Top Ten List

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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:38 pm

Anyway, I'm using dialectics now. that must somehow mean I've been defeated.

I like the points you make and how you make them, so I'm sort of beyond caring now whether I'm right that you were wrong. So sue me.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:41 pm

Ok, let me gather myself here.

The question here, as postulated by Faust, I believe, is is science about epistemology? Knowing something directly about the world? If not, it must be about consensus.

And it cannot be, because there is no link between what things are and how words came to be.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:41 pm

And obviously im more than totally happy that you disagree with me here. If anything ever spoke for itself....
Just expressing my utter disdain for postmodernism and any type of consensus based "decisions".

It would be less offensive to suggest that Caesar made his strategic decisions based on consensus. And that is already beyond offensive.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:43 pm

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Ok, let me gather myself here.

The question here, as postulated by Faust, I believe, is is science about epistemology? Knowing something directly about the world? If not, it must be about consensus.

And it cannot be, because there is no link between what things are and how words came to be.


Ah, yeah, I certainly disagee with that. Science is only about how things work. You know science, you can build a weapon. Or a medicine. Its only about directly about the world. Postmodernism is the other thing.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:43 pm

Out for some tea.

Glad to be disagreeing with you on something.

There aint no bridge here.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:45 pm

I can only admit defeat, as I see my shtick getting sloppy.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:51 pm

You can defeat a man, but you cannot defeat reasonable acquiescence of a properly formulated philosophical postulation!
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Mon Feb 04, 2019 8:59 pm

I will say, you called me an elitist, and by exention a collectivist.

Consuensus only matters when there is no collective, when understanding between individuals is concerned.

What you call consensus is not consensus, it is obedience, accepting some shit because some dude said it and not because you ever even pondered whether it makes sense.

There were no consensi between Church authorities. Just factions with more or less power to impose their made up shit.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Faust » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:56 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:Ok, let me gather myself here.

The question here, as postulated by Faust, I believe, is is science about epistemology? Knowing something directly about the world? If not, it must be about consensus.

And it cannot be, because there is no link between what things are and how words came to be.


Science is about a lot of things. We seem to have a lot of direct information about the world - at least a lot for humans. Seems like a lot to me. We use science to "see" things that are not so suitable to direct observation, even if science requires direct observation. Science is "about" predictions. We probably know pathetically little about how the world works. But that's not a complaint or a reason not to learn.

Epistemology is about things we cannot discern directly, or with science, or any other fucking way except with our "minds". Yeah, right. Belief is justified by the results. Done and done.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:01 pm

I will admit victory.


Ill stress one thing Weary Locomotive told me once long ago.
the only knowledge that matters is method. His emphasis.

The thing most 20th centuriers get wrong;
Science isnt about theory, but about practice.

String theory isnt science. Even the hypothesis for its experimentation would require a universe ten times the mass of whats estimated to be that of ours. The power of transmutation of the elements is science. Thats a method.

If a theory doesnt provide a method to new objectively verifiable powers (such as nuclear weapons), it isnt science.

If consensus has anything to do with science it is that people will be forced to agree with its existence if it is employed to coerce or seduce them. But certainly their (mis)understanding of or (dis)agreement with the Vision of which each scientific conception consists, is immaterial.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:15 pm

Ah, so I see why people can think consensus is at the basis of science -- they see an army of superior technology invading their livelihood and then assume the consensus fearsomely arising about the power being real was at the origin of that power itself. It is a way of people without science in their repertoire to identify with it. But consensus comes after the fact, and often enough it doesnt come at all because the facts are just too powerful.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:37 pm

In the tranquility of knowing myself among some cool minds,

Science originates in the seeing beyond appearances.
I would testify that appearance is the consensus, the consensus is an agreement about appearances, to the end of regulating them, shaping them along the lines of the majority of instincts.

Science is the magma rumbling below the surface produced by the tectonic suffering of different fundamental truths colliding. When a scientific vision penetrates the surface and shares the world of appearances, it does so with a thundering violence, eclipsing in smoke whatever it doesnt subsume or annihilate. The consensus is that something just happened because some weirdo did some science. The path between the idea and the experience of its implementation is fraught with consensus and counter consensus. But the idea is never really fully conceded to; science is never finished. There is only one science, the one that started for real with Archimedes. The physical apprehension of proportional physical relation, the proof of causation.

When the smoke clears long after the event and the dead cities are excavated, the knowledge of the power that caused all this becomes embedded in the world in a small group of committed investigators. These would be in government or corporate service most of the time yet qua their scientific powers always have some autonomy. Secret services have as their primary objective to keep a check on whatever science is out there, and take stakes in the powers that are emitted by it, indifferent to human value judgments. It is the science that is the value and Intelligence is the quest of being worthy of whatever powers the scientific genius unleashes on the consensus-seeking world of appearances.

Finally, after the powers have been put into play between the adequate political powers, the weird phenomena that took such great tolls in the past are explained through slow dissemination of the science into scientific magazines, newspapers, and school books. This process then slowly informs and empowers a population into a consensus about the usefulness and decency of the powers. But very few people will ever understand the general theory of Relativity, and those that come close to understanding it tend to be heavily entrenched in disagreements. As can be enjoyed right here on ilp. Which isnt as bad as I say.

