Did god really condemn mankind? Is god a just god?

We have different ideas of who are what Jesus is. Jesus is a way, not a person; and the way is unconditional, universal love. I would not argue for the fundamentalist misunderstandings of Jesus, which you constantly raise as a true description of who Jesus is or was.

Neither would I, given that there likely was never a miracle working Jesus and his morals are not verry moral.

Regards
DL

Then you are arguing against a straw man.

Do not be so hard on yourself.

Regards
DL

Ierrellus,

Was that actually Paul’s mindset? That Jesus would be a loser? Anyway, how is that to be accomplished, Ierrellus? What of those who could care less about being saved?
I always liked the parable of the good shepherd. He was both caring and very responsible. Something really profound to me about that. But there is a big difference between a little lamb being saved by its shepherd and Christ saving everybody. But even a shepherd might not be able to save every sheep if they scattered.

How can it make Jesus the loser? He supposedly (according to the church) came to save us all but that does not mean that all would be saved. I believe that the Catholic Church calls that the Sin of Presumption. There is the right of will not to care about being saved. "You can bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink it.

Why did you not stop at CHILD? No decent human would beat a child PERIOD.

That is actually being far beyond hyperbolic, Ierrellus. Where have you read that? If there can be a god and a hell, those statistic are so way beyond truth ~~ 95%??? 95% of the whole human race - just about every person who was ever born.

How illogical would it be for a Christ to come down to Earth and make of himself a complete human being to try to save humanity only to fail so miserably? What a total waste that would be.

What churches are you speaking of? The ones which still perform exorcisms? lol Show me those statistics. I was raised in a catholic orphanage and went to church for years afterwards. Never have I ever heard something so ludicrous. Has it been proven that the people who run these churches are psychic or can see into the future? Who in their mind would want to frequent such a place? Perhaps they would be the ones to need an exorcism. No, I do not believe in exorcisms or in demons.

If there ever was a Christ who existed, one might be able to speak in terms of him being moral since supposedly he was fully human but you cannot really speak in terms of God, the First Cause or whatever, as being moral since God would be beyond moral unless perhaps that God is a personal loving one but even then God would beyond human terms. We ourselves attribute these terms to a God.

The real question here, Ierrellus, is: Why are you, if you really do believe that Churches preach that, being so quick to judge what you think the churches are saying in such a negative, faulty way without even questioning just how true that statement IS and where it came from?

In Jesus’ own words, the parable of the ninety and nine suggests universal salvation. Yes, that was Paul’s mindset.
Evangelicals still preach that the vast majority of humans will spend their afterlife eternity in the tortures of a fiery hell.
Since this is Greatest I am’s thread, I address the fundamentalism he seems to believe all Christianity consists of.
Saved from what? Good question. Read Matthew Fox’s “Original Blessing” to see how this Augustinian, Miltonian mythology of sin and redemption originated. To answer your why question, I was raised in strict fundamentalism in the Bible belt; hence my extreme reactions, since it caused me much distress. I know what their teachings are/were.

GIA,

I was lost but have been found and saved. lol

What sin? I probably would have to say and do say the sin of Ignorance. Is Ignorance a sin? The sin of not having “truly” known myself, not having taken the time to learn about who I am and because of that not taking the proper action to do what it takes to truly care about myself and to live according to Sapere Aude.

We ourselves are the ones who condemn mankind. We are the one who need to learn to be just which I personally do not think is such an easy thing to learn.

So do I. All lies.

Christians are following a Jewish god and should read scriptures the way Jews read them.
Not literally; then you would not see the original sin concept.
You would see the Original Jewish concept of Original Virtue.

Regards
DL

Not when, just, to the mainstream religions, includes homophobia, misogyny and denying half the planet equality.

Regards
DL

So, what is the cure for mainstream religious beliefs? Do you have a better way, something more and better than railing against the old way?

Yes. A return to older and better thinking so as to help those lost to literalism, and do the bulk of the harm, return to better moral thinking.

