Facile.
Greatest I am
No, not really. I do, for the most part, believe that people who actually do “see” a personal loving God want to get close to that God and wish no harm to anyone. That is not immorality.
It only becomes immorality when a particular creature, for instance, decides to bomb a city in the name of God. There is a distinction.
What I think that it is though insofar as the former is concerned is not taking the time to think things out, to think clearly and slowly, and to look at everything which surrounds them, including contradictions, in order to come up with a better judgment call.
We all do that and you yourself are not innocent of it. We are all biased in our thinking or many of us are at different times.
I agree with your last.
The Christian bias of idol worshiping a genocidal god while proclaiming he is good shows how immoral their ideology has made them.
Regards
DL
GIA
Who is it who proclaimed God a genocidal one?
The victims and the bible.
Have you read of all the times god kills en mass?
Regards
DL
GIA
So, what are you saying here? That you actually believe this garbage? Do you believe in a genocidal God? I sometimes get the sense that you do believe in some kind of a God. You seem to be so angry and you seem to feed that anger.
If you do not believe in God though, what do you say to people who do and who believe that their God is responsible for all of the misery in the world?
I would like you to show me how this is true, how they have become immoral because of this. Give me an example. The way I look at it, immoral IS as immoral does.
I am not a literalist and read the bible as myth, not history.
I am a Gnostic Christian and hold no supernatural beliefs whatsoever.
What I am angry with is a religion that is homophobic and misogynous and has somehow convinced half decent people that a genocidal god is somehow good.
If theists continue to praise a god who they see as directly creating all the evils of the world, then I would tell them that they are morally corrupted by their beliefs.
As to your last. Morals are a learned thing to a large extent. Secular law and few people will praise a genocidal entity yet Christianity does.
Where else would Christians learn such a foul way to think?
Regards
DL
I will respond to this shortly.
I read the bible when I did believe in … I hesitated here to capitalize 'G’od lol. It is confusing when you do not believe. Do you capitalize or do you not capitalize. God is sacred and real to many.
I do not read it now though I do realize that much wisdom can be found in it.
Can you tell me why you do read the bible since you do not believe at least not now.
I am the same way. There are times when I wonder if I have sacrificed something good but not where the weird stuff is concerned.
Why waste your breathe being angry with the religion per se. Be angry with those who perpetuate the Lie. Try to teach those who automatically believe these things because they feel that the bible is "the inspired word of _od. lol
I wonder how many of these people use the bible as an excuse to maintain theseout-dated beliefs?
I think that the problem here, GIA, is that they are not really connecting the dots and perhaps neither are you. I really do not believe that most intelligent, good, moral, ethical (did I leave anyone out) people who believe in God are actually seeing this God as deliberately creating all the evils of the world. Some of them are seeing God as “allowing” it and some have not taken it far enough to see much of anything. They just believe .
I am not even sure that one can actually say this because like I said they cannot connect the dots. They do not realize that in saying one thing about God, they may be actually creating a negative aspect of God. I posted something in ILP the other and after having read it, I realized that I portrayed God as being sadistic ~~ in other words, from my point of view, on the other side of that coin, without even realizing it, thinking one thing also created another thing. I may not have expressed that too well. The saying comes to me "Forgive them for they KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO or in the case THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY THINK.
We praise a lot of things and people who do not deserve it. I think it all comes down to not realizing how we are thinking. They are not literally praising a genocidal God.
[/quote]
Possibly from not learning how to really thing not being taught how to truly think by parents and schools.
See above.
GIA
We are all wrong because ultimatey we cannot really know. Anyway, in many ways, you and I think alike but we all have blind spots and boxes which we just cannot climb up out of it.
Can’t be evil and wise and can’t understand something without becoming wise, so “evil” comes from ignorance and if it comes from ignorance then it is not evil it is just bad, evil implies understood intent to do bad, it’s like when a child puts it’s hand on something hot, the child’s ignorance compels their curiosity and natural instincts, “evil” works similarly out of ignorance, yet then it is not truly evil.
The god is only good, for it is wisdom and wisdom is only good, can’t be both bad and understanding/wise. You can be bad and have knowledge, but my question would then be, do you understand that knowledge? If bad, then no because bad and wise don’t go together.
Our schools and many parents are fine.
