Prismatic will not accept criticism or critiques of his arguements. He will always claim that there are no valid counters. Yet he appeals for counters, whilst believing that his arguements are sound. Its like inviting people to fish in an empty lake. (This, is a generalisation IMV).
With regards to giving up Christianity, I wasn’t suddenly afraid to die and go to hell. I just accepted that life ends and I’ll cease to exist. If the subconscious fear of death was as powerful as Prismatic believes, I doubt that I would of been able to give it up. If I end up in hell for being unable to believe somethimg, then God is nuts.
Prismatic,
Do we actually believe that this “perish” is suppose to mean that people believed that they would not die a physical death if they believed in Christ? Is this what John was teaching?
I think it is possible that what is meant by “perish” is that people will not be damned to hell for eternity if they would only believe in Christ. I think that “everlasting life” after death was the main focus and what they considered to be their just award in view of the perhaps miserable lives they may have been living.
Prismatic,
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I think this is over-simplified… There are varying degrees of living that human-beings engage in. Not everyone “strives” to live. Also, if someone does strive to live, we cannot leap to the conclusion that they are doing so to avoid death. That is an assumption, certainly not a conclusion which takes many factors into consideration.
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Firstly, imputed by what? IMV, the fear of death is in our conscious awareness, we just don’t think about it all of the time. There is obviously a relationship between the conscious and subconscious mind, but people avoid death by being consciously aware of what will kill them, so we could tenuously say that the subconscious is where information is stored, but we cannot claim that the information is constantly active, if you see what I’m saying. It’s dormant, until the threat of death comes to our awareness, but then I’m guessing. The fear of death could be in our conscious awareness, because we don’t know for sure what the capacity of the consciousness mind is, and what information is stored where (note my use of mind, not brain). I don’t know why you think you do? Certain claims relating to the subconscious are problematic to make, because it is not something we consciously experience, so obtaining empirical evidence is difficult, hence the theoretical nature of this area of investigation.
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I don’t understand how you could know that? What are “indirect existential pains”? Didn’t we discuss that you should explain terms like this?
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You need to explain what you mean by “indirect existential pains”. Also, this is a diagnosis.
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This conclusion doesn’t necessary follow from the premises. What if John 3:16 doesn’t relieve “indirect existential pains” (whatever that is)? Are you claiming that all Christians aren’t afraid to die, because John 3:16 suppresses the subconscious fear of death? When I was a Christian I was very afraid to die, and I still had existential questions, how would you explain that? Or is the actual experience of a Christian not valid here?
KT,
This is again cliche, but I would sum up Prismatic in the following way… “Having intelligence is one thing, knowing how to use it is another.”
(I’ve had way too much caffeine today 
)
Were you a proper Christian? 
Phyllo,
the irony causes me to sit back … Not by Prismatic’s standards. But anyway, only on Sundays 
.
phyllo,
So then, I do not presume that what you are saying here is that everything that we see and value and love and experience does not actually exist, that the reality is that it is all illusion.
Perhaps buddhists like to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Yes, this is true. At the same time, do we not recognize a slice of pumpkin pie as having its own properties or when we eat it, do we at the same time drag the rest of the pie along with it? lol That was a very poor example. Words just failed.
This is true. That is called a Self but I do not view it as an optical delusion. We are not the Borg. That same human being is also capable of sensing and feeling connected to everything in the universe perhaps more so because he realizes that he is not all alone like an island. He has himself. Why does it have to be just one way or the other?
It is true though that there are individuals who feel this way in a negative way. They are usually called narcissists or megalomaniacs and they have false selves. One comes to my mind. lol
The way I look at it, the individual who is a whole person, a whole self, who sees their self as also being a part of something, experiencing their inter-connectedness, but at the same time also as a unique individual who knows who they are, who is capable of both seeking their place in the world and knowing when they have found it – this is the kind of person who can reach out, who will widen their circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty, in their own unique way, spending their life as William James said, for something which will outlast it.
If someone is not fully “whole” in their own self, how would they have the “conscious awareness” to accomplish the things which need to be done in this world? What kind of a person would that be other than one who seeks a cause for the thrill of it, that experience soon fading away or the one who would allow their self to be used or abused in the name of some cause because they did not have a sense of their own true identity or “individuality”.