I was afraid I was going to get more condescending sloppiness. But there are some real gentlemen here.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:44 pm

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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:15 am

Some...

some opinions:

There is intuition. Intuition can be about things unrelated to what I believe to concede are those magmic collisions to enough of an extent that they will never be of interest to what is called science, and it can be an enthralling kind of violent acquaintance with some of those magmicisms like why Newton was kind of insane at the same time.

Those intuitions be.

But appearences, that is where those intuitions become science at all. That it is apearently true that water displacement has to do with unavoidable, ever repeatable occurances. Only when appearance comes in, does it be science, which does not disclude the intuition and contact with the enlightninging thralling collusions, but does simply addition itself to it to make up what scicence be. When it begins to matter that it is science, and when weapons and such begin to be able to be produced by means.

The relationship between the intuition I speak and the appearent, since appearance is an observing action, a thing can be reproduced in different individuals, it already being involved in interpretation , and since interpretations can vary widely and one has to be agreed on for a formulation, even upon such a shakingly involved in material unavoidablenesses, to be able to be said to appear or relate to appearance such that repeatability can be practiceable, consensus is required for the very existence of science.

The observer, so to speak, is already guilty.

Why not? We are being honest and laying things to bear: I believe Nietzsche cracked open the thing that comes before and opened the world to a heretofore unimagined universe. But that is beside the point of science, though not beside the point of why it might matter to agree on where it is science starts and... well other things...

So long as we all stand against Nazis. All other mistakes can be accepted. Civility does matter if we are to agree to no tyrant.

Or like Faust said, some shit about morality my love of Nietzsce prevents me from fully repeating. But, among Gentlemen, even defeat is good.

even defeat is good.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:26 pm

But what you call intuition I call thought.
I said vision which is how thought plays out when it comes to how things work, what is really, or reallier, there. What is always present behind appearances and accounts for them and gives power to cause them. "Magic", speechless consent, but no consensus in speech.

Seeing beneath the surface means being able to predict what will become apparent, and as it appears to be able to see appearance as being an appearance, emitted from slower, more pervasive things that one sees, not intuits but witnesses in operation.

It requires a span of some seconds of suspension perpetually, a lot of Delta waves, a day for a thought. Rainy days in stone rooms are the happiest.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:41 pm

Every meaning is a particular thing. But science has no meaning. This is why this consensus thing is just not correct.
It is true that some scientists build on the observations of other scientists, but the fact that their angle on that ancient work clicks in some way that works to create magic is based on strict defiance of what has been the consensus. Science is transgressive. Consent always eventually follows any rupture, but do you therefore define the rupture as consensus?

I do not deny that consensus is what the scientific community strives for. I am fairly certain it wont ever be attained. Einstein didnt even understand Relativity himself, because otherwise he would have seen the necessity of unvertainty - and there will never be consensus about the most astute sciences, as these are simply too precious and too dangerous to share. But that doesnt mean it doesnt work, or isnt used.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:43 pm

Science is always a primordial crime, as Zizek was always on about in terms of politics and philosophy.
Technology is a crimescene.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:13 pm

I read you as writing about what is. I am concerned with what matters. And I believe what matters determines what is.

Why I was never afraid of transgenetic bullshit or machine-brain supplantation or virtual/extended/modified reality.

I think Bob Marley may have been onto this, or at least was able to listen to a Muse as she mentioned it, when he wrote Have no fear of atomic energy None of them can stop the (tide/time, I'm never sure).

If I know what matters, I really don't have to give a shit about what is. What is will come to me. I actually even am kinda sure that was Archimides's approach.

I can read minds, I guess is the short way of saying it.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 pm

Or A.I.. Specially A.I.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:15 pm

Lol.

That's not where the treasure is.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:28 pm

Lol, I'm realizing now that it's a pretty rude position I've taken.

But, you know, it's a pretty good list Faust came up with. It deserves the outmost arrogance.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:31 pm

I think I bested alchemists when they say "as above, so below" with "what's on the outside is what's on the inside."
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:04 am

Pedro I Rengel wrote:I think I bested alchemists when they say "as above, so below" with "what's on the outside is what's on the inside."
Yeah, their version and one going way back is..
as within so without, as above, so below...
revinventing the wheel.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby Pedro I Rengel » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:15 am

Ah, I didn't best them then. It was just intuition of the part I hadn't heard.

Unexpected knowledge from such a... Classical lefty... Come now...

They don't teach that in University, do they?

I'll give it to them though, that's pretty clever of them.

But wait actually. AS within SO without is not the same as what's on the inside is what's on the outside. I didn't say the same as. I said is.

There seems to me to be an important distinction there.
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Re: Top Ten List

Postby barbarianhorde » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:22 pm

Yes, alchemists tend to be arrogant.
But to call Faust an alchemist is a bit indecent, I think.

But we agree then that there is no one on one correspondence between appearances and scientific Vision.

Your rude stance was just that of any layman approaching a specialised field with enthusiasm.

As above... so not quite now above... because "below" (*cough*)
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