Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

Yes they did! I wouldn’t have it any other way though. A price must be paid for power and an understanding of that power. I appreciate so very much our perfect yet imperfect little world/universe or duality/trinity.

Pandora is right when it comes to general public doing psychedelics or drugs without much education on psychology and how the mind functions. A lot of them get caught in mysticism and ego.

It shouldn’t be looked at in an absolute fashion though, like psychedelics being bad absolutely, that is false because they aren’t bad, once again it is just man kind that makes yet -another- tool of nature bad through ignorance.

The experiment was successful and proved My point but at a cost to me.

It doesn’t sit right with me, the notion that drugs cause one to misunderstand reality.

The assumption is that reality, as understood when sober, is the understood reality - the correct reality, or closest thing to it - and drugs cause one to deviate from this correct, or most correct way of understanding reality.

Apart from the Kantian concept of noumena being directly inaccessible, or the Platonic allegory, we know that other animals have superior senses to us of both the same and different types to what we have. If an otherwise normal healthy human was blind from birth, would the sighted not think they have more information about how the world really is by virtue of their extra sense? And what if we could also use echolocation, what if we we could see light beyond the normal boundaries of e.g. visual light etc.? We would be lacking an understanding that would be more close to reality than we currently have. This alone should demonstrate how there are probably “more real” understandings than the one we are used to.
Apart from the fact that psychedelics can enhance sensory experience, what if their effects turned out to simulate an extra sense that is not yet accepted to increase understanding of reality (at least amongst those who are against drugs)? To deviate from an incomplete understanding of reality isn’t necessarily to bring about a worse understanding of reality.

Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.
It also needs to be proven that any lapse in certain senses is not a gain in other ways, or countered by different gains in other ways.

This should quite obviously be an extremely difficult task as it necessitates knowledge that is probably currently beyond human boundaries, at least without knowledge of the psychedelic experience (though may not always be as we continue to evolve - there’s no way humans are the most possible evolved of all possible species). As such, it should be clear that more evidence is needed of such experiences, not less.
Either way it’s not even certain that even severe illness, and/or confirmed reduction in understanding of reality cannot provide insight that improves one’s understanding of reality overall - or at least once one returns back to health. The assumption there is that quality can only occur from increased quantity and not decreased quantity: even knowledge of historical misunderstandings in addition to modern improvements increases the total insight one has overall. And we already know that abundance can cause misery and scarcity can bring about gratitude.

It isn’t the psychedelics themselves that offer a misconstrued idea of reality, it is the individuals themselves, the issue is of intentions. If one uses psychedelics to merely have fun and education is not this fun that one seeks then one will not gain a correct understanding. It takes a caring to understand to gain such.

Psychedelics can help shape a mind to think differently, if they use it for such… the issue is that people are using these sacred tools not understanding they are tools. So they play with the fire of their minds without the means of putting the fire out or controlling it through logic and reason.

To gain from psychedelics, one must still use the model of thought that is in and of logic/reason or they will be lost in mysticism and ignorance even worse than before, they will have become religious in themselves and not simply, spiritual. Often I have met psychedelic users whom state they meet entities and they do not understand that the subconscious mind has no discretion of what it appears as to a conscious individual, as long as it appears, the entity is that of feeling or of that which one deems more powerful than self. If one deems Odin more powerful and of wisdom, than the subconscious will appear as such to teach the individual. The subconscious is both nothing and everything you see, the illusion is that of diversity, yet it is still the same thing. Where one makes a mistake, is of drawing a literal depiction for something that is nothing, we are what create the something, you see and since we do then we have no right to depict “god” as a one thing, which concludes it is everything from nothing, due to our own diversity.

It is not the tool that is wrong but the model of thought in which one uses the tool. So Pandora is only right to an extent. I will try and type or explain my experiment when I get home on a laptop.

This isn’t the case for all individuals who use psychedelics, for us who study psychology and base our thinking off of philosophical rules and standards will not get lost, for we follow the rules of understanding. (Avoidance of fallacies)

So here is the experiment and all of its facets.

So first I must introduce to you the specific context of what the group is and what seemed to me, it’s primary focus.

So this group I had been invited to was a group of which people would talk about their psychedelic experiences, posting images, stories, and more specifically, talk about their speaking to “entities” of which sometimes were depicted as “jesters” sometimes as “aliens” like the greys, sometimes as “gnomes” and even other deities in our own history, like odin, etc.

