I agree that our religions have dumbed us down to what nature demands of us to the point of us imperilling ourselves during this global extinction event.
We have become poor stewards or our eco system and it is letting us know that in spades.
That is what thinking that using an immoral concept like scapegoating a Jesus type has helped do to us.
Regards
DL
Mea culpa—I meant thousands of years not millions. Just defensive because you agree with me about religion and Nature then attack my beliefs,
Getting and spending we lay waste our powers
Little we see in Nature that is ours.==Wordsworth.
Throughout history dominion has come to mean exploitation–because we can.
This is the way the world will end,
Not with a bang, but a whimper.–T. S. Eliot
Was the Fall of Man in the Garden of Eden a fall into mind and responsibility or a fall into sin and culpability? The latter taints the creation of the human psyche with a fatal flaw. The former agrees with creative evolution.
I agree with the Jewish interpretation that Christianity reversed, — sort of, as they have conflicted their beliefs.
Jews saw Original virtue while Christians, on the one hand call Eden where man produced Original sin, while on the other hand they preach and sing that Adam’s sin was a happy fault and necessary to god’s plan.
Jews smart, Christians conflicted and stupid.
In older times Christians could do apologetics around the necessary sin, but todays apologist have been dumbed down to where they cannot and I will not show them how.
Regards
DL
Apologies.
I am prolific and feisty and sometime err.
I spend way to much time fighting the religious and it has likely effected my attitude with non-believers as well.
I will have to try harder to remember to keep my bully side in check with those on my side.
My sieve of a memory does not help.
Regards
DL
The notion of creative evolution can see a coming together of religious and scientific viewpoints. Einstein commented that he did not doubt God did it, but wanted to understand how it was done. Science and religion do not have to be enemies.
Trends in naturalist/science thinking have come and gone in history within religions but both religions and science now both have a god of the gaps and no, supernatural religions and natural science do not mix.
We either live in a natural world or a supernatural controlled world and the two thinking systems will always be in opposition.
Religions are dying and given the immoral natures of most of them, especially the mainstream ones like Christianity and Islam, so the sooner we are rid of them the better.
youtube.com/watch?v=BRHefbIgKxk&t=91s
Regards
DL
Ierrellus,
What do YOU mean by Divine and why do you call yourself Divine?
Can I please have your response according to what you think and feel and not the thoughts and feelings of whoever wrote A Course in Miracles (is it?) et cetera.
You were an English teacher I remember so you can handle this well.
By being divine I simply mean I am an integral part of all that exists. My belonging here is beyond questioning. I see nature as divine in the same sense; however, I see most humans as in conflict with nature which is a conflict to the death. Most think nature needs to be revised to suit our wants.
“Things are in the saddle and ride mankind”,–Emerson.
Greatest I am
Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?
So, are you saying here that God did this?
There is a difference between a lie and an honest opinion. He is as entitled to his beliefs as you are to yours, Greatest I Am. They are all beliefs as none can be proven.
Has anyone ever told you that you ought to bring your attitude down a few notches? What you said to Ierrellus was pretty insulting.
God cannot possibly plan things for free agents.
Sure, by those whose ancestors used inquisitions and jihads and whose foul religions continue to discriminate and denigrate half the worlds population of gays and women with their vile homophobic and misogynous teachings.
I will not relent in fighting such moral monsters. If you are not up to doing the right thing, then don’t.
We were talking of Jesus and I took Ierrellus to be a Christian.
Christians are abdicating their own responsibility for their own sins and that is immoral. They also think that Jesus would do the immoral thing by asking them to do so as a condition to their being saved.
Such immoral thinking and minds deserve insulting and wher I come from, we call spades spades.
"Jesus was chosen to do what to your way of thinking?
Christian thinking says that he was chosen to be their scapegoat messiah.
“So, are you saying here that God did this?”
So his book of myths say, after all, this was even before the earth was created or the potential for sin.
A cure is not invented before the disease is. That is how stupid the Christian theology is.
