New Discovery

Okay, on a smaller scale, please note how the author’s discovery can be demonstrated in much the same way as Edison demonstrated his own discoveries.

Exactly. He could not. But your author’s discovery revolves around intellectual assumptions and word definitions that he himself appears unable to demonstrate other than on this smaller scale.

And I’ll await that demonstration from you in the next post. Or not of course.

After all, when I ask you to…

You note this instead:

To which I rejoin…

To which you insist…

To which I am compelled to react with…

Wiggle! Wiggle! Wiggle!

For whatever reason? How could the only reason in a determined universe not be that nature has yet to compel me to want to?

Still, I think what most disappoints me regarding your posts on this thread are the ones that revolve around this:

In my view, refusing to explore this with me in depth can only be defended if in fact you really are compelled by nature to respond as you do.

Otherwise, I am compelled to point out just how unnerved this sort of pursuit seems to make you.

Also, when you fall back on assertions like this…

…without situating it in the gap between what you think you know and all that can be known, I am compelled to feel less and less challenged by you. In fact, I have less and less respect for your intelligence itself.

In my view, you cling to this discovery as a psychological defense mechanism. It’s just one of dozens and dozens of objectivist narratives I have come upon over the years.

Not that I wasn’t entirely compelled to of course.

Thus:

So, if out of the blue [seemingly, but entirely compelled by nature] I now note that “you are fucking idiot!!” that too is necessarily embedded in the only possible reality? I could “choose” to cast the most vile and vicious aspersions on you and all we would both be compelled to acknowledge here is that it was only as it ever could have been?

But this is where these things always get particularly tricky for me. I could say all those crude and caustic things to and about you. Then the moderators could warn me to stop. Then I could choose not to stop. Then I could be banned from ILP.

But nature compels me here and now to not want to be banned from ILP. So I “choose” not to say things that would get me banned.

But: Would this – does this – all unfold in sync with the only possible reality? Or am “I” somehow able to contribute of my own volition to whatever in the future my “fate” turns out to be?

You insist that…

But how on earth can “I” decide anything at all that is not inherently a part of nature deciding everything?

So, having only the options that nature has compelled you to “choose” from, you “choose” not to have a real choice?

That’s not confusing to you?

Well, doesn’t this assume that we move in the direction of greater satisfaction while simultaneously lacking in free will? How does he actually demonstrate this though? Doesn’t he assume that only after we do choose to move in another direction – after the choice itself is made – does free will collapse?

And that down the road [after enough folks “choose” to read his book] the choices to move in particular directions will result in a future in which “progressive” behaviors will revolve entirely around his own assumptions regarding that which constitutes “peace and prosperity”?

How could anything I say be misleading if 1] I am compelled by nature to say only what I must and 2] others are compelled by nature to be misled only as they must?

I’ll be put in danger as nature sees fit. Only nature is still this mysterious entity with mysterious laws that no one is yet able to explain [at least not to me] going back to the existence of existence itself.

You mean, “there nature goes again, compelling you to make the biggest assumption of all…”

This being that nature compels you too to have this particular belief in your head.

Ah, but only here and now. What will nature compel you to believe tomorrow? Next week? Next year?

How about After you are dead and gone?

Just out of curiosity, what do you imagine nature is compelling your author to do here and now?

If everyone was free to move toward transcendence and transformation, wouldn’t they do it?

Only because it would mean we can choose either/or equally, which is what free will means. That’s what it means; they could have chosen otherwise. Just because we have options doesn’t give us free will at all, since we are compelled to move only in one direction, the one that is more satisfying to us when meaningful differences are compared.

Glad you asked. I hope you read chapter two where the answer is given. It would be even better if you read chapter one as well, and then chapter three. I would love to talk to you about it afterwards. How can someone try to excuse himself when he knows he is already excused? What this does is prevents the ability to shift one’s responsibility (the other side of the two-sided equation) leading to conscience being able to justify an act of harm.

http://www.declineandfallofallevil.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Decline-and-Fall-of-All-Evil-2-13-2019-THREE-CHAPTERS.pdf?fbclid=IwAR1ehH5XaQCSCFcNYvHvC_pxbvcl8vpSTDYkkKxNDMECqrpIBpmaLKH88Yo

Because we can control the desire not to strike a first blow by extending the corollary, Thou Shall Not Blame. Blame doesn’t cause a person to desire hurting others, but it allows one to contemplate the idea if the desire is already there. But remember, there is more involved in order for this new world to come about. We have to rid the world of all blame, and there are many forms.

The way you are using the word free is, once again, not what I’m talk about when I use the term free will in this debate. We can feel free and still not have free will. This has become a real communication problem. I like what he says, and we can learn a lot on how to overcome adversity. But this new world removes a lot of the adversity, so we don’t have to work so hard at coping.
[quote="There are things which I know that I must do. They are practical things which have to be done. How does this take away from my free will in doing them? I still have a say in the matter. I can turn my back on them. Why do you associate “must” with not having a choice in the matter? I think it depends on one’s perception and frame of mind.

No one is denying this. With motivation and WILL things can be different or made better, but it’s never done of a FREE will.

Every moment, no matter what we do, is away from a feeling of dissatisfaction (or from here) to satisfaction (there). That is the direction all life takes. It is life’s urge which is pushing us forward. Please try to understand this. It doesn’t matter whether we are contemplating or not. I am moving toward greater satisfaction by scratching an itch on my forehead. It didn’t take deliberation but it was still a movement away from a dissatisfying position. If we were satisfied we would stay in one position and never move.

Not true, having the final word only means that we make the choice (we give permission for that choice to be acted upon), but the choice is never free for the reasons given.

Great!

Determinism does not mean we can predict everything. It’s impossible, but considering there is an infinite of scenarios, there is only one that a person can choose, which is why will is not free. This infinite of scenarios is not an aspect of the will that is free by attribution of value. Your logic is wanting. :confused:

breakingthefreewillillusion.com … #more-1416

You predict or seem to a lot of stuff, you are going to seem several times.

I can’t blame someone for not getting their predictions right, unless they are presenting themselves with utter certainty despite making predictions that require the same kind of knowledge and insight that did not work out. It’s a skill. If you don’t demonstrate this skill, it opens one’s ability up for question.

In this specific case we have someone responding to arguments with, basically,
I am not interested in opinions, my opinions are facts. I speak facts, you speak opinions.

Well, if one has been fallible and responds to others this way, it is arrogance.

We have several chapters of a book that shows some serious communcation problems, a seeming lack of awareness of epistemology, and some really unclear categories. Couple this with a major falied prediction directly related to the entire prediction of the book, and there are very solid grounds for being skeptical.

When this is pointed out and the arrogance related to the arguments and ideas of others continues anyway, it implies that we are dealing with a mind that cannot truly self-question.

I get to pick out of the infinity what I wish to do, regarding value placed, how isn’t that freedom?

You can choose multiple choices though. If you can only choose once, I’d be stuck on repeat forever. The present moment is a continuity, the scenarios are an infinite continuity, see how this matches and choices until death can and will be picking through and of those linked continuities/infinity by value attribution?

Yes, you get to pick from among the scenarios that you are considering (these scenarios that come into your mind are not authored by you either). You can say I was able to choose this or that freely (without pressure or external constraint) , but we are constrained by this movement toward greater satisfaction, and it’s a one way street. Having a myriad of options AT YOUR DISPOSAL at any given moment (how can there be an infinity?), and being able to choose freely (without external constraint), is what many people call freedom. How did philosophers get so confused between this freedom and freedom of will? I said earlier that the term freedom can be used correctly, without a person having freedom of the will. I can also say, as long as it’s qualified: “I did this of my own free will because I wanted to do it.” This also does not mean you did this of your own free will in the sense that you could have done otherwise."

I didn’t say you could only choose once. Most of us make choices all day long, so how can we be stuck on repeat forever?

Life is a continuity, and scenarios are constantly changing (i.e., an infinite continuity), and we link those continuities by value attribution. Why did the author say we are compelled, AMONG MEANINGFUL DIFFERENCES (value attribution) that which gives us greater satisfaction than what the present position offers?

What about two views of existence, One that believes that in the absolute inorganic beginning, a choice could not be spoken about, since a choice may be predetermined consciously.

If so, either choice has to be qualified at some continua at the beginning if self consciousness.

If that is the case, a circularity of differential alternating determinations may not accord determination at certain qualifiers.
Or, the other view may be more appropriate, is, to disqualify inorganic determination , where at those occurance, the continuum may not progress toward attainment of more pleasure, unless, the experience ce of pleasure can somehow be appropriated with other then feeling pleasure.
For example , a universal consciousness could be replaced for self consciousness, which takes pleasure in creating the self consciousness that was missing .

And that view has persisted in religion as the basis for the willful disobedience by man and his subsequent expulsion. He found the knowledge in the pleasure of the awareness if Creation.

However, if that knowledge is based in Creation, then, the difference between the idea of Creation as pleasurable,reduces to another change in defining how such act becomes intrinsic Within a oretermination, were it becomes a red river absolute if a predetermined and non quafiable pleasure within an absolute and bib differentiable motive .

This later view fits within a Gnostic interpretation of Creation.

If so, then how do the symbols follow each other determinantly, thus de-differentiating causality between conscious choice and teleological cause and effect?

Was this thesis developed from knowledge of such symbolism, or independent of them?

Because, to the best of Your knowledge, Peace gurl, the later was true, then it would seem, a difference may be construed from other then a causal chain; I. e. from intuition, for one.

The point I am trying to make is, that if Your friend intuitef the thesis, then, it would be proof of a credible claim, that a general and absolute notion of dwteemenamcy can be made.

If he was aware of the religious symbolism, differential qualification( such as organic and inorganic : & conscious and unconscious differentials can not present a general framework to the deterministic idea.

How can You, re: within Your understanding dispose of this previously not touched upon.idea?

Because his clam is independent of religious symbolism, predetermination, teleology, self-consciousness, or even pleasure. The variables you are bringing in have nothing to do with the veracity of his claim. The only thing that would prove him wrong is if you can prove to me that we don’t move in the direction of greater satisfaction.

[i]We are not interested in
opinions and theories regardless of where they originate, just in the
truth, so let’s proceed to the next step and prove conclusively, beyond
a shadow of doubt, that what we do of our own free will (of our own
desire because we want to) is done absolutely and positively not of our
own free will. Remember, by proving that determinism, as the
opposite of free will, is true, we also establish undeniable proof that
free will is false.” So without any further ado, let us begin.

The dictionary states that free will is the power of
self-determination regarded as a special faculty of choosing good and
evil without compulsion or necessity. Made, done, or given of one’s
own free choice; voluntary. But this is only part of the definition
since it is implied that man can be held responsible, blamed and
punished for doing what is considered wrong or evil since it is believed
he could have chosen otherwise. In other words, it is believed that
man has the ability to do other than he does, if he wants to, and
therefore can be held responsible for doing what he is not supposed to
do. These very words reveal the fallacy of this belief to those who have
mathematical perception. Man is held responsible not for doing what
he desires to do or considers right, better or good for himself under
his particular set of circumstances, but for doing what others judge to
be wrong or evil, and they feel absolutely certain he could have acted
otherwise had he wanted to. Isn’t this the theme of free will? But
take note. Supposing the alternative judged right for him by others
is not desired by himself because of conditions known only to him,
what then? Does this make his will free? It is obvious that a great
part of our lives offers no choice, consequently, this is not my
consideration. For example, free will does not hold any person
responsible for what he does in an unconscious state like hypnosis, nor
does it believe that man can be blamed for being born, growing,
sleeping, eating, defecating, urinating, etc.; therefore, it is
unnecessary to prove that these actions, which come under the normal
compulsion of living, are beyond control. Supposing a father is
desperately in need of work to feed his family but cannot find a job.

Let us assume he is living in the United
States and for various reasons doesn’t come under the consideration
of unemployment compensation or relief and can’t get any more
credit for food, clothing, shelter, etc.; what is he supposed to do? If
he steals a loaf of bread to feed his family the law can easily punish
him by saying he didn’t have to steal if he didn’t want to, which is
perfectly true. Others might say stealing is evil, that he could have
chosen an option which was good. In this case almost any other
alternative would have sufficed. But supposing this individual
preferred stealing because he considered this act good for himself in
comparison to the evil of asking for charity or further credit because
it appeared to him, at that moment, that this was the better choice of
the three that were available to him — so does this make his will free?
It is obvious that he did not have to steal if he didn’t want to, but he
wanted to, and it is also obvious that those in law enforcement did not
have to punish him if they didn’t want to, but both sides wanted to do
what they did under the circumstances.

In reality, we are carried along on the wings of time or life during
every moment of our existence and have no say in this matter
whatsoever. We cannot stop ourselves from being born and are
compelled to either live out our lives the best we can, or commit
suicide. Is it possible to disagree with this? However, to prove that
what we do of our own free will, of our own desire because we want to
do it, is also beyond control, it is necessary to employ mathematical
(undeniable) reasoning. Therefore, since it is absolutely impossible
for man to be both dead and alive at the same time, and since it is
absolutely impossible for a person to desire committing suicide unless
dissatisfied with life (regardless of the reason), we are given the ability
to demonstrate a revealing and undeniable relation.

Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action,
from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is
never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always like an
inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now
call the present moment of time or life here for the purpose of
clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now
standing on this present moment of time and space called here and
you are given two alternatives, either live or kill yourself; either move
to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving
a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.

“I prefer…” Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you
started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes
it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is
death or here and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion
is life. Consequently, the motion of life which is any motion from
here to there is a movement away from that which dissatisfies,
otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you
would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly
moves away from here to there, which is an expression of
dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move
constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction.

It should be
obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is
determined by a law over which we have no control because even if we
should kill ourselves we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction,
otherwise we would not kill ourselves. The truth of the matter is that
at any particular moment the motion of man is not free for all life
obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to
make choices, decisions, and to prefer of whatever options are
available during his lifetime that which he considers better for himself
and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a
discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to
candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it for his motion, just being
alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction.
Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress he always did
what he had to do because he had no choice.

Although this
demonstration proves that man’s will is not free, your mind may not
be accustomed to grasping these type relations, so I will elaborate.
Supposing you wanted very much of two alternatives A, which we
shall designate something considered evil by society, instead of B, the
humdrum of your regular routine; could you possibly pick B at that
particular moment of time if A is preferred as a better alternative
when nothing could dissuade you from your decision, not even the
threat of the law? What if the clergy, given two alternatives, choose
A, which shall now represent something considered good, instead of
B, that which is judged evil; would it be possible for them to prefer the
latter when the former is available as an alternative? If it is utterly
impossible to choose B in this comparison are they not compelled, by
their very nature, to prefer A; and how can they be free when the
favorable difference between A and B is the compulsion of their
choice and the motion of life in the direction of greater satisfaction?
To be free, according to the definition of free will, man would be able
to prefer of two alternatives, either the one he wants or the one he
doesn’t want, which is an absolute impossibility because selecting what
he doesn’t want when what he does want is available as an alternative
is a motion in the direction of dissatisfaction. In other words, if man
was free he could actually prefer of several alternatives the one that
gives him the least satisfaction, which would reverse the direction
of his life, and make him prefer the impossible.
[/i]

Ok again. I am still conflicted as to wanting to erase the above, since I thought of some thing, that may change the idea of which narrative would be more appropriate. So if I decide, to opt for a more simple and better understood version. HOPING THIS ONE, THEN THIS ONE SHOULD BE THE VERSION THAT HAS BEEN DETERMINED TO BE THE RIGHT ONE.

The will to choose is never a factor, even if, the many choices seem to suggest otherwise, and the final choice us the only measure of the veracity of its determination.

I think this is the preferred one , and it sits more comfortably.
But: no one knows what has been predetermined, until its determination becomes manifest.

Its the final battle, not in the sense of good against evil, but in the sense of man against himself… His intention, toward the good, the light, is ore formed and performed at every moment, and in that performance lies his destiny, and the moment it is done, it changes all prior determinations.
It is the will, through power, !

( Preferrably for the good, though they are never known until their effects become manifest)

peacegirl,

This post was meant for either Karpel Tunnel or Phyllo but…

But I would say that that depends on the individual. So much depends on the individual and how he sees and responds to the world.

I may be wrong in how I see what you are saying above. I can imagine that the more self-conscious (not ego), self-aware, caring human being might, after coming to realize/discover that will, his will, is not so free and self-determined as he thought, might then be very careful with his decisions, strive to hone his sense of response ability and “to do no harm” to a greater degree.

But what of the other kind of individual? The psychopath, the sociopath, the rapist, the pedophile, et cetera?
Your “truth” might give them “just cause” within their own minds to do what they wanted - after all, they cannot be held responsible for their actions. This is what I meant before by a “slippery slope”. Even the more balanced individual might begin to feel that way afterwards - we often come to convince ourselves of something which is more alluring and likable to us. Remember, one size does not fit all.

Feel free to take your time with the other post if you get swamped and do not forget to smell the flowers.

Hi Meno, :evilfun:

Personally speaking, I just do not see it - that we have been pre-determined, like we have been written in the stars, fated or destined for this life or that life. the chosen one. I think it is ego and fatalism.

Even when something supposedly becomes manifest, does that necessarily spell the end of its journey?
Your words reminded me of this little poignant story. We never, never know, do we?

Who Knows? The Farmer’s Son:
Fortune or Misfortune?

  • and -

Commentary:What More Can Be Said?

rainbowbody.com/newarticles/farmerson.htm

:happy-smileyinthebox:

I’m not sure what that means. I have a will and my will wants to choose, so how is the will not a factor?

Right.

I never read Nietzsche, is that what you’re referring to? The concept of the will to power is interesting, but what I am sharing is how to remove the hurt that exists in human relation. It’s not good against evil, as if there’s the good guys against the bad guys. But there is hurt in this world, and that’s what this knowledge has the power to prevent.

[/quote]
You’re right, we can’t know until the effects are manifest which takes place at every moment.

Peacegirl can’t respond to basic refutations:

viewtopic.php?p=2730251#p2730251

viewtopic.php?p=2729829#p2729829

Peacegirl has been disproven. If it’s a cosmic law, than like gravity, we should all have no choice but to obey it.

Peacegirl is just an absurd character, someone without freewill … oh, the irony!

His observations were correct. He didn’t use the scientific method starting with a hypothesis and then finding data to support it. That’s not how he came to these findings. Each person can see for himself by using themselves as the subject matter to see if these principles work as they think about how they would react when all blame is removed from the environment. It will be empirically proven that under these conditions no one will be able not only not to desire hurting a living soul but not to desire gaining at anyone’s expense, just as the bridge will be built. It’s just a matter of time.

This discovery will be presented in a step by step fashion that brooks no
opposition and your awareness of this matter will preclude the
possibility of someone adducing his rank, title, affiliation, or the long
tenure of an accepted belief as a standard from which he thinks he
qualifies to disagree with knowledge that contains within itself
undeniable proof of its veracity.

What does the fact that will is not free have to do with being objective? It doesn’t make sense. We still have a brain, we still can think, we still can do all the things that a person with free will could do, if there was such a thing. Maybe it’s back to the same mistaken definition that’s confusing you.

What does subconscious imagery about a future event negate the FACT that man’s will is not free? We can imagine all sorts of things. Sometimes I think we’re talking a different language. No one is listening to the other.

Yes, we often have multiple options to choose from. Every decision we make is a movement toward a more satisfactory position than where are now standing. If there are no good options, we are compelled to choose the lesser of two evils, or the least unfavorable choice.

You could have chosen the strawberry when comparing it to chocolate, if you had desired it, but you chose the chocolate, even if the choices were equally desired which is equivalent to choosing A and A. Not a meaningful difference. Looking back, you could NOT have chosen the strawberry. Later on, you may decide to eat the the strawberry rather than the chocolate, if that is your preference. We live in the present and each moment offers us a new set of possibilities. But that is different than saying you could have chosen otherwise, which is impossible.

You are right. That is a faulty definition of determinism. Each moment is new and continuous, and we get to choose “freely” (without external constraint), but we don’t have free will, as I explained, because we cannot move backward (in the direction of what would give us less satisfaction) when life itself pushes us always in the direction away from dissatisfaction.

We don’t have to IF WE DON’T WANT TO. Determinism is not prescriptive although once a choice is made we can say correctly that this choice could not have been otherwise because it is the only choice that could have been made per the laws of our nature. I said so many times that the conventional definition of determinism is faulty, not determinism itself. If you would hear me out, you would see that we are in agreement.

Responsibility is increased with this knowledge, but this judgment as to what a person should have chosen (CHCO) is part of the problem.

In the new world people will not desire to hurt anyone when there is no justification to do so. Right now, people have justification. As long as they feel justified conscience WILL permit the act. The word “immoral” is not applicable because it’s a judgment of good and bad. In actuality, no one is good or bad, just doing what they do in the direction of greater satisfaction. This is incredible because the change in environment causes a change in human conduct, rendering hurting others the least preferable choice among meaningful options. That’s the only thing that changes. People will be freer than ever to do whatever they find preferable with no one telling them what to do or what is best for them. Big government will be a thing of the past.

So you think it would be better if we had this choice as well just so that it could be demonstrated we really had free will ?
But what actual purpose would that have given that we would still want to choose the most satisfactory choice available ?

What if nothing gives us lasting satisfaction except that which we do out of true freedom?
I seem to experience this as being the case. I can’t be truly satisfied truly if I just “fulfill my carnal desires” or something like that. It satisfies a lack but it doesn’t satisfy justification of Being.

This is why I am such a good cook, among other things. I always make it a little better than it should technically be able to be.

So what Im saying is, your absolute, peacegirl, is not an exactitude. So you can’t use it as the crux of an argument.
Satisfaction could just mean the lowering of tensions. But that doesn’t give any qualia of the tension, it doesn’t give substance, it doesn’t predict.

Because satisfaction is a term that doesn’t differentiate into qualities.
Maybe thats too technical but Im just saying.