Dimethyltryptamine and psychedelics

If you believe that a mind can be mistaken, or is capable of misperceiving reality, then you must consider the possibility that a hallucinating mind is having a wrong understanding of reality.

I wouldn’t say it’s a wrong understanding of reality. It simply gives you more angles to look at reality from, many more.

The mind can misperceive reality itself through optical illusions, does this mean we have a wrong understanding of reality?

It is not ‘wrong’ understanding of reality.

It is a different perspective of reality which can potentially be insightful or merely useless visuals/experiences.

We need still knowledge, wisdom, rationality, psychology-proper, critical thinking to sieve out what is potentially useful for the individual’s well being.

I understand those with Impulse Control Disorders will likely end up as addicts if we do not take care of such problem [or any other mental problems] before allowing anyone to venture into psychedelics.

Btw, there are natural means to trigger DMT [which is naturally in all humans] where the experiences may not be very significant but enough to trigger some kind of Altered States of Consciousness.

I did Ayahuasca in Brazil with an old poster here. Her father gave me a very big dose without telling me. Until after I had drank it.
So the trip came. Im rather experienced in meditation and have accomplished much in the occult.
The spirit of it told me to go home, that I know everything I need to know and I need to teach it. Very weird, as I had expected to be more or less pulled apart in some agonic understanding of some kind of new layer. But on the other hand I know damn well that what I arrived at philosophically is the result in part of processing psychedelic experiences.

I really appreciated the cleaning it gave my bowels.
Had to scrub the toilet the day after.

LSD equally didn’t shake me. It just showed me how my mind could be rewired to come up with different experiences.

No, not at all. Obviously not. Entropy is a function of order. Ordering is a function of valuing, or Love, as it is ultimately recognized.
(This is what the Ayahuasca agreed with)

But one needs to be ready for it. Being aware of the true power of valuing requires full cognizance of entropy, death and horror.
Most people seek to avoid that knowledge and get “bad trips”
I never had a bad trip, as I have no talent for evasion.

Yeah I had this in my first trip on synthetic psychedelics. I nearly had to crash my head into the wall to make it stop. The cosmos just kept unfolding in continuously more dimensions where as a human I could barely handle the fifth. When it had ended I was just relieved to be back in a human mind.
Ive come along way since. But most people who trip don’t come a long way. They don’t realize the real work is done in sobriety, afterwards, and they just… fade away.

.I have as well, before I have ever touched a psychedelic I have been interested in its culture, the occult, symbolism, etc, all of it and seeking to learn more about everything, I was a fiend to learning and seeking understanding. Basically that is what I felt it was stating, to return back to earth and that it cannot show me much more than I already understand, to be patient and appreciate the now for what it is.

LSD hit me hard my last time I did it and the dmt just as equally. I don’t do these psychedelics for fun like others because the fun to me is the learning, which is agony. I let it criticize me and put my ego to the dirt to and to understand this dirt is the very foundation of the egos/consciousness spawning out of it, ego spawning out of nature/subconscious.

I have not tried ayahuasca yet, I am not sure I will ever, but I am not opposed to the experience, perhaps later on.

I agree about your point on value, love, expression, etc. It’s similar to why art is so important along with love/kindness and understanding.

Yes, too many people abuse these substances for fun and they miss the messaging, they don’t try to understand themself and reality, they disregard their use and disrespect them as the tools they are. I appreciate the duality/trinity of chaos/order/existence

This is what I am trying to explain and how they are used as a tool, understanding and the work may be done in sobriety by being able to piece together what you now believe to know. To correlate information and fill in gaps by a new/different perspective or angle to perceive. I have come a long way and hope to continue going further, of course that is the only option once one understands certain things, a point of no return.

Yes. Once one acquires a certain degree of understanding, this translates in a momentum.

In the Tree of Life, it is said that once when gets to that point, one better ready to cross the Abyss that lies between the situational mind and the absolute.

What it comes down to in simple terms is that, to survive all this power, one must be able and willing and actually ready to act on behalf of the earth. Sacred knowledge unemployed is clearly the “sin” in this play, as in missing the mark, the point.

One isn’t given power to just sit on it. It will consume the mind. The mind needs to be humble before this power and constantly inquire as to how to put it to best use.
And to whom one should address the inquiry is, indeed, the dirt, from whence we came. And this dirt may eventually introduce us to our proper gods.

