Systemic Racism?

Discussion of the recent unfolding of history.

Systemic Racism?

Postby Bob » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:09 pm

Just recently there seems to be a tendency for white academics to come out with claims of systemic racism, accusing themselves of racism as a way of attacking a system which is inherently racist, but letting themselves off the hook by doing that.
https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1101487253140967430?fbclid=IwAR2ZSXMw7kGbqt4PjRsv3WuzYBLn6LuE2lqWQRDDI662i98HnaUkeLE33Ag

The same has been happening with regard to relations with Trans-People and Gender has become the central issue for some people. As a "white man" I have even been told that my non-racist approach (I don't look for a difference) is also racist because I refuse to see the black man and his struggles.

What is going on? Is this a ploy by Teachers, Professors and the like to be seen as "cool" by students and therefore bypass some hassle that otherwise could be coming at them? What is a white man supposed to do?
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby promethean75 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:49 pm

one of the most difficult things to be in the world today is a white person. there's no doubt about it, bob. especially concerning the issue of racism. what i have found is that in order to clear oneself completely of this scandal, one must hate everyone equally. i have tried and tried to reconcile this matter in a civil way, but no matter what i do, somebody, from one side or another, criticizes me for being insensitive. my white supremacist friends criticize me and my black supremacist friends criticize me. so you know what? you can all kiss my ass. i'm a chinese supremacist now. hail the dragon people!
soundcloud

not sure? ask a Rosa
promethean75
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:10 pm

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Mar 11, 2019 6:19 pm

Bob wrote:Just recently there seems to be a tendency for white academics to come out with claims of systemic racism, accusing themselves of racism as a way of attacking a system which is inherently racist, but letting themselves off the hook by doing that.
https://twitter.com/NEJM/status/1101487253140967430?fbclid=IwAR2ZSXMw7kGbqt4PjRsv3WuzYBLn6LuE2lqWQRDDI662i98HnaUkeLE33Ag

The same has been happening with regard to relations with Trans-People and Gender has become the central issue for some people. As a "white man" I have even been told that my non-racist approach (I don't look for a difference) is also racist because I refuse to see the black man and his struggles.

What is going on? Is this a ploy by Teachers, Professors and the like to be seen as "cool" by students and therefore bypass some hassle that otherwise could be coming at them? What is a white man supposed to do?

The first two responses to that Tweet were interesting.
Imagine guilt is a virus. Guilt doesnt help anything. Remorse can. When you actually realize you did something or even had a vibe of somethign you would not like to repeat, whatever that is. Remorse over that can be useful. Guilt just adds a layer. It does not resolve something. I think there is a vast wave of guilt coming out of the left these days. I am sure there is some real soul searching going on in cases. I am sure some people are confronting themselves in some useful way. baby and bathwater responses are not helpful. I would guess there is a diverse phenomenon happening, at least it seems this way. But part of this seems like a wave of guilt. Walking around feeling like you are a priviledged racist is not something a racist is going to do. So what you have is either people trying to be good or to appear good OR you have people thinking badly of themselves in a way that offers nothing to anyone.

Are the people who are the primary problem here going to scream their mea culpa's....? I doubt it.
Karpel Tunnel
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1595
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby tentative » Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:45 pm

Hi Bob,

I don't think the issue is difficult to understand if you look at it through the lens of identity politics. The easiest and laziest way to put ourselves on the human "map" is to say I'm this or that or something else. The explosion of technological communications has changed the way we look at ourselves. We see peoples all over the world who are very much like ourselves, so who am I? What makes me different than everyone else? We've started losing our identity and something must be done. The people you are asking about have taken the easy way out. Instead of being, they simply claim all the things they are not - without saying what they think they are. No matter what, they are always politically correct. The only label they claim is NOT.

But all of this relies on buying into the labeling game. You must have a label or you will be punished. As you well know, it is one thing to say "I am this" and quite another to simply say "I am". To go beyond labeling is to make yourself a target of all those who claim a label.

I read somewhere that "By their works shall they be known." Wouldn't it be great if we all focused on what a person does and forget all the labeling? OK. It's a comforting pipe dream, but...
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.
 
Posts: 12410
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby Bob » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:23 am

tentative wrote:Hi Bob,

I don't think the issue is difficult to understand if you look at it through the lens of identity politics. The easiest and laziest way to put ourselves on the human "map" is to say I'm this or that or something else. [...]

I read somewhere that "By their works shall they be known." Wouldn't it be great if we all focused on what a person does and forget all the labeling? OK. It's a comforting pipe dream, but...

