The Philosophers

The American empire is coming to end end, isn’t it.

It has been overtaken by women, and it is becoming a living hell. People now want to escape it.

It turns out that Trump simply prevented our destruction and killed the mass murderers abroad, but can’t save the USA. It has shown that it really doesn’t have the female substance to merit saviour.

Who, abroad, would want to be with an American woman? Unheard of. By and large the ugliest, stupidest, most banally selfish women in the world.

Women who unflinchingly stab to death the breathing, feeling child in their womb and scoff at heroic saving of millions of children in he Middle East - there havent walked any eviler demons on the planet. Nazi wives were reasonably cool in comparison to the American left.

I give up on trying.

The closest friend I have here constantly turns his back on himself, and among the people I am cool to there are mostly supporters of the most murderous, sickest politicians that ever were.

Humanity… what a joke.

What kind of absolute MONSTER would it take to carry a child for 7 or 8 months and THEN decide to kill it?

Such people should never have existed. It is clear where it will all end for them.

I guess nature now needs there to be something terrible, for such creatures to learn to know themselves, to learn something about what they ve been doing to others.

Its always been the case that the American woman was the ugly, bloated miscreant of the world. That used to only go for the white ones, but it has become universal. Overprivileged and completely ignorant of human realities, somehow this does not make for aristocracy. It only makes for utterly unweddable trash.

It has been a war that splits families for some years now, Ive lived things Id been raised to think of as of the distant past, of the days of Christian civil wars, but my grandmother did see it coming.

People insisting that late stage abortions are a human right are an undeniable symptom of the end of their line. It is worse than suicide, it is the style of suicide that is there for people too scared to hurt themselves. The suicide of a decadent line,

The women who perform such late stage abortions are the abominations of the earth. The very vilest beings ever to appear.

Poor women.
They’ve been left unguided.

Given that my posts have gotten quite a few views I have hope that even through the idiots who respond have insisted on remaining murdering scumbags, there are those who have been struck in their hearts and changed their minds.

It is also clear why there is this huge obsession in leftist girls for using big dicks to fuck themselves in the throat, or why they love “having their sinuses cleaned” as one once put it to me afterwards. It is because they know very well that they talk too much. They know they’re immoral whores who need to be shut up. But since they are illiterates and certainly not versed in logic, the dick is the only thing that will shut them up, and they love it for it. It is more than love, it is obsession.

Going down, down down…

fucking America.

Im gonna enjoy the rest of the goddamn show.

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PostSubject: Slavery Slavery Icon_minitimeMon Nov 28, 2011 7:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Should individuals, races, sexes, classes and cultures choose to dominate, to submit, or to be free?

Civilization requires more than just intelligence, it requires domestication, slavery of people, places and things. Ants and bees domesticate their environment, in addition to specializing and collaborating, but they do so instinctively, we do so intelligently.

The Master/slave dialectic, in addition to interdependence (large tribes) is more efficient and has replaced the predator/prey, the hunter/hunted dialectic, in addition to independence (small tribes). A surplus of goods can now be extracted. How much surplus does one require? How much is healthy? Some choose to maximize consumption, some choose to minimize.

Slavery can manifest in subtler ways than mere brute force, when dealing with members of our own species e.g. capitalism, religion, etc.

How much should we domesticate people, places and things, and how much should we allow ourselves to be domesticated?

Civilization has advantages and disadvantages, there’s been times when I’ve contemplated living more simply.

This is what I meant by the dilemma of civilization-

Intelligence + dexterity trumps all, or nearly all other qualities- speed, strength, endurance, agility, stamina (actually, humans have superior stamina as well).

This current, relative monopoly on intelligence has offset the balance, the equilibrium of nature. Like playing a game of rock paper scissors where rock can crush paper and scissors.

The ancients comprehended the supreme dilemma even better than we do today. The fall of Aryan Atlantis (assuming it happened) was more fresh in their minds. Where as Nietzsche tells the more left brain tale of master/slave morality, the ancients tell more right brain tales.

It is Prometheus’ fire, Pandora’s box and Eve’s apple. With knowledge comes the power to destroy nature and create artifice, to convert more and more nature into artifice.

It has to do with our natural needs- physical, emotional and mental. Primitive man is closer to deprivation, Civilized man is closer to decadence. At the dawn of the French revolution, it was said 90% of the people died of starvation, and 10% of the people died of gluttony. Who was better off? I suppose I’d rather die of gluttony, but…

The advantage of civilization is- it gives 1 access to more resources. 1 is more able to satisfy their basic needs. The disadvantage is- it gives 1 access to more resources. 1 is more able to satisfy their basic needs… and more, much, much more, way beyond what is required. In addition to the depletion and the destruction of that which we’re dependent on, our environment, abundance and affluence can be detrimental to our own health.

Should the victors (rich, white men) share their spoils with the unfortunate, the vanquished, give back the surplus they’ve took from nature (after all, they don’t need it, right?), or should they hoard it, and take even more, take as much as the earth can bare, increase their wealth and power at the expense of all who live under the sun… and beyond?

Now, socialism is not necessarily slave morality (you could call it challenger morality), if the slaves take by force and unhypocritically, rather, it becomes slave morality when they attempt to convince the rich/powerful to share with them, or when they deceive (unless of course it is genuine) themselves into thinking they’d share if they were in their place.

The rich/powerful can also be hypocritical, and seek to justify their reign beyond will to power, beyond survival of the fittest, monarchs and capitalists have been known to do this… or is it genuine?

Is slave morality a hoax, a scam? Or do rich men have nothing to lose by being charitable, and their souls to gain? Western civilization, 500 years of raping, pillaging, plundering and swindling, was it all for not? Should we have never set sail for America?

Europeans freed themselves from bondage, but then we proceeded to enslave the whole earth. Now the greens and liberals want to give it back. Who’s right, who’s wrong and… why?

Perhaps the European, being the superior man, is more capable of love and hate, ferocity and tenderness. Nothing can stop the European, perhaps, except himself, or extraterrestrial intervention. High civilization may weaken, atrophy man, his body and his spirit. Perhaps atrophy, in addition to slave morality, is natures way of correcting herself, and reestablishing equilibrium. However, equilibrium may not be desirable. Is there a way to keep European man strong, healthy, in spite of circumstances that make him girlish and contented?

Should the white race specifically, or the human race in general, go on exploiting nature and other humans… or should we power down our economy?
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PostSubject: Re: Slavery Slavery Icon_minitimeMon Nov 28, 2011 10:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
Should individuals, races, sexes, classes and cultures choose to dominate, to submit, or to be free?

Civilization requires more than just intelligence, it requires domestication, slavery of people, places and things. Ants and bees domesticate their environment, in addition to specializing and collaborating, but they do so instinctively, we do so intelligently.

The Master/slave dialectic, in addition to interdependence (large tribes) is more efficient and has replaced the predator/prey, the hunter/hunted dialectic, in addition to independence (small tribes). A surplus of goods can now be extracted. How much surplus does one require? How much is healthy? Some choose to maximize consumption, some choose to minimize.
Do you mean that the master/slave dialectic produces an offspring of surplus? Interesting. Is that Hegel?

Quote :
Slavery can manifest in subtler ways than mere brute force, when dealing with members of our own species e.g. capitalism, religion, etc.

How much should we domesticate people, places and things, and how much should we allow ourselves to be domesticated?

We are operating from a paradigm of thirst, we are consuming everything that is at hand. There is no metaphysical meaning – no relation direct of the physiology to the psyche – so there is no sense for what is real, and what is not. We need to establish it, “scientifically”. which means artificially, through coercion of consciousness by means of the senses.

This urge is entirely compulsive and has nothing of calculation in it. The calculations following from it are therefore not at all strictly to our benefit, but simply of a great effect. It is this urge that we should cultivate, because we are already cultivating all the rest because of this urge.

Quote :
Civilization has advantages and disadvantages, there’s been times when I’ve contemplated living more simply.
What would that entail?
It is also a challenge to live by more simple principles, but to allow oneself all the complexities of living.

Quote :
This is what I meant by the dilemma of civilization-

Intelligence + dexterity trumps all, or nearly all other qualities- speed, strength, endurance, agility, stamina (actually, humans have superior stamina as well).

This current, relative monopoly on intelligence has offset the balance, the equilibrium of nature. Like playing a game of rock paper scissors where rock can crush paper and scissors.

The ancients comprehended the supreme dilemma even better than we do today. The fall of Aryan Atlantis (assuming it happened) was more fresh in their minds. Where as Nietzsche tells the more left brain tale of master/slave morality, the ancients tell more right brain tales.

It is Prometheus’ fire, Pandora’s box and Eve’s apple. With knowledge comes the power to destroy nature and create artifice, to convert more and more nature into artifice.
But the concept “nature” is an artifice.
There is no one nature, there are natures.
There is never a totality of it, there is always only an amount of interactions of them, forming “webs of meaning” what one may call value-systems, in which interaction is useful to the end of existing-as-such.