People who do not have a strong sense of “true” self are lead to lose the already waning self and identity which they have. This is why some are drawn to cults or to other unhealthy, negative symbiotic relationships.
Again, what is it about us which seems to want to deny what is clearly there or could be there? The despots of the world may just love the buddhist.
“Conscious awareness” is not required.
That assumes some static “true self” in there.
On the contrary. When the Buddhist eliminates cravings, desires and attachments, he/she cannot be controlled by a despot. Threats, punishments and rewards have no effect. The Buddhist has complete freedom of action.
It is not perceived knowledge of the subconscious mind.
It is a scientific fact, all humans has a mind comprising a conscious and unconscious part.
Note;
simplypsychology.org/unconscious-mind.html
If you read the above article you will definitely agree with the demarcation.
You disagree with the above?
Yes, no belief and acceptance in their ‘heart’ of Christ/God as savior.
There are many Muslims and other refugees in the USA who superficially convert to Christianity because that will expedite them to be citizens.
Not my diagnosis.
The above reasons are commonly reported in testimonies by atheists who convert to Christianity, Islam and other theistic religion.
Even Christians who convert to Islam and vice versa will give similar reasons.
I have read of many testimonies from those who converted to Christianity or Islam, that they feel their mental burdens and pains are relieved immediately upon surrender and accepting Christ or Allah respectively as savior.
I have read of 100s of such testimonies. Suggest you read a significant number if you haven’t.
In the case of some who converted to Islam, the relief they get from being Muslim is so precious, they are willing to obey Allah to kill non-Muslims or even kill themselves to retain that relief in paradise.
I have given my argument the fundamental reason why people are driven to Christianity-proper is due to the compelling indirect impulses from the subconscious fear of death.
This is supported with evidences re the concept of death from the authorized texts of all the major religions.
Therefore one can make the inference from the effects to the cause based on the above evidences.
What I called ‘proper’ [truer] is how it is objectively judged against what are in the authorized texts of Buddhism and Christianity.
The authorized texts of Buddhism and Christianity are readily available anyone can verify my claims to what is in the authorized texts whether what I claim is true or not.
I had defined Buddhism-proper is based on the core principles of Buddhism, i.e. the 4NT, the 8 Fold Paths, the core principles of anicca, anatta, co-dependent origination, Sunyata, the Two-truths theory, the Middle-Way and others [?] which are supported by their various sub-principles, various forms of practices, etc.
Show me where I am wrong in this?
It is the same where I had defined what is Christianity-proper which you will not be able to point out I am wrong. If so, where?
“Weightages” or otherwise priorities are used in philosophical arguments but they are not generally quantified.
While weightages are generally subjective, they can be objective if supported with evidence. For example, if 55% of the 6236 verses in the Quran are anti-Non_Muslim then we can infer quite objective there is high degree of hatred for non-Muslims.
The caution with weightages is if the % are very close like between 1% and 3% then any inference will not be realiable.
However there is some sense of reliability if the % is between an estimated 90% and 10% and this can be justified by actual results and experiences.
I have accepted many criticisms.
The latest arguments I have presented had been revised upon criticisms.
I used the phrase, “DNA-RNA wise all human have been programmed with …”
It is criticized as implying the existence of a programmer or creator of the program.
I avoided that term even though I meant it metaphorically as ‘programmed’ by nature.
I have also changed certain premises.
It is the default for any one to present their thesis which one has polished to defend it as much as possible until it is proven it cannot be true.
When I invite for counters, there is likely to be someone who will give counters from their perspective and I will assess whether what they countered is justified to be true.
Such a stance is typical with Science and all fields of knowledge.
Yes it is VERY powerful and the majority has succumbed to its power to theism.
That you are able to overcome the instinct of your subconscious mind in this aspect, it is a sign you have made a very significant improvement [a paradigm shift] in your conscious will power to be more human than being an animal [dominated by the subconscious impulses and instincts].
You have used critical thinking, psycho-analysis and rationality to mitigate the terrible forces of the subconscious mind in this aspect [not necessary others].
It is the same with most people who can modulate their lusts and other potentially harmful impulses from the subconscious mind.