Regards
DL
I agree but many places in the bible show where god ignores our free will and interferes in mankind’s affairs.
In the case of the O.P., when god chose Jesus to die, like dominos, to make Jesus die, god has to make sure there is a killer there to do the dirty deed.
Regards
DL
I mentioned two views of “the Fall of Man” that bear repeating:
We are on the same page other than your reference to Jesus.
To me, Jesus just shows the way, like all good mystics, to Gnosis, and leads us to become our own Jesus and savior in terms of growing into full adulthood.
Modern Gnostic Christians name our god “I am”, and yes, we do mean ourselves.
You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.
The name “I Am” you might see as meaning something like, — I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.
In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.
That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.
Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.
Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes … r_embedded
Joseph Campbell shows the same esoteric ecumenist idea in this link.
youtube.com/watch?v=aGx4IlppSgU
The bible just plainly says to put away the things of children. The supernatural and literal reading of myths.
Regards
DL
Greatest I AM,
I can agree with you that there is a lot in the bible that is both hateful and ugly but we have come a long way since then even though some are still highly mysogynistic, racist and homophobic, either because it gives them an excuse to be that way, because of their faulty thinking or because they are not capable of questioning these beliefs.
So because you assumed that Ierrellus was a Christian, you automatically insulted him. Do you find anything “Inquisitor”-like about that?
Do you look to the Christian, the kind of human being he or she is and the way in which they live their life or are they automatically “anathema” to you? I am asking because I really want to know this. Look what you said to Ierrellus.
Why do you keep “lumping” everyone together? I am not so sure that a Christian, one who actually practices his religion and is self-aware, automatically does this. If a person does not take responsibility as you say for their sins, it has a lot less to do with their religion and a lot more to do with them simply as an “individual”. They are the type of individual who does not want to see his own guilt and responsibility.
I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?
So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting. Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.
"
I would have let out the word “scapegoat” but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.
Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God, not one who was pressured, and not a slave.
I realize that a lot that is in the bible is just myth and belief and just in case you may not have noticed, there are also some beautiful "pearls there. There was a time as a Catholic, and one who was raised in a Catholic Orphanage, that I also believed a lot but there was also a lot that I disregarded because it did not make sense and because some of what was in the bible was hateful and ugly. I have since shed that “skin” but you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples’ beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.
You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.
Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?
Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?
A cure is not invented before the disease is. That is how stupid the Christian theology is.
Greatest I AM,
I can agree with you that there is a lot in the bible that is both hateful and ugly but we have come a long way since then even though some are still highly mysogynistic, racist and homophobic, either because it gives them an excuse to be that way, because of their faulty thinking or because they are not capable of questioning these beliefs.
So because you assumed that Ierrellus was a Christian, you automatically insulted him. Do you find anything “Inquisitor”-like about that?
Do you look to the Christian, the kind of human being he or she is and the way in which they live their life or are they automatically “anathema” to you? I am asking because I really want to know this. Look what you said to Ierrellus.
Why do you keep “lumping” everyone together? I am not so sure that a Christian, one who actually practices his religion and is self-aware, automatically does this. If a person does not take responsibility as you say for their sins, it has a lot less to do with their religion and a lot more to do with them simply as an “individual”. They are the type of individual who does not want to see his own guilt and responsibility.
I am not understanding what you mean here. Can you please clarify it. According to Catholicism Jesus as the Son of God, cannot sin though he has a human nature along with His Divine nature. So, what is Christ asking them to do by their perception?
So you are the poster child who is going to clean up the world by your attacking and insulting. Have you ever heard that you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar? I am not saying NOT to respond to these kind of people who spread this kind of ugliness but you need to figure out what is actually ugly and what is just beliefs which help get one through the night and do not harm others.
"
I would have let out the word “scapegoat” but I have seen it in many posts in this forum. According to Christianity though, God the Father did not force this mission on Him. Together they both agreed to it. It kind of changes things when viewed in that way; that is, if you can take the time to think that out.
Supposedly it was the act of a loving compassionate God, not one who was pressured, and not a slave.