It is the lying and child abusing religions that need our negative attention.
African witches and Jesus
youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gvtYrga8
Brain Washing ( Jesus Camp ‘‘Highlights’’ )
youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac
Death to Gays.
youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE
This shit should be illegal.
Regards
DL
I think it is easy to know that a genocidal and infanticidal god is a prick.
I will stay in my box till all the fools recognize this simple moral fact.
Those who do not follow suit are not living by the Golden Rule.
Regards
DL
I agree that Yahweh is not wise nor moral, which shows that the people who invented him either wanted a prick for a god or a moral monster who would hate everyone they hated.
I think the term you are seeking is men’s rea. That is Latin for evil mind or evil intent. Without that, secular law will not convict for even horrendous crimes. They usually go for insanity.
Regards
DL
Greatest I Am,
Like a thorn in the finger from a rose?
Not necessarily. What about those who have been raised in a culture where hate and vengeance is the only answer? Why do terrorists believe in such a god who would kill and destroy? They were raised that way. They were raised in a patriarchal family where father ruled or they were brainwashed and fueled from others who did. Father may have been loved, as despicable as he might have bee, though also feared. Perhaps learned at their father’s knee that their god was a vengeful one and demanded strict obedience and exactment of punishment.
I think that we kind of see “what” we are.
You may get hungry. Can I bring you something to eat?
Well, I do not really see you as staying in your box as you are saying the things which you do in here.
I do not think that we are automatically born as moral beings? We are taught that way ~~~ or not.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”?
Is that your golden rule or does it differ even slightly?
Our first moral decisions are led by our instincts. They are our first teacher or guide.
youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg
As to the Golden Rule, I follow the more modern version of Harm/Care leading our thinking before we apply reciprocity, which is what the Golden Rule represents.
Scriptures have Jesus turning the other cheek against evil, which to most Christians, means rewarding evil and I do not believe that that is a good thing to do as it goes against the reciprocity idea.
Christians do not seem to know or care that turning the other cheek is really a Jewish insult to the hitter. Christians have ignored the Jewish view of this Jewish religion.
Regards
DL
Greatest I Am,
I watched that. Such cute babies. As far as I am concerned, the jury is still out there. Sometimes we have a tendency to see what we want to see, to see what we want to prove.
I wonder if babies have the capacity to “interpret” what they are seeing at that age as being right or wrong even unconsciously.
As for choosing the stuffed animal, how many times and on how many children was this done? How do we really know why the child chose one over the other?
I do realize that the above is not what the thread is about.
Like baby animals? How old are you saying that we are in the above case? Are we really thinking in terms of morality or in terms of what our needs are? Babies have needs to be loved and comforted. That is where their instincts take them.
I agree with this. Actions have consequences. Think before you act. “To do no harm”.
I do not think that Christians who do not respond in the manner of an eye for an eye necessarily feel that they are rewarding evil. Why would you have to think in that way? Perhaps they are trying to teach by example.
But I do agree with you where true evil is concerned. There can be no turning the other cheek because then evil will continue and flourish.
What was the example in the bible where Jesus supposedly turned the other cheek? What was the reason for it? Did Jesus always turn the other cheek in all circumstances?
I never realized that if it is in fact the case. That is interesting. So it can simply be about ignoring the person which says that he is not important enough to be bothered about. Which actually can be a wise thing to do. lol
Regards to you too.
Arcturas Descending
“I wonder if babies have the capacity to “interpret” what they are seeing at that age as being right or wrong even unconsciously.”
I would say yes, with Jung and Freud’s Father/Mother Complex and our selfish gene, our primary gene, in mind. Body language might be instinctive as well.
“As for choosing the stuffed animal, how many times and on how many children was this done? How do we really know why the child chose one over the other?”
I do realize that the above is not what the thread is about.”
No sweat buddy.
I recognize my bias. I would not insult you with a list of links or a read this or that book response.
I have been looking about for many years. I just hope our biases are not too far apart and one of us learns something from the exchange. I think that a pleasure and hope one of us gets it.
Gnostic Christians are naturalists; that is a part of our ideology. We recognize ourselves and all humans as the top of the line that nature has yet to best. You might have heard of the Cathar Parfait.
My quick answer to your question is I don’t know but I have seen enough to have me lean to this thinking. Giving you my many sources would be an insult and would not help you.
I am pleased to look at anything that refutes that science though.
“Like baby animals? How old are you saying that we are in the above case? Are we really thinking in terms of morality or in terms of what our needs are?”
We are baby animals, so yes, like baby animals.
I guess that old here would be about 12ish as the age of reason pops out about then. Males and females vary as well.
I like to use immunity to the Princess Alice syndrome.
youtube.com/watch?v=aWx_uVDh4Cw
“Think before you act. “To do no harm”.
Knowing that we will all do harm, I prefer Try to mitigate the harm you will do.
I am a contrary sod. Apologies. 
“So it can simply be about ignoring the person which says that he is not important enough to be bothered about. Which actually can be a wise thing to do. Lol”
I don’t know. I try not to sink too much into psychobabble stuff. That is as bad as the supernatural.
As long as you and I know it is all a collective hunch.
I am French and would think more like, did something just touch me, and was that you, Troue de Q, as the eyes dare the Tabarnac to do it again. Jesus was a runner, but also had a temper. He was married. 
I hate how the quote format work for my own failings. Apologies for this lay out.
Regards
DL
Greatest I Am,
Why would I take that as an insult? The question was more or less rhetorical.
What does this mean ~~ that you have been observing many things?
Well, I would hope that both of us would learn something from the exchange.
But who is the “one of us” who you were referring to? Hmmm? 
I did not at first understand the above. I would have emphasized “that”.
I sense that we do think along the same lines. There is that “one of us” again.
How would you define the “it” which you are referring to?
As in the below:
In philosophy, naturalism is the “idea or belief that only natural (as opposed to supernatural or spiritual) laws and forces operate in the world.”[1] Adherents of naturalism (i.e., naturalists) assert that natural laws are the rules that govern the structure and behavior of the natural universe, that the changing universe at every stage is a product of these laws.[2]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy
I suppose that I might then also call myself a naturalist.
But all humans, Greatest I Am? Some humans, as far as I am concerned, are way below the animals in the food chain.
But what about a beautiful dolphin, an elephant, a wolf?
No, never heard of them. I am not that knowledgeable. But i just looked them up.
So you obviously are not a cather which can be seen by your own writings.
Why would you hold it to be as late as 12 years of age? But individually speaking, it may vary a little. I might think that it would have to based on the child’s maturity level, historical background, brain patterns, lol, et cetera.
[b]What Is the ‘Age of Reason?’
Around the age of seven, give or take a year, children enter a developmental phase known as the age of reason. “The age of reason refers to the developmental cognitive, emotional, and moral stage in which children become more capable of rational thought, have internalized a conscience, and have better capacity to control impulses (than in previous stages),” explains Dana Dorfman, PhD, psychotherapist, and co-host of the podcast 2 Moms on the Couch.
It’s the time when a child starts to truly grasp the difference between right and wrong, and begins to realize that other people have their own feelings that might not match his or hers.
scholastic.com/parents/fami … eason.html [/b]
That was a cute little video with the children but they are just children albeit we both know that many adults would act in that way even though not believing that Alice was there.
Insofar as the PAS, in other words, it does not matter who may be watching. You will always act in the same way ~~ ethically? Of course, what he says is true. There are individuals who, if they could get away with something, like robbing a bank and no one would know it, they would do it. There are also those who never would.
There are those who believe in an omniscient God and who believe in hell and still act immorally.
There are those who do not believe in a God or do question one’s existence and still would not act immorally, unethically or without integrity.
It all comes down to an individual’s human factor, one’s values, and one’s sense and knowledge of Self.
I think that we need more than to just purge the world of evil by doing good, though that does help of course. I think that that can be kind of a meaningless automatic response in many people because it is something that is expected of them either from others or by a God. I also think that it is really, really important to know ourselves, to see our dark side and what it makes us capable of doing as humans and to reflect on that.
We will not do harm in all circumstances. I think that weighing the pros and cons before one acts works too. I try to be a benign consequentialist 
although we cannot foresee everything.
Why are you apologizing? Have you done something to hurt me?
I myself rather enjoy my own contrariness when it is real.
Which kind are you?
Really? You mean to say that you do not like to discover what makes people tick?
How is trying to understand the human mind the same as believing in the supernatural?
