Karpel Tunnel, So, you are not necessarily saying that the word “supernatural” has no meaning in the OP since obviously it does to GIA and would it not also to others as the focal point of the discussion?
You are just using that statement as a tool perhaps to get back on track?
I don’t think it has a clear meaning or a consistant one. I suppose I might be trying to get things back on track. Or on track. And since the title of the thread implicitly insults anyone who believes in something supernatural, I think it would likely be useful to know what he means. Obviously he includes the idea of deities, but the term usually counts for more.
Greatest I Am wrote:
You meant me personally? Do you really see those words as coming out of my mouth?
[b]Apotheosis (from Greek ἀποθέωσις from ἀποθεόω/ἀποθεῶ, apotheoo/apotheo “to deify”; in Latin deificatio “making divine”; also called divinization and deification) is the glorification of a subject to divine level and, most commonly, the treatment of a human like a god. The term has meanings in theology, where it refers to a belief, and in art, where it refers to a genre.
In theology, apotheosis refers to the idea that an individual has been raised to godlike stature. In art, the term refers to the treatment of any subject (a figure, group, locale, motif, convention or melody) in a particularly grand or exalted manner.[/b]
The term “I Am” to me simply means that I have affirmed my existence, along with every part and parcel of my being, which by the way is still in the process of evolving, becoming and coming to know myself. I am, in a sense, always in the process of “growing up”. I am sometimes reminded by Life that I have not as yet grown up and perhaps never will be. I am not such a fixed entity.
Why would I prefer to think of myself as a god - or in this case, a goddess. I rather enjoy being a human being.
I believed that your username referred to God but are you saying that you have reached apotheosis?
AD wrote:
KT wrote:
As far as the title of the thread goes, I am not so sure that it does necessarily insult someone who does believe in something supernatural. I re-read the title more than a few times and allowed it to simmer in me but I did not perceive it in that way. There is just a question being asked and simply because the word “intelligent” is used it just does not seem like there is ground enough to think of it as an insult. As Jung said, truth needs the concern of many voices.
I may be wrong here but I kind of think that most in here would know what he meant by the word supernatural since he seemed to only speak of deities for the most part. But I agree that he could have been much more specific and included everything in a list that could be perceived as being supernatural or above the natural . He might have extended that to all categories but his mindset is predominately about God or gods.
You yourself like to think way out of the box and pack away a great many things for your trip.
If it cannot be perceived, then it cannot be talked about, the barrier is language via imagery. If there is no imagery then there can be no language to define or paint said imagery or lack of.
Even what appears to be the imagination is still perceiving. And if supernatural can’t be perceived then it is not comprehensible and not able to be put into words of language. Hence, no discussion of it.
There is nothing that cannot be perceived, even if only analogically, by our minds.
Let me know when you can name such an concept.
Regards
DL
Yes it does. We seek the fittest as a part of our ongoing evolution. Our ideal of a person is a person. Our ideal god is a personified something.
It is an obvious fact that the preachers of supernatural gods are liars. Just talk to them and confirm that for yourself.
Regards
DL
Yes, but as you can see from how apotheosis is defined, many of the labels cannot be given to one’s self. They can only be given to one.
Can I say I am divine? No. Only others can label me as such. Like Jesus, I can only ask, who do they say I am like?
We are all evolving perfection. You admitting that you are the final arbiter of your thinking and your own moral guide is, I think, a healthy claim for an adult to make.
It involves self forgiveness and a deeper self love, which helps us express our love to others.
Regards
DL
Greatest I AM
lol So again, I ask you: Greatest I Am refers to whom? 
.
And would you like that designation? What would you say to someone who said that you were divine?
I think what Christ actually asked/said was: "Who do they say I am? or Who do you say I am?
Why did Jesus ask the question? Was he confused about himself and needed clarity or did he want to know what others thought of him, of who he was?
Quite frankly, I think that that is a very good question which we could ask of one another (not you and me per se lol) but we have to be prepared to give the answer some thought, not necessarily to accept the answer but better still, we need to kind of know and trust the ones we ask to give us a balanced and impartial picture of our self.
Are you calling us humans “perfection” or are you saying that we are evolving toward perfection?
I am not so sure that we can ever become perfect…just better than we were perhaps.
What words did I use to give you that impression? Does being the final arbiter of my thinking mean that I am not capable of changing my mind? Is it a form of stubborn thinking where I refuse to see something different?
When it comes to certain hard questions, like should this person be taken off the ventilator because he will most probably never again have any kind of a quality life, I am not so much then the final arbiter of my thinking…well, perhaps I am at some point but I suppose that BTFAOMT does not necessarily require me to be right just to make the best ethical decision I can.
How do we come to forgive self? What does that entail?
Right back at you.
Jordan Peterson:
“I was once asked how I would define God. My God is the spirit that is trying to elevate Being. My God is the spirit that makes everything come together. My God is the spirit that makes order out of chaos and then recasts order when it becomes too limiting. My God is the spirit of truth incarnate. None of that is supernatural. It is instead what is most real.”
Basing god on reality is the best way to go. It is all we need.
The supernatural is for those who have given up thinking.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am was tongue in cheek and comes from knowing I would be laughed at and that was my way of showing my confidence in my paradigm.
As to divine, I am the closest that you will ever likely see.
“Why did Jesus ask the question?”
Tradition said that the prophets were reborn into the new prophets.
“Are you calling us humans “perfection” or are you saying that we are evolving toward perfection?”
Both, in the sense that we are the best we can be at all points in time. We live in the best of all possible worlds because it is the only possible world given the history that got us here.
Nature always creates for the best possible end and we are living in our best end.
