subconscious fear of death”. That says something interesting.