Top Ten List

Iam - you are a master at changing the focus or scope of an argument (or even a mere claim). It’s almost Bill O’Reilly-like. Albeit that O’Reilly uses it to win an argument, not to lose one.

Whatever you think of me, you will either focus in on a particular context in which to explore your top ten list or you won’t. Abortion works for me because 1] it is an issue that most will be familiar with and 2] it literally revolves around the question of life and death.

If you’d like we can create a new thread for it.

If nothing else, I’m curious to see how you connect the dots between abortion and, “There are almost certainly events that cause other events, but there seem to be uncaused causes. Sometimes, things are the way they seem.”

The evolution of life on earth [eventually] begets human beings. Human beings have sex and this can beget pregnancies. Unwanted pregnancies can beget abortions. Abortions can beget conflicting goods. Conflicting goods can beget political narratives.

Where do “uncaused causes” fit in here? And, with respect to the moral and political parameters of abortion, when are things “the way they seem”?

Or was your intent here all basically just tongue in cheek? :wink:

I was joking. Not about the list, but that they were all about abortion. Morality belongs to political science. It always has. Since at least The Republic.

Okay, let’s take your list to the Society, Government, and Economics board then. And, sure, fuck abortion this time. You choose the conflicting moral narratives, you choose the context.

I see no reason to remove to any other board. Epistemology has always been used to justify morality, which has always been a component of politics. The Ten Commandments was a political statement. There was no distinction between morality and law - the TC was part of the law. Plato tried to establish that virtuous philosophers were the model for morality and went as far as to used the city of Athens as the model for virtue. The city that was run by virtuous people, if not always by philosophers.

It’s all the same thing.

In modern america, there is disagreement about the morality of abortion, but the virtuous Supreme Court allows it, under certain circumstances, which is not a novel idea.

The question has rarely been “Is abortion wrong?” but “what kind of abortions are wrong and how wrong are they?”

God saw all of this, while he existed.

Okay, but with respect to what moral issue in what political context? Trump’s wall? Obamacare? The Second amendment? Conscription? The death penalty? Homosexuality? Animal rights? Gender roles?

Particular people claim to know particular things about particular moral and political issues. About what is or is not said to be virtuous. Where does philosophy fit in here? What are the practical limitations embedded in the tools epistemologists use to assess what either can or cannot be known about them?

And soon [perhaps] a new virtuous Supreme Court will not allow it here in America. Okay, Mr. Ethicist, some then interject, which virtue ought it to be?

Here of course I interject and note the components of my own frame of mind: dasein, conflicting goods and political economy. In a No God world awash in contingency, chance and change. A world in which new experiences, relationships and access to ideas, can reconfigure “I” here into an “existential contraption”.

Depends on who you discuss this with. For some all abortions are wrong. For others it’s abortion on demand. The objectivists on both ends of the political spectrum. Some re God, some re Reason [political ideology or deontological assessments], some re Nature.

And the more ambiguous it gets – which abortions are wrong and when? – the more the best of all possible worlds would seem to revolve around moderation, negotiation and compromise.

Only here I have thought my way down into a hole. This one:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values “I” can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction…or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then “I” begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

My only recourse then being discussions like this one in which I encounter the narratives [behaviors] of those not down in that hole.

Philosophy fits in exactly where i just said it does. The practical limitations on epistemologists are that what they are doing is impractical.

Of course there are those who can draw a thick, impenetrable line between right and wrong, but they still lie along a spectrum. And they may still assess differing penalties for not following the rule, which modifies what would otherwise be an absolute position.