I saw a 60-Minute Program which claim pedophiles are born as evidenced by neuro-imagings. While some of those who are born-pedophile molest children, there is a group of pedophiles who consciously and rationalize to control their pedophilic impulses from their subconscious mind which they cannot stop the impulses.
youtube.com/watch?v=OiquubYVbWQ
It is obvious ‘perish’ means not having eternal life.
The the term ‘perish’ here in contrast to eternal life, imply something terrible, i.e. dying from physical death with nothing to look forward except be burnt in Hell.
Prismatic,
That wasn’t my point. Perhaps I should have been clearer. What I meant was, how did you obtain your perceived knowledge of the in depth workings of the subconscious mind, such that you are able to make claims, detailed arguments and (what seems to be) diagnosis involving how the subconscious mind operates to a specific degree in all human beings.
Fundamentally, I believe that if there is no belief in Jesus, the person is not a Christian. But we cannot know if people genuinely believe or they are just pretending to believe. Some people are “Christians” because it is expedient.
Please note that I said many the many effects of religious belief. However I think you were being specific. I too have heard of instant reactions, such as feeling a huge sense of peace when someone converts or is born again. But how can one action of surrender or dipping someone in water immediately reach the subconscious mind such that it resolves the subconscious fear of death?
How do these actions result in instant changes in people on a fundamental level, after decades of the subconscious being the way that it was? I don’t expect you to be able to answer these questions, I am just trying point out to you that certainty about the workings of the subconscious mind is misplaced. We can speculate given what knowledge is available, but to make the broad claims you are making re being able to infer details about the subconscious mind in all humans is just not right. Don’t you feel that in your gut?
Also, given that the demographic is millions, reading hundreds of testimonies doesn’t give you the ground to claim that this ‘relief’ experience manifests in all people who convert.
You’re trying to be so clinical that it presents more as a diagnosis. And more so, it relates to all types of people from subsets from humanity… I don’t see how you make the link from the texts of major religions, to the subconscious mind? How do you know if someone is experiencing the fear of death in there subconscious and that the texts are the cause of that? How would you know if you were experiencing the subconscious fear of death, if the subconscious is not accessible to the conscious mind? Again, I don’t expect you to be able to answer these questions, just something to think about I suppose.
It is mean to be basic and universal for all human beings.
Note the above is genetic and a default, i.e. embedded in the DNA-RNA genetically in the subconscious mind and not within the conscious mind.
Yes, there are varying degrees in how humans strives to survive due to opposing forces from external environment and internal circumstance. But one cannot deny the default will-to-live from the genes.
This default will-to-live and survive may be weakened due to unfoldment in the RNA processes and thus human will have varying degrees of will-to-live to the extreme of really bad damage and the person turned suicidal.
Again one cannot deny the default will-to-live from the genes.
‘To live’ is equivalent to, ‘to avoid death’.
This is a matter of looking at a cup half-full or half-empty but each perspective has it utility.
Thus premise 1 is true.
The fear of death is both activated by the subconscious and conscious mind.
If you observed danger or a threat, e.g. a poisonous snake nearby, you will consciously move away from that snake.
The conscious mind [10% powerful] is limited, therefore the subconscious mind [90%] will drive you away from potential death even before you are conscious of any potential death.
Such unconscious reactions are very common to the normal person.
Note the fight or fight responses, they happen within the brain and body even before you are conscious of it. The other is the freeze response.
Even in the snake case, you subconscious mind had already reacted before you are conscious and rationalize the situation and take rational actions.
In extreme cases, the subconscious mind will even sent the person into coma in the face of a very severe threat of death, even before the person or doctor consciously decides what to do.
This is what doctors will do consciously in a calculated and rational sense in severe cases of emergency, i.e. put the person into temporary coma so that the body can heal itself.
You need to do more research on the unconscious mind and how it works.
I have explained many times.
A fear of death is activated in the subconscious mind.
Because it is in the subconscious mind, one is not conscious of it.
But the powerful impulses of the subconscious fear of death, manifest indirectly as anxieties, unease, Angst and a general mental suffering.
These are the indirect existential pains resulting from the subconscious fear of death.
Note above.
It works in degrees with different people.