I realize that a lot that is in the bible is just myth and belief and just in case you may not have noticed, there are also some beautiful "pearls there. There was a time as a Catholic, and one who was raised in a Catholic Orphanage, that I also believed a lot but there was also a lot that I disregarded because it did not make sense and because some of what was in the bible was hateful and ugly. I have since shed that “skin” but you yourself do denigrate a lot of peoples’ beliefs simply because you do not understand why some of those, for lack of a better word, I will say better beliefs, mean to people.
You mean God the Father and Son ordaining that Christ would come to earth and die for our sins and open the gates of heaven? If you give this some thought, is this necessarily such a terrible thing to believe if it does in fact allow people to take responsibility for their actions and to love this God and to do His will? After all, Christ stripped himself of his full Divinity and became Man.
Would you condemn a Christian or a Catholic for their beliefs because you do not go along with some of them?
Why are you more entitled to your own beliefs than others are to theirs?
Well, one way I can answer that is to say that according to those who believe in God, one of the attributes of God is that this God is Omnicient…All Knowing. Ergo God would have known ahead of time that humans would eventually evolve into imperfect, faulty beings.
Something that is not understood, even if it is not quite “real” is either feared or thought to be stupid.
Re-read what is in quotes there above. How does that really sound to you?
“Arcturus Descending”
Why do you keep “lumping” everyone together?
That was not ever said by me.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am"
You missed the point here. The “lumping” together referred to your judgment of all Christians, no matter what kind of an individual he/she is. They are all evil/vile to you. Again, you believed Ierrellus to be Christian and so your trigger caused you to insult him.
Would you persecute, torture and murder Christians as the Nazis did the Jewish community? It was a rhetorical question. I am not saying that you would but we have a deep, dark shadow side to us where we may be capable of things which we might never have supposed. We needs to be watchful of that side.
I do not understand your use of the word “ride” here. What does that even mean?
So the answer to my question above is a YES?
Is seeing the truth, the real truth, such an easy thing to you?
Many a doctrine is like a window pane. We see truth through it but it divides us from truth. Kahlil Gibran
We agree on the above but I was speaking of your judgment of all of the Christians, et cetera who do no harm and try to live a good life.
Okay, maybe I am misunderstanding you because of that one remark you made to Ierrellus. Do you, in actuality, believe that all christians are wrong, vile and are morons, as you said to me?
Do you?
I do not think that those two actions are contradictory to each other. Give it some thought. At any rate, that might depend on the situation/circumstance. Some may also volunteer and because of that, ARE chosen. Their will is not taken from them.
At any rate, though Christ was the Son of God, he was equal in all ways. He took it upon himself to become human.
lol What do you mean by “forgiving outright”? A man continues to rape and murder without any feeling of guilt and/or remorse and God is to forgive him outright? What about the victims?
Compassion at times, human compassion, has to be balanced with intelligence and reason. We have to take responsibility and show that we have learned something. Are you a father? If so, do you simply forgive your child without teaching him that there are consequences to his actions and sometimes taking something away to teach him?
Anyway, let us not forget that according to Christian myth, the Gates of Heaven were closed so there HAD to be a redeemer to come and open them. That is supposed to show God as a loving, forgiving Father to His people. Tje OT God supposedly was not such a loving, compassionate God.
A lot of people, including Christians, sometimes have a problem with that part - God sending His son to die for us. People are still trying to understand The Holy Trinity. We cannot fathom that as human beings, God would sacrifice His Son or allow the Son to sacrifice Himself. So much has to be taken on faith and not questioned in order to work. Human beings make God into their own image without realizing that there is so much mystery there which cannot be understood. Maybe delving deeper into the meaning can be helpful. You know, thinking out of the box.
Yes, those who are, are. But I was speaking of your perception of Christians. Did you not say above: “That sounds as retarded as a Christian”.
Sounds more like revenge to me, not justice. I was never one to follow “an eye for an eye” although at times I have to admit it might feel quite yummy to. Apparently you do.
What do You see yourself as doing?