No one can “reach” objective values. That is a hoax. And you might have gone in another direction even if there were. You continually manufacture, out of whole cloth, a problem that does’t exist. You simply are afraid of the freedom to choose that you have. Not that there aren’t consequences for our actions. But these are societal. Don’t ever confess to a murder. Unless they have you anyway.

no it’s not that. biggy got over that kierkegaardian anxiety and dizziness of freedom decades ago, so that’s not the problem. i’ll tell you what the problem is; biggy is suffering from PTFD (post traumatic forum disorder). i don’t know if any of you folks know about his history, but biggy served two tours of duty at a yahoo group called ‘the philosophy cafe’ which was run by a mexican kantian objectivist defense attorney named friedrich. and this guy led a platoon of objectivists of all stripes… half of em had fucking philosophy degrees. you can’t imagine the hell biggy was in, and why he had to become an animal to survive. i was there and saw the whole thing go down, man. it was vietnam all over again for this dude, and folks need to understand what that can do to a man. it’s in his blood, he’s a trained objectivist killer, and anyone who so much as whispers anything about an ‘objective value’ is in grave danger around this guy. this isn’t something he can just choose to let go of. therapy? we tried that. guess what happened. he ruined the therapist. the guy quit his practice, sold the business, and moved to some convent in south america.

the only thing you can do is avoid engaging him and hope he doesn’t hunt you down. since the objectivist slaughter of 2002 at the philosophy cafe, he’s gone rogue like the others in his squad, and despite my attempts to bring him home, he refuses to cooperate. i tried my best to reassemble the team, to no avail. this was my last transmission with him.

Promethean, all well and good. It’s abundantly clear that iam’s problem is not philosophical.

Maine Man

Yeah, this sounds “deep”. But until we take these words down to earth and situate them in a particular context, we won’t be able to grasp how “for all practical purposes” they are relevant to the lives that we actually live.

Did folks invent philosophy all those years ago so that flesh and blood human beings could grasp only the “technical” aspects of human language/communication: “reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.”

Or [sooner or later] would this technically correct knowledge have to confront those “strict principles of validity” that revolve [existentially] around assesments of “I” out in a world of conflicting goods rooted in one or another extant configuration of political economy.

Yes, but this spectrum is no less situated out in a particular world historically, culturally and experientially. And the rules of behavior that are chosen are, in my view, no less the embodiment of dasein, conflicting goods and political economy.

So, imagine then someone who professes to be a “serious philosopher”. What “technically” can she tell us about these flesh and blood interactions when they come into conflict over value judgments? How would she assess each point on your list above as they are pertinent in a particular context?

You can’t possibly know this. Not until you are able to grasp an understanding of the existence of existence itself. There may well be a God. There may well be a correct deontological assessment of human interactions. There may well be an optimal political ideology. There may well be an entirely coherent assessment of Nature.

I’m not arguing that the problem exists for all of us. Only that “here and now” it exists for “I” out in this particular world.

And to avoid this “whole cloth” I ask others to bring their own moral narratives out into a particular context in which we can explore the extent to which there might in fact exist a Real Me in sync with The Right Thing To Do.

They don’t exist for me. But only “here and now”.

First, of course, we don’t even know for certain if this freedom is not just a psychological illusion. This entire exchange may well be just a necessary component in/of a wholly determined universe.

And, sure, if you want to argue that this is all about me being afraid of freedom, so be it.

We simply construe the meaning of “I” as an “existential contraption” here in different ways. Trump isn’t afraid to build his wall and others aren’t afraid to oppose him.

But how on earth might that not still be understood given the components of own frame of mind – as a moral nihilist.

Just because one is not afraid to choose does not make the choice itself able to be confirmed by “serious philosophers” as that which all rational men and women are obligated to choose in turn.

Especially when confronting serious philosophers who are as well conflicted regarding what is said to be the right thing to do.

Wow, I almost believe this myself! :wink:

Just as it is abundantly clear [to me] that you are unwilling to take that which you construe to be “serious philosophy” down out of the technical clouds and situate it out in a world bursting at the seams with all manner of actual social, political and economic interactions.

And, in particular, at the intersection of identity, value judgments and political power.

Starting with the points you raise on the list above.

It’s just that even here I am willing to acknowledge this too as just another “existential contraption”. I have no capacity [philosophical or otherwise] to demonstrate that others ought to think like this.

Again, going all the way back to a complete understanding of the existence of existence itself.

Who, in god’s name, is “we”?

