Finally

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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:05 pm

"been so meticulously planted into their psyche.

but you gotta fight fire with fire and hold your breath from the stench of politics until this thing resolves itself. the days of honest socialist coups lenin style are over. we have to do the whole 'gradual reform' thing, like a movie that's three hours but shoulda been an hour and a half, tops, because all the actors suck and the plot is lame."

Sometimes, the work just does itself.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:06 pm

"he's right, mags. people and culture today that represent leftist ideology are experiencing a kind of practicio-inert created by the three hundred year environment of western capitalism, a culture that has poisoned people to such depths that they can't utter a word without plotting and scheming against someone or something."

This is almost endearing. Like wanting to "help" by building huts in guatemala.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:09 pm

I'm hoping your misunderstanding of what the world was before capitalism is just the product of lack of imagination.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:14 pm

Though there is something pre-renaissantic about your thought-processes:

Expiation of sin. You build a hut. You go to a Thurnburginator march. You say something hateful about Trump.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:16 pm

That's also what's funny about Zizek. He's not an anti-christian, he's a Calvinist.

He sees the thing, with is stupid fucking Starbucks story. He sees it. But he only thinks it's wrong because... It's not enough expiation!

Like Luther bitching about indulgences. It wasn't the blackmail that bothered him. It was that the blackmail did not ask enough.
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Re: Finally

Postby promethean75 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:17 pm

hey you do what you can when there are no existing leagues of crafty socialists to join. ya know i actually became a member of a local anarchist group once, but all they wanted to do was march around with picket signs. i was like 'ummmm.... no. i'm going to go do something else. take care now. bye-bye then.'

but your effort to discredit my sentiments for the working class by pointing out how little i am able to contribute to their cause/conditions, as if i could choose to do more if only i 'weren't so selfish', is impressive. that's some slippery shit. well played, cappy, and true to the form.

... and it was the yucatan, btw. i wuz gonna join the zapatistas! *fires machine gun and rears back on horse*
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Re: Finally

Postby promethean75 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:21 pm

I'm hoping your misunderstanding of what the world was before capitalism is just the product of lack of imagination.


we don't do historical materialism at ilp, young man. that would be like trying to fit an aircraft carrier into a pond.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:28 pm

The fucking Zapatistas.

I think my ex-girlfriend is with them now.

Jesus Christ.

Anyway, you misunderstand my accusation.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:31 pm

Thaat's the thing with you fucking gringos.

If you had the slightest inkling of what the monster of which the Zapatistas are a small part has wrought on us. It's not about helping the working man. It's about your "sentiments."
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:32 pm

Riding on horseback with a machine gun.

Jesus motherfucking Christ.

I used to hope you all went and got fucking shot. But then I fucked one of you and I'm conflicted.

But you, being a man, the least you could do is THINK THIS SHIT THROUGH.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:39 pm

My accusation is the opposite.

That you have surrendered your capacity for selfishness and relegated your capacity for thought, action, and power.

To the most disgusting contraption ever brought forth by mankind.

Why?

Because you know you live in a historical paradise and you don't want to own it.
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Re: Finally

Postby Fixed Cross » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:53 pm

In the fall of 2016, Parodites wrote:Indeed as Fixed said, Trump's election will not bring the change that is required, but will open the political process to that change, which is necessary. We have an opportunity in the US to do this in a very civilized manner, through an election- as opposed to armed rebellion.

I do not see the possibility of a world-culture being brought into existence or have a desire that a species wide system of values be instituted either organically or by some kind of directed intention. Besides, it is impossible to create the kind of globalist institutions that could combat things like climate change without diminishing the power of the masses, the public, the individuals. Globalism is by its very nature a concentration of political force in the hands of the few. Death is preferable. Power doesn't come out of a void somewhere. In order for these elites to have more power, I have to give them some of mine; we have to give some more of our power, our rights, our individuality, our emancipatory potential, some more of our father's and forefather's blood, to them. Not only am I not interested in empowering these soul-less agencies on the flimsy misplaced hope that they'll combat the threat of a warming planet on our behalf as opposed to just stuff their fat fucking pockets, I want them to be completely disbanded and virtually all political power returned to where it belongs, the hands of the people.