Hi Tentative,
yes, I'm sure you're right, what hits me most is that there are so many academics who seem to be playing along and even some who are willing to go a step further and claim that they and the system is so flawed that only a rigorous ideology is going to save us.

There are numerous voices that tell us that this is something similar (albeit different subjects) to what people have experienced in Soviet Russia, Mao's China and other ideology run countries. The "Left" is thereby weakening any argument they could have against right-wing policies or any real injustice they may be acting against.

The merit-based society has a lot going for it if it is able to discover the "element" in which individuals thrive. Otherwise, you get people measured by "works" that other people do well, but which isn't their element. With Jesus, the basic requirement was selfless love, but even that can weaken people. I have been told, for example, that I have suffered depression for over twenty years, but somehow always managed to summon up enough willpower to overcome it and function. This only came out after I couldn't move because my body was putting the clamps on me. Turns out, I forgot myself and my element, they said.

I was always someone who spoke out for a meritocracy at work, and of course, that may be a good thing, as long as people are in sync with requirements. I just find that this accusation of systemic "ism" confuses the whole issue and delays any chance of building a society in which children find their "element" before they look for a job. Because then, they can define themselves by what they are, and not by what they are not.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby tentative » Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:53 pm

Bob,

I like your use of the term "element". There are a few bugs in that ointment. As long as there is poverty, and all the disparities between the haves and the have nots, then whence the "element"? But let's assume the element is possible... which element? Who defines that? Isn't the "element" another ideology, another "ism"?

The people who tout systemic failure aren't missing anything. Their answers are mostly wrong, but they at least understand that humanity is out of control. The current move toward authoritarianism is simply a reaction to we're in trouble and Jesus save me! The dilemma is that without population control the results of diminishing resources, climate change, and the endless list of problems will continue until there is a total collapse. I hate doom and gloom, but it is difficult to see a way out of a collapse of human activity. Still, there will be a few "leftovers" and hopefully, they will create new constructions that reject the past (our present) and find a more beneficial way for humans to live. And that, is another comforting pipe dream...
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.
 
Posts: 12410
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby Bob » Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:00 pm

tentative wrote:Bob,

I like your use of the term "element". There are a few bugs in that ointment. As long as there is poverty, and all the disparities between the haves and the have nots, then whence the "element"? But let's assume the element is possible... which element? Who defines that? Isn't the "element" another ideology, another "ism"?

No, in fact, I have taken the term “element” from a fellow Brit, Sir Ken Robinson, who “works with governments, education systems, international agencies, global corporations and some of the world’s leading cultural organizations to unlock the creative energy of people and organizations.“
http://sirkenrobinson.com/about/

The way I think is that the whole western system is formed in the schools. What goes right or what goes wrong starts there. What Sir Ken is saying, especially in his book, "Finding Your Element: How to Discover Your Talents and Passions and Transform Your Life," he talks about people who were on the verge of being thrown out by the system because the system didn't cater for their talents - didn't even discover them. One example is Paul McCartney and George Harrison, who went to the same school and both didn't enjoy music lessons. There are multiple other talents that weren't discovered, and in some cases, even drug-administration was considered.

This way, we are losing huge numbers of people to engage in, and steer the future. Humanities are second-class subjects in school, although these are lessons about what moves us and what can bring us together, despite what we think. This is also a topic that Prof. Peterson speaks on in a similar way to CG Jung. We have managed to throw out key studies about what we dream about, how we tell stories and how we sub-consciously find meaning in the world.

In place of these things, we are putting ideologies, which have failed in the past. Above all, young people are missing real role models, they are missing structure by which they can have some sense of security, and they are becoming confused. Peterson argues, for example, that the role models of our society are found in Christianity, but a Christianity that isn't destroyed by the modernist view, and isn't romanticised by the post-modernists. But also in Greek plays and all forms of mythology, if read as what they are, we can find orientation.

The most worrying aspect of this confusion is that this is taking place in the universities. That is where you find the largest number of people raging against systemic racism and misogyny of all kinds.

The people who tout systemic failure aren't missing anything. Their answers are mostly wrong, but they at least understand that humanity is out of control. The current move toward authoritarianism is simply a reaction to we're in trouble and Jesus save me! The dilemma is that without population control the results of diminishing resources, climate change and the endless list of problems will continue until there is a total collapse. I hate doom and gloom, but it is difficult to see a way out of a collapse of human activity. Still, there will be a few "leftovers" and hopefully, they will create new constructions that reject the past (our present) and find a more beneficial way for humans to live. And that is another comforting pipe dream...

