What seems supernatural is only that which has yet to be understood… When the questions become answers based upon perception, is it still viewed as supernatural?
A delving into the depths of the unknown should always be an intelligent person’s goal.
Magic, is just unexplained science. It keeps us going.
Yes, the word just confuses things and leads to discussions where people talk past each other. If it is real, it is natural. Even if it is exceptional.
Artkmas,
What do you think?
But you used the word “perception”, Artimas. I asked that question because you did not say based on knowledge or fact.
Based on how we perceive things, many things can still be seen as supernatural and our answers for them may not be “real”.
All science is based on perception. Perceptaions that were repeatedly observed in controlled situations. Science is incomplete. Therefore there are likely some things that science has not yet confirmed that are real. The concept of supernatural is confused, because it implies that there are real things that are not natural. I think that’s a confusing concept. It is better to say phenomena. So, let’s take ghosts or psychic phenomena. People experience things and decide that not only was it real but that their interpretation is correct. If it seems like a paradigm shift would need to take place, were these things to be considered real within science, say, then at this point, even if they are real, they may not be confirmed. Just as all sorts of things were not believed to be true within science, until changes in the paradigms and/or more evidence came in. Phenomena in this category are natural, but not confirmed, but it may still be rational to believe in them.
There have been many things which people have believed, based on their perceptions, that were nto accepted by mainstream science, but which later turned out to be true.
Karpel Tunnel
True.
I think that my problem with Artimas’ response was that he seemed to be saying that the answers come as a result of only perception (belief) but I may have been wrong there. That is just the beginning of it ~ perception and observation.
More than likely. They will come.
The concept of supernatural is confused, because it implies that there are real things that are not natural. I think that’s a confusing concept. It is better to say phenomena.
Like the rainbow.
Before the scientific secrets of rainbows were discovered, these colorful bands of light were wrapped in mystery and folklore. Every culture had its own theory for the rainbow’s purpose, and many times it had religious significance. Rainbows have been called such things as the tongue of the sun, road of the dead, bride of the rain, hem f the sun-god’s coat, road of the thunder god, bridge between heaven and earth, window to heaven, and bow of God. Biblical accounts establish the rainbow as a covenant, or promise, between God and every living creature that the earth never again will be destroyed by flood. …
tpwd.texas.gov/publications/non … ndex.phtml
Some people, like myself, easily dismiss these things although perhaps I can say that there may be something to psychic phenomena. Am I and others as wrong, scientifically, to dismiss these things as others are to automatically believe them without question or doubt?
For instance?
Yes, isn’t science wonderful?
Or like rogue waves or that elephants could communicate over huge distances. People who were correct about these huge solitary waves and about elephant capabilities were told they were being irrational. Until much, much later when it turned out they correct.
I doubt most people automtically believe. It is likely based on experience. This, of course, does not mean it is right. You’re not wrong scientifically, nor are you right to dismiss them. One can always say ‘I have no reason to believe these things’. But my point was not about you, it was about the use of the word supernatural. If, say, it turns out those things are true, they are not supernatural phenomena, they are natural phenomena. To call something supernatural is to make it sounds like it is something other than nature. It’s either real or not.
I guess I have to start by asking if you really don’t know this is the case. But sure in Newton space and time are absolute, but Einstein showed they are relative. Quantum Mechanics has a wealth of things that scientists dismissed and dismissed until it was the case. The ability of animals to be able to use language like they do or to learn to solve certain problems was scoffed at then not. Scientists often deal with the resistence within the scientific community.
That seems like a disconnected conclusion, though I agree, just not as a conclusion to that. Often things are dismissed, when it would be more correct to simply say I do not see enough evidence for me to believe that. The scientific community has been as guilty of this as pretty much any group.
IOW they have binary thinking: science says it is true, it’s true. If science does not say this, it’s false. This is obviously contradicted by the history of science itself.
Let’s bring it down to earth with what has been am ongoing process historically. Reductionism and through ever expanding determinism through increasing awareness of phenomenological perception. The effect a of this is to transform or shift lreception to perception .