Quote :
It has to do with our natural needs- physical, emotional and mental. Primitive man is closer to deprivation, Civilized man is closer to decadence. At the dawn of the French revolution, it was said 90% of the people died of starvation, and 10% of the people died of gluttony. Who was better off? I suppose I’d rather die of gluttony, but…

The advantage of civilization is- it gives 1 access to more resources. 1 is more able to satisfy their basic needs. The disadvantage is- it gives 1 access to more resources. 1 is more able to satisfy their basic needs… and more, much, much more, way beyond what is required. In addition to the depletion and the destruction of that which we’re dependent on, our environment, abundance and affluence can be detrimental to our own health.

Should the victors (rich, white men) share their spoils with the unfortunate, the vanquished, give back the surplus they’ve took from nature (after all, they don’t need it, right?), or should they hoard it, and take even more, take as much as the earth can bare, increase their wealth and power at the expense of all who live under the sun… and beyond?
To a great extent western man has exhausted its (moral, energetic) resources and needs the east now, to find there a ground of meaning, to include the other in a more meaningful, fertile and productive discourse.

Given that Europe has been the cradle of much of what we now value as culture, what is the state of affairs at this point? By which valuing system is the European man still to be valued superior? Is this valuing system still operative? If so, can we define the standard value to it? Other question; Is European man still capable of valung himself as superior?

Quote :
Now, socialism is not necessarily slave morality (you could call it challenger morality), if the slaves take by force and unhypocritically, rather, it becomes slave morality when they attempt to convince the rich/powerful to share with them, or when they deceive (unless of course it is genuine) themselves into thinking they’d share if they were in their place.

The rich/powerful can also be hypocritical, and seek to justify their reign beyond will to power, beyond survival of the fittest, monarchs and capitalists have been known to do this… or is it genuine?

Is slave morality a hoax, a scam? Or do rich men have nothing to lose by being charitable, and their souls to gain? Western civilization, 500 years of raping, pillaging, plundering and swindling, was it all for not? Should we have never set sail for America?
All active morality is a hoax, a trick played on the self, like belief in God. Socialism gave the poor the idea that they were not the downtrodden, but the mighty, the conquerers of history. This alone explains the power of the movement, the will to power, emerging from a stronger self-valuation. The key word was “historical necessity”. This is what replaced God, and gave the simple man a road to necessity.

Quote :
Europeans freed themselves from bondage, but then we proceeded to enslave the whole earth. Now the greens and liberals want to give it back. Who’s right, who’s wrong and… why?

Perhaps the European, being the superior man, is more capable of love and hate, ferocity and tenderness. Nothing can stop the European, perhaps, except himself, or extraterrestrial intervention. High civilization may weaken, atrophy man, his body and his spirit. Perhaps atrophy, in addition to slave morality, is natures way of correcting herself, and reestablishing equilibrium. However, equilibrium may not be desirable. Is there a way to keep European man strong, healthy, in spite of circumstances that make him girlish and contented?

Should the white race specifically, or the human race in general, go on exploiting nature and other humans… or should we power down our economy?
If it is up to me, the Europeans turn their attention back to their regional geography and the values that spring forth from the real world there. Europe has never been a unity, except in competition and armed conflict. Its riches lie entirely in difference, diversity. The EU is a choke-hold. I think that there can never be unity of culture or economical trust when there is no unity of language.

Can Europe devise a different meta-structure to convey its meaning to itself as an entity? Can Europe effectively value itself, as America has done? I doubt it. There is too little understanding and sympathy back and forth, from Sweden tot Italy, from Spain to Germany - unless a great project of art is envisioned, a new classicism so to speak, an Great Style.

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PostSubject: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeThu Dec 01, 2011 6:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Semi rough draft of the first three sections. It needs some work, but I would like to see how others react to it. It should be noted that I employ the term “Amerika” to distinguish the culture of the United States (who brazenly don the title “American”) from the continent, America. The allusion to the Kafka novel is intentional, as I felt Karl’s tumultuous story quite applicable to the mise en scène.

Amerika: An Abstract on Pandemonium

I) Casino

When I reflect upon the origin of these “United States of America” (united only in the sense of their contiguity—and even then, Hawaii and Alaska are outsourced) I find that our forefathers, desperate to escape oppression, set sail for an expansive nature preserve, subsequently passing on disease to the indigenous people whilst dislodging them, razing the preserve, and erecting a meta-casino/amusement park on the ravaged land, providing these unfortunates with trinkets, uncomfortable vestments, shiny objects, and the word of God as recompense—thereby emulating the very beast from which they fled.

This meta-casino runs deep: one notes the designated establishments, but in actuality it is the entire way of life, the entire infrastructure which composes this massive conjunction between meta-casino and meta-amusement park. Indeed I am not the first to identify this analogy; Baudrillard writes: “Disneyland is presented as imaginary in order to make us believe that the rest is real, whereas all of Los Angeles and the America that surrounds it are no longer real, but belong to the hyperreal order and to the order of simulation. It is no longer a question of a false representation of reality (ideology) but of concealing the fact that the real is no longer real, and thus of saving the reality principle.”

Baudrillard, however, missed the mark by about 265 miles of arid desert road—Amerika skulks in that same vision of convoluted debauchery that played hostess to the Good Doctor’s fear and loathing in the third and fourth months of 1971; the quintessence of the United States, its pure, unadulterated essence is Las Vegas, Nevada—the true panegyric of Amerikan Life.

The more money one has, the more of a friend one is to the establishment—not only the casino, but the greater portion of this economy—and once your reserve runs dry, you are swiftly booted to the street. Notice how the stripper, upon learning she’s bled you dry, immediately abandons you, the illusion of sexual interaction being a simulation fueled by capital (and where has capitalism, where has the corporation not infiltrated?). They give you the illusion of possibility, that these women are actually attracted to you, that they are going to sleep with you—but they are not. There are those who see through the charade, but they are either too few and dissimulated as wacko conspiracy theorists (the true wackos—contrail theorists and the like—exist as a permanent ad hominem so that any theory not consented by the government appears entirely ludicrous) or they are those unfortunate golems in whose heads have been placed Thompson’s words, “No, no. Calm down. Learn to enjoy losing.”

It’s all a gamble, a rouse to play statistics, to perpetuate that Amerikan dream—chants of “Yes We Can!” resounding ad nauseam to rally the troops. Again one observes the United States reflected in the casino: the lovely waitresses not only serve drinks but actively affect the psychologies of the male ego; that perpetuated meme of winning big (“Make me rich. Make me very rich. Oh, you bastard!”) when the truth is advertised proudly on every banner: “What happens here, stays here.”—that penultimate social contract of collusion. The winners exist only to perpetuate the myth that anyone can win. This is the mise en scène of the United States: The Illusion of Potential.

II) Cinctures and Methods of Control

Foucalt, and subsequently Deleuze, saw this looming titanic ghoul on the horizon—the societies of control—only it is no longer looming; it is here. There is, ever present, a process of production, a facsimile of the quality-control conveyor belts in mass-production facilities. Everywhere, we erect Henry Ford’s assembly line, mass producing food, buildings and everything in between. The unique is taboo, “diversity is now our greatest fear.”

Look at the school: the students file into this closed structure—a mimesis of prison architecture down to the gates and door locks (but the locker rooms and showers provide no privacy)—where they are taught how to pass a standardized test. The exceptionally well conforming producers (of grades, of performing the task they are commanded to) are given advanced options to prepare for an alternate or augmented program, separated from the standard whereas the underachievers are selected for an entirely different special program or simply drop out—the rejects thrown away at the end of the work day. This remaining majority portion is then packaged and labeled, placed on the shelf and taught to advertise themselves (like the toys in a store with a revealed button circled and annotated: “push me!”) to colleges where they then receive their brand names after passing the sorting apparatus and the final quality control check point.

Let us not forget that pivotal method, the universal dissemination of desiring-production—advertising/marketing—that virulent, uninhibited exploitation of the “grass is always greener” paradox. Buy this coin commemorating the attacks on 9/11, a $100 value, yours for just $19.99. Is indolence becoming an obstacle for optimal production in your work place? Don’t get more sleep; drink a 5-hour Energy—with only 5 calories.

We see police psychologies in infinite variation between the honest Joe who patrols not to punish but to seek justice and the pugnacious individual-qua-bouncer—the hired muscle—with the ethos of a mercenary. But to counteract this, we have detective novels, CSI, Law & Order, etc.; the apotheosis necessary to enlist a wider demographic, a technique also employed by the military (give the kids toy guns, toy soldiers, have them play cops and robbers, G.I Joe, hook them young and sync that meme before their frontal lobes develop).

We apply universally the methods which predicate the irrigation system, the internal combustion engine—controlled failure. The faucet, the lawn sprinkler, the shower; these are all controlled leaks. So we see, once again, this system employed on individual economies. The Hallmark Holidays simulate cultural imperatives of quid pro quo, where two or more parties exchange gifts of purportedly equivalent value so that one fails to notice the shell game just played: both individuals’ capital returned to the grid whereas each individual is now holding an object of substantially insufficient value to compensate for their loss. Our flight attendants will refer you to your calendar to see the conveniently located exits for your capital. Enjoy your trip and thank you for choosing Thievery International.

Everywhere we see these multitudinous channels: the broadcast and its content determined by statistical demographics which in turn determine the demographics themselves; roads and their breaks/flows of circuitry programmed by traffic engineers; the schools you can attend and the degress you can get from them—these things are all hierarchical channel structures, not the tree but the river delta.

And what of the addiction the U.S. thrives on? Tobacco, alcohol, violence, adrenaline, caffeine, sex, gambling, video games, hypochondria, television, illicit drugs, the deal; these are all perpetuated, marketed by various social memes, advertising in all its forms (peer pressure is a form of advertising: “If you’re cool, you’ll buy Soulja Boy, you’ll eat Vicodin and Roxies, drink Colt 45” etc.) so that above all else, Amerika is addicted to validation by one’s peers.

Addiction leads to deficient serotonin production; your brain in essence acknowledges external stimuli as the trigger for serotonin release, whatever that stimulus may be. What a precarious tightrope we walk here knowing the empathetic potential of man; ergo the appeal of various gradations of virtual realities like television or video games—this sort of escape into a more user-friendly vicarious experience where you can live out your fantasies without the consequences (of those fantasies; you are not free from consequence in general). You can watch soap operas, leeching off the empathetic response to these disastrous social situations, feel the righteous indignation when so and so cheats on such and such with so and such, that awful bitch/bastard. You can play MMORPGs where you design your physical appearance in any number of ways, be a man, a woman, an elf, or any number of imaginary creatures; have super powers, do all those things you can’t do in reality and all without having to leave your house.

Like the heroin addict escapes to phantasy, we invest in—subject ourselves to—all manners of phantasmagoria; the voluntary divestment of our personal realities. We all yearn for a sort of stasis and this is crystallized in the success of vapid commercial art; the ersatz and kitsch everywhere outsells the mordant, the genius; forget Mike Patton, we want Korn and System of a Down. We have inverted the maxim: quantity over quality; we want a hundred bands that sound the same, not one that is wholly unique.

III) Recursion and Transposition

There is a golden section of the Amerikan vernacular, a scalable schematic contributing on an unconscious level to the malaise of so many (citi/deni)zens…and Amerikan life is the repletion of this sinister master formula. The economy-schematic is the lottery (scaled up: more scratch-offs, more rules, more participants but the win/loss/prize ratio remains unchanged)—and is it really any wonder that the highest income comprise the smallest proportion…by such a wide margin? Is the stock market not transposed dog races?

Let’s once again isolate the educational cincture. The teachers (or the quality control personnel in the factory) are not free to decide what they teach: their curriculum is dictated to them in the same way they dictate it to the students; their jobs depend on their students’ performance (which is where we depart from the factory analogy, for if the machines are malfunctioning resulting in fewer passable specimens, they are subjected to maintenance or repair rather than sacking the inspectors). But equally, the principal’s employment depends on the school’s collective performance (the inspector-inspector) and so on and so forth until we find that we are simply fighting numbers: the U.S. education system is in a state of exponential decadence, so we fall back on, once again, playing the game of statistics.

Here, however, statistics are tampered with: we identify in what precise skills one needs to excel and conclude that these skills are the parroting of specific data so we teach students not to think but to memorize and repeat (exactly like the production-machines) and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat.

The template is cut and used for that singular purpose; the arteries of creativity are clogged, blocked off, sealed. We are teaching you perspective, today. Draw a line lengthwise across your paper, parallel to the shorter two edges and about two thirds from the bottom. Draw two lines which mirror each other and intersect at the mid point of the first line you drew. Continue by drawing lines parallel to the first line to finish representing the train tracks. Don’t you fucking dare draw anything else, or you’re getting a bad mark! Don’t deviate or you will be subject to maintenance/eviction/termination.

The apartment building—what a deceptive invasion the corporation has here!—is housing conformed to the paradigm of the office, and it is in every way the same schematic as the office (you must interact satisfactorily or you are fired/evicted; you must produce your capital to the company or you are fired/evicted; you must conform to our rules or you are fired/evicted) only the act is cut and you simply shell out your profit to avoid eviction, to avoid the boot to the street. One observes in the business facsimiles of the tenant relationship. The business is a meta-stable entity where the absence of capital causes the company to be evicted in the same way that the tenant is evicted for failing to make rent.

I have a fourth section, but it is disheveled even more so than these three, so I apologize in advance for the anti-climax. Then again, it does fit the Kafka motif…

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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeSat Dec 03, 2011 4:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is fascinating that, within this frame of confinement you describe, it is still possible to feel as if one is free. There is a psychological understanding at the root of this system that is more masterful than anything that has come before. What is always immediately called to my mind here is Nietzsches phrase “superior means of dominion” formulated casting a glance at the 20th century and the increasing possibilities for manipulation of the masses. Disney Land seems to me to be the work of no one less than an Artist Tyrant. The Soviet filmmaker Eisenstein was terrified of Walt Disney, for good reason. What the Soviet propagandists attempted with brutally dishonest idealisms, their American counterparts managed to pull off using seemingly naive and endearing representations of harsh reality. All the fluffy figures in the early cartoons do nothing to hide to the careful observer that there is noting morally admirable going on in their behavior – the hardness of reality is made ‘funny’. I think that this must be one of the keys to understand the Amerika you have described above.

Whenever a European sets foot in the USA, he or she feels elated and free. It is so without many exceptions, without any that I know of at least. Perhaps a few poets were critical enough to hate it from the outset, but most people immediately fall for the sheer ambition and the lack of confining standards, to which they are used. There is a paradox here which I am not able to solve yet. America provides to the immigrant a very real sense of liberty, of opportunity, of respect for what it means to be human – for both the principles of self-valuing and the will to power. The American respects the individual will to power as an ethical principle. In this, he is ahead of the European. But of course, not many have come to this respect on their own, nor is this respect entirely honest. It is too often coupled with nationalism and strange religious dogmas. Still, it works to spark the feeling of power. And we know that this feeling is not essentially different from power itself, and that power is nothing different than will to power, and that this in turn is only possible by a strong self-valuing.

Looking at the statements made by its founding fathers, America seems to have been set up with in mind the principles of self-valuing. Jefferson hailed respect for selfishness as a more credible form of morality, and the pursuit of happiness is nothing other than the work of valuing the world in terms of ones own self-value. There is to me an indisputable goodness at this nations metaphysical, ideational roots. The fact that its legislative structures have been corroded, that the logic has been lost, has not prevented strong ethical will to arise there more frequently and powerfully than it does in Europe, which ethical roots are far more organic, context-bound, pragmatic, on the whole far less philosophical.

I offer this text as a counterbalance, as a measuring-context, to the Kafka-esque description of 20th century America. Ideally we might be able to distill from the madness the metaphysical essence of the nations spirit, which, set loose from its natural legislative boundaries, has taken on such bizarre and self-mutilating forms.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeMon Dec 05, 2011 7:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Whenever a European sets foot in the USA, he or she feels elated and free. It is so without many exceptions, without any that I know of at least. Perhaps a few poets were critical enough to hate it from the outset, but most people immediately fall for the sheer ambition and the lack of confining standards, to which they are used.
I was not aware the United States fooled any modern European. Still, “sheer ambition” and “lack of confining standards” do not seem to me innately good or beneficial foundations for a progressive culture. Additionally, the “lack of confining standards” I cannot agree with, unless you are comparing the situation to that of the Arabic nations, Asia and Africa. I get into this argument quite a bit with my fellow citizens: the danger of a social oppression whose presence is dissimulated by comparison to overtly oppressive social milieus is that it is dissimulated now, systematically disseminating a perpetuating apparatus. That said, what say you of France, Germany, Norway, etc? Marijuana is illegal because stoners don’t mass in armies and declare war on the authorities (as opposed to alcohol, which is a foundation of the United States culture). What of Spain on this point or Amsterdam on prostitution?

Fixed Cross wrote:
Looking at the statements made by its founding fathers, America seems to have been set up with in mind the principles of self-valuing. Jefferson hailed respect for selfishness as a more credible form of morality, and the pursuit of happiness is nothing other than the work of valuing the world in terms of ones own self-value. There is to me an indisputable goodness at this nations metaphysical, ideational roots.
Certainly the practice of self-valuing is in no short supply here, but this is no virtue–especially when the self-valuing includes only the ego–the individual. The pursuit is just that–a pursuit, a wild goose chase. As for the roots, the “goodness” is extant only in the Kantian sense of intention, sense of duty–an entirely naive contention. The best intentions are no stranger to tragedy (for instance, the Army Corps of Engineers and the Mississippi). Disaster is not averted by good will alone.

You say: “The fact that its legislative structures have been corroded, that the logic has been lost, has not prevented strong ethical will to arise there more frequently and powerfully than it does in Europe, which ethical roots are far more organic, context-bound, pragmatic, on the whole far less philosophical.” Which “ethical will” do you speak of? What is this frequency? Have you forgotten Norway? More importantly, is “philosophy” inherently beneficial? The manner in which the United States employs philosophy today is an absolute joke. Our Supreme Court has ruled that pizza is a vegetable.
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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeTue Dec 06, 2011 2:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Whenever a European sets foot in the USA, he or she feels elated and free. It is so without many exceptions, without any that I know of at least. Perhaps a few poets were critical enough to hate it from the outset, but most people immediately fall for the sheer ambition and the lack of confining standards, to which they are used.
I was not aware the United States fooled any modern European.
From my perspective at least, it is the modern American who is fooled into believing that, because of the severe degeneration and increasing stupidity, the entire value system is lost.
All my travels through the USA have been very interesting and fruitful, and the people I come to know there are very much worth knowing, I have learned much there. It seems to me that there is still a boldness to American thinking that can not be found in Europe.

Of course I am very selective in who I speak to long enough to draw such conclusions. The bulk of humanity, wherever you go, is stupid.

Quote :
Still, “sheer ambition” and “lack of confining standards” do not seem to me innately good or beneficial foundations for a progressive culture. Additionally, the “lack of confining standards” I cannot agree with, unless you are comparing the situation to that of the Arabic nations, Asia and Africa.
It is the question what is being confined, of course. But I admit that I may be too positive here, I am aware that there is a great deal of suppression and control in the US, that this is an understatement even. What I speak of is the minds of the people I’ve come to know. There seems to be more ‘‘ethical space’’ at lthe very least than in the Netherlands, anno 2011.

Quote :
I get into this argument quite a bit with my fellow citizens: the danger of a social oppression whose presence is dissimulated by comparison to overtly oppressive social milieus is that it is dissimulated now, systematically disseminating a perpetuating apparatus.
Could you elaborate on this? What is the danger, what is the perpetuating apparatus? What is systematically being dissemminated?

Quote :
That said, what say you of France, Germany, Norway, etc? Marijuana is illegal because stoners don’t mass in armies and declare war on the authorities (as opposed to alcohol, which is a foundation of the United States culture). What of Spain on this point or Amsterdam on prostitution?
Although I know that marijuana possession is used as an excuse for the government to ruin people, I have not noticed any effective restrictions on marijuana in the US. it seems to be readily available in good quality, and much more people smoke it there than in Amsterdam, relatively speaking as well. In California the quality is arguably better and, in case of a medicinal permit which is, so I found out, very hard not to get, more legal than in Amsterdam where it is still illegally produced and sold to the coffeeshops. But that aside, I would not say of such things that they are a real standard for freedom or lack of boundaries.

I like France very much as a country. Germany… I’m not so sure what to think yet. In Norway I’ve never been, its hardly populated and nothing really interesting has come from there since the Vikings, as far as I know. They have very little challenges, politically speaking, compared to the US. That should be a consideration – how does the worlds leading political power maintain order interiorily? Clearly, they are not doing a very good job now, but I doubt that the Norwegian government would manage better if they had a simiar weigth to carry and wealth to manage. It is said that power corrupts -but the US is still a far better place to live than any African or most any Asian country, and I would prefer it to most European nations as well. Italy and France are probably the only exceptions.

But this is all distracting from what you aim to expose – the only thing I can do is give counterweight, knowing that the degeneracy of control and standards in the US is alarmingly real.
I am putting it in context of the rest of what we call the civilized world.

Quote :
Fixed Cross wrote:
Looking at the statements made by its founding fathers, America seems to have been set up with in mind the principles of self-valuing. Jefferson hailed respect for selfishness as a more credible form of morality, and the pursuit of happiness is nothing other than the work of valuing the world in terms of ones own self-value. There is to me an indisputable goodness at this nations metaphysical, ideational roots.
Certainly the practice of self-valuing is in no short supply here, but this is no virtue–especially when the self-valuing includes only the ego–the individual. The pursuit is just that–a pursuit, a wild goose chase. As for the roots, the “goodness” is extant only in the Kantian sense of intention, sense of duty–an entirely naive contention. The best intentions are no stranger to tragedy (for instance, the Army Corps of Engineers and the Mississippi). Disaster is not averted by good will alone.
I disagree that this egoistical selfvaluing is not a virtue. It starts with egoism. No creature is based on anything else. I would say that only when advances are made within the egoic sphere, can the self be interpreted more widely. But this is debatable, I realize. I am no authority on the virtues and merits of ego-forsaking.

Quote :
You say: “The fact that its legislative structures have been corroded, that the logic has been lost, has not prevented strong ethical will to arise there more frequently and powerfully than it does in Europe, which ethical roots are far more organic, context-bound, pragmatic, on the whole far less philosophical.” Which “ethical will” do you speak of? What is this frequency? Have you forgotten Norway? More importantly, is “philosophy” inherently beneficial? The manner in which the United States employs philosophy today is an absolute joke. Our Supreme Court has ruled that pizza is a vegetable.
What should I remember about Norway? It is clean and has few people. It used to be extremely poor, recently it has found some oil and is now rather prosperous, but enormously boring and culturally insignificant.
The US is still, despite, or perhaps also because of, evertyhing, the most politically dynamic and culturally productive country in the world, even if the standards are seemingly very low, you dont even want to know what standards we have in Holland. The social counter-engineering, the art of creating aggression, stupidity and self-pity are mastered here, and there is nothing to compensate for it. Dutch society is effectively destroyed. Whenever I fly back from the US to Holland I feel like I am setting foot in a filthy cage.

Yet when I came back from Damascus to Amsterdam, I felt like I was entering a sanctuary of purity. I think that well thinking Americans, dismayed by what goes on around them, tend to overestimate the virtues of the rest of the world.


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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeTue Dec 06, 2011 8:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
From my perspective at least, it is the modern American who is fooled into believing that, because of the severe degeneration and increasing stupidity, the entire value system is lost.

All my travels through the USA have been very interesting and fruitful, and the people I come to know there are very much worth knowing, I have learned much there. It seems to me that there is still a boldness to American thinking that can not be found in Europe.

Of course I am very selective in who I speak to long enough to draw such conclusions. The bulk of humanity, wherever you go, is stupid.

I have no doubt the value system is not yet lost. Rather, it has been compromised, contaminated and/or corrupted; it is abused. Replacing the filibuster with intransigence in political office; dividing the populous with party warfare and bewitching them with egregious propaganda[1]; the vitiation of the Free Press by capital[4]; the apotheosis of convenience[5]; the implementation of peer pressure to market by simulated demographics[8]; etc.

Boldness, indeed—but such a ‘virtue’ has accompanied every military dictator in recorded history. Hitler was bold[9].

Fixed Cross wrote:
Could you elaborate on this? What is the danger, what is the perpetuating apparatus? What is systematically being dissemminated?

I elaborated extensively in “II: Cinctures and Methods of Control” and “III: Recursion and Transposition”. If you want vague, umbrella-term answers, the danger is trapping the progress of man in a möbius strip that (due to youth becoming little more than glorified parrots) is inexpugnable from within, the perpetuating apparatus is the transposition of mass production onto all strata and the perpetuating apparatus is what is being disseminated by advertising/marketing—however, I would rather you just read the two sections mentioned for a more substantial explanation.

Fixed Cross wrote:
Although I know that marijuana possession is used as an excuse for the government to ruin people, I have not noticed any effective restrictions on marijuana in the US. it seems to be readily available in good quality, and much more people smoke it there than in Amsterdam, relatively speaking as well. In California the quality is arguably better and, in case of a medicinal permit which is, so I found out, very hard not to get, more legal than in Amsterdam where it is still illegally produced and sold to the coffeeshops. But that aside, I would not say of such things that they are a real standard for freedom or lack of boundaries.

May I ask where in the U.S. you have been? New York, for instance, averages 50,000 arrests for misdemeanor possession of marijuana annually[10]. The FBI’s Uniform Crime Report for 2010 (obviously, the 2011 edition has not yet been released) lists over 750,000 arrests for possession of marijuana, but I would rather not get hung up on this point.

Fixed Cross wrote:
In Norway I’ve never been, its hardly populated and nothing really interesting has come from there since the Vikings, as far as I know. They have very little challenges, politically speaking, compared to the US. That should be a consideration – how does the worlds leading political power maintain order interiorily? Clearly, they are not doing a very good job now, but I doubt that the Norwegian government would manage better if they had a simiar weigth to carry and wealth to manage. It is said that power corrupts -but the US is still a far better place to live than any African or most any Asian country, and I would prefer it to most European nations as well.

I’ll leave off discussion of Norway until the second to last paragraph (where it is brought up again).

Are we actually to assume that the United States is not responsible for its issues; that its “weight” and “wealth” are inherently good and that the issues of managing the control over such a vast populous—its failures in this sense—are therefore forgivable? Well, from the standpoint of rape, in 2009 the U.S. was ranked 5th in per capita rapes—Zimbabwe was 7th—and 1st by 75,907 rapes[11]. Is this a necessary evil? What of being ranked 46th globally in terms of infant mortality rate[12]? 98th in unemployment rate? How about that obesity rate[6]? Indeed, the U.S. carries a great weight.

Fixed Cross wrote:
What should I remember about Norway? It is clean and has few people. It used to be extremely poor, recently it has found some oil and is now rather prosperous, but enormously boring and culturally insignificant.

As a point of comparison, Norway has an unemployment rate of 3.4 to the U.S.’s 8.6, an infant mortality rate of 3.58 to the U.S.’s 6.26, a rape rate of 19.8 to the U.S.’s 28.6 and no death penalty. How about education? Norway was 9th in reading to the U.S.’s 14th, 15th in math to the U.S.’s 25th and the U.S. pulls an uncharacteristic upset ranking 17th in science to Norway’s 19th. What about these Netherlands? 7th in reading, 6th in math and 8th in science[13]. But perhaps these countries are boring and culturally insignificant. Zimbabwe is far from boring and extremely culturally significant. Let’s all move there.

Fixed Cross wrote:
The US is still, despite, or perhaps also because of, evertyhing, the most politically dynamic and culturally productive country in the world, even if the standards are seemingly very low, you dont even want to know what standards we have in Holland. The social counter-engineering, the art of creating aggression, stupidity and self-pity are mastered here, and there is nothing to compensate for it. Dutch society is effectively destroyed. Whenever I fly back from the US to Holland I feel like I am setting foot in a filthy cage.

If you feel the U.S. is anything but proficient in what you call social counter-engineering, and that we compensate for it (especially in aggression, stupidity and self-pity), you are disastrously mistaken. Visiting is not enough. Live here for a few years. This reply is already far too long, so I’ll end it here.

End Notes:

[1] The current state of political affairs is abysmal at best. The President serves as little more than a figurehead, a scapegoat upon whose shoulders we can lay all the blame. We failed to alleviate the financial crisis that’s been snowballing since Clinton left office? Blame Bush[2] and Obama[3]. The democrats, vacuous mouths and furled brows, menacingly thrust their index fingers at the republicans who in turn mirror this gesture, the Tea Party is in constant existential quandary, and all the while the independents are reduced to cynical irony. This is all perpetuated by drowning the Amerikan people in horribly biased propaganda, which would be fine if the audiences of Fox News and its democratic equivalent exhibited a propensity for checking sources.

[2] Bush may be blamed for the war in Iraq but it is the Amerikan people who made the ultimate decision to go to war.

[3] While Obama is, in my opinion, not at fault for the national debt, he was not ready for presidency.

[4] The press is, first and foremost, a business requiring a good deal of capital to operate. To satisfy this need, the story must not only be provocative enough to sell, but consistently produced in such a way as to ensure a steady profit. Thus the paparazzi is ex-cinctured as the mainstream jackals and vultures swarm, quenching the bloodlust of the Amerikan people for scandal; nothing satisfies the public quite like the felling of a titan through scandal.

[5] Fast food is by no means peculiar to Amerika, but no where else is it such a fundamental staple of the national diet. McDonald’s, Burger King, Wendy’s, Hardees, Checkers, White Castle, Dairy Queen/Stuckey’s, Taco Bell, Arby’s, KFC, Popeye’s, Chick-fil-a…the list goes on. More than half of the U.S. population consumes fast food on a weekly basis—around 27% eat it daily. The health concerns are obviously appalling[6], but the semiotics… terrifying. To make some attempt at brevity, I will refer you further to an interview with David Foster Wallace[7] which outlines transpositions of this schematic elsewhere…the psycho-social implications.

[6] Once again topping the charts, the U.S. weighs in with 74.6% of the population being overweight or obese, an importunate statistic when observing that just 19.7% were overweight or obese in 1997.

[7] The interview can be accessed here: samizdat.cc/shelf/documents/2005 … erview.pdf

[8] The most despicable development in marketing to date is this trendy psychological warfare capitalizing on the hegemony of peer pressure: ‘We have stereotyped your demographic which we will now synthesize into an injection mould mimesis, so convincingly enjoying our product that you will, more often than not, purchase it not because you actually want it (indeed, prior to this ad, you were ignorant of such desire) but because we dictate how you should be you.’

[9] Hitler was, as it so happens, greatly influenced by America…and Britain’s colonization policies.

[10] huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/0 … 78023.html

[11] 1st being the most rapes (as opposed to the next note’s numbering): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

[12] 1st being the least deaths per 1,000 live births: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co … ality_rate

[13] guardian.co.uk/news/datablog … ce-reading
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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeTue Dec 06, 2011 2:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I respect your study, but I ask to what you would have it point. The aim of 20th century America has been to keep the Eurasian continent from taking control of the world. All was allowed to that end. After Vietnam, people have become more critical. If people become more critical without having a global political overview, perspectives are skewed.

In olden times, people would simply die for their country. After Vietnam something very significant has happened - the notion of the state in general as superego became untenable to a certain refined taste. The nation-state-world was in grave danger, and the people kept getting better informed, journalism and resulting, pop music threatened to kill the states authority as-such entirely. A grand sweep was needed the Grand Chessboard could not be left unattended, despite the peoples growing selfishness, their growing ability to think of themselves as laws unto themselves.

Either America-Israel relinquishes its international military domination, or - not. If so, it is hard to estimate how China, Russia, Germany, etc would rise to the occasion - that would be the question to ask. If not, the people will have to find a way to stand behind the military industrial complex, understand it as a fundamentally productive and protective institution, a condition of civilization, which is actually how it functions. All means by which the people have gotten better informed are resultant of the technology war between corporate nations. That is not to say that there is not a great deal kept away from the people - the individual can never again believe the state, and the states moral and medical predications, but he must work within it, because the state increasingly represents the world at large, its utterly inhuman resistance of power, “the Real” in its total anonymous force contained. The world is not ready to become a peaceful haven without coercion and manipulation. It may never become that.

The evil of this is implicit not in the mechanism of power itself, but arises in the interpretation by a different-valuing group, is created by the separating of morality from reality. Economical and political reality, corporate industry, has been renounced since its effects became popularly visible. But there is no other option. There are only many ways to make it worse, and quite likely a few ways to improve it, make it better suited to our “human” standards. But we forget too easily that these are western standards - that rights before the state is a western concept. The west is still the only post industrial master-morality, but it has been largely lost after 9-11, when America, the great warrior nation, became a self-pitying freak. Thereby are the excesses allowed, not by “the state”. Such an institution is always a direct reflection of the peoples will. The will of Americans has been weakened. Thereby the parasitic nature of corporatism has gained ground. But what was the cause of the weakening of the will? It was the peoples ability to see behind the facade of politics coupled to their inability to affirm what they saw, and the paralysis that followed disabled them from even trying to affirm it — so far.

If philosophy is not aimed at clarifying the will to power as an ethics, it is going nowhere. Corporate; entity-like. Industrial: productive. Complex: system.
The good people of the world are very far removed from a logic powerful enough to ‘contain’ the future, which is to disclose it. To this end we have devised value-ontology, and to the end of disseminating value ontology this forum is created. A small step, but we aim to match corporations in their power, to function as a metaphysical “virus”, to “infect” people with this new, philosophically pure master-morality. Our quest is a discovery of the diversity of human minds, the endless ways in which the logic following from making all logic subject to what it serves to organize, creates stability in human thought as it reveals it as self-valuing and valuing the world in the thereby disclosed term-system.

America could no longer be valued in terms of Americans. What was the American? A person who needed the state to tell him to value himself. When he had learned this, he ceased to believe the state, and rejected it. Consequently he was unable to value himself, as he had built himself in the terms predicated by the state.
The solution to this lack of power is to affirm the state as a corporation, but at the same time not believing one word its mouthpieces utter. The solution is to take control of politics by affirming that this is a spectacle, a game of lies and deceit - an artform. “Exposing the facts” is not politics - creating new psychological conditions is required.

Note: American influence on Hitler was mostly the strategies devised by Edward Bernays, Freuds cousin – like his uncle and Hitler, an Austrian. The inventor of Hollywood-stage setting is of course Wagner. American soft-power is for a great part a Germanic product, which in turn is the inheritor of Hellenic Idealism. This great western ambition to create the world now has affected the entire world, but its main engines are still in America, even if Germany gradually becoming willing to live up to its self-imposed responsibilities again. The power to manipulate, as terrible as it is, is still nowhere near as horrifying as a world in the absence of this power.


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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeWed Dec 14, 2011 7:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I feel for the most part, we have been writing past each other. This was meant as a semiotic observation on the present U.S. socio-political structure. However, you did write something that worries me:

‘A small step, but we aim to match corporations in their power, to function as a metaphysical “virus”, to “infect” people with this new, philosophically pure master-morality.’

I am afraid you have merely embarked on the propagation of yet another arbor-hierarchy. You speak of expropriation of corporate domination by force; to “match the corporations in their power”. Perhaps I should ask you to what you would have your concept point: I look for a balance–equilibrium rather than metastability–and to this end, one must dissipate the extant force rather than attempt to meet it with an equal force. Which brings me to your question of “to what would [I] have it point?” I would have my concepts point to the structural integrity of microcosmic societies cooperating as multiplicities; rhizomatic proliferation as opposed to arbor-hierarchical/mass production dissemination.

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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeFri Dec 16, 2011 11:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory wrote:
I feel for the most part, we have been writing past each other. This was meant as a semiotic observation on the present U.S. socio-political structure.
I can understand that my comments seemed somewhat irrelevant to your proposed context. But it was the context that I meant to challenge.

Quote :
However, you did write something that worries me:

‘A small step, but we aim to match corporations in their power, to function as a metaphysical “virus”, to “infect” people with this new, philosophically pure master-morality.’