If you look at the books by Steven Pinker, he has been trying to point out that, yes, the enlightenment did give us a big jump ahead, and yes, in comparison, we are better off than our forefathers. The problem is that the constructionist view suggests that everything is just a big construct, and that nothing is reliable.

The problem is, the more you promote insecurity, the more you drive people into the arms of those populists who offer security with their primitive back/white views and simple answers. That is not where we want to go. Thereby, the young, confused students are achieving the opposite of what they want to achieve.
The only wisdom we can hope to acquire
Is the wisdom of humility: humility is endless.
TS Eliot
User avatar
Bob
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3350
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:20 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Systemic Racism?

Postby tentative » Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:31 pm

Bob wrote:
tentative wrote:Bob,

I like your use of the term "element". There are a few bugs in that ointment. As long as there is poverty, and all the disparities between the haves and the have nots, then whence the "element"? But let's assume the element is possible... which element? Who defines that? Isn't the "element" another ideology, another "ism"?

No, in fact, I have taken the term “element” from a fellow Brit, Sir Ken Robinson, who “works with governments, education systems, international agencies, global corporations and some of the world’s leading cultural organizations to unlock the creative energy of people and organizations.“
http://sirkenrobinson.com/about/

The way I think is that the whole western system is formed in the schools. What goes right or what goes wrong starts there. What Sir Ken is saying, especially in his book, "Finding Your Element: How to Discover Your Talents and Passions and Transform Your Life," he talks about people who were on the verge of being thrown out by the system because the system didn't cater for their talents - didn't even discover them. One example is Paul McCartney and George Harrison, who went to the same school and both didn't enjoy music lessons. There are multiple other talents that weren't discovered, and in some cases, even drug-administration was considered.

This way, we are losing huge numbers of people to engage in, and steer the future. Humanities are second-class subjects in school, although these are lessons about what moves us and what can bring us together, despite what we think. This is also a topic that Prof. Peterson speaks on in a similar way to CG Jung. We have managed to throw out key studies about what we dream about, how we tell stories and how we sub-consciously find meaning in the world.

In place of these things, we are putting ideologies, which have failed in the past. Above all, young people are missing real role models, they are missing structure by which they can have some sense of security, and they are becoming confused. Peterson argues, for example, that the role models of our society are found in Christianity, but a Christianity that isn't destroyed by the modernist view, and isn't romanticised by the post-modernists. But also in Greek plays and all forms of mythology, if read as what they are, we can find orientation.

The most worrying aspect of this confusion is that this is taking place in the universities. That is where you find the largest number of people raging against systemic racism and misogyny of all kinds.

The people who tout systemic failure aren't missing anything. Their answers are mostly wrong, but they at least understand that humanity is out of control. The current move toward authoritarianism is simply a reaction to we're in trouble and Jesus save me! The dilemma is that without population control the results of diminishing resources, climate change and the endless list of problems will continue until there is a total collapse. I hate doom and gloom, but it is difficult to see a way out of a collapse of human activity. Still, there will be a few "leftovers" and hopefully, they will create new constructions that reject the past (our present) and find a more beneficial way for humans to live. And that is another comforting pipe dream...

If you look at the books by Steven Pinker, he has been trying to point out that, yes, the enlightenment did give us a big jump ahead, and yes, in comparison, we are better off than our forefathers. The problem is that the constructionist view suggests that everything is just a big construct, and that nothing is reliable.

The problem is, the more you promote insecurity, the more you drive people into the arms of those populists who offer security with their primitive back/white views and simple answers. That is not where we want to go. Thereby, the young, confused students are achieving the opposite of what they want to achieve.


Perhaps I'm off in a different direction. There is no way to not embrace an ideology or ism. Nurture guarantees that we accept the ideology(s) we are raised in from birth. I guess I'm a sort of constructionist. Yes, everything is a construct where nothing is reliable. But that isn't a negative POV. Rather, it the realization that all the constructs ARE the source of insecurity and that frees the individual to find and dwell in their "element". It is true that very few ever manage to poke their heads through the ceiling of ideology and isms and the path is an arduous journey, but it the necessary step if one is to ever find their "element".

I could add numerous references, particularly in eastern philosophies, but I've babbled enough for the time being...
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
tentative
.
 
Posts: 12410
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:14 pm
Location: Idaho


Return to Current Events



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users