The point made by Peacegirl here can be effectively taken, that this shift of modality results in an approach to the in-finite, that is the appreciation of approach to the relative.
In fact there is an eager eigen , urgency, where by humanity is in a rush to get to the absolute.
There is an inherent guilt posited in the existential reproduction of what has been reified in and through ‘being’.
What is this all about ? Is the connected perception to life as tantamount to the original sin.
We heard ofnthe symbolic asymmetry between good and evil, that the temtor, the snake was really god, in it’s most elementary form, and the snake consciousness is inherent as a formal constituent of the very primal manifestation of the human embryo
The natural ( the pre evolutionary animal part of humanity) has reified the superhuman, by the adaption of the ‘word’ which , in spite of the showing that some animals have their own form of communication , do suggest an existential jump that dis in fact appeared as extraordinary, and supernaturally sourced.
I make the distinction here of ascribing such a jump as phenomenological not logical.
This, in fact, literally introduced the ‘Naturalistic Fallacy’ logically, literally.
By such introduction to logical fallacy, the separation between the natural and super natural is assigned and assured.
The effect of this breakdown in the bicameral mind, is. that the natural and the ‘simulated’ intelligence attains a connection, which can only be understood in religious and not mechanical or scientific methodology.
That is why conventional religion is losing adherents.
However such results in the minority belief in faith rather then knowledge.
Then, eventually , supernatural and intelligent become fallacious and conflicting.
Guilt becomes the mode of understanding the word of God, who instituted original sin, as somehow at par with the pleasures of existential creation.
This is what Nietzche had in mind, and it does try to break the habit or viewing redemption in binary systems thought.
Either/or - (Kierkegaard) tries to het pit from the fallacy (Nietzche) but Nietzche wins the short term gain, he sees no reason in other then immediate gratification. Time is receding the tide of opinion.
And since consciousness is simulation of existence, and the reductive de-differentiation has an anti-reflexive destination for theoretical comparative telati with to more absolute and equivocally short circuited certainty, this ‘fall’ need not be feared, it is a fall toward and not away from absolute certainty into the immortal present.
A life giving cancer, but ignore the stats all you like to maintain your delusional thinking.
You might want to stop lying to yourself and others.
youtube.com/watch?v=VdtwTeBPYQA
Regards
DL
Not the usual dictionary definitions but that does not matter when creating your own ideology and language.
I agree that delving into the depths of the unknown is good and intelligent, but to believe that speculative nonsense as real, is foolish to the max.
Regards
DL
That is likely why the Jews get Original Virtue out of Eden while the more stupid Christians end with Original Sin.
Regards
DL
How come you
copied my reponse?
Go back to Aug 9th, 12:29
The below is what I posted.
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Like the rainbow.
The below was your response.
Or like rogue waves or that elephants could communicate over huge distances. People who were correct about these huge solitary waves and about elephant capabilities were told they were being irrational. Until much, much later when it turned out they correct.
-and-
then my response
Some people, like myself, easily dismiss these things although perhaps I can say that there may be something to psychic phenomena. Am I and others as wrong, scientifically, to dismiss these things as others are to automatically believe them without question or doubt?
No. 1 I would never post someone else’s response and call it my own.
No. 2 It must have been some fluke which you created by accident as far as I know.
That was your response to something else, on the 7th. The post on the 9th, the one YOU must be the creator of because it is your avatar, is a copy of my previous post. You copied my post.
I wasn’t accusing you of plagiarism, just of simply copying my post.
[/quote]
I can’t make posts with your avatar…
this post of YOURS, see the avatar…
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=195028&p=2735888#p2735607
is an exact copy of my post…
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=195028&p=2735888#p2735411
a post which has my avatar.
I think its very funny you are blaming me for what must have been your act. Presumably accidental, since it seems to have no point at all, but one that has to be yours.