No, I don’t think so. But what has any of that to do with what I am saying? You think it’s all fucked up that we can’t know whether or not abortion is wrong, ever since god died. I’m telling you that even when god was alive this was usually all fucked up. Even the catholics used to allow for grey areas. Read some history. Read Roe v. Wade, for that matter.

No offense, brotherman, but this makes absolutely no sense. If there is no “I” there is no logic to begin with.

Of course it’s situated in “a” particular world - the world itself. The only world there is. I don’t know who you are arguing with here, but it is not me.

This is about where you usually go off the rails. Philosophers use a “technique” in reasoning. So, a valid argument is “technical”. So… what can a philosopher “technically” tell us. You’re confounding technique with substance, form and function. It’s like you read what I write, what other people write, through Google Translate. You almost certainly are doing this deliberately. Ignoring an argument is not winning one.

I can if “to know objective values” makes no literal sense. That’s the big secret that you and objectivists are equally unaware of.

You and I. Or any others here who wish to intertwine the words that serious philosophers use in their disciplined technical discussions with their actual experiences with others out in a world teeming with conflicting goods.

All this demonstrates [to me] is that with respect to morality, you and I are both inclined to focus in on those grey areas. But they can be grappled with either intellectually or existentially. Though most are still inclined to embrace morality objectively. With or without God.

And even “fucked up” is an existential contraption. For some it is precisely those grey areas that allow them considerably more options in choosing behaviors. The objectivists either do the right thing or they don’t.

But few folks here are inclined to explore the possibility that, with regard to conflicting goods, being down in a “hole” is actually a reasonable frame of mind. Let alone that in examining them it is analogous to “ever-changing NFL rules”.

Or that construing “I” as “fractured and fragmented” may in turn be a reasonable perspective given the manner in which I have come to understand the “self” in the is/ought world.

But: Only when language like this is embodied existentially [contextually] are we likely to sustain exchanges that have any practical usefulness in our lives. And this is either important to us or it’s not.

I’m making a distinction between I in the either/or world in which “strict principles of validity” are anchored to, among other things, mathematics, the laws of nature and objective empirical facts, and “I” in the is/ought world where countless objectivists have insisted that their own moral and political narratives are, in turn, anchored to “strict principles of validity”.

Those “strict principles of validity” begin to crumble and “I” as an existential contraption is more readily appreciated. Well, by some of us.

Logic is applicable to all of us. But there are any number of human interactions in which logic is only useful up to a point.

Come on, we all live in a particular world called planet Earth. But each and everyone of us experience this world such that there are endless conflicts regarding what is said to be or not to be true about it.

My own assessment of it revolves the components I note above. And, so, what I deem to be a reasonable set of behaviors [here and now] is derived from them. But what about others? Do they take into account those components themselves. Yes? No? Okay, let’s shift the discussion to a particular context. Let’s take the words out into the world.

Okay, but there is still that gap between what serious philosophers tell us about logic, rational thought, epistemologically sound assessments etc., and the extent to which they can show why/how all of this is relevant to human interactions that, in regard to what is of interest to me, come into conflict over value judgments.

Technique and substance, form and function in regard to what particular set of circumstances?

And the arguments I tend to ignore are those that stay up in the clouds. And, by and large, in my own opinion, yours certainly do.

Again: What on earth does something like this mean? No “literal sense” in regard to what?

What does it mean to grapple existentially? You seem to be saying that moral judgements cannot be generalized. They certainly can, but one can go too far with that. But no amount of generalization produces an absolute truth. Generalization is something we can do, but not something the world does.

The laws of nature are just as human as any other idea. There are no objective empirical facts, because the idea of objectivity is a stupidity. What would an objective fact be? Something we observe with our human senses or identify with our human brains?

“Principles of validity” which means rules of logic or it doesn’t mean anything, do not crumble. These are simply a method to remain consistent in our claims. Those claims take a certain form and it is this form that “validity” applies to. The validity is baked into the language cake. They concern what we can say and cannot say, that is all. The world at large has no effect on them, nor the other way 'round. It’s just language. Logic is relevant to a certain kind of human actions - claims to truth. Nothing else. It’s pretty simple.