What about seeing another way of looking at something?
You are French. From France, Canada…
Can you explain what you meant by the above. It did sound interesting.
“Did something just touch me…” That vaguely reminds me of something. Oh, I think it was Christ who said it to the woman in the bible who touched the hem of his garment.
But again, please explain what that means.
Are you speaking metaphorically here? I am sure that in all of his 33 years he had some occasions in which to run possibly from those who at times wanted to stone him.
But what are YOU saying here?
Why not as there was supposedly that human side. But the question is what did he choose to do with that temper.
It always makes me smile when I see this or someone says it. I do hope that you were being facetious?
Thinking practically, how much sense would it have made to tie himself down like that. Did not the Son of God have a mission to fulfill? Why would he tie himself down to a family? No logic in that. Celibacy can be a great thing under certain circumstances. It allows a person to use his sexual energy to belong to the world, to give his heart all inclusively to the world, not to a woman and children, (which would have probably been a hindrance to him) and to live in a sense within his own spiritual seclusion (for lack of a better way to express it).
Hakuna Matata. I actually thought that your layout was clear as opposed to mine sometimes which are not.
You type with only two fingers?!
Regards to you too.
Arcturus Descending
“So you obviously are not a Cathar which can be seen by your own writings.”
True that I am not Cathar, given that I think there is only a church in France that carries on the Cathar traditions.
I am a Canadian and France is far away.
Explain further please on your critique of what I wright.
“You mean to say that you do not like to discover what makes people tick?”
Actually, I do, but we find that out more from looking at ourselves more than in others.
“What does this mean ~~ that you have been observing many things?”
That is a self-explaining statement.
“But what about a beautiful dolphin, an elephant, a wolf?”
Beautiful, yes. Not at our higher level.
Would you hit a human instead of a wolf with your car?
I doubt it.
“Why would you hold it to be as late as 12 years of age?”
Experience and observation as well as having the Princess Alice experiment. Did you note the age of those kids?
You are right though that there is a huge difference in some cases. Just look at the supernatural believing brain dead theists.
"I think that we need more than to just purge the world of evil by doing good, though that does help of course. I think that that can be kind of a meaningless automatic response in many people because it is something that is expected of them either from others or by a God. I also think that it is really, really important to know ourselves, to see our dark side and what it makes us capable of doing as humans and to reflect on that. "
How can I say this?
I like the spirit of your thinking, of course, but disagree with the letter of such a law. If I can put it this way.
All human to human evil is created by us when we compete. That is when a loser will think evil has befallen him.
When we cooperate, that is the good part of evolution.
The point is, to not go extinct, we must do some evil to each other. In this sense, evil is just a small part of the greater good of our evolution. We are all sinners, and to my way of thinking, this is a good thing.
Christians may be thinking the same way when they sing their hymn that calls Adam’s sin a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan.
God aside, given that there is likely no god, nature would also call Adam’s sin a happy fault and necessary to it’s plan of keeping us from extinction. Not that she has a plan. We do. Live.
“How is trying to understand the human mind the same as believing in the supernatural?”
All said of both realms, is speculative and mostly improvable and is this speculative nonsense till we find ways to prove the speculations.
“Can you explain what you meant by the above. It did sound interesting.”
I just mean that I do not insult him by turning the other cheek and I do not mind teaching someone manners with my fist if that he wants to play.
Canadians are nice people, but we are nice because we know what happens when we are not. We are likely to be in a fist fight.
“Are you speaking metaphorically here? I am sure that in all of his 33 years he had some occasions in which to run possibly from those who at times wanted to stone him.
But what are YOU saying here?”
The same basic thing you said. That is partly why I do not care about the opinions of others. Even if I sugar coat everything, like Jesus, I will be hated.
“But the question is what did he choose to do with that temper.”
Back then, not much except in one or two instances. His temple fit comes to mind. In the future, he is shown to be ready to murder all who do not choose him when he comes back.
“It always makes me smile when I see this or someone says it. I do hope that you were being facetious?”
No. Historic. Rabbis were expected to be family men. Quite a few experts are on board with that just from scriptures, and when you work in the Nag Hamadi Gnostic scriptures find, it is basically confirmed. Know that I don’t care one way or the other as it is all myth to me. I am just going by the Jewish tradition.
Regards
DL