I am afraid you have merely embarked on the propagation of yet another arbor-hierarchy. You speak of expropriation of corporate domination by force;
I have done no such thing, that would indeed be futile. Corporations don’t generally exert direct force, they act insidiously, infiltrate our cognitive circuitry and re-set our needs and create new desires in us. The violence acted out physically in wars and dictatorships is overshadowed by the structural violence, the domination of mans thinking. This is the power I seek to match and overcome. Philosophy, if it is to be politically effecting, must be more subtle, but still play the game of manipulation. The thinker must guide his fellow men toward the good, not ask them to abandon the bad. In life as in philosophy, one can not negate a negative by designating it as bad. We must set a positive for it to eliminate itself against. This is the context I am speaking of.

Quote :
I look for a balance–equilibrium rather than metastability–and to this end, one must dissipate the extant force rather than attempt to meet it with an equal force.
Power is not the same as force. I do not seek to meet force with force and start a war. Power is mostly intellectual. Every war is an intellectual game, both in terms of strategy as of ideology, motive.

Quote :
Which brings me to your question of “to what would [I] have it point?” I would have my concepts point to the structural integrity of microcosmic societies cooperating as multiplicities; rhizomatic proliferation as opposed to arbor-hierarchical/mass production dissemination.
We agree on a general political aim. I have long pondered how to create a movement from the root up containing in its intention already the self-organizing quality of spontaneously emerging self-cultivating socio-economical units. In other words, I have been looking for the DNA of a rhizomatically self-conditioning society. Now that I think that I have found this, at least a rudimentary code, I test all that comes along to this logic.

What I find is that corporations employ a kind of living-dead version of value ontology. They act on the reversed principle: to have people condition themselves in terms of services provided by other entities. to break the power of such entities, people must be taught, somehow - this is the hard part - to value services in terms of themselves. If the thought takes hold firmly enough as an intention, the “market” - the top-down stream of products to create demand - will be broken by a more natural, need-based system of self-sustaining by the means provided by the (physical, societal, moral) landscape.


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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeFri Dec 16, 2011 12:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

  • Looks at bottle of Vicodin in left hand * My brand comes in pink pills, cute.

Hey! Take it easy on us drug addicts now. Puts out cigarette.

The best part of a cigarette is actually the moment you put it out, because that means you get to light another one.

America is the most vivid form of the disease we call modern humanity. It is the technological and economic realization of nihilism, something Nietzsche would have never even imagined was possible. The “casino” you describe is the precursor to what we have now, a giant mall, which is basically what the good old USA has become. Paris used to have (maybe still does) these things called Arcades, the equivalent of an American mall. Walter Benjamin planned to write a magnum opus about the concept, and in fact he tried to. The surviving fragments of it are called the Arcades Project, you might be interested in reading it, original poster.

Nihilism technologically realized, it is amazing. Instead of actually satisfying your desires, this mammoth Arcade simply inspires you with desire after desire, turning you into a ceaseless wellspring of new and more perverse desires, to the point that you can’t even reflect on your own dissatisfaction, emptiness, and longing. Makes me quite ill to think about it, actually. That’s why I spent more than five years without ever leaving my house.

Anyway, this disease must be corrected. All we need is a proper course of treatment: re-awaken the populace to its dissatisfaction.
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PostSubject: Re: Amerika Amerika Icon_minitimeFri Dec 16, 2011 12:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Also, the opiate and heroin user does not escape to fantasy. He takes opium to give him the false courage to embrace his own misery. Thus it often leads to a peculiar pathology, where the principle of the real is inverted and becomes a source of pleasure. The heroin user likes the dirt, likes being in the filth and the dirt, wants to be the filth and the dirt, wants to be the real.

His own pain and degenerating body, his own wretchedness, becomes a source of pleasure. Delectatio morosa is the sweetest bit of honey one can squeeze from the poppy bud. Opium is thanatos become pregnant, creative.

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PostSubject: Monopoly money Monopoly money Icon_minitimeThu Dec 29, 2011 11:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Monopoly money

What is Monopoly money and what is not I.e. what has real worth even relatively so, and what is produced from that.

…and is the current capitalist model simply not adaptable enough.

Example; the banker provides a mortgage for a house, the buyer pays that back + interest, the product has been paid for and more beyond that. the banker provides a mortgage for a house the buyer pays that back + interest, the product had already been paid for + interest and now more interest.
Rinse and repeat

Once a product has been paid for why cant it be passed on for free, or why isn’t the money available socially?

I recently looked into starting a business in my village with an investor, the sheer cost of rental made it impossible. The cost of making businesses and that everyone are always trying to extract the maximum amount of money for their skills or products, means that less businesses and premises are handed down.

So should the banks provide? Or the govt utilise banks to that end [nationalise them].

I find it is increasingly the case that we are getting less and less stuff, we used to have a café, shop, fish n chip shop and post office in the village, now we just have a shop.

Should monopoly money be socialised? Why not just provide! More stuff = more jobs and further production of wealth.

Where does the city get its money? Does it not deal with mostly monopoly money? How does it belong to them and why shouldn’t it be socialised.

The banks went bust we bailed them out, yet we don’t own them?

Bla bla you get the picture; instead of selfishness upon no basis, why shouldn’t profit be socialised?
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PostSubject: Re: Monopoly money Monopoly money Icon_minitimeThu Dec 29, 2011 11:11 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
quetz wrote:
why shouldn’t profit be socialised?
For the exact same reason slavery shouldn’t be praised.
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PostSubject: Re: Monopoly money Monopoly money Icon_minitimeMon Jan 02, 2012 9:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
For the exact same reason slavery shouldn’t be praised.

Which are the slaves, the moneylenders or those who ‘earn’ a living?

don’t get me wrong I think every facet of the equation should gain, my philosophical point concerns ownership. If we considered wealth ultimately to be shared, then what is gained from another endeavours would be socialised.

Another point is that I’d prefer to live in a world where there are no powerful people, states or other institutions. If we socialise money the above cannot occur.
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PostSubject: Re: Monopoly money Monopoly money Icon_minitimeTue Jan 03, 2012 11:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
quetz wrote:
Quote :
For the exact same reason slavery shouldn’t be praised.

Which are the slaves, the moneylenders or those who ‘earn’ a living?

don’t get me wrong I think every facet of the equation should gain, my philosophical point concerns ownership. If we considered wealth ultimately to be shared, then what is gained from another endeavours would be socialised.

Another point is that I’d prefer to live in a world where there are no powerful people, states or other institutions. If we socialise money the above cannot occur.

We must be able to see deeply into two differing and seemingly opposed perspectives here: on the one hand, that those who “earn a living” in some well-off manner do so not merely by their own virtues or “the sweat of their labor” but rather are products of various external and internal conditionings, large and small, psychological and social, familial and economic. That no one, not a single person has ever been successful of his own right and merit, but relies to a very large extent on the environmental conditions which more or less allow for and guarantee the fruits he enjoys from his work. And on the other hand, that to appropriate/socialize profit and profitability is to a certain extent to disincentivize productivity itself, since a large part of the inspiration for productive work lies in the personal gains to be had from this.

These two perspectives do not entirely disallow their opposites, of course - for instance, it is also the case that the individual him or herself can certainly “take some credit” for his or her successes, just as it is the case that socializing profit does not entirely do away with various motivations and incentives to produce and work. So a properly subtle understanding situates each of these perspectives within a certain domain or continuum-like position.

Next, we can effect a certain attempt at synthesis here, but this requires that we firstly and more strongly affirm the value/s upon which this synthesis is based. What is it that we wish to gain, to inspire or further through attempting to reconceive the economic and social bases of life? How far does our vision gather, and toward what end/s? In combination with this vision, we would place the above-stated more comprehensive and honest understanding of the various perspectives on economic/productive/social relations and conditions. From such a possibility might perhaps come a more potent insight into how best to conceive anew these various factors and conditions of life.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy

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PostSubject: Post Idea World Post Idea World Icon_minitimeMon Nov 28, 2011 4:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

For millennia, human civilization has been flush with a succession of paradigm shifting, big ideas. Modernity’s Hegelian world spirit, Nietzschean death of God and Heideggerian Being gave way in postmodernity to Foucault’s dispositif, Fukuyama’s end of history, Derrida’s deconstruction and Deleuze and Guattari’s rhizome. And yet, while we all assumed that big ideas would keep flowing hard and fast forever, in the last few years it seems that the wells of inspiration are running dry. There is a dawning realization that truly novel, creative ideas have suddenly stopped coming. Nobody knows why.

The conceptual drought couldn’t be happening at a more inopportune moment. Seven billion of us are struggling through the most severe ecological, financial, political and spiritual crisis in our history. This time the catastrophe we face doesn’t affect a single nation or region or continent . . . it is all the more terrifying because it is global and simultaneous. Odds are that if we can’t pull ourselves out from this decline then we just might descend into a horrifying thousand year long dark age . . . an age of scorched earth authoritarian-capitalism, brutalism and mayhem which will make the genocides and holocausts of the previous century feel like foreplay. We’ve not only run out of ideas; we’re running out of time.

Now more than ever we need the creative breakthroughs and outlier brainstrorms that can shift the terrain of thought, revealing exits, opening possibilities, potentially saving us all. We need mavericks of indie media who can kill the commercial virus that infects our information flows. We need a brilliant new crop of economic students who can stand up to their professors, topple the neoclassical paradigm and replace it with a new, true cost model. We need potent new ways of dismantling corporate rule and killing corporate personhood. And then there is the biggest challenge of them all: how to spark a social revolution, an insurrection of everyday life that sweeps across the globe just in time to avert the final catastrophe?

It may be that our abandonment of the natural world and wholesale migration into cyberspace has cut our roots and scrambled our neurons beyond repair. We may be in the midst of an irreversible mental breakdown of the human race that parallels the irreversible collapse of our planet’s ecosystems. This eco-psycho spiral may do us in. Maybe it is already too late? . . .

(Taken from recent edition of Adbusters magazine)

I think we have begun to answer this question posed here, the question of the post idea world and the end of truly novel thinking. The/an answer is contained within what we have created and deemed value-ontology. Imagine the effect if value-ontology, more fully and concisely developed, where to permeate large numbers of fertile young minds. Novelty, creativity, new utility for the present and for a/the future would begin to surface again.

Proposition to consider further: value-ontology as a cure for the postmodern condition?

Many directions we could explore here.

One other salient such direction is to examine how value-ontology provides us a frame in which to understand this problem more precisely: as the loss/dispersal of valuing, its continuingly increasing disconnection from deeper and more authentic (human) valuing mechanisms. The continual co-opting of these mechanisms by the endless gimmicks, distractions and drugs of modern society. An easy example is the co-opting of pleasure, of the system whereby pleasure is naturally produced in the mind-body (through effort, action, thinking). It is well known that excessive heroin use, for instance, produces depression of the brain’s pleasure system, leading to over-use and a loss of natural ability to generate pleasure without the drug. It would seem that modern society is becoming a non-localized sort of heroine drug, small quantities of it to be sure, yet everywhere and all-pervasive. TV, music, news, food, sugary beverages, alcohol and tobacco, sex/porn, and of course the addiction of consumption-consumerism, money. Everything produces a little bit of excess pleasure, pleasure not earned, not valued and not produced by the conscious activity of valuing.

We value things like community, environment, literature, subtle and sensitive emotional connections with others, insight and discovery, hard work, yet these are becoming only able to be CONSCIOUSLY valued from within already existing societal paradigms that operate from a basis of market “value”, money, the production and exchange of “capital”. Ideas become subservient to a sort of systematic-administrative-economic utility which says ideas are useless if they cannot produce something of merit within the national-business-academic sphere/s. Anything “for its own sake” is sacrificed to the alter of “progress” and “efficiency”.

What is this “for its own sake”? It is an attempt through conceptual language terms to capture more authentic self-valuing and its function as the root of all external valuings. Certainly “authentic values and valuings” are never “for its own sake” only (being as they are intimately connected and interwoven with far more nuanced and un/conscious-diverse systems/mechanisms within the body-brain & with/in one’s environment/s), yet it is still true that this notion, as a term within language-logic, succeeds at capturing something fundamental going on at the heart of valuation: self-valuing, valuing otherness with respect to and in terms of oneself. Valuing on one’s own terms. This requires a sufficiency of cross-tiered connections between levels of self-understanding and self-being, and it seems precisely this sort of multi-dimensionalism in self-experiencing which has become almost entirely non-existent in the majority of people, replaced by a one-dimensionalism through the endless invasive flood of socio-cultural pre-figured image-constructs and the constant drugging of unearned pleasure, mass confusion and dispersion-frustration of willed thought-intent. Where these all work too well and come to produce intense apathy/depression/resignation the possibility of self-awareness (which might otherwise rise up at this moment) is still kept at bay by the invasive appearance of still more socially-produced image-constructs, ones of a more subtle, cynical, narcissistic and self-destructive type, meant to simulate the effects of catharsis and conscious self-valuing.

Further possibility for discussion-development: I propose that value-ontology can function as a cure for all of this. Various ideological constructs/systems have arisen throughout history as cures for then current mass psychological-social problems. It seems that a new ideological system ought be encouraged and given birth, a system whose basis lies in what we have deemed value-ontology. Just as Hellenism, then Christianity, then baroque/romanticism, then science/empiricism, then postmodernity (in many ways a breaking-down of the old systems rather than the birth of a new one): now value-ontology-ism, a new ideological construct-system to be inserted within the now modern/postmodern world. What effects could this introduction have, and how/why?


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
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PostSubject: Re: Post Idea World Post Idea World Icon_minitimeThu Jan 12, 2012 11:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The category and concept of “A Value-Ontology” is perfectly valid, more than perfectly befitting and appropriate. But so far, all I am seeing is, “there should be a value ontology”. Well okay, certainly. That is about like saying, “Good Government is the answer.”

So what is the specific “Value-ontology” you have in mind?
Exactly what “should have” more value and less value?
Upon precisely what have you based it?
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PostSubject: Re: Post Idea World Post Idea World Icon_minitimeThu Jan 12, 2012 11:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think that value ontology itself, as a theory of what is, of what it is that is, regardless of its further conditions, is complete. But this does not yet form any kind of modus operandi for us, humans, at least not beyond what we are already, instinctively and axiomatically, doing in each of your acts. In other words, it does not prescribe our actions beyond what already takes place. It does however give us the confidence that, understanding why and as what we do what we do, we may learn to do this with more direction. You have already drawn the conclusion that it is not only possible, but even necessary to do this, and moreover, that a law should be established prescribing all of human activity. I am only coming to terms with the realization that man is indeed understandable to himself. As I have told some of my friends here already, I see a trajectory before us of roughly a decade, in which value ontology must be developed into a working model for politics and perhaps for ‘self-help’, a means to ‘know thyself’, a guide to successful action leading to desirable and lasting results. But I see such a project as developing across different phases.

We now have the general formula of how we may understand being in conceptual language. It appears to me to be very comprehensive not only in specifying what exists, but also how/why it is possible that it exists. This alone gives me a lot of peace of mind, as I have searched for this my whole actively cognitive life, so an objective is already attained.

A slightly less general, more specific description of what occurs because of this formula, was already devised by Nietzsche, as the will to power. This was up until now not a workable doctrine, because its ground was missing. It describes accurately what happens between subjects or forces, but it does not prescribe itself upon the void, that is to say, it needs something to operate, and this something has been left to explain itself, to the unfortunate Nietzschean, to be explained by the will to power, which as you have noted reduces the subject to chaos, noise. Paradoxically, the will to power explains, but does not help us to understand what we should do in order to effectively will to power. Value ontology explains what we need to do to strengthen our power/willing, or at least, it gives us the ground on which to stand in such attempts. But I have not progressed significantly beyond this point yet. The only truly significant step I have set is described in my post on consistency as prime mover.

Basically what I am saying is: have patience! You have a rather apocalyptic way of seeing homo sapiens and his fate. I do not see things quite so dreadfully, although I am fully aware of the totalitarian grip of entropic dissolution on our society, I also see, always, by the very nature of nature herself, movements in the opposite direction, such as our own. We must guard of course, to not slip, to not become self-satisfied – but we must also not overreach, try to say something without having fully understood.

Some of the next practical steps I intend to take along these lines:

-interpreting/formulating the will to power as fundamentally ethical by explaining value ontology as its ground
-drawing the consequences of such ethics in an intersubjective world
-constructing a law-system based on these consequences
-explaining the western constitutions and the American one in particular as such a construction, imperfect but having been for good time sufficient
-attempting to explicate how the ‘socialist virtues’ of attempting to value otherness-as-itself can be made to fit in with a basic doctrine of valuing otherness in terms of oneself, which at first glance is contradictory
-explaining the role of the state as a minimally sufficient mediator between different self-valuings; ‘law and order’ explained in philosophically / ethically necessary terms


What is left unaddressed here is the directly individual, the truly subjective explorations of experience. This is the sort of material Parodites has specialized himself in. I am very interested in this field but I am not as talented as he is in forging it into a philosophy – my fields of poetic-emotive-conceptualization lie elsewhere than in philosophy. My task may indeed be to formulate such laws as you are pressing for, but to use a metaphor to make my point; value ontology is a multi-stage rocket, in order for it to cross the void it must burn all of its potential to finally arrive as its most necessary and useful form. Right now I am in the process of shedding the first fuel can and shifting to the second, which means a general specification from ontology (what is given the non-impossibility of being) to necessity (what must be given what is). From this, an operational ethics may be approached, as which a ‘metods of successful conduct’ may be formulated.

Before the self has been explicated, that is to say, before the act of self-valuing is brought to light in concrete terms, I can not formulate is a “what is of value” - value-ontology defines value as indirectly established, and explicated only by the clarification of the subject to himself as an activity of constantly enabling valuation. Yes, the (pursuit of the science/methods of) enabling of valuation is the first ethical activity I can prescribe to mans philosophical self-rulership , if philosophy is to take the shape of value ontology, as it once took on Plato’s ideational paradigm.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

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    James S Saint
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PostSubject: Re: Post Idea World Post Idea World Icon_minitimeFri Jan 13, 2012 1:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
I think that value ontology itself, as a theory of what is, of what it is that is, regardless of its further conditions, is complete.
I think that statement alone makes you a “Rationalist” (welcome to My world affraid )

Fixed Cross wrote:
But this does not yet form any kind of modus operandi for us, humans, at least not beyond what we are already, instinctively and axiomatically, doing in each of your acts. In other words, it does not prescribe our actions beyond what already takes place. It does however give us the confidence that, understanding why and as what we do what we do, we may learn to do this with more direction.
Exactly.