“What words did I use to give you that impression? Does being the final arbiter of my thinking mean that I am not capable of changing my mind? Is it a form of stubborn thinking where I refuse to see something different?”
I cannot know how you think. Final arbiter is just that regardless of how you think.
Regards
DL
The word spirit refers to the principle of conscious life; the vital principle in humans, animating the body or mediating between body and soul. I believe it is also this spirit that is meant in the Bible, whereby there is a difference if someone is said to be filled with that vitality, inasmuch that such people are inspiring and animating. Otherwise, we all have the spirit that grows in us as we grow bodily. It is the spirit that is metaphorically blown into the nostrils of the first human beings.
When Peterson says that his God is the spirit that is trying to elevate Being, the spirit that makes everything come together, the spirit that makes order out of chaos and then recasts order when it becomes too limiting or the spirit of truth incarnate, he is referring to the meaning of life being realised in ways that we can’t grasp or change. The only way we can prevent this spirit is stand in it’s way, which is what the Pharisees were accused of and it is what many scholars, preachers and priests stand in the way of today.
By only wanting a single description of reality, and ruling out another, we stand in its way. It is called by Jesus the single most serious sin.
Greatest I Am,
I am unclear as to what you mean by this. Can you elaborate and/or give me an example.
I could very well take this to mean that you are capable of “seeing” God or at least the possibility of an impersonal God because of the workings of the Universe.
Would I be wrong in this? Again, please explain what you mean above.
Supernatural comes from the Latin word supernaturalis, meaning beyond nature. The adjective form of supernatural describes anything that pertains to or is caused by something that can’t be explained by the laws of nature.
If God is included in your definition of “supernatural” then thinking about God, contemplating whether or not God exists is certainly NOT giving up thinking in my book. Automatically accepting God’s existence because
others believe or because one has such a strong desire to - that to me is giving up thinking.
There have been multitudinous posts in here about God and what pertains to God. Have all of these philosophersin here stopped thinking in your estimation?
Here is a small list of some scientists who see God, not necessarily a personal one but still they “see” a God. I prefer to use the word “see” rather than believe as it holds more water.
Greatest I Am,
I think it possible that some people in here at first wondered what you meant by your username. I did and still do. 
If someone did laugh, would it necessarily have been YOU they were actually laughing at or just the username. I do see some distinction there.
So your paradigm refers to God as that designation or to yourself? I am still not clear as to whom you are referring with the name - God or yourself?
Can you explain this? Some might say that you think that you are absolutely handsome or something like that. Words can have different meanings at different times. Others might say that you are over-compensating for something or other which may be lacking. I suppose that your self-confidence will not allow what I say here to insult you in any way.
So, how are you divine? Or are you referring to your username which is also a reflection of God to some, not you?
That may be true but I do not know this.
I was asking you that question - not tradition or the prophets.
Are we really?Perhaps this is a buddhist’s way of thinking. Is it possible that when we think that way we give ourselves excuses for the things which went down in history that may have been avoided? I am only saying. I cannot know the answer to that.
So you see your cup as being full or at least half full. What about how others have to live on the other side of the world, disease, famine, war? Or even this side of the world?
[b]best
of the most excellent, effective, or desirable type or quality.
“the best pitcher in the league”
synonyms: finest, greatest, top, foremost, leading, preeminent, premier, prime, first, chief, principal, supreme, of the highest quality, superlative, unrivaled, second to none, without equal, nonpareil, unsurpassed, unsurpassable, peerless, matchless, unparalleled, unbeaten, unbeatable, unexcelled, optimum, optimal, ultimate, surpassing, incomparable, ideal, perfect;[/b]
I would not use any of the above adjectives to describe the world. They would show a world which is complete, highly evolved and not in flux.
Define what you mean by nature. You speak as though nature was conscious. What about wars, famines, Tsunamis, earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, et cetera.
What is the best possible end insofar as those things are concerned? If only they were “ends”.
Why would someone come to a forum and engage in dialogue if they actually believed that words were not capable of showing the way in some respects?
I do realize though that there can be a distinction between what one thinks and how one thinks. But words help there too.
Not surprising as it speaks of the hypocrisy and outright lying that all preachers of supernatural gods must do to sell their imaginary constructs.
Regards
DL
If a god is not personal, it is not worthy of us.
All animals like us, even the lesser animals show us who their god or ideal is by emulating one of their own who has showed he or she is the fittest.
Man has to recognize that with gods or ideals, we should look to our own fittest for an example and not some impossible to emulate imaginary god.
Regards
DL
My best answer to this is this link.
youtube.com/watch?v=TjxZ6Mr … re=related
People who ignore evidence to believe in the supernatural are a disgrace to the human race.
Regards
DL
Let me see if I can clear things up for you a bit.
First, on the term I am, which says that I am the only god who is worthy of me.
If you cannot get what I put and apply that term to yourself, then you are likely idol worshiping something. Note how Jesus says that I am just one of many so my ego is not overinflated.
The last on reality and matter might help answer your questions on reality and our evolving perfection.
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Modern Gnostic Christians name our god “I am”, and yes, we do mean ourselves.
You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.
The name “I Am” you might see as meaning something like, — I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.
In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.
That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.
Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes … r_embedded
Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU
The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.
===========
Let me speak to the lie of our hating matter.
I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]”
"If those who attract you say, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, ‘It is under the earth,’ then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."
As you can see from that quote, if we see God’s kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don’t see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.
Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?
Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”
That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.
Regards
DL
That’s the point I made. You can’t name it… Because it hasn’t been perceived… So if supernatural is what cannot be perceived then we cannot speak of it truly because we have no language to portray it as an image because there is no perception of it to describe… Pretty simple.
And the answer to your question of there being nothing that cannot be perceived, death isn’t perceived, in fact it’s the end of an individual perception.