You have Jesus breaking the laws he said he came to fulfill which say that our sins can only be forgiven us, not some innocent victim.
[/quote]
Which laws do I have Jesus breaking? 
I do not understand what you mean by what is in color.
Unjustly closed? If your child does something which is really wrong and you take away a toy or a privilege of his, who do you think has really taken away that privilege, yourself or your child? Actions have repercussions to them. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Somewhere in the bible it says that the “sins of the fathers (parents) shall be visited upon the children”. Would you give that privilege back to your child so easily?
When you say you, are you referring to me the Christian? I am not one anymore. If I was, I would certainly not deny it.
I suppose that you are speaKing only of those beliefs which would attack gay people, women, those with diseases, et cetera…those beliefs which state that it is God who is punishing because someone has Aids, et cetera? Attack THOSE beliefs and teach.
Ah, but these people are those who live in faith and do believe. They practice their beliefs. They harm no one. I think that you see things too much in simple black and white. There are colors and shades of colors.
Perhaps not in those exact words. But I intuit that you are certainly believing and living those words in spirit. I see it.
Which laws do I have Jesus breaking?
I do not understand what you mean by what is in color.
Unjustly closed? If your child does something which is really wrong and you take away a toy or a privilege of his, who do you think has really taken away that privilege, yourself or your child? Actions have repercussions to them. Adam and Eve disobeyed God. Somewhere in the bible it says that the “sins of the fathers (parents) shall be visited upon the children”. Would you give that privilege back to your child so easily?
When you say you, are you referring to me the Christian? I am not one anymore. If I was, I would certainly not deny it.
I suppose that you are speaKing only of those beliefs which would attack gay people, women, those with diseases, et cetera…those beliefs which state that it is God who is punishing because someone has Aids, et cetera? Attack THOSE beliefs and teach.
Ah, but these people are those who live in faith and do believe. They practice their beliefs. They harm no one. I think that you see things too much in simple black and white. There are colors and shades of colors.
Perhaps not in those exact words. But I intuit that you are certainly believing and living those words in spirit. I see it.
[/quote]
Nice apology that shows that your assumption made an ass of you and you are doubling down on it.
Your post has way too much foolishness for me to deal with all of it so I will cherry pick.
Tell us, when you see Christians, let’s say Catholics, all putting their cash in a collection basket while knowing that some of it will go to pedophile victims and air fare to move those pedophiles to new hunting grounds, how do you pick out the good Christians?
When some prick of a preacher is sermonizing about how women and gays are inferior with his homophobic and misogynous sermon, how do you pick out the good ones who disagree?
“We agree on the above but I was speaking of your judgment of all of the Christians, et cetera who do no harm and try to live a good life.”
Supporting a homophobic and misogynous church is doing harm to those the church targets and if they are good people, as you say, they will leave that vile church.
“though Christ was the Son of God, he was equal in all ways. He took it upon himself to become human.”
Supernaturally based idiocy that Constantine forced down Christianity’s throat. Read your history.
“What about the victims?”
Glad you asked. The victim has the right to forgive while god does not.
If your wife gets raped, would she feel justice was done if god forgave her rapist?
" Are you a father? If so, do you simply forgive your child without teaching him that there are consequences to his actions and sometimes taking something away to teach him?"
Sure I believe in punishing a guilty child.
Now compare that wisdom to what that prick Yahweh did.
Instead of punishing the guilty, he punished his innocent child.
Why do you praise what you would not do yourself?
“That is supposed to show God as a loving, forgiving Father to His people.”
All belied by his killing instead of curing all over the bible. You are rather selective in your reading habits.
“which say that our sins can only be forgiven us,”
I wrote this for Christian. If you happen to be one take it as is. If you are not, stop supporting immoral people.
You have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil you make Jesus to keep your feel good get out of hell free card.
It is a lie, first and foremost because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, — so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, — is immoral. To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.
You also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
There is no way that you would teach your children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are doing just that.
Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fibre as Yahweh. Satan applauds you though as you are doing her work.
Regards
DL