Truth and lies

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Truth and lies

Postby Artimas » Thu May 30, 2019 8:20 pm

If I let another believe a lie that I know the truth for, am I just as guilty as the liar for letting it be believed?

Or do I have to or should I be an asshole and state the truth?

Are we all either liars or assholes in any given situation regarding truth?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Dan~ » Thu May 30, 2019 10:44 pm

People that hate facts do not deserve them.

There are pleanty of possible pass-times on a human earth life.
You don't only need to save people from their own shit.
There is a lot you can do.
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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Artimas » Fri May 31, 2019 3:09 pm

Dan~ wrote:People that hate facts do not deserve them.

There are pleanty of possible pass-times on a human earth life.
You don't only need to save people from their own shit.
There is a lot you can do.


Well I’m on a transcendental chase by the shadow, as we all are.. I feel my only real everlasting relief is through wisdom and helping others reach a higher awareness. Some refer to it as “Christ consciousness”, “enlightenment”, etc.. I just view it as a higher state of mind, as if in terms of frequency, a purple mind. Quick thinking, intuitive, ineffable.

What if it’s a person who is neutral on truth and someone has told them a lie? Should I let them believe the lie and am I guilty for letting them believe such when I knew otherwise? Or should I reveal the truth even if they haven’t consented to knowing it from me? Wouldn’t I be an asshole if they took it the wrong way? Or is it their fault for taking it the wrong way?

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Dan~ » Fri May 31, 2019 7:30 pm

Artimas wrote:Well I’m on a transcendental chase by the shadow, as we all are.. I feel my only real everlasting relief is through wisdom and helping others reach a higher awareness. Some refer to it as “Christ consciousness”, “enlightenment”, etc.. I just view it as a higher state of mind, as if in terms of frequency, a purple mind. Quick thinking, intuitive, ineffable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfqLdOgoB98

Here is something i saw recently.
This person wants to crack enlightenment open also.

Meanwhile im not absolute.
Many kinds of enlightenment exist and can be gained gradually via proper means.
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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:09 pm

Artimas wrote:If I let another believe a lie that I know the truth for, am I just as guilty as the liar for letting it be believed?

Or do I have to or should I be an asshole and state the truth?

Are we all either liars or assholes in any given situation regarding truth?


That would depend on the repercussions. For instance, is someone being harmed because of this lie? Can you be more specific? An example?

Why do you think that stating the truth would make you an asshole? Withholding the truth could just as easily make you one.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Artimas » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:45 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Artimas wrote:If I let another believe a lie that I know the truth for, am I just as guilty as the liar for letting it be believed?

Or do I have to or should I be an asshole and state the truth?

Are we all either liars or assholes in any given situation regarding truth?


That would depend on the repercussions. For instance, is someone being harmed because of this lie? Can you be more specific? An example?

Why do you think that stating the truth would make you an asshole? Withholding the truth could just as easily make you one.


It’s an in general kind of deal, a lot of people get upset and hate me for trying to reveal the truth to them, usually psychological if I see a self projection or some sort of insecurity or bias visible.

A lot of people call someone who researches a narcissist or an asshole when they use their research or correlations to try and show them the conclusions or when I tried to show people the psychology behind psychedelics and the imagery of “entities” or “god”.

Should I let them delude themselves or believe clear lies of human psyche and self along with reality due to their wanting to be comfortable? A lie is always going to cause more pain for an individual in the end because it’s a waste of time to not be oneself fully or discover something new about oneself that can potentially grant wisdom or some power/more freedom over self. It is the sacrifice of understanding for comfort.

If they don’t consent and I tell them the truth, does that make me an asshole?

If they believe a lie and I let them, does that make me guilty of being a liar, If my pursuit of finding and manifesting wisdom in them even if I value them all as humans, ends?

It’s more harmful to be ignorant than know or understand but the ignorant don’t understand that of course. A single or few Intelligent individuals can be confined collectively by mass ignorance, making it hard to evolve the species collectively or manifest new. But it is also ones right to remain ignorant if they wish, isn’t it?

Often I find myself trapped between these two and not speaking because of possible repercussions.. isolation and having to be very selective in who I speak with.. not many friends.. though I could be well liked if all I want to do is help and that is seen, instead of hated for conflicting truth over a illusion or lie.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Artimas » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:23 am

Someone told me, they would rather be an asshole than a liar.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Arcturus Descending » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:01 pm

Artimas,

It’s an in general kind of deal, a lot of people get upset and hate me for trying to reveal the truth to them, usually psychological if I see a self projection or some sort of insecurity or bias visible.


Have you ever examined what your motivation is in trying to reveal the truth to them?


A lot of people call someone who researches a narcissist or an asshole when they use their research or correlations to try and show them the conclusions or when I tried to show people the psychology behind psychedelics and the imagery of “entities” or “god”.