To be afraid to die is natural, i.e. to avoid death as in 1.
However the Christian [majority] is not likely to have a fear of physical death, since John 3:16 promised eternal life in heaven based on his 100% faith in Christ/Jesus. Surely a Christian must believed 100% [faith] in the promise of Jesus/Christ.
That you still had existential questions imply your rational mind was working against blind faith. This is perhaps the reason you was able to unchain yourself from the grasp of the terrible impulses of the subconscious fear of death.
For the typical Christian-proper, his subconscious fear of death is very active and powerful and the only way is the contract with Jesus/God’s promise of eternal life re John 3:16 entrench by the Christian’s strong blind faith.
This is why it takes a lot for the typical Christian to break away from the above bondage of faith and often they have to go through terrible stage of cold-turkey, for years in some cases.
Prismatic,
You confirm the validity of your own hypothesis?
As if that would lead to certain answers? What did I specifically state that leads you to say that?
How do you know that these emotions are not generated by the conscious mind?
Then how can you generalise?
Perhaps, but it could also mean that … oh I give up with you…
It is not perceived knowledge.
Mine is justified true belief, i.e. knowledge with varying degree of confidence levels.
I am not sure of your question.
One thing is I had covered tons and tons of materials and knowledge of the subconscious minds from various fields of knowledge.
Then from the above I will rationalize to produce justified true beliefs.
I am not sure, you’ll need to be more specific.
But we can rely on the principle of who is a Christian objective via the Gospel.
It may not be applicable to all.
However from the example of instant reactions, we can infer something has happened inside the brain when the person surrender and accept Christ/Jesus.
To triangulate and infer what it is, we have to refer to many other evidences of experiences and principles to arrive at a conclusion, i.e. it is reducible to the subconscious fear of death.
There are scientific research into the neural wirings associated with fear within the lower and mid brain and how they are manifested to the conscious level in various [directly and indirectly] ways.
I have already made the argument from the genetic striving to live to avoid death and therefrom the fear of death.
Thereupon, that subconscious fear is verified by Science re the neural wirings at the subconscious levels.
There are also research that discuss how this subconscious fear of death exudes indirectly as indirectly existential pains.
You’ll need to do more research on this yourself.
If I were to explain the above in full details, that would warrant a book-size post.
Yes as justified and note the logic and rationale of it.
How else it is false?
Btw, I have also stated the premise can possibly be tested empirically and very likely to be true, i.e. Scientifically.
It is based on what I know of the unconscious mind and what you don’t seem to know.
You keep having doubts with the workings of the subconscious mind.
If that is the case, then it would be in something like a movie, where actors consciously generate various feelings of happiness, dread, anxieties or fear on a pseudo basis.
The conscious can feel and be conscious of those feelings but the conscious mind do not generate them except where one deliberately generate them.
If one is consciously generating those dreadful feelings, one can consciously stop them.
Note in the case of anxieties and trembling with some kind of fear when one is faced with the need to do public speaking. It is not easy to control such fears because they emanate from the subconscious mind like indirectly existential pains as anxieties, etc.
I read, one of the greatest fears polled is ‘fear of public speaking’
WHY? here is the main reason,
Why Are We Scared of Public Speaking?
- Physiology
Fear and anxiety involve the arousal of the autonomic nervous system in response to a potentially threatening stimulus. When confronted with a threat, our bodies prepare for battle. This hyperarousal leads to the emotional experience of fear, and it interferes with our ability to perform comfortably in front of audiences. Eventually, it prevents people from pursuing opportunities for public speaking.
(read more at)
psychologytoday.com/us/blog … c-speaking
If we dig deeper, the above fear is traceable as a form of the subconscious fear of death, in avoiding death so to live as in my premise 1.
Intensity and degrees are part of reality, note the Bell Curves and the Shades of Grey.
I can’t be wrong by referring to this general principle.
You will note I have justified all my counters with facts, evidence and generally accepted principles.
It is your discretion to give up.
As for me, it is beneficial since I can refresh from my database and polished up my arguments.
I seldom give up as far as the path forward is rational. This is why I spent so much time digging deeper and deeper into reality, note 2+ years full time on Buddhism, 3 years full time on Kant, 3+ years full time on Islam and much time on others.