Power of vision must be employed or it will have its way with the initiate.
A basic matter of grounding.

Yes and the funny part of it, one doesn’t invite the power or invent it, it is a put upon pie, something the Other iimposes on one.

Strange as it seems, the learning consists of dealing with it, and through dealing, with evolving arte forms, consisting of such a magnitude , that only an involved person can comprehend or deal with

This art, would become an irrevocable deal ; separating those who are not cosigners.

Others would opt out quick not merely because they would need to become responsible for their own actions, but when they came to realize that magnitude of responsibility for others’ welfare , that may overwhelm them, that may not allow any redactions.

A very large percentage of human beings would rather have fun with them.

Ancient gods did draw irrevocable circles around the loving yet rightfully condemned.

When you said a basic matter of grounding I thought of the inverted pentagram with baphomet, so often associated with evil, let us not forget, whence man cometh. From the elements spirit did manifest into. We travel from the bottom of the inverted pentagram point to the top of the pentagram point, we are born as spirits manifested into the elements with little to no knowledge, mastery is balance and the spirit being at the top(a state of insight). The goat is depicted in the inverted pentagram as a reminder, follow the goat, the flame, the knowledge so one may arrive at the top point. It is a journey. Symbols are never evil until one interprets and /uses/ them as such. These are tools to be regarded though I am positive you already understand this, I just wanted to add on a perspective of that last bit for some referencing.

I agree with you.

Yes they did! I wouldn’t have it any other way though. A price must be paid for power and an understanding of that power. I appreciate so very much our perfect yet imperfect little world/universe or duality/trinity.

Pandora is right when it comes to general public doing psychedelics or drugs without much education on psychology and how the mind functions. A lot of them get caught in mysticism and ego.

It shouldn’t be looked at in an absolute fashion though, like psychedelics being bad absolutely, that is false because they aren’t bad, once again it is just man kind that makes yet -another- tool of nature bad through ignorance.

The experiment was successful and proved My point but at a cost to me.

It doesn’t sit right with me, the notion that drugs cause one to misunderstand reality.

The assumption is that reality, as understood when sober, is the understood reality - the correct reality, or closest thing to it - and drugs cause one to deviate from this correct, or most correct way of understanding reality.

Apart from the Kantian concept of noumena being directly inaccessible, or the Platonic allegory, we know that other animals have superior senses to us of both the same and different types to what we have. If an otherwise normal healthy human was blind from birth, would the sighted not think they have more information about how the world really is by virtue of their extra sense? And what if we could also use echolocation, what if we we could see light beyond the normal boundaries of e.g. visual light etc.? We would be lacking an understanding that would be more close to reality than we currently have. This alone should demonstrate how there are probably “more real” understandings than the one we are used to.
Apart from the fact that psychedelics can enhance sensory experience, what if their effects turned out to simulate an extra sense that is not yet accepted to increase understanding of reality (at least amongst those who are against drugs)? To deviate from an incomplete understanding of reality isn’t necessarily to bring about a worse understanding of reality.

Pandora needs to prove that psychedelics necessarily cannot bring about a better understanding of reality than the flawed one that we know we currently accept as normal and sober.
It also needs to be proven that any lapse in certain senses is not a gain in other ways, or countered by different gains in other ways.

This should quite obviously be an extremely difficult task as it necessitates knowledge that is probably currently beyond human boundaries, at least without knowledge of the psychedelic experience (though may not always be as we continue to evolve - there’s no way humans are the most possible evolved of all possible species). As such, it should be clear that more evidence is needed of such experiences, not less.
Either way it’s not even certain that even severe illness, and/or confirmed reduction in understanding of reality cannot provide insight that improves one’s understanding of reality overall - or at least once one returns back to health. The assumption there is that quality can only occur from increased quantity and not decreased quantity: even knowledge of historical misunderstandings in addition to modern improvements increases the total insight one has overall. And we already know that abundance can cause misery and scarcity can bring about gratitude.

It isn’t the psychedelics themselves that offer a misconstrued idea of reality, it is the individuals themselves, the issue is of intentions. If one uses psychedelics to merely have fun and education is not this fun that one seeks then one will not gain a correct understanding. It takes a caring to understand to gain such.

Psychedelics can help shape a mind to think differently, if they use it for such… the issue is that people are using these sacred tools not understanding they are tools. So they play with the fire of their minds without the means of putting the fire out or controlling it through logic and reason.

To gain from psychedelics, one must still use the model of thought that is in and of logic/reason or they will be lost in mysticism and ignorance even worse than before, they will have become religious in themselves and not simply, spiritual. Often I have met psychedelic users whom state they meet entities and they do not understand that the subconscious mind has no discretion of what it appears as to a conscious individual, as long as it appears, the entity is that of feeling or of that which one deems more powerful than self. If one deems Odin more powerful and of wisdom, than the subconscious will appear as such to teach the individual. The subconscious is both nothing and everything you see, the illusion is that of diversity, yet it is still the same thing. Where one makes a mistake, is of drawing a literal depiction for something that is nothing, we are what create the something, you see and since we do then we have no right to depict “god” as a one thing, which concludes it is everything from nothing, due to our own diversity.

It is not the tool that is wrong but the model of thought in which one uses the tool. So Pandora is only right to an extent. I will try and type or explain my experiment when I get home on a laptop.

This isn’t the case for all individuals who use psychedelics, for us who study psychology and base our thinking off of philosophical rules and standards will not get lost, for we follow the rules of understanding. (Avoidance of fallacies)

So here is the experiment and all of its facets.

So first I must introduce to you the specific context of what the group is and what seemed to me, it’s primary focus.

So this group I had been invited to was a group of which people would talk about their psychedelic experiences, posting images, stories, and more specifically, talk about their speaking to “entities” of which sometimes were depicted as “jesters” sometimes as “aliens” like the greys, sometimes as “gnomes” and even other deities in our own history, like odin, etc.

So I had noticed one day there was this girl who posted a picture of a rock with a face on it and talked about going to go do dmt, I noted that this seemed like worship and of religious elements, of which they all claim to be “spiritual” when in fact, placing value on something in reality and attaching fantasy or the identity of which the subconscious appears as, is religious, which the image is an illusion for a specific reason (one may only be able to understand or know through being humble, so the identity shows up subconsciously of whatever one deems more powerful than them self for this very reason). I noticed she had attached significance to a rock, just because it had a “alien face” on it and that is associated with the drug or “trip”…

so let’s take a look at the definition of what worship technically is to determine if it is indeed worship, which I still think it is.

“wor·ship
/ˈwərSHəp/
noun
1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.
“the worship of God”
synonyms: reverence, revering, worshipping, veneration, venerating, adoration, adoring, -olatry, devotion, praise, thanksgiving, praising, praying to, glorification, glorifying, glory, exaltation, exalting, extolment, extolling, homage, respect, honor, honoring, esteem; More
verb
1.
show reverence and adoration for (a deity); honor with religious rites.
“the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods”
synonyms: revere, reverence, venerate, pay homage to, honor, adore, praise, pray to, bow down before, glorify, exalt, extol; More”

So yes, under the definition of what ‘worship’ is… it was attributing value to a rock of which she was tying to an entity of which she deems more powerful than herself, otherwise where is the value in an alien shaped face on a rock? Glorifying a rock in the guise of an alien, could be considered worship. It is at the very least bearing religious elements.

So I Criticized this post and I had stated such, that it seemed religious and that it is mysticism and not to get lost… I was attacked ferociously with ad hominem… The classic “You’re a narcissist” or “You’re full of ego and not spiritual”… those were the most used attacks. Whenever I brought up that they were using ad hominem, they would only continue and not care to see their own errors.

So I had a clever idea you see… Dedicated based off of the song “Us and them” by pink floyd… I posted a thread with several images, I will upload the images and the original written post as well.

I intentionally posted from what would seem to other members in the group, an authoritative stand point or of a standpoint with an understanding… It was criticism aimed at no one specific, but towards the group in general… I had showed a series of educational images including the definition of ad hominem so the members would be able to read and avoid it… The test was to see who was insecure with them self and would assume based off of their ego being in control of them… The old test of “A Fool speaks because he has to says something”. A few people commented and tried to understand further, they were humble and understanding… A guy even commented “Wow this is brilliant dude! It is actually hilarious to watch others negative comments because it is obvious they missed the sentiment”… So after it was posted, a moderator came and muted me for 12 hours after I had responded to them, never using any ad hominem but defending myself against their ad hominem. They stated the classic “You’re egotistical” “You need to be more spiritual”, for my criticizing and trying to improve them. You see, I never mentioned anyone specific, but -they- still assumed I was talking about them, this is a very obvious insecurity in their own character that I may observe based off of their responses. The ones who assumed I was speaking of them are the ones who feel they are being criticized, because they have something to be criticized about, so they try and defend such without knowing how to defend through logic/reason, so they resort to classic ad hom.

