Have you leaned what Jesus and your bible teaches?


Greatest I
am wrote:

Satan’s first two lies spoken to humankind, namely: “You shall not surely die,” and “You will be like God
The twin lies of human divinity and immortality have been Satan’s foundation for his counterfeit religion throughout the ages.

I don’t see that as necessarily hatred. It’s a criticism, sure.

Even less here. Again, a criticism.

Is that hatred?

I’ve shown you quite a while ago that one of the gnostics you quoted had supernatural beliefs. Even the notion of the Demiurge has supernatural interpretations.

The quotes you had about Gnostics not believing in the supernatural have to do with NOT hating the material. It is not mutually exclusive believing in what gets called the supernatural and accepting, loving what is called material.

Again, I don’t see how this takes a stand on the supernatural.

I also notice that you quote from the NT to support the idea that Jesus hated people. But the NT has supernatural events in it involving Jesus, which you did not respond to.

I do not think the NT was intended as a myth.

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Origen believed in the pre-existence of souls. For example.

Well, they are quoting from the NT which has stories told about hte miracles of Jesus. And these are not told in the mythical form of most cultures, even the OT’s genesis. They are talking about a guy, over here, walking around, who he knew, what he did, and then a miracle happens.

Compare that to Greek myths or any cultures myths. It is an entirely different kind of text. Which doesn’t mean I think that Jesus was X or not X. I am just pointing out that 1) Gnostics have a variety of beliefs, some supernatural. Some gnostics, it seems, will then say, those guys are not real gnostics. Fine, Christianty and other religions are littered with this kind inter-sect criticism. 2) Jesus predominantly focuses on forgiveness and love.

The Bible teaches us to accept the truth of scripture, the teachings of Christ, and your imperfect human nature in relation to God’s plan (law and prophecies in history). Not sure where to find its emphasis on starting from the bottom and becoming like God. Shieldmaden is right, our souls and impressions of personality on future generations may be immortal, but humans are not immortal. Nor can we speak or understand God the way you seem to think we can, only the other way around, as God is the Lord of language and breathes his message through us.

I’m sure Satan, when he was Lucifer, thought of himself as one with God, being just as or more powerful than God. That is his greatest deception, through Pride and Envy, and later on, hatred. Jesus barely mentions his hate, maybe his disgust towards the places of Baal and Moloch, and shows brief instances of temper because of a defiling of the Church.

You are presenting the same links and evidence as in other threads for your personal God complex, without demonstrating any knowledge of scripture and faith in Jesus Christ’s teachings. You should be more careful comparing Christianity with Hinduism, as well as showing your blatant disgust towards some of the doctrines of Jesus Christ. The marriage example is funny, especially when comparing the Hindu’s doctrines of marriage to Christ’s. If I am to do unto others as I would have them do to myself, I would tell you to keep reading and reaching for deeper levels of faith than this Gnosticism you’re so obsessed with.

You yourself seem to be starting out with a lie as you twist the word to what you want them to say and not what they say.

That is just pure opinion of course and not seen as a fact to all.

You will be like God sure sounds ok when God says that A & E did become like Gods. You call what God confirmed a lie.

Why is your view not like your God’s?

Regards
DL

Hogwash on this last.

There were hundreds of Mystery schools and to think that none of them investigated the imaginary realm of the supernatural, would be silly.

It is not surprising as well, given that we lost the God wars to the inquisitions, that theists do not recognize that they have been spoon fed a falsified history by religious Christian liars.

You look to the past to see what an evolving religion was, while not wanting to believe what a modern Gnostic Christian is telling you of what we have evolved into.

Change that mindset, please, or we will just be word fighting instead of having a meaningful dialog.

Regards
DL

I pulled these out after choking on them.

Only a goof would first say that there is truth in scriptures, while ignoring where God puts lies in the prophets and Jesus constantly is telling us to find truth outside of the Christian doctrine.

You are one of the people Jesus spoke of who hinder the seeking whom Jesus told to seek within themselves for the truth of God.

Get thee behind me. Satan.

You also insult God’s creative power in making our demonstrably perfect human natures.

Regards
DL

Greatest wrote:

Where exactly in the Scriptures does it say this?

Feel free to demonstrate this.

INcluding one of the people you quoted. IOW your own demonstrations depend on support from people who believed in the supernatural and this undermines your position.

There are Christians who recognize this but are not gnostics. It’s actually complicated, however troubling that might be for people who want it neat and binary

I am disagreeing with points you make because they are not presenting a correct, more complicated image of, in this case, amongst other things, Jesus as presented in the Bible. And you still fail to respond to the specific points made.