So I had noticed one day there was this girl who posted a picture of a rock with a face on it and talked about going to go do dmt, I noted that this seemed like worship and of religious elements, of which they all claim to be “spiritual” when in fact, placing value on something in reality and attaching fantasy or the identity of which the subconscious appears as, is religious, which the image is an illusion for a specific reason (one may only be able to understand or know through being humble, so the identity shows up subconsciously of whatever one deems more powerful than them self for this very reason). I noticed she had attached significance to a rock, just because it had a “alien face” on it and that is associated with the drug or “trip”…

so let’s take a look at the definition of what worship technically is to determine if it is indeed worship, which I still think it is.

“wor·ship
/ˈwərSHəp/
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
“the worship of God”
synonyms: reverence, revering, worshipping, veneration, venerating, adoration, adoring, -olatry, devotion, praise, thanksgiving, praising, praying to, glorification, glorifying, glory, exaltation, exalting, extolment, extolling, homage, respect, honor, honoring, esteem; More
verb
1.
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
“the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods”
synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, bow down before, glorify, exalt, extol; More”

So yes, under the definition of what ‘worship’ is… it was attributing value to a rock of which she was tying to an entity of which she deems more powerful than herself, otherwise where is the value in an alien shaped face on a rock? Glorifying a rock in the guise of an alien, could be considered worship. It is at the very least bearing religious elements.

So I Criticized this post and I had stated such, that it seemed religious and that it is mysticism and not to get lost… I was attacked ferociously with ad hominem… The classic “You’re a narcissist” or “You’re full of ego and not spiritual”… those were the most used attacks. Whenever I brought up that they were using ad hominem, they would only continue and not care to see their own errors.

So I had a clever idea you see… Dedicated based off of the song “Us and them” by pink floyd… I posted a thread with several images, I will upload the images and the original written post as well.

I intentionally posted from what would seem to other members in the group, an authoritative stand point or of a standpoint with an understanding… It was criticism aimed at no one specific, but towards the group in general… I had showed a series of educational images including the definition of ad hominem so the members would be able to read and avoid it… The test was to see who was insecure with them self and would assume based off of their ego being in control of them… The old test of “A Fool speaks because he has to says something”. A few people commented and tried to understand further, they were humble and understanding… A guy even commented “Wow this is brilliant dude! It is actually hilarious to watch others negative comments because it is obvious they missed the sentiment”… So after it was posted, a moderator came and muted me for 12 hours after I had responded to them, never using any ad hominem but defending myself against their ad hominem. They stated the classic “You’re egotistical” “You need to be more spiritual”, for my criticizing and trying to improve them. You see, I never mentioned anyone specific, but -they- still assumed I was talking about them, this is a very obvious insecurity in their own character that I may observe based off of their responses. The ones who assumed I was speaking of them are the ones who feel they are being criticized, because they have something to be criticized about, so they try and defend such without knowing how to defend through logic/reason, so they resort to classic ad hom.

This psychological experiment cost my membership of that specific group and me being hated by individuals in it, (I left the group) after they deleted my post and the work that it showed.

So the simple but hard fact is, the psychedelic community, most of them are not interested in actually learning, but only escaping reality, as Pandora had stated… Psychedelics may be dangerous to those who do not wish to actually understand, due to it granting a harder trap to escape because of the whole attaching an identity of which an individual deems higher than them self to the subconscious, so the conscious mind may communicate with the subconscious mind. Imagery must occur for this, if one does not seek to understand the imagery, truly… based off of the laws of reality/philosophy and avoidance of logical/rationale fallacies, then one will get lost in mysticism and become religious, which is opposite to spirituality. It’s based off of a systematic faith, of which is invoked by this attributing power to imagery/idea.

To avoid becoming religious due to taking psychedelics, one must follow the rules of understanding… the same rules we follow here in discussion philosophically… The model of thought must be based on logic/reason with the following of the rules. So we may avoid this transition from spiritual to religious via psychedelics, by education in more psychology to the general public or very aware and psychologically experienced guides to explain to people what they see, when they see it… on a trip.

I hope this makes sense, if anyone needs me to elaborate further… I will. I am going to post the images and original written post below on imgur, feel free to check it out.

The bottom post is the original thread post. the rest of the images are all of the educational images I had posted so others would have the tools and much beyond the tools necessary to avoid ad hominem or fallacy (attacking me), but as you can see, they did not use the tools (education) due to being more blinded by ego and needing to attack me with self projection, despite their being “Enlightened” by psychedelics and “spiritual”… that’s laughable, I know the very definition of spirituality and definitely in comparison to religion, let me tell you.
imgur.com/a/etQv5fu

Yesterday i had a dream where i was in the spirit world, and my higher self let me try some kind of shrooms.
I remember it as being like time stood still. I floated in space and had a very deep sense of peace.
Also i felt that my higher self was very near me, could hear all of my thoughts.

It does feel that way. Your higher self you, Dan, just trapped in a moment not here yet, or maybe it is here and that’s why the subconscious may be communicating with you vividly. :slight_smile: the subconscious is trying to direct you to it by keeping you on your own path.

To me, this is like spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution. What reason do you have to doubt validity of default sober perception? Why is it flawed? Because you can’t fly like a bat at night using echolocation? Because you did not evolve to see a UV light?
Humans evolved a unique enough awareness that enabled them to survive to this day. Other animals had a different evolutionary history and evolved other traits which enabled them to survive in their own niche. Repeat, different evolutionary histories, different survival strategies, and different evolved traits. Chemically altering your (human) brain is not going to make you tap into your inner bat sonar or whatever animal trait or sense you think is not activated by regular human perception. Because you’re not supposed to have it to begin with. By drugging yourself with psychedelics, you’re not even exposing yourself to external reality, so how can you even call it an exploration of reality when you’re not even engaging it.

You do explore external reality just through a different perspective/creativeness. You still have vision of it, the issue is of if one abuses psychedelics without any understanding of reality and how it functions along with self previous to their consumption.

We are nature conscious of itself, so doesn’t that Kind of defeat the argument of not supposed to be taking or having something? We may choose our own evolutionary path, that’s what consciousness literally is.

Psychedelics would be great in helping mankind connect with self and the inner aspects of mind but just have to be cautious and understand certain aspects of the mind and reality beforehand. They are powerful in helping with psychotherapy especially, due to the communication with the subconscious (higher or external self), consciously.

Our niche is expanding and so must our consciousness and creative ability, to survive and expand further.

Criticism isn’t disrespect and ingratitude, except to the narcissist by the yes-man. Quite the opposite is the case, just as you tell your friend what you think of their new song or outfit, both bad and good. You don’t look at millions of years of evolution and say it’s perfect and could not possibly be improved in the slightest - that would be to spit in its face.

What reason do you have not to doubt the validity of default sober perception, in the face of optical illusions, misunderstandings, limited faculties etc.? Our awareness is sufficient, that is all - and only for a limited time at that. When inspiration hits from nowhere, maybe even during a dream when the brain is on standby, or in the delirium of fever, which turns out to be valuable insight even once rational, awake and healthy again - is the value invalidated by virtue of one’s condition at the time it occurred? Were you not supposed to have it because you were not at the height of your default sober perception?

Every illusion, dream, hallcination, misunderstanding is really happening to you when it does, even if it’s not matching the default sober perception of reality. The ingredients themselves are always taken from reality, just reassembled in a new way that is necessary for both misunderstanding the world and re-imagining a better misunderstanding of it. Creativity doesn’t happen from sticking to the default sober perception of reality - sticking to the know and accepted is exactly how you don’t create. You need to pick it apart and stick it back together in a new way to innovate - even the picking apart itself, only to reassemble exactly how it was before is enough to humble someone who took everything for granted and accepted the normal failures and struggles of life without question. Only after this can someone appreciate how much of a slave they used to be - hence all the talk of freeing your mind after deconstructing your assumptions through whatever means. Critical thinking, meditation, somehow such healthy things can achieve the same or similar result as a drug trip - does the means really matter when one returns to normal afterwards either way? Was the monk not “supposed” to reach enlightenment? Was the mathematician spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution when they found a common assumption to be flawed? They’re all engaging reality - that’s the thing about reality, you can’t escape it. It’s not like the drug user disappears from reality, they experience the same reality as you do, but in a different way - (same ingredients, different cake) and ironically in doing so they expand their reality in ways that will never have even occurred to you because you were too rigid in your grip over what you want reality to be. You know it’s all in your head, right? Sober or not, sensation and interpretation is your mind, it doesn’t happen “out there”. Your reality is in your mind, you just evolved to be able to agree with others about what reality is in a useful way that would appear to be representative of something “out there” through its relative practical success, but which you can never directly confirm. Simple, healthy logic can get you to that basic philosophical consideration - you seem to be putting far too much stock into “that one way that everything is, sober people agree, end of conversation”. Philosophy 101 will highlight all kinds of things you can’t know that shake up the possibilities of what reality could be - I assume you are aware, being a member of this forum? Why is it wrong if you shake up reality in the exact same way through psychedelics?

Pandora, humans and al kinds of animals have eaten psychedelics for many millions of years. Birds are likely constantly a bit high if they can manage. A lot of their foods are the sort of poisons that bring about trips.

Maybe humans attained conceptual consciousness because of psychedelics. The use of them in ancient tribes is so widely documented it seems to have been almost the rule. Maybe we are doing so bad as a society because we’ve banned their use.

Certainly the discoveries done on LSD are interesting. The most famous example is DNA. Francis Crick used it in his research.

And this is my position before this drug, that one should only use it for research or other holy matters. Ive used it twice, and it was remarkably interesting what I could find out about my own mind. Id not use it for recreation.

Yes, I also meant to bring up the point that maybe Pandora has it backwards - instead of seeing psychedelics as an afront to evolution, one could just as easily argue that we evolved to be able to have a psychedelic experience upon ingesting certain substances - and as with substances like DMT, we already produce it naturally. What is the issue with being induced to produce what we already produce within our evolved brains? Pandora’s PC assumption assumes too much: an analogy might be the schoolboy understanding that “bacteria are bad”, when we live symbiotically with bacteria: there are bacteria that produce certain effects and others that produce others - perhaps dependent upon one another, but definitely embedded in a complex ecosystem of their own. The good and bad effects are so mixed up within the whole gestalt that it’s dishonest to force a good/bad dichotomy from bacteria except in edge cases that are more to do with quantity than which bacteria they are. And oh yeah, we are 10 times more bacteria than we are human, in order to be human at all… In just the same way, it’s unscrupulous to divide all the chemicals that effect the brain sternly into polar absolutes of good/bad when they exist along a spectrum just as bacteria do. Reality isn’t black and white, a drug induced exploration of colour is no different from any other exploration of it - you balance the quantities of everything on your “bad side” just as you do on the “good side” and it’s actually all good, all harmonious with our astounding evolution, and all healthy. I’m reminded of a kid who just won’t eat his broccoli.

This is the same way that psychotics experience reality, same reality perceived differently, in their own head (which they come believe to be the ultimate source of it). What you’re really doing is trying to normalize (justify) psychosis.
And it’s easy to hide it behind art, as it is one of the venues that has openly embraced it (I’m not counting religion here and other subtler forms).
The starting point comes in believing that reality is really all in one’s head, and can be manipulated (created) by mind/brain manipulation. The person then becomes convinced of delusional ideas such as consciousness existing before matter and not the other way (mind being the ultimate cause of everything). Enter psychosis. Once one is convinced of this as a fact, magical and special things start happening to him. The reality now speaks to him and him only, through symbols, images and patterns. He’s now a special person living in a special universe, and having a special relationship with it. Much better than being exposed to harsh elements. This is a shortcut to the promised land of milk and honey. This is also a cheap and quick fix. (emphasis on being cheap)

Timothy Treadwell thought so too, until he was proven wrong.

I believe that drugs could be a possible source of religions. But the mindset of the drug user itself has not changed.

. If everybody was doing drugs, nothing would ever get done.

Holy matters?

Like…desecration? Because that’s what it would be.

Perhaps I am psychotic? Is that an implication that you are entertaining? I don’t believe I am, I think that whilst it’s scientific fact that reality is all in one’s head and I realised this before taking any drugs except alcohol, the difference between what you describe as psychotic and what isn’t, is in the recognition that there are limits on what the mind can control and what it cannot. Just because it’s all in your head, doesn’t mean you can control everything that’s going on in your head. The apportioning of this control, and how much of it is you and how much isn’t, is the difference between the psychotic and non-psychotic.

I read the death section of Timothy Treadwell’s wiki and am not sure of the parallel you’re trying to infer. Being mauled to death by a bear is no proof that sense information doesn’t appear to enter through your sensory organs, that the information isn’t carried electrically to the brain and it isn’t decoded and constructed into reality only once it gets there. I would think you have to be psychotic to think your experience of reality is direct, or that your experience is a perfect replica of its apparent cause. The common assumption is that the sense data is the result of a prior interaction with noumena “out there” before it is translated into a phenomenological represenation in your mind. The final result is the cessation of mind interpretation of sense data (death) either way, and neither disproves that all reality is in your head.

Again, I figured all this out way before I tried psychedelics - and I’m glad I did, because the experience was enriched by this understanding. This is just philosophy - I don’t think you should be trying to pathologise and compartmentalise fact just to concur with the crudeness of your argument.

Not true. Especially not when it comes to stimulants, which are routinely responsible for super-human levels of getting things done.

Also, nobody is advocating a continuous life-long drug trip as far as I know. At least I’m only advocating that recreationally psychedelics can be beneficial outside of “getting things done”, in much the same way as sleep, contemplation, relaxation and leisure activities can be a beneficial complement to “getting things done”. Doesn’t even have to be regular or frequent, and of course it is optional - but those who opt out have no authority on what the experience is like and what it can do for you in the positive sense in just the same way as anything in life. Allow me to lecture you all about what it is like to be a woman. How you speak of desecration reminds me of primitive religious ideas that males had about menstruation.

The subconscious did come before… reactions and single cell organisms still instinctually reacted with other things to bring more causation. Consciousness came out of that. The first reaction of two or more variables is what started it all, is that not instinct or subconscious?

Reality doesn’t speak to any one person only. That’s your own assumption.

You said,

You’re idolizing it into an ultimate source of reality, when it’s just another element in a causal chain. It’s not eternal and timeless, and it did not start objective reality.

Today’s science is also (and to the excitement of those secretly seeking reprieve) advertising the possibility of nonsense like holographic universe and cosmic telepathy. The real answer and the cause, of course, is in one’s mind (and altering of the mind is usually involved). And the real indisputable evidence is either just around the corner or observed only under special (or arbitrary) conditions.

Except objective reality was caused by the subconscious/unconscious. A series of reactions of which instinct plays a role. Which the subconscious is a another stepping stone… it’s even observable in micro single cell biology. If two things mix and it’s a reaction through nature then that shows that nature is instinctual/subconscious. Everything is energy and responds.

If energy slows its vibration by reaction or from a cause and makes a gas which gasses form other things from reactions, eventually leading to life or consciousness then that should tell you that the unconscious/consciousness is from the beginning. A mineral/gas can’t feel, but they may react but it has no concept of time. If something reacts, is that not a form of unconscious or an instinct? Stimuli leads to more stimuli which creates complex life.

Since the unconscious do not have a perception/differentiation of or between time then there is no matter of it being “how long”, it happens and that’s that. It is what it is.

Its quite simple, Pandora -
in order to see how the mind works, you have to see how it errs. LSD and other psychedelics show you what happens when the mind is deranged.
They do so in specific ways. LSD is a non emotional observation of different shortcircuits between senses and cortexes. Its absolutely dangerous, but that is warranted when a culture stagnates, because this stagnation is very much more dangerous, it is what causes genocides and pestilences. You know this Im sure.
Psychedelics are a key to grease the wheels of hell, if you know what I mean,
They too have to turn. Otherwise society becomes stuck in that precise bit you don’t want to get stuck in.

So, Athens has its ways with them as well as any old culture that is worth remembering.
If it is not used to ends like these and used for personal entertainment, debasement is pretty much certain.

Shamans can’t be idle.

Im not with the ones who see the light with lsd or with any drug. The light is pretty obvious out there in the Big Dipper, the Pleiades, Sirius… these deep-light pools in the sky. Where light is somehow fresher than anywhere else.

Psychedelics don’t show you astronomical gamma tracings though, they show you your own physiology.

And if your physiology is such that it sees not the light but the dank alone, then a quick derangement may produce a natural perception of the Light, and one shall be redeemed. If one manages to not become addicted to substances and rather ride out the conflict of the habitual corpse of Saturn and the new born Dionysus. As this no drug will tell you - the prize is not in the awareness of the light but in the same things life was always about in the first place. What the light grants is a true enjoyment of them, a bit of eternity in every act of nourishment or replenishment, - the awareness of karma as translation into chi, the occult.