This psychological experiment cost my membership of that specific group and me being hated by individuals in it, (I left the group) after they deleted my post and the work that it showed.

So the simple but hard fact is, the psychedelic community, most of them are not interested in actually learning, but only escaping reality, as Pandora had stated… Psychedelics may be dangerous to those who do not wish to actually understand, due to it granting a harder trap to escape because of the whole attaching an identity of which an individual deems higher than them self to the subconscious, so the conscious mind may communicate with the subconscious mind. Imagery must occur for this, if one does not seek to understand the imagery, truly… based off of the laws of reality/philosophy and avoidance of logical/rationale fallacies, then one will get lost in mysticism and become religious, which is opposite to spirituality. It’s based off of a systematic faith, of which is invoked by this attributing power to imagery/idea.

To avoid becoming religious due to taking psychedelics, one must follow the rules of understanding… the same rules we follow here in discussion philosophically… The model of thought must be based on logic/reason with the following of the rules. So we may avoid this transition from spiritual to religious via psychedelics, by education in more psychology to the general public or very aware and psychologically experienced guides to explain to people what they see, when they see it… on a trip.

I hope this makes sense, if anyone needs me to elaborate further… I will. I am going to post the images and original written post below on imgur, feel free to check it out.

The bottom post is the original thread post. the rest of the images are all of the educational images I had posted so others would have the tools and much beyond the tools necessary to avoid ad hominem or fallacy (attacking me), but as you can see, they did not use the tools (education) due to being more blinded by ego and needing to attack me with self projection, despite their being “Enlightened” by psychedelics and “spiritual”… that’s laughable, I know the very definition of spirituality and definitely in comparison to religion, let me tell you.
imgur.com/a/etQv5fu

Yesterday i had a dream where i was in the spirit world, and my higher self let me try some kind of shrooms.
I remember it as being like time stood still. I floated in space and had a very deep sense of peace.
Also i felt that my higher self was very near me, could hear all of my thoughts.

It does feel that way. Your higher self you, Dan, just trapped in a moment not here yet, or maybe it is here and that’s why the subconscious may be communicating with you vividly. :slight_smile: the subconscious is trying to direct you to it by keeping you on your own path.

To me, this is like spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution. What reason do you have to doubt validity of default sober perception? Why is it flawed? Because you can’t fly like a bat at night using echolocation? Because you did not evolve to see a UV light?
Humans evolved a unique enough awareness that enabled them to survive to this day. Other animals had a different evolutionary history and evolved other traits which enabled them to survive in their own niche. Repeat, different evolutionary histories, different survival strategies, and different evolved traits. Chemically altering your (human) brain is not going to make you tap into your inner bat sonar or whatever animal trait or sense you think is not activated by regular human perception. Because you’re not supposed to have it to begin with. By drugging yourself with psychedelics, you’re not even exposing yourself to external reality, so how can you even call it an exploration of reality when you’re not even engaging it.

You do explore external reality just through a different perspective/creativeness. You still have vision of it, the issue is of if one abuses psychedelics without any understanding of reality and how it functions along with self previous to their consumption.

We are nature conscious of itself, so doesn’t that Kind of defeat the argument of not supposed to be taking or having something? We may choose our own evolutionary path, that’s what consciousness literally is.

Psychedelics would be great in helping mankind connect with self and the inner aspects of mind but just have to be cautious and understand certain aspects of the mind and reality beforehand. They are powerful in helping with psychotherapy especially, due to the communication with the subconscious (higher or external self), consciously.

Our niche is expanding and so must our consciousness and creative ability, to survive and expand further.

Criticism isn’t disrespect and ingratitude, except to the narcissist by the yes-man. Quite the opposite is the case, just as you tell your friend what you think of their new song or outfit, both bad and good. You don’t look at millions of years of evolution and say it’s perfect and could not possibly be improved in the slightest - that would be to spit in its face.