Fixed Cross wrote:
You have already drawn the conclusion that it is not only possible, but even necessary to do this, and moreover, that a law should be established prescribing all of human activity. I am only coming to terms with the realization that man is indeed understandable to himself. As I have told some of my friends here already, I see a trajectory before us of roughly a decade, in which value ontology must be developed into a working model for politics and perhaps for ‘self-help’, a means to ‘know thyself’, a guide to successful action leading to desirable and lasting results. But I see such a project as developing across different phases.
I don’t really think that you have 10 years. I’m pretty certain that I don’t.
But the basics of your aim seems to be proper.

Fixed Cross wrote:
We now have the general formula of how we may understand being in conceptual language. It appears to me to be very comprehensive not only in specifying what exists, but also how/why it is possible that it exists. This alone gives me a lot of peace of mind, as I have searched for this my whole actively cognitive life, so an objective is already attained.
We do? I’m not sure to what you are referring. Suspect

Fixed Cross wrote:
The only truly significant step I have set is described in my post on consistency as prime mover.
Hmm… seemed a lot of words to say, “Value and Ontology needs to be based upon the incentive to maintain ones existence.”
“Self-Harmony”.

Fixed Cross wrote:
You have a rather apocalyptic way of seeing homo sapiens and his fate. I do not see things quite so dreadfully, although I am fully aware of the totalitarian grip of entropic dissolution on our society, I also see, always, by the very nature of nature herself, movements in the opposite direction, such as our own. We must guard of course, to not slip, to not become self-satisfied – but we must also not overreach, try to say something without having fully understood.
They came up with a phrase for it in the U.S., “Clear and present danger.”

Fixed Cross wrote:
Some of the next practical steps I intend to take along these lines:

-interpreting/formulating the will to power as fundamentally ethical by explaining value ontology as its ground
-drawing the consequences of such ethics in an intersubjective world
-constructing a law-system based on these consequences
-explaining the western constitutions and the American one in particular as such a construction, imperfect but having been for good time sufficient
-attempting to explicate how the ‘socialist virtues’ of attempting to value otherness-as-itself can be made to fit in with a basic doctrine of valuing otherness in terms of oneself, which at first glance is contradictory
-explaining the role of the state as a minimally sufficient mediator between different self-valuings; ‘law and order’ explained in philosophically / ethically necessary terms
Sounds a bit like what you get when you ask Congress for the key to the men’s room.

Fixed Cross wrote:
What is left unaddressed here is the directly individual, the truly subjective explorations of experience. This is the sort of material Parodites has specialized himself in.
Not sure to what you are referring. Suspect

Fixed Cross wrote:
Before the self has been explicated, that is to say, before the act of self-valuing is brought to light in concrete terms, I can not formulate is a “what is of value” - value-ontology defines value as indirectly established, and explicated only by the clarification of the subject to himself as an activity of constantly enabling valuation. Yes, the (pursuit of the science/methods of) enabling of valuation is the first ethical activity I can prescribe to mans philosophical self-rulership , if philosophy is to take the shape of value ontology, as it once took on Plato’s ideational paradigm.
So you need a definition of “Life”?

Fuck it - there will eventually be open borders everywhere in the desirable world - but not before a great autonomy has been granted to localities for setting rules, laws and customs in their own realm. Criminals, violators of those laws, can be expelled from the community rather than punished, and taken into a central socialistic welfare state, which is basically the modern mediocre urban environment we now have.

This is a combination of Masonic government and “Patchwork” localism, making use of Socialism in accordance with its pitfalls, namely, as making a relatively merciful pit, like a compost heap, around which all kinds of human cultures can spring unhindered by any centralistic inhibitions.

"Actor Jon Voight expressed his support for President Trump, declaring him “the greatest president since Abraham Lincoln” "
foxnews.com/entertainment/j … eo-message

He got that precisely right.

Yes, not letting Congress and the American public see the results of the Mueller report; not letting anyone from his administration past or present speak freely about their experiences; not letting anyone see his finacial history; not letting anyone know about his private conversations with Putin or dealings with Russian oligarchs; and of course, a president whom by now it is glaringly evident that ‘checks and balances’ mean something different for him than what the Constitution states, and on and on with lies and obstructions.

Last but not least a president whom his own personal lawyer of 12 years warned that if he lost the 2020 election that Trump would not accept the results. And no doubt to say that the election was rigged and inflate the number of his voters as he inflated the numbers attending his inauguration and his rallies. Of course, if he wins, then everything is fine and he’ll say the other side is not accepting the results.

Yes, these are all very Lincolnesque and no doubt Trump dreams of a future marble monument built to him in DC. Yeah, keep on dreamin’. There’s about as much chance of that as tiny Confederate flags being sold at the Lincoln Memorial gift shop.

Lincolnesque to the letter, if seen in context; though Lincoln was far more radical in measures and costs, Trumps pragmatic use of his powers to sustain his agenda (his promised one, no less) is indeed worthy of the company of Lincoln and not any others that I know of save those mythical first ones, conquering pirate spirits who shared their bounty with the whole of the human race.

Its not that politics is no longer dirty now that Trump is in office. It is that …to be honest, Europe is no longer a shameful place to live in. It is no longer subservient to a false morality. Trump has taken on the face of the America as it has behaved in the world and shown it to its own people. For us this is great. For Reaganites this is even greater. For the sanctimonious and for globalists, this is a disaster.

Last few minutes I’ve been considering disbanding this Philosophers Clan, nominally in my mind. Things that carry little to no consequence “irl” can easily still dominate the taste or colour of ones general mood, even in a background capacity. I was wondering if the existence of this clan in my mind was impeding me. Because not a lot of its promise that I playfully imagined has been … but… is this even true?

Since the foundation of this clan my life has become tremendously unpredictable and frankly, weird as fuck.
My posting in as far as it was transformative might have more or less ended there, except in my capacity of barbarianhorde. What began happening is a shift to the arts, to take them more seriously. This all started with the weird but sexy art project with a girl named Esther whom I met on an MDMA party, where I had been invited by a girl I met in a breakfast cafe on Jean Talon if Im not mistaken. A film project which we started on my birthday in 2016.

So there is a continuum from here

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0YpY6_zSD4[/youtube]

to here.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEi5vC74SlQ[/youtube]

From there on, things started to get even weirder. Because I took up weed-smoking one night. It may have been the night of my 39th birthday. Im pretty sure it was. People had commented on my Facebook and I was looking at the comments with Pezer, noting one ostensibly gay comment at which I took offence. In those days there were several ILP posters too who constantly were fixated on my supposed gayness. In the meantime I was absorbed by several young ladies I had met in the few weeks of sobriety there.

So as Pezer remained sober, I did not. Pretty soon I was lying on my back on the wood floor of the rooms I had rented as Pezer was stoically smoking a cigarette at the windowsill. It was then that I realized how much I was being troubled by a feeling of guilt. Guilt before my family, in fact. For not having lived up to the ecxpectations of me as a bright and innocent kid of certain genius and artistic capacity. I should have been a millionaire by now, etcetera. I then realized something else, which I can’t tell here.

What happened was the start of a process of true psychoanalysis.

This is the chart for the foundation of the Clan.

This chart shows Uranus exactly on my ascendant, opposed the Sun, on my descendant.

For an astrologer, this is clear enough. This act, this foundation of the Clan was in fact a re-establishment of my personal soul in the framework of my life. It was all very personal to my own existence, obviously. Perhaps I just “used” philosophical friends to get to the bottom of what was going on with me.

Where during the discovery off Value Ontology, Pluto was crossing my Midheaven, during this foundation it crossed my Mercury.
Recently it has been crossing over my Mars, which has led to the culmination of this entire process, in the release into consciousness of some really troubling stuff - such things are released only when one has the capacity to engage them.

But all in all, what happened recently, under Mars-Pluto, has been logically the direct result of that night of first smoke, lying on the wooden floors of the apartment in Rosemont. The psychoanalysis.

I think I should be relieved. I do feel relieved. Of what?
Of the city, of weaknesses I took for granted but that weren’t mine.

Philosophy does work, but only if it gets dirty as fuck.
If you won’t allow it to get (you) dirty, it is just nailponish for men.

Yeah well when you described that sexual encounter you had with a dude whenever it was, you took the risk of being insulted by everyone that heard you… and you should have known that numbnuts turd Ferguson would run with it.

You remember what I’m talking about, yes? Few years back when you admitted to putting from the rough? Playing backdoor bandits?

Man you shoulda never said that in the company of these animals. If I were you i’da found a forum of bonafide Greeks where getting your gay on is as natural as asking stupid metaphysical questions. You probably woulda rose through the ranks pretty quickly.

But you shouldn’t feel guilty in any case. Gayness or bisexuality is only a demerit when your an idiot in addition to it. You’re not an idiot, just a clever asshat looking for love in all the wrong places.