You, I, a lot of other people have surpassed culture and could orchestrate a fair global system on a philosophic rulership, yes. But the difference I think in our perspectives is that I recognize that this overcoming of culture and national boundaries will never occur on the level of the species: because of that, any global system will inevitably concentrate power in the hands of a very small elite political class and take power and freedom away from individuals. When a person who has not overcome their culture through universal ethics and philosophy has their culture taken away by the impositions of an elite class, by politicians and immigrants, they simply become alienated and disaffected and it creates social chaos that can become civil unrest and real violence.

What you are free to do is meaningless. What you are free from is the only thing that matters. That we are free to numb ourselves with Netflix and iphones and whatever flavor of ice cream we want is irrelevant. We are free from- very little. As far as global institutions doing good in the world, for every "good" they have wrought, I could point to ten negatives. We could fight climate change- if you actually think it's that big of a threat, if we allowed private industries to simply drive themselves with competition and invent better solar technologies.

I agree with Fixed about globalism's failure, but I depart insofar as I lack any desire to create a metalogic with which to organize a global scale system on a philosophic rather than merely political basis. I do not desire either the present globalist system, a super-federalist system like Capable's, or a globalist state founded on philosophic rulership. My intention is to restore for civilization the dynamic and destructive surplus-energetics that has been lost in the 20th and 21st century and to instantiate the wheel of the next kharmic aeon, maybe we can even crucify the political elites and use them as spokes for it. That a philosopher condescends to rule is already an aberration to me. Philosophers exist between the human world and the world of the Gods, we shepherd the daemon of man between the worlds, we maintain the balance of the creative and the destructive potential of each kharmic aeon. We witness to man, how it can be used, and broken.

http://beforethelight.forumotion.com/t7 ... as-all-law

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The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:00 pm

Blegh. Enough.

I'll just say, historical dialectics is about as complex a philosophical notion as hitting a rock with a stick. "Ooooo, it's so complex!" No it's fucking not. The reason it's such an effective weapon is its retarded simplicity.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:03 pm

"That a philosopher condescends to rule is already an aberration to me."

Yes, this is true. But what Parodites seems not to notice is that condescending to serve, or to explain one's self in terms of what one does FOR mankind, is equally abhorrent.
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Re: Finally

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:07 pm

This is not an age for Philosophy. One reason Nietzsche set himself so unreachably high is to prevent philosophy, a sort of dam. Today, philosophy would be a cruelty.

this is an age for to toughen up man and make him capable of philosophy, or for man to fail. For the last man.

Today, philosophy is still only practicable as twilight. Reminiscence. Of the past and of the future. The possible future. I don't know tech stuff.
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Re: Finally

Postby promethean75 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:36 am

"That philosophy died yesterday, since Hegel or Marx, Nietzsche, or Heidegger—and philosophy should still wander toward the meaning of its death—or that it has always lived knowing itself to be dying... that philosophy died one day, within history, or that it has always fed on its own agony, on the violent way it opens history by opposing itself to nonphilosophy, which is its past and its concern, its death and wellspring; that beyond the death, or dying nature, of philosophy, perhaps even because of it, thought still has a future, or even, as is said today, is still entirely to come because of what philosophy has held in store; or, more strangely still, that the future itself has a future—all these are unanswerable questions. By right of birth, and for one time at least, these are problems put to philosophy as problems philosophy cannot resolve, and therefore must rely on promethean75 to be answered." - derrida

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Re: Finally

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:This is not an age for Philosophy. One reason Nietzsche set himself so unreachably high is to prevent philosophy, a sort of dam. Today, philosophy would be a cruelty.

Is a cruelty. On the weak, the unworthy. A selecting mechanism.

this is an age for to toughen up man and make him capable of philosophy, or for man to fail. For the last man.

Hahaha. What could possibly be tougher than philosophy?

Today, philosophy is still only practicable as twilight. Reminiscence. Of the past and of the future. The possible future. I don't know tech stuff.