I remember someone in here either a while ago or a long while ago (maybe it was you, maybe not) who stated that they were trying to become a more kind agnostic. That made an impression on me and I found myself examining just how kind an agnostic I was and how I delivered my personal views and impressions about the existence of God (since becoming an agnotic/skeptic to others who did believe. I found myself to be perhaps more than a tad supercilious.


Should I let them delude themselves or believe clear lies of human psyche and self along with reality due to their wanting to be comfortable?


That is an important question. There are some people who are fragile and do need to be handled with care.
Perhaps this is not a good scenario but if you broke a leg, would you like someone to rip the crutches right out from under you?
Do you look to the individual first before you decide to take away those crutches, Artimas?


A lie is always going to cause more pain for an individual in the end because it’s a waste of time to not be oneself fully or discover something new about oneself that can potentially grant wisdom or some power/more freedom over self. It is the sacrifice of understanding for comfort.


I agree with this but would you agree with me that things take time, that they are a process?
Anyway, your statement leaves a lot out of it, what the circumstances are, what the lie is, et cetera.


If they don’t consent and I tell them the truth, does that make me an asshole?


lol I am not so sure of this but if I was there and they didn't consent (not sure what you mean by that - I do understand the word though) ~~ well, would you like my answer? :evilfun: Actually I cannot even be sure what the answer would be since a lot depends on your "presentation" and on your "delivery".
It is not all black or white, Artimas, to me.


If they believe a lie and I let them, does that make me guilty of being a liar, If my pursuit of finding and manifesting wisdom in them even if I value them all as humans, ends?


Again, I think this depends on what the situation is. If this person's reputation is being harmed or someone is pulling the wool over someone, then I would say something but I think that wisdom dictates that it not be experienced as a slap in the face but as coming from someone who really does care, since it probably will hurt anyway but maybe not as much. Who knows? Sometimes a gentle breeze is called for an sometimes a strong wind is. lol

It’s more harmful to be ignorant than know or understand but the ignorant don’t understand that of course.


I can agree with that but at the same time what is the delivery, what is the presentation like?

But it is also ones right to remain ignorant if they wish, isn’t it?


I would say so but how do YOU go about asking them if that is what they want?

Often I find myself trapped between these two and not speaking because of possible repercussions.. isolation and having to be very selective in who I speak with.. not many friends.. though I could be well liked if all I want to do is help and that is seen, instead of hated for conflicting truth over a illusion or lie.


I think that these kind of decisions can be really difficult since as you know, hell CAN be paved with good intentions. The best of intentions can cause more harm than good. Another good phrase ~ "Fools rush in where angels fear to tred". Do you take the time to reflect and question the wisdom of what you are about to do or say to someone?
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Artimas » Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:10 pm

Arc,

Have you ever examined what your motivation is in trying to reveal the truth to them?


To help the collective see and align. Hasten evolution, avoidance of self destruction, happiness without harm. Nature is tired.


I remember someone in here either a while ago or a long while ago (maybe it was you, maybe not) who stated that they were trying to become a more kind agnostic. That made an impression on me and I found myself examining just how kind an agnostic I was and how I delivered my personal views and impressions about the existence of God (since becoming an agnotic/skeptic to others who did believe. I found myself to be perhaps more than a tad supercilious


I don’t know what I am anymore in terms of labels, the more you try to label an individual absolutely, the more complex or confusing it becomes, language contradicts itself.. I am just me. I try to remain balanced and sometimes I slip toward self destruction and have to climb back toward self sufficiency. I think it is possible to know and understand all that needs to be understood with the idea of god but there will always be more evolving out of those understandings and so it’s a transcendental chase by the shadow as Meno and I discussed before.. the god itself is evolving and begging us to understand it, to follow. To avoid our own self destruction.



That is an important question. There are some people who are fragile and do need to be handled with care.
Perhaps this is not a good scenario but if you broke a leg, would you like someone to rip the crutches right out from under you?
Do you look to the individual first before you decide to take away those crutches, Artimas?


If I broke my leg I’d take care of it as needed but I wouldn’t be afraid to walk or test it to see if ready. Depends on if I am using the crutches when I don’t need them and they see that I can walk again without them, if they see the crutches are only a burden to my walking normally. I would hope if they saw such they would tell me and take them to show me I can walk. I do most often but what am I supposed to do, never speak? I’m tired of remaining quiet while everyone destroys the planet and my home without any realization.


I agree with this but would you agree with me that things take time, that they are a process?
Anyway, your statement leaves a lot out of it, what the circumstances are, what the lie is, et cetera.


I agree and Context always matters, I was just meaning it as an in general statement, which side is more often than not, assholes or liars.. because I see so many lies and no appreciation for truth other than us here.. and sometimes it is too much weight. I am meaning in terms of bettering an individual though, so many don’t see that it is criticism and stoicism that promote growth, true education. Not judgement, just criticism without bias.

lol I am not so sure of this but if I was there and they didn't consent (not sure what you mean by that - I do understand the word though) ~~ well, would you like my answer? Actually I cannot even be sure what the answer would be since a lot depends on your "presentation" and on your "delivery".
It is not all black or white, Artimas, to me.


It’s not so black and white no but ultimately those two sides are apparent to near every situation.. through criticism/education or deceit. Some people will thank you for telling them I know, but more often than not it’s the other two sides chosen and I would like to know if I should choose to be an asshole or a liar.. because I am tired of being attacked and hated. When I am dead, will they see that I actually loved them?

Again, I think this depends on what the situation is. If this person's reputation is being harmed or someone is pulling the wool over someone, then I would say something but I think that wisdom dictates that it not be experienced as a slap in the face but as coming from someone who really does care, since it probably will hurt anyway but maybe not as much. Who knows? Sometimes a gentle breeze is called for an sometimes a strong wind is. lol


What if they are being harmed in the very long run and they can’t see such? Everyone is on a different varying level.. and so it is difficult to see who is ready and who is not. But why can’t everyone be ready for truth? When ultimately it is not bad? I thought most people wanted good. The truth is a universal good, no bias. But most people don’t see that they care, because it’s from an authoritative standpoint, education comes from that type of view to the ignorant.. I know because even James S Saint, phyllo and others tried showing me when I was a militant atheist and had a bias against the idea of Jesus and religion, that I was wrong and I was foolish then to not see and I am still foolish even now. I do see now that it was their caring that promoted their responding before. Focusing on Philosophy is, for people who care.

I can agree with that but at the same time what is the delivery, what is the presentation like?

I would say so but how do YOU go about asking them if that is what they want?


Usually blunt, direct, sometimes I try with humor. But still often hated.

Sometimes it eats at me inside to speak but I keep quiet..


I think that these kind of decisions can be really difficult since as you know, hell CAN be paved with good intentions. The best of intentions can cause more harm than good. Another good phrase ~ "Fools rush in where angels fear to tred". Do you take the time to reflect and question the wisdom of what you are about to do or say to someone?


I try, all I do is reflect. I am alone most of the time, thinking to myself.. usually I answer questions or try to pose the question to be answered. Often quiet but am tired of being quiet.

Even nothing, is something.
If one is to live balanced with expectations, then one must learn to appreciate the negative as well, to respect darkness in its own home.

All smoke fades, as do all delicate mirrors shatter.

"My ancestors are smiling on me, Imperials. Can you say the same?"

"Science Fiction today ~ Science Fact tomorrow"

Change is inevitable, it can only be delayed or sped up. Choose wisely.

Truth is pain, and pain is gain.


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Re: Truth and lies

Postby surreptitious75 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:36 am

Everyone has a responsibility to themselves to check the validity of all truth statements
If someone is too lazy or ignorant to do so then that is a failing in them not anyone else
And unless that person is your child you are under no moral obligation to educate them

Having said all that however letting someone believe a demonstrable lie would not be a very good thing to do
Still I would prefer to let people think for themselves on balance unless they ask otherwise and they never do

I draw the line at facts however as opinions cannot be demonstrated to be factually true
Although since I am a virtual loner then this is not really something that ever affects me

As for myself I now use up less energy with regard to accepting possible truth statements as it keeps me relatively dogma free
Even things that I know to be true are not held with any more conviction than is absolutely necessary since there is no need to
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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Re: Truth and lies

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:15 pm

Telling the truth is one thing, convincing someone of a truth is quite another, as we all know.

I always keep in mind these words, though I don't often manage to live up to them: "A truth told so as to be understood will be believed."
It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed.
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Re: Truth and lies

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:00 pm

barbarianhorde wrote:Telling the truth is one thing, convincing someone of a truth is quite another, as we all know.

I always keep in mind these words, though I don't often manage to live up to them: "A truth told so as to be understood will be believed."
it's certainly a good start, but I think we need to have new experiences and/or shocks to the system, to change out minds. Or to experience our own beliefs fail blior seem to fail, so we start considering others. I am very skeptical about words on a page or screen convincing. And even when they seem to, the person in question was probably ripe for change. IOW they knew something was off about their own beliefs or incomplete or they were yearning for something else or there were anomolies in their experiences that bugged them. They might not have wanted to notice these things, because of the fear around congnitive dissonence and losing control and not knowing what to believe, but once they see something that gives them a new way to understand, they can then grab for it. It is very disturbing to notice things that seem to or do contradict our beliefs and face them, without having new answers to give us a sense 'we got it'.

So, I rarely see anyone changing their minds online. But in life, I see over time and often with large or catastrophic or life changing experiences, gradual or sudden, I see changes.

And then it helps if you are willing to sit with the pain and not try to just wave it away fast.
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