Sure, it might be nice if we could just order other people around to change their minds, but I live in the real world.

Don’t call me a goof when you’re afraid of matter. Stop enshrouding yourself in the idea that knowledge is above morality. If it wasn’t for the Judeo-Christian movements, you would have no literature to base your beliefs on because your ideas wouldn’t have flourished. It seems to be a way to pervert the scriptures through offering secret knowledge. I’m interested in studying how the antithetical ideas flourished during the first few centuries, those defined heretical, because there’s something seriously wrong with these supernatural magical obsessors who are into rituals, angelic rankings, and ‘spirituality’ (kabbalah, hermeticism, gnosticism). Something slithered into early Christian movements through Rome, originating in a human lust for power by offering secret knowledge and practices, ancient snake oil salesmen.

What would Irenaeus and Polycarp think of you?

Is there no truth in the migration of Hyksos semites into Egypt? This was mentioned in the Bible early on in differing language, but of course literal interpretations and transliterations have affected your interpretative abilities of the text, that’s not my fault. Is there some truth in scripture for Gnostics? A lot of truth? Or no truth? Or is it all true? You have some serious explaining to do, especially with that remark of our ‘demonstrably perfect’ human natures.

Dualism and manichaeism haven’t always sat well with me. All things are parts of a whole, not a mere merism, more Platonic than Aristotelian. We access the whole but can’t define it with contrasts and extremes.

who’s bible? what makes it mine, even paradoxically? When I’ve wanted to read it I’ve gone on line and borrowed it, there are a lot of translations on line. I’m hardly fluent in the language it was written in. So who’s bible is it again?

At the end of Gen 3. It is not a long story.

Regards
DL

If you have done all that reading and cannot speak to what Jesus taught -----

Regards
DL

Quite the assumption. Why would I fear matter?
That would be stupid seeing as I have to eat to live and like to eat matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]”
“If those who attract you say, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, ‘It is under the earth,’ then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.”

As you can see from that quote, if we see God’s kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don’t see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

Quite the assumption. Why would I fear matter?
That would be stupid seeing as I have to eat to live and like to eat matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.
The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, “Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]”
“If those who attract you say, ‘See, the Kingdom is in the sky,’ then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, ‘It is under the earth,’ then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty.”

As you can see from that quote, if we see God’s kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don’t see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

You ignore that most sages, including Jesus, had one line for the sheeple and another secret one for the apostles.

I too like to look at the history of religions as I seek to know how the world ended in preferring the genocidal son murderer over more moral Gods.

To your first sentence. I do not as knowledge is not above morality as they are not on the same graph. Knowledge is either true or not.

Morality is subjective and not objective and cannot be said to be true or not based on some knowledge.

Regards
DL

Could you explain how entropy and the anthropic principle lead to this being the only possible world and the best world. And isn’t the anthropic principle in the realm of supernatural ideas? I mean, it’s teleology.

It is science that recognizes that the time line only flows the one way.

If you deny the conditions that got us to this point in time, then there is nothing I can say.

What is, has to be, given our history.

If your parents had not mated at exactly the time they did, you would not be here.

Regards
DL

Yup. Though entropy doesn’t make this any more true or less obvious. And it has nothing to do with the anthropic principle.

I do not see the conflict between those ideas. I would not think many would have a belief in a multi-verse though as those theories have yet to be proven. Strangely, the math works for both a 9 and 12 dimension models where multiverses and branes would exist.

If this is the only possible world, which it is and must be given our past, then it is obviously the best of all possible world that there can be if we ignore our wish lists for better. Those wishes can only aply to the future and not the past. We can aim for better but must also recognize that we are at our best possible starting point at all points in time.

Yup. Though entropy doesn’t make this any more true or less obvious. And it has nothing to do with the anthropic principle.
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You would be, if you are at all, would be in a completely different time line, and I do think that that fact is rather obvious. Change any one thing in your past and you change all of your history.

Regards
DL

Well, if there is a multiverse than our world, our lives, our experience, is just one possibility amongst an infinite number.

But many do, many because it is way of retaining determinism. Further there is evidence, just not confirmation.

I’m still not seeing the anthropic principle brought in.

Yup. Though entropy doesn’t make this any more true or less obvious. And it has nothing to do with the anthropic principle.
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Sure, but that has nothing to do with entropy or the anthropic principle. It does have to do with determinism or saying that we are affected by changes - so identity type issues or causation.

It doesn’t have anything to do with the 2nd law of thermodynamics - except that I am in this universe and the 2nd law has to do with this universe - or with the anthropic principle.

And nothing in science, so far, justifies value judgments.