For all his excitingness, Nietzsche is technical at heart, German. Nietzsche was my stepping stone, for lack of a better word - the only man who ever wrote anything down who offered me a challenge, a nut to crack. Value Ontology is what Nietzsche worked to enable. Indeed it had slipped my mind in all our reminiscent playfulness that your approach has long been to look away from my true work, from my power, and imagine you could "liberate" me. I went along with that because, I suppose, I could use a break. Being what I am, I never put down the hammer without taking up some other instrument. Music has always come natural to me, but it is, like everything besides philosophy, too easy.

Once, you made attempts to prove yourself as a thinking man.

Pezer wrote:The dimension of time, ultimate expression of movement, is purpose in terms of value. Purpose is what determines the movement forward in time from value node to value node. As one moves along this dimension, as with the spacial ones, the entire perspective of the dimensions themselves change, what seemed a long before becomes a close now or a never. The direction of the movement is how the valuer relates to the valued, valuing is what staples the valuing to the biospheres of effectance where they are.

It seems essential both to remember that no valued is 100% real and that it is 100% essential for the valuing, the moment of life and subsistence. What is is and may be, the valuing is within biospheres of effectence as opposed to no-where.

This is essential to understand what it means to work hard and intricately on one's lies, especially while knowing they are lies. Truth is what happens, and we only know what happens through what we value which comes before the valuing happens. We as valuers are part of the biospheres and thus are indirectly part of other valuings, so valuer and valued may not be as seperate as the act of valuing would seem to suggest. Lies may be here closer and here farther from the truth, and we might be able to tell by how well they coincide with our feelings of movement; that is, purpose. Beyond truth and lies, it may also be true that some lies are not lies at all but some other manifestation, an earlier branch of the chemical stuff that makes lies, and this pre-existence is what makes something that pretends to be truth, only-in-the-moment-existing, a lie. Evolution works with what it has, and we may well assume that what we used for lieing had previous and continuing uses in our biologies. To value this very system of functioning is a fine-tunning of the system itself, to know that we lie itself already begins to change all purposes. Can a truth be said with a lie? No. Now we know that the lie that pretends to be truth is aiming within valuing, not valued. This kind of contradiction between the content of the lie and the purpose, the valued and the valuing, is what leads to the twilights of idols. A lie wants to be a truth, this keeps it close to what it imitates in effect and allows its valuer to, a priori, see it.

Pezer wrote:When one thing is moving, it can move more if it is being propped by something paralyzed solid. Life is like this, we paralyze in different places to move more freely in others. Value Ontology implies that the direction of movement in any relevant sense is determined by purpose / intention, and it is these things which then determine what stays and what moves.

What we have frozen and still have frozen has fulfilled its purpose, the awkwardness of modern life is that the things we collectively value are all dead, they are no longer the pressures which shape us (except to the extent that we intend them to). This intentional paralysis is knowingly outdated and kept so out of ironically outdated fears, fears of famine, war and oppression. Even the fear of crime is outdated... But many fears are indeed relevant, held silly by tradition of when these fears were first noted and others were still more relevant. The fear of not living up to our dearly departed deities. The fear that looking past what they were intended to be thought to be might open the veils onto some supernatural demon or monster. The fear that we might miss the opportunity to sow this peak. The fear that all responsibility was thought to lie in places that proved not to exist.

Movement is jolly, which is expressed as adrenaline, whether wild or calm, when working with fear. There are things we know we can freeze for more accurate movement, and things we can unfreeze. Respect for olden times, love of the foretold, unseen lord (which is a representation of the human authority figures had), attachment to the feeling of wonder over the object of wonder, these and other patterns we allow to freeze our own prerogative to freeze and unfreeze the areas of our knowledge and consciousness in ways which we feel adapt most to reality as we feel/know it.

Pezer wrote:Who we value as valuer values despite this valuing, and depends on valueds valued by us. The valued determines the valuer's relationship with valuing. This self-referentiality is the will only willing will, and power is the relationship between will's action (valuing) and its existence.

As a side note, I refer to that existence as Chaos. Valuing it so, as a living thing which is unpredictable, which feeds me even as I act with no knowledge of it only if I will accordingly, decreases my waste of thought by several orders of magnitude.
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Re: Finally

Postby Meno_ » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:59 pm

Pedro Engel said,


"Blegh. Enough.

I'll just say, historical dialectics is about as complex a philosophical notion as hitting a rock with a stick. "Ooooo, it's so complex!" No it's fucking not. The reason it's such an effective weapon is its retarded simplicity."

Is it so, really?

After all , immaterial dialectics have been around quite a while and the fact that it did not go down without a whimper, is proof positive, that so much blood, sweat , and tears it took, to transvalue it into substantial material.

Does this kill political philosophy and jurisprudence?

Sure, -'real'-, down to earth romantic revival is an abject notion, which, a rotted out phenomenology, sent a message of fait accompli, but for real,
Such appearent shift, did not reduce the eidectic along with the phenomenal apprehension.
World war two, then, from an armchair, could be represented to young history students, as merely a test of conflicting ideologies.
Zizek, has been reincarnated by Trump, and he really has not read history, to ascertain that he will not have to repeat it!
And that such be missed in the twilight years of rationality can be illustrated by the persistence of racial and other kinds of de-facto oppressor/ sion of dejure states of political affairs.

One can argue of and for change toward betterment for all, but arguments cease to be effected when social reality does not support the change.

And, vice versa.
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Re: Finally

Postby Fixed Cross » Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:13 pm

this is an age for to toughen up man and make him capable of philosophy, or for man to fail. For the last man.

How are you going to toughen anyone up by avoiding the toughest work before you?

VO expresses the utmost hardness of Nietzsche's demands by actually making them demands. I don't "inspire", I don't give a "dangerous phrase" which can be taken by all kind off lackadaisical poets to mean anything they like. The logic Ive hammered out of Nietzsche's marble is inhospitable to those who insist on standing aside from themselves, like our good friend above here, for whose sake Ive transformed you into an angel simply by addressing you forcefully. How easy it is for a hard man to make angels.

But you are no angel, Pedro I. Rengel. You once had hardness in you, and I will go back to addressing you in the natural assumption that hardness endures. Im done playing games, Im done trying to seduce the weak, the pointless, the superfluous to strength. Im done trying to make marble out of pudding, Im done trying to prepare a heap of coal for what will always remain the privilege of the diamond.
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Re: Finally

Postby promethean75 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:23 pm

I feel like I just read the transcript to a Shakespeare play.

What you need is a good job, Jake. Give you something productive to do and make you feel better about yourself. All this high-falutin philosophy talk is nauseatingly overdramatic and terribly out of character.

Shit, maybe I could get you a job with United Fruit. I got a buddy with United Fruit. Get you started. Start with strawberries, you might work your way up to these goddamn bananas!

When, boy? When...are you going to get your act together?
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Re: Finally

Postby Meno_ » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:46 am

promethean75 wrote:I feel like I just read the transcript to a Shakespeare play.

What you need is a good job, Jake. Give you something productive to do and make you feel better about yourself. All this high-falutin philosophy talk is nauseatingly overdramatic and terribly out of character.

Shit, maybe I could get you a job with United Fruit. I got a buddy with United Fruit. Get you started. Start with strawberries, you might work your way up to these goddamn bananas!

When, boy? When...are you going to get your act together?



Well hate to be a spoiler or spec ulatus
Interruptus, but this website is supposed to be ILP {I love philosophy) and not the joys of fruit pickin' for pete''s sake.

But honestly, there is merit (some) in your detractions.

.
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Re: Finally

Postby promethean75 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:54 am

Pete (kropotkin) works in produce and he's an unstoppable philosophical machine. Arentcha, Pete.
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Re: Finally

Postby Meno_ » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:10 am

promethean75 wrote:Pete (kropotkin) works in produce and he's an unstoppable philosophical machine. Arentcha, Pete.



The double play can also be sliced , so it really devoid of argument

But I can understand whwre you-'re coming from.
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Re: Finally

Postby promethean75 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:14 am

I just felt I should say that for Pete's sake.
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Re: Finally

Postby Meno_ » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:18 am

promethean75 wrote:I just felt I should say that for Pete's sake.




Well said, I do declare.
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