Karpel Tunnel,
I think that the best thing to do here is to forget about this. Quite frankly, I have no idea about what is going on and I will not hazard a guess…although I just might intuit that you are deliberately trying to convolute things here for whatever reason I have no idea. I think that we have derailed this enough! If I am wrong about my theory, I do certainly apologize to you. Perhaps it is simply a question of your not quite understanding the ins and outs of posting the quotes, etc. It can be confusing.
At this point, I am lost in muddy waters.
But there is nowhere in my few posts, under MY avatar, that I copied your response and made it my own. My response was like the rainbow in quotes and if you will look beneath you will see that your response is outside of my quote.
[b]Arc: No. 2 It must have been some fluke which you created by accident as far as I know.
KT
[/quote]
I can’t make posts with your avatar…[/b]
Perhaps it is not even necessary. I cannot know for sure but is it possible that someone can manipulate another’s response within their own Avatar’s answer. I am just asking. I am not saying that this is the case with you. It is not a good thing to be so easily deceived…
Arc:Some people, like myself, easily dismiss these things although perhaps I can say that there may be something to psychic phenomena. Am I and others as wrong, scientifically, to dismiss these things as others are to automatically believe them without question or doubt?
KT:That was your response to something else, on the 7th. The post on the 9th, the one YOU must be the creator of because it is your avatar, is a copy of my previous post. You copied my post.
On Aug 7th you did response to a post of mine. That is where I spoke about rainbows and then you responded to that and on Aug 9 I responded to your post. All I can gather here is that you added to your post to me and I have not yet had the opportunity to respond to it.
Incidentally, we do here on ILP have to copy each other’s posts in order to respond to them (outside of the quotes) but at no time did I ever take your words and call them mine.
So, if if there is nothing else, can we please move on. … I will respond to your post when I can.
I wonder what it is that the universe is trying to teach us here ~~ individually.
Namaste
KT wrote:
lol We must be in Mexico!
Karpel Tunnel,
Hopefully, by this time, we have left Mexico. 
They are awesome to look at…even just googled. Waves are like something out of this world to me larger than life. How they do affect me.
That is something, isn’t it? I recently read a book by Jodi Picoult called Leaving Time and I gained a lot of new insight and love for elephants. Something else to cry over. They are awesome. Sometimes I have no idea why I cannot still believe in God considering what evolution has brought us to. What a world!!! What a Universe!!! Still to be discovered. lol
That holds true of many things which have not been seen or experienced by us. I do not think that that is necessarily a negative thing as long as we can keep an open mind.
I have my doubts about that but i suppose it is more based on the individual and what it is they feel a need to believe in.
Yes, I can agree with that. Based on experience too.
What is not right? To automatically believe?
True. You have to take the way of the scientist but most of us are not.
Well, unless I am misunderstanding your thought here - it is still “real” ~~ it is just NOT supernatural.
But I think that we can understand that to certain minds not having the knowledge to understand and so deeply embedded in the supernatural, that is the way in which they will see it. If I did not know better, I could see this awesome though scary Tsunami as supernatural – it seems so above the ordinary and seems almost magical. It is in a way magical (not the superstitious) magical.
True, like for some who believe in God. Based on what is seen, it can be rational to “see” a creator God albeit I wonder just how much what we believe is true.
Yes, I know this to be the case. I do not have a scientific mind nor an especially bright one but I kind of understand without really understanding much. 
Why do you think that was? Partly because we were afraid that that knowledge might make animals a bit more equal to humans? I was once in a forum for a little while where someone said that animals have no emotions. Probably viewed that way for the same reason - no way could they be like us ~~ having emotions. How could someone be that unintuitive and that unempathetic.
Well, I just could not help myself and you are right. My response was kind of disconnected. hahaha I think that science is wonderful. I only wish that I had the mind to truly grasp it.
Yes that is a far better way to end the discussion.
Scientists are human too and can be bound up, religiously, by their thinking and beliefs, especially if they have given so much time and energy to something. Yes? No?
.
I think we should settle it as perception is the thing that is super-natural or gives appearance of such to other things in observation or thought.