An example of that is Gnostic Christianity. The best ideology on the planet.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.”
Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia … =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

Rumor has it that Origen castrated himself.If so, it was from a literal translation of “If the eye offends thee, pluck it out.” (paraphrase)

Most of history is likely wrong as the winners write it.

Regards
DL

Ouch!
If he had taken it “literally” it would have been his eye he plucked out. We always observe the spirit of the law if not the letter to suit our purposes.
I suppose he had little need for the “other”.
Anyway, a rumor is just that - a rumor.

So what of history can we trust to be accurate renditions of what was said and done?

If there are a variety of agreeing sources, then one might assume it to be true.

In the case of gods, there is no peer revue for any religion.

I trust the archeologists, who are peer reviewed, who have shown that the bible is historically incorrect in many instances.

If even one lie is shown, it discredits the whole book as an history.

I see a lie the moment a talking serpent and donkey are spoken of as real.

Regards
DL

More tirade against the old narrative. How is Gnostic Christianity better?

Try this and see which ideology is better.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and reverse a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David’s baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

Regards
DL

Greatest I AM,

I am sure that it is. But could you not say that some archeologists, to further their own fame and cause, also lie at times about things?

Where have you ever read something like that?
I doubt that to be the case although I do agree that people need to be as impeccable and honest in their researching and investigation as they can be.
Perhaps you are deliberately trying to be hyperbolic.
Would you throw the baby out with the bathwater, Greatest I Am?

How do you know that this supposed lie was actually meant to be a lie and not just some error in judgment or perception?
But still, would you throw that whole book, whichever book it is, out? Granted if the whole book is a mess of lies, we would throw that one out. I would help you.
Would you demolish the Leaning Tower of Pisa? There was an engineering mistake there I believe.

Intent is important. Lies are deliberate things. Could the above in any case not be seen as a Lie?
But perhaps it is simply meant as metaphorical or a teaching tool.
Can fantasy which comes from one’s imagination be considered to be a lie?

I wonder what a talking serpent or donkey would say to you. Would you even listen? :laughing:

Regards…

A D

“I am sure that it is. But could you not say that some archeologists, to further their own fame and cause, also lie at times about things?”

Sure, hence the peer revue.

" D L – If even one lie is shown, it discredits the whole book as an history.

Your “Where have you ever read something like that?”

It is Jewish tradition as well as law in many states.

Have you ever read of the cases where, if a coroner is found to have screwed up on one case, all his other past cases have to be reviewed and are subject to appeal?

“Would you throw the baby out with the bathwater, Greatest I Am?”

If a genocidal and infanticidal baby Yahweh god, yes, after smashing his head against stones the way Yahweh had many baby heads smashed. If you believe the myth that is.

“But still, would you throw that whole book, whichever book it is, out?”

No. It is a great consolidation of ancient wisdom writings. Christians just read it the wrong way.

Let me show what I think along with a question for you.

I keep a bible in the house even though I think this quote quite correct.

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

Then again, I am a Gnostic Christian and know how to read the filth in it.

Said of Gnostic Christian versus Christian bible reading practices.

“Both read the Bible day and night; but you read black where I read white.”
William Blake.

I would take this further and advise you to read any scriptures from as many POV as is within you. Question everything including yourself.

The bible, if read as a book of wisdom, does have much wisdom though.

You just have to read it the way Gnostics do and reverse a lot of the Christian morals.

Christians call evil good while Gnostic Christians call evil, evil.

I E. Gnostic Christians think that bible God, the demiurge to us, is quite immoral for thinking that torturing King David’s baby for 6 days before finally killing it is good justice. Gnostic Christians think that evil while Christians think that a good form of justice.

Which group do you think is right?

“But perhaps it is simply meant as metaphorical or a teaching tool.
Can fantasy which comes from one’s imagination be considered to be a lie?”

Fantasy has value for sure, but only if it is known to be fantasy, which is not the case we were discussing.

Have a look at my Gnostic Christian thinking about literalism.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.”

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia … =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL