Hi peacegirl
I understand that our thinking and our decisions are not free to a great extent. They can be bound up by all kinds of pre-determined realities but if you will begin with the letter A and proceed onward, can you not see that at some point in time along that journey, name your own letter, your thinking can and will eventually become based in reason and in what is the most practical outcome. From there, your OWN will takes over and all constraints melt away. What is left or may I say begun in that moment, is in a way, a tabula rasa of a human being.
Yes, I can of course agree with that - in part. The statement is obviously true but at the same time, there had to be some “defining” moments for some/many of them, moments when perhaps they experienced a particularly horrible scene (they all were) which made their “free” Self rise up thus motivating them to become more than “part and parcel” of who and what they were before, thereby becoming self-determined humans in the moment whose potential would become known in the future. I may not have expressed that well enough so that you would know what I mean.
I still think that you are throwing the baby out with the dirty bathwater. Just like “love” to me is more a matter of “action”, not just feelings, resolute, self-determination based on right conscious reasoning followed by action becomes free will. That might not make any sense to you.
Putting that scenario aside, many do not make “conscious” choices. We make them on a whim, the ones which best suit our desire and our time-line, even though it is true that what we sow in haste, we shall reap at our leisure. When we have determined, through reflection and clear thinking what is the best possible outcome for something, that is exercising our free will, our autonomy.
Leaves which blow in the wind and are carried here and there are not actually free. Their movements are not based in conscious thinking or decision making for their survival. They are not autonomous. They do not have the will to go their own way or to come to a halt when they feel like it. They are not capable of feeling like it. They do not have consciousness, mind, spirits or hearts with which to guide their existence.
So, are you saying that these people in the concentration camps were no better than leaves blowing in the wind simply because they were imprisoned? Are you actually saying that at no time did they experience the inner power to transform their selves and to make the decision to see their selves as human beings exercising free will?
They were “consciously” moving in the direction of greater satisfaction…these were not random unconscious acts - they were “deliberate” - they knew or felt what it would pretty much take to survive. That does not speak to me of a lack of free will.
Yes, their lives were horribly in the hands of others but not necessarily their minds and their hearts. That is what determines the individual’s inner freedom and freedom of the will.
You would say that because of certain conditions and circumstance within a person’s life, there can be no free will. Every act has already been spoken for, decreed - like Judas Iscariot hanging himself because he felt that there was no other way, no other possible outcome. He could not envision otherwise but that does not mean that he could NOT if he had given himself the chance to re-think his options.
I would say that DESPITE these things, conditions and circumstances AND BECAUSE of these things, every act and decision performed can arise from a freedom of the will because so much had already been against the grain, in the tar pit, whatever. The way I look at it, the greater one’s will has been restrained and undermined, the greater the power to Will freedom, upheaval and transcendence and to act on that.
History has shown that as much as it has shown the other.
…
[i]Every motion, from the beating heart to the slightest reflex action,
from all inner to outer movements of the body, indicates that life is
never satisfied or content to remain in one position for always like an
inanimate object, which position shall be termed ‘death.’ I shall now
call the present moment of time or life here for the purpose of
clarification, and the next moment coming up there. You are now
standing on this present moment of time and space called here and
you are given two alternatives, either live or kill yourself; either move
to the next spot called there or remain where you are without moving
a hair’s breadth by committing suicide.
“I prefer…” Excuse the interruption, but the very fact that you
started to answer me or didn’t commit suicide at that moment makes
it obvious that you were not satisfied to stay in one position, which is
death or here and prefer moving off that spot to there, which motion
is life. Consequently, the motion of life which is any motion from
here to there is a movement away from that which dissatisfies,
otherwise, had you been satisfied to remain here or where you are, you
would never have moved to there. Since the motion of life constantly
moves away from here to there, which is an expression of
dissatisfaction with the present position, it must obviously move
constantly in the direction of greater satisfaction. It should be
obvious that our desire to live, to move off the spot called here, is
determined by a law over which we have no control because even if we
should kill ourselves we are choosing what gives us greater satisfaction,
otherwise we would not kill ourselves.
The truth of the matter is that
at any particular moment the motion of man is not free for all life
obeys this invariable law. He is constantly compelled by his nature to
make choices, decisions, and to prefer of whatever options are
available during his lifetime that which he considers better for himself
and his set of circumstances. For example, when he found that a
discovery like the electric bulb was for his benefit in comparison to
candlelight, he was compelled to prefer it for his motion, just being
alive, has always been in the direction of greater satisfaction.
Consequently, during every moment of man’s progress he always did
what he had to do because he had no choice. Although this
demonstration proves that man’s will is not free, your mind may not
be accustomed to grasping these type relations, so I will elaborate.
[/i]
How close either of us is to the truth I cannot say for sure. But I DO see both in a way as our own opinion, our own subjective thinking or perception. Many of us perceive things in one way and many of us in other ways. This is why I think that philosophy may never get to the end of this question. Is it supposed to? How can you be absolutely sure about this? Much in philosophy is supposition and theory, no?
Why not? Human beings are highly complex creatures. Some of us see with tunnel vision and others with a more panoramic vision. Some of us have the ability to hold to separate thoughts about something in our minds at the same time and then come to the conclusion after investigation, whatever, that both can be part of the same truth.
Do you see opposites - as in light and dark, night and day, hot and cold, wet and dry, good and evil, joy and pain, et cetera? Or are you of one mind who gathers them into Oneness, wholeness. That may not be a good example insofar as free will or not free will.
Perhaps what philosophy needs to do then is to completely drop the word “free” from the situation. lol I think that I am only kidding here.
The fact that he is able to transcend what the other person cannot shows me that there is more a sense of freedom and will power motivating him. This person made a conscious decision based on reflection and what is it Nietzsche said - turning everything upside down, inside out, this way and that way. Free will takes over in these instances - at least to me they do. We need to be able to see ourselves as being able to push through that locked box (bad example) and crawling out. If we cannot envision the box being opened, there cannot be free will.
But this is where consciousness comes in for me. Examination/investigation of who we are and how we are influenced, considering all aspects of a situation, thinking ahead and asking how this or that choice might influence a conclusion - there is free will in that. There is no shabby thinking or being lead by patterns or triggers. The more grounded we are, the more conscious and self-aware we are, the freer our will and choices are. We are not leaves in the wind.
That there shows the potential for free will depending on which path an individual chooses to take. Either way, it is his choice. An individual either makes the movement toward transcendence and transformation or he stays in the quicksand.
Why does “the direction of greater satisfaction” have to be devoid of free will?
I may be misunderstanding you here. This can lead to a real slippery slope I think.
This might not lead to a better world but one where people offer excuses for the horrible things which they do or think that they have a right to do because, well, after all, “there is no free will and I live in an already determined world. I am like the Borg. What could I have done.”
But again I might be misunderstanding you here. Can you offer an example.
How can your absolute thinking about there being no “free” will help the cause then?
This is just a suggestion. Maybe you can take Jung’s advice and incorporate “gladly” into some of your decision-making and see what happens, how it makes you feel. Does it make you feel any different, freer, like you were the one in control and autonomous? First you would have to withhold your belief in a lack of free will for a little while. Or not.
There are things which I know that I must do. They are practical things which have to be done. How does this take away from my free will in doing them? I still have a say in the matter. I can turn my back on them. Why do you associate “must” with not having a choice in the matter? I think it depends on one’s perception and frame of mind.
Of course, when it comes to mental illness; for instance, things like being bipolar or having OCD or tourettes, I can see your point. We ARE pre-determined in ways. But even there, things can be different or made better, with motivation and one’s will.
Did the stoics feel compelled to do things or were they free and easy about them because they decided it was intelligent and practical to do these things or to live in this way. Where is the compulsion there?
I may not be interpreting your words clearly with the above, but you seem, to me, to be refuting your own “belief” that there is no such thing as free will.
I can certainly agree with you about the language problem.
Some times the choices which we inevitably have to make do not necessarily bring us in the direction of greater satisfaction and we are quite aware of this. But we do choose to make the choice for the greater good. The only time, for me, when we do not choose freely is when we are all bound up with indecision, regret and obsession about it both before and afterwards.
Granted, perhaps I still am not sure what you mean by the direction of greater satisfaction. Maybe you mean what I mean when I say “for the greater good”.
My pleasure. But where was my coffee?
I already found it through your italicized words above. I will give it a shot as I can. Perhaps it will give me a little more insight into your lack of “seeing” free will at all.
This is something which we all have to keep in mind…
“We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are.” - Anais Nin
I love going through tunnels but I especially love when we come out of them and see the whole panorama of what is around us. Totally different vision, right?