What reason do you have not to doubt the validity of default sober perception, in the face of optical illusions, misunderstandings, limited faculties etc.? Our awareness is sufficient, that is all - and only for a limited time at that. When inspiration hits from nowhere, maybe even during a dream when the brain is on standby, or in the delirium of fever, which turns out to be valuable insight even once rational, awake and healthy again - is the value invalidated by virtue of one’s condition at the time it occurred? Were you not supposed to have it because you were not at the height of your default sober perception?

Every illusion, dream, hallcination, misunderstanding is really happening to you when it does, even if it’s not matching the default sober perception of reality. The ingredients themselves are always taken from reality, just reassembled in a new way that is necessary for both misunderstanding the world and re-imagining a better misunderstanding of it. Creativity doesn’t happen from sticking to the default sober perception of reality - sticking to the know and accepted is exactly how you don’t create. You need to pick it apart and stick it back together in a new way to innovate - even the picking apart itself, only to reassemble exactly how it was before is enough to humble someone who took everything for granted and accepted the normal failures and struggles of life without question. Only after this can someone appreciate how much of a slave they used to be - hence all the talk of freeing your mind after deconstructing your assumptions through whatever means. Critical thinking, meditation, somehow such healthy things can achieve the same or similar result as a drug trip - does the means really matter when one returns to normal afterwards either way? Was the monk not “supposed” to reach enlightenment? Was the mathematician spitting in the face of millions of years of evolution when they found a common assumption to be flawed? They’re all engaging reality - that’s the thing about reality, you can’t escape it. It’s not like the drug user disappears from reality, they experience the same reality as you do, but in a different way - (same ingredients, different cake) and ironically in doing so they expand their reality in ways that will never have even occurred to you because you were too rigid in your grip over what you want reality to be. You know it’s all in your head, right? Sober or not, sensation and interpretation is your mind, it doesn’t happen “out there”. Your reality is in your mind, you just evolved to be able to agree with others about what reality is in a useful way that would appear to be representative of something “out there” through its relative practical success, but which you can never directly confirm. Simple, healthy logic can get you to that basic philosophical consideration - you seem to be putting far too much stock into “that one way that everything is, sober people agree, end of conversation”. Philosophy 101 will highlight all kinds of things you can’t know that shake up the possibilities of what reality could be - I assume you are aware, being a member of this forum? Why is it wrong if you shake up reality in the exact same way through psychedelics?

Pandora, humans and al kinds of animals have eaten psychedelics for many millions of years. Birds are likely constantly a bit high if they can manage. A lot of their foods are the sort of poisons that bring about trips.

Maybe humans attained conceptual consciousness because of psychedelics. The use of them in ancient tribes is so widely documented it seems to have been almost the rule. Maybe we are doing so bad as a society because we’ve banned their use.

Certainly the discoveries done on LSD are interesting. The most famous example is DNA. Francis Crick used it in his research.

And this is my position before this drug, that one should only use it for research or other holy matters. Ive used it twice, and it was remarkably interesting what I could find out about my own mind. Id not use it for recreation.

Yes, I also meant to bring up the point that maybe Pandora has it backwards - instead of seeing psychedelics as an afront to evolution, one could just as easily argue that we evolved to be able to have a psychedelic experience upon ingesting certain substances - and as with substances like DMT, we already produce it naturally. What is the issue with being induced to produce what we already produce within our evolved brains? Pandora’s PC assumption assumes too much: an analogy might be the schoolboy understanding that “bacteria are bad”, when we live symbiotically with bacteria: there are bacteria that produce certain effects and others that produce others - perhaps dependent upon one another, but definitely embedded in a complex ecosystem of their own. The good and bad effects are so mixed up within the whole gestalt that it’s dishonest to force a good/bad dichotomy from bacteria except in edge cases that are more to do with quantity than which bacteria they are. And oh yeah, we are 10 times more bacteria than we are human, in order to be human at all… In just the same way, it’s unscrupulous to divide all the chemicals that effect the brain sternly into polar absolutes of good/bad when they exist along a spectrum just as bacteria do. Reality isn’t black and white, a drug induced exploration of colour is no different from any other exploration of it - you balance the quantities of everything on your “bad side” just as you do on the “good side” and it’s actually all good, all harmonious with our astounding evolution, and all healthy. I’m reminded of a kid who just won’t eat his broccoli.