Capitalism has shown that it's war

Political discussions are just lovely false dichotomies and excuses for making angry finger pointing loyalty moves that do not address points made.

So many people seem to think pointing out that free will is very hard to justify is a defense against any criticism of arguments for determinism. Nope argument rest on their own merits.

It gets even sillier with politics: Here if one system is attacked, socialism or capitalism, so many people think that defending their choice is somehow miraculously done well by labeling their opponents or by attacking what both teams seem to think are the only two options or even meaningful terms.

Socialism has the floppier definition since it includes the option of merely meaning that government regulates industry. Well, by that definition the US has always been socialist and so has Europe. A corporate charter, which actually used to have some real meaning, gave privileges to corporations and could be revoked. Apart from a whole mass of other regulations and oversight over various industries.

Both definitions suffer nowadays because there are no countries anymore and further the corporations are not in countries.

We also cannot say that there is a limit on the degree of regulation, not with good old capitalist China chugging away without even the pretense of democracy and a mass of regulation (though also less regulation in many areas, ironically)

An honest discussion would look at what the problems are of each, rather than pointing fingers and saying that is worse, or these are the emotions you people have, as if that was remotely a defense of anything. Ad homs have their place but they shouldn’t be confused with rebutting criticisms of practical real world effects.

Yes, let’s all show our team loyalty. Keep the discussion very abstract as if all capitalisms are the same and have been over time and as if all socialisims are the same and have been over time.

Let’s not notice that today we have neither.

Let’s not consider that we are being handed a false dichotomy and someone is laughing as we find yet another way to hate other individuals who don’t have much power.

I think one can easily conclude from an objective perspective that capitalism is vastly superior to communism

When Germany was not one country but two it was the capitalist West that was more successful than the communist East and significantly so too
This was why when the Berlin Wall came down in I989 some West Germans did not want to be integrated with their countrymen on the other side
And when it was up the majority of defections were from East Germans trying to ecsape communism not West Germans trying to escape capitalism

Capitalism is not perfect - no man made institution is - but it is still vastly superior to communism
Just as democracy is not perfect either but it is still vastly superior to all of its many alternatives

Utopia is an impossible ideal so the next best thing is to choose the least imperfect system - whatever it may be - political or economic
And through trial and error attempt to make that system as fair as possible while recognising that it will be an eternal work in progress

Frank Zappa once said that communism would never work because people like owning things - such a simple yet profound truth in those words
The irony here is that this includes so called communists as well - a true communist would be someone who doesnt like owning anything at all
Capitalism may be a dirty word to some - not me - but we are all capitalists whether we like it or not simply because we all like owning things
Until that desire is removed from the human condition - good luck with that - then capitalism will carry on existing regardless of anything else

Well, surreptitious, first you could respond to…
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=194884&p=2728060#p2727887

But also capitalism being better than communism is not really a response to criticisms of capitalism. It might be a kind of excuse, and one that assumes we can only have one of two systems and further it acts as a way of not addressing the problems, since it seems to say, in your version, Oh, well, there are problems but less than communism. And since the problems are not addressed - here in the thread for example - it is as if we must simply accept them.

and then in my response I made to your earlier post…
this is in part based on a very weak argument based on ‘nature’

Uncle Frankie was many things, but a philosopher he was not.

But who told you people can’t own things in a communism? Rhetorical question; I know how the idea was put into your head.

Can I change that assertion to: people are not allowed to purchase, and therefore own, other people’s labor? This is essentially what a private business is. A legal means to possess labor other than your own. And that’s the only thing you wouldn’t be able to buy in a Marxism proper. You can still own all the same crap you buy in the free market.

I will correct the middle line which now seems out of place

I think that eradicating capitalism is viable only if whatever replaces it is a significant improvement or maybe any improvement at all
I dont know of a radical alternative to capitalism that has yet to be tried so am somewhat sceptical but I support the idea in principle

I think the real problem with capitalism is not the principle but the application
I think it is therefore necessary to emphasise the distinction between these two

A more equitable distribution of wealth would make it more acceptable as a viable economic system

For the pro-capitalist crowd

How do we stop, what I think has already happened, corporations from having so much power over government and media and election finance that we have an oligarchy?

How do we deal with the particular threat of the surveillance monopolies like Google and Facebook, including dealing with their plans for the internet of things, which is essentially a Panopticon which they are planning to use not just for data collection to sell, but also for behavior modification and enforcement?

By electing Trump.

Seriously, that exactly what happened. A wrench in the cabals wheels.
Of course, as I said then, he has 40-60 trillion opposed to him, so he would either be killed or compromised, and it has been a miracle of bravery and intelligence how he has done so far.
But the 40-60 trillions are really doing their work.

If we had an answer to that, we would not be living under fascism but under a benign form of capitalism.

Capitalism is simply what will always endure. It is not an ideology but the reward system of nature herself, where the combination of creative genius, exorbitant effort and determination is rewarded. It harbours all ideologies.

To the corporate monopoly question:

Make more money than them with less evil products. Daunting, I know, but doable. It would not be doable in, say, feudalism or communism, where what you could do about it is tremble in fear and thank God for your limbs.

Is this your plan? How’s it going? Me personally, I do work very hard, and right now in a creative area I get paid for. Doesn’t put me up in Google’s gnp.

Got any workable solutions.

And the internet of things is coming and they will know every single gesture you make. They will know about how you take care of yourself, where you stop to get a snack. And everyone will be hooked in from an early age.

The capitalists are right now heading us for a smily dystopia the Stasi could only have dreamt of.

Again, I recommend The Age of Surveillance Capitalism.

Trump freed Google. He allowed them to monotize. Maybe he is fucking with the other elite on some issues, but as far as Google and facebook and Amazon, he is setting them free. And they are much more powerful than most countries. Read the book I mentioned above to Pedro.
They were already able to stop government intervention in the way they are monitoring our lives. They are moving forward now into behavior modification, and getting services ready for contractual enforcement for corporate customers. Like online cars which your bank can shut off if you are late on payments, which your insurance company will monitor to see what level your insurance should be. Telemetry will track where you go to eat, so your health insurance can set rates. Everything will be a camera and an audio pick up. They will be selling all your data and able to sense everything. And Trump made this easier. That’s why when you Google now, you get products first. He is either ignorant about them, which would be a huge ignorance, or he does not care.

You aksed.

Don’t bitch and moan at me if you don’t like the answer.

Wait wait. You make a living doing something creative and… you’re complaining?

That says it all.
This is so brutally naive I am stunned.

Modern western-born socialists never came into smelling distance of even the mildest earthly hardship. They are so completely oblivious of the privilege they were given at birth that nature herself is blushing in embarrassment.

Rhetorics aside, google has been a paid catalogue for well over a decade, if you wanted to appear in it with your company in 2008, you had to pay for ads as well. In 2015, my phones illicit voice recognition was already producing ads about most things I was talking about in its vicinity. I guess Trump must be good friends with dr Emmett Brown.

Let me know if you care to actually put that in an argument form and/or respond to my post.

Are you actually saying that since I make money from creative work, I should not give a shit about totalitarian trends? about a panopticon that is much more in place already than peopel realize? the way children are being made into addicted zombies? I mean, if you aren’t willing to actually make an argument - I know, I guess it could be seen as scary - I have to guess at the above.

Hey, look, if you have some shit job, I’d feel sympathy. I worked hard but I also had some luck too. If you think Trump is going to make it easier for you to not have a shit job, good luck. If you have a decent job that matches your skills and interests, then why the fuck do you complain about left policies?

I mean seriously, come on, make some sense.

And, in case, this for some reason needs to be said, I wasn’t complaining about having creative work.

Yeah, I knew I was gonna hit a nerve.

You’re a person deeply privileged by your capitalist environment. But you want to feel like a victim.

Way to ignore the very argument of your own life, not to mention everything I said.

Where would you be under Socialism? Considering how unhappy you are with an existence that, to anyone living in Socialism would be absolute paradise, you would likely have long killed yourself.

For your information about my own situation - not everyone who disagrees with your ideology does so out of unhappiness. You’ll be hard pressed to find a happier man than me, if we’re not looking at contentedness but deeper. I like my struggle.

Its rather my happiness which prompts me to look down with a bit of amusement on your lack of gratitude for your privilege, a privilege of seeing ones own valued efforts valued by society. Thats a most beautiful gift to have. Capitalism at work.

I know what Socialism is, I grew up in it. I know what Capitalism is, Ive found freedom in it. Its good not to have to work for the state. Its good to not be on welfare. Its good that the government doesn’t control the value of my efforts. I am grateful.

I was critical of the response, not bitching and moaning.

I could have responded to your other post by saying ‘Don’t go all hysterical…’ but that would be just making shit up. This isn’t just personalities and putdowns.

I was critical of your response. It did not make clear you even understood the issues. So I repeated them. I have some sense of your beliefs. I can’t imagine you want facebook to have more power than it already has.

Where have I said I am a victim? I mentioned my job precisely because it meant I was doing well, I don’t reach even the middle class, but I am doing something I like. I would likely be doing it under a monarchy also and certainly in most of what the right calls socialist countries also. IOW this is precisely not me complaining about my personal situation. I find your response off topic and silly, point this out and I am playing victim. What are you 5? You usually don’t waste my time. I generally like the way you post, but you see the word capitalists, assume you know me, and just support other people drivel and come with no substance yourself.

Did you actually read his ridiculous response? Nah.

You’re a team player. So my post triggers you into thinking I am on the other team, since you think there are only two. So you attack me personally, instead of seeing if his post made the slightest sense. Because he’s on your team.

You assume later you know my ideology. You don’t. I don’t fit in the easy boxed and am pissed at the two sides I am told I am supposed to pick from.

The self-congratulate thing with you hitting a nerve is just snore positioning garbage.

Your comment made no sense. I pointed this out. You can show how what I said was wrong or you can keep focus on me and not deal with substance.

I could frame your posts as victim, and call it all whining about socialists, and virtue signalers and how terrible you think everything is. Who cares? I see a lot of focusing on me and not a lot of response to the issues I raised.

And whatever the faults of socialists and there are many this does not mean capitalism is OK.

It’s like I have two terrible neighbors and when I tell one not to drive his car at the kids on the block he tells me the guy across the street is giving them drugs.

My response to both is, yeah, great, the other side you think is the only possible other side is fucked up. Great, that doesn’t mean your favorite team doesn’t have problems.

It’s funny, you’re still just happy with the idea that since I have a creative job, I think I am a victim if I am critical of the advances in power of certain monopolies towards totalitarian control, even while conservatives whine about fb - though they seem ignorant in general about the power of google.

Again, read The Rise of Surveillance Capitalism, get back to me.

You have no idea what is already happening. Of if you do, you perhaps out of misguided team loyalty don’t want to say anything about it.

I hear the right complain about facebook, well guess what, they are aiming for power way beyond what they have now and nothing is getting in the way. Smart cities are coming, so even if you can keep your house clean and your phone safely not a smart one, they gonna know all about everything you and your kids and your peers do. But they’ll never be an issue cause they’re a corporation, only governments with their taxes and pc laws are a danger.

Since you can’t even bother to make a post with substance that’s the idiocy on your part I’m left with.

Team zombies meet team zombies. Where’s SErendipper when you need him? I could leave you to play with each other, like you are in the public realm, the two bears dominance posing to the mirror image.

Talk about triggered. The capitalists attack me and do not respond to points made.

They would be absolutely right that the left would respond the same way if I talked about immigration or the EU or Brexit.

Suddenly they would get personal and triggered and label me racist and fascist. And not get into substance.

Both groups seem to act very much the same right now.

Enjoy the debates with your mirror images everyone, the boxes are working well for you.