Objectivists, if I understand the term, are merely lost in the shadow of the Ontological Argument, are merely making an appeal to authority.

“to know objective values” makes no sense. To make that claim, to know objective anything, is neither true nor false. It is not a claim at all. It’s nonsense. The term “Objective truth” is likewise nonsense. No one would know an “objective truth” if it bit them in the ass. What form would this truth take and how would we know?

“Truth” is the most abused word in philosophy. Everyone knows what it means, until they read a philosopher. When they stop reading, they know again. That should tell philosophers something.

Again, to make an argument/assessment like this more clearly understood, we need to focus in on a actual context. What moral judgments regarding what conflicting goods? The truth about what in particular?

There are things in our lives that we don’t grapple with. Things able to easily be demonstrated as essentially true for all of us. Let’s call this the either/or world.

For example, the state of Texas executes death row prisoners. Is the fact of this something that generates heated discussions? Or here are the facts the facts? Of course: the facts speak for themselves.

Instead, I consture people “grappling existentially” when the discussion shifts to the morality of capital punishment. Why? Two reasons:

1] “I” here is largely an existential contraption. So much of what we come to believe is right and wrong is rooted in the actual trajectory of our lived experiences.
2] there are reasonable arguments able to be made by those from both ends of the political spectrum. There does not appear to be a way for “serious philosophers” to concoct something in the way of a deontological obligation here on the part of all rational human beings.

So, what particular moral judgements can be generalized here in what particular context? Regarding, say, the next prisoner to be executed in Texas. What facts can we all agree on here…facts that are likely to come as close as mere mortals are able to get to the “absolute truth”. In a No God world.

Sure, until we are able to grasp ontologically [teleologically?] a complete understanding of existence itself, who is really able to say what an objective fact is. But human brains are able to grasp cognitively the reality of executions in Texas and any number of folks can attest to what their senses encompassed while witnessing them.

Again, this appears to be as close to the objective truth as mere mortals are likely to get. And, of course, we have to live with that. Just as we have to take our existential leap to autonomy or determinism even regarding this exchange itself.

Ever and always up on the skyhooks. Imagine taking this “general description” assessment to folks outside the Huntsville Unit when a particularly newsworthy execution is about to take place. Imagine their reaction to it. One of them looks at you and says, “so that’s what serious philosophy is!”

So, in my view, what becomes most crucial here is drawing the line [in particular contexts] between that which logic appears most applicable to and that which it appears to be least applicable to when the language being communicated confronts conflicted goods embedded in issues like capital punishment.

Indeed. And that authority is either God, political ideology, Reason [deontological intellectual contraptions] or assessments of Nature.

Nonsense or not what doesn’t go away is the fact that, if we choose to interact with others socially, politically and economically, we need to establish rules of behavior that come as close as we possibly can to one or another rendition of the objective truth.

Just watch the news from day to day. This happens all the time. After all, is there actually a recourse?

On the news though we bump into those that I construe to be objectivists all the time. Their own moral and political narratives are deemed to be just one more manifestation of the either/or world.

Sigh…

What truth regarding what interactions in what particular context? All we can do as mere mortals in a [presumed] No God world is to grapple with all that we think we know about the truth there and then deal with those who insist that what they think they know is actually the truth instead.

Then [politically] it’s one or another combination of might makes right, right make might or moderation, negotiation and compromise.

Yo, Faust, are you still inclined to bring this list “down to earth”? :-k

Iamb man you ruined the shit out of it.
I mean they could handle the horde, somewhat. But then your lugubrious dishonesty on top, naw mayne. Naw.

Classic Jakobean retort!

In other words [sigh] what on earth [or what the fuck] does it mean?

“Handle the horde”? “lugubrious dishonesty”? Or is sounding “deep” as far as it ever goes with you?

And let’s not abandon this thread, my friend: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=194769

As, apparently, Faust has abandoned this one. :wink: