Something Instead of Nothing

I can only curse my unlucky stars that this post is only as it ever could have been. :banana-dance:

For you? None. For everyone else? Tons.

Sure you do. You just don’t like. So you block it out.

I haven’t quite grasped what you’re ultimate aim in pursuing this all-encompassing determinism is, but given your interest in bringing the topic to the lives and struggles of human beings competing with each other and making moral judgement on each other, I’m going to guess that you want to prove to the world that no one is at fault for anything… ever… and thereby undermine all moral judgements. And here I come with my proposal of alternate meanings of freedom and ruin everything. How can no one be at fault for anything if yet another form of freedom rears its ugly head, a form by which we can continue to make moral judgements?

^ That’s your motive, I believe, and so the only form of freedom you’ll accept is the impossible kind.

I think you like it that way.

Prove it to me. The next time you remind us that you do or say or think X because you could never have not done or said or thought X, try coupling that with a statement underscoring what you would do if free will were real. You can begin with “On the other hand…” But I’ll bet my children’s education fund, I’ll never see you say it.

Ah, but… are we attempting to come to grips with this because we are freely choosing to? Or is it because we could never have not attempted to come to grips with it?

And BTW, why are you agreeing with me? What happened to the gap between what you think you know “in your head” and all that would be needed to know in order to say for sure what we are attempting to come to grips with?

If my answer to that question is the only answer I was ever able to give, what would be the point in giving it?

Not really.

We’re all human, Biggy, and I think we’d all take comfort in knowing that we’ll be taken care of by a benevolent God after we die, but there are some things we cling to more than hope in a blissful afterlife. Stakes in an argument, for example. You’ve clung to your nihilistic position for so long, and spoke in defence of it so many times, I think at this point, you’d prefer to be right despite knowing the implications that has for your “I”.

A lot more than you’re allowing for.

That doesn’t sound too peaceful. If I may suggest, maybe it’s just not having to be confused by how the world works. I have an understanding of how the world works on a fundamental metaphysical level. I may be right, I may be wrong. But once engraved into my mind, how can I undo this understanding? And why would I? Just for the sake of taking the hard road? Of being tormented by confusion and existential angst? ← No thanks.

Not if you understand what it’s saying.

And again, the feeling of freedom is no more an illusion than a dark room is the illusion of emptiness.

The advantage of compatibilism is that you actually can say that. You phrase it: “I could have chosen different, if I wanted to.”–the catch being that your wanting to is the determining force that decides your choosing one way or another. That we were destined to choose one way over another is neither here nor there with compatibilism.

With your sense of freedom, there is no way to distinguish between a man in his kitchen ready to make a sandwich and a starving prisoner begging a cruel guard for something to eat. In your view, they are both equally unfree to do anything. To everyone else, this makes all the difference in the world.

Can we stick to debating and not psychoanalysing others… thanks.

What’s the difference between a person who believes in determinism and one who believes in compatabilism/free will?

On the plus side:
The determinist feels that he is not responsible/accountable for his life.

The non-determinist feels that he has control of his life.

On the minus side:
The determinist feels that he lacks control of his life.

The non-determinist feels the pressure of responsibility and accountability.

Which feeling do you prefer to have?

To what extent do these beliefs alter a life?

Aw, why you gotta ruin our fun, Mags?

Tell you what… Biggy, do you like psychoanalyzing me? I like psychoanalyzing you. If we both agree to accept each other’s psychoanalyzations (because it’s fun), can we continue?

phyllo…

Some very profound questions there. I prefer to feel in control of my life. Even as a determinist (which I’m not sure I am), one can feel in control of one’s life. The only sense in which determinism entails no control over one’s life is if one believes all the determining factors controlling one’s self are outside one’s self (or not one’s self). But you can still say: it was me who did it, and yet think of yourself as just a cog in a wheel. You can still identify yourself as a link in the chain of cause and effect, and therefore any effect you have on the events that follow from your action comes from you. You can say: I made that happen, I was in control of it. What you can’t say with determinism is: I could have done otherwise.

But it’s true that if you believe you could not have done otherwise, you don’t really bear any responsibility for your actions, and so the determinist may be free of that.

Only if, and only in this thread… it is not an unconditional/applies to all threads consensus.

You’re overlooking something critically important here.

You cannot say “I could have done otherwise” but you can say something much more damning if you were to add one or more conditions.
Which is exactly what taking responsibility demands we do anyway…

I not only could but WOULD have done otherwise, If only I were stronger, if only I were better educated, if only I placed more value on it… etc

If that is not an imperative toward self-improvement and responsibility, then nothing is.

That assumes that the determinist is identifying an ‘I’ or ‘self’. That’s not necessarily the case. Does a billiard ball, a rock or a cog have a ‘self’? No.

He can say that there is no one in control.

And even if he does identify a ‘self’, he can still say that his actions are entirely due to outside forces - forces which created him as he is (the properties of the rock or ‘self’) and forces currently acting on him (the present environment).

Which is what Iambig is saying.

You’re the best Mags… but I have a feeling Biggy will reject this enticing offer, or just ignore it. Until then, no psychoanalyzing!

Yes, that’s why I left that part out. To be free in the incompatible sense is to say “I could have done otherwise,” period. Not if this was the case, or that condition was met, etc.

That is correct, phyllo.

This is why I was trying to say that there can be two types of determinists–those who think we are participants in the chain of cause and effect and those who think we (or “we”) are outside the system all together. Biggy keeps putting quotes around “I” so I think it’s fair to say he’s of the latter variety (plus he’s out right said so on numerous occasions).

I think the “I” is just what it feels like to be the cog in the wheel; sure, we’re nothing more than a system of neurons and chemicals processing information about the world, but that’s just what we look like from the outside, as a third person, but it’s still like something to be a system of neurons and chemicals, and that’s just our thoughts, emotions, and inner experiences–the view from the inside.

I’m going to assume you’ve lost sight of the context… though I do not know how.

So put into context… what you say above does NOT hold true at all because of this fairly critical oversight. The determinist cannot escape responsibility by recourse to “I could not have done otherwise”

In the context of responsibility, I would argue the “I could have done otherwise” is a weaker claim.

The implication is I could have done otherwise AS I AM… no correction required, no flaw, nor excellence… no cause at all is recognized.

I have to comment on this confused mess…

Seriously Phyllo, Gib…
Do not mistake one person’s failure to use language effectively with a variant of determinism, please.

What qualifies as “I” is a semantic issue, not a variant of determinism.

I could define identity in such a way to make it impossible outside of strict determinism… say something along the lines of anything that is not directly caused by my physical body’s interacting with the environment is not “mine” or is “outside of me”, thus making free will incompatible with the existence of an “I”

Though the classic conception is that there is a duality and in many cases (as a result) “I” is defined as the spirit or soul or otherwise immaterial entity that is in possession of the body, a body which is subject to this spirit’s will…

But these are definitions that are custom designed to fit a particular conception. If you use the “wrong” definition while applying a different conception, you will be left without the ability to identify an “I”

I’m noting a difference between a rock rolling down a hill and a person selecting a path by which to descend down the hill.

Both are reacting to the terrain based on their particular characteristics.

The person is choosing and the rock is not choosing. The person has control and the rock does not.

That’s what choice is. Right?

If he slips and starts falling, then he loses control and choice.

Agreed… but perhaps agency would be a better term than “choice”

You could make the same observation about a machine “selecting” how to steer down a hill…

A rudimentary version might be to simply detect and steer toward the most even topography within a short distance… but in order to implement any agency it requires certain conditions. It needs to be oriented such that it’s wheels touch the ground and the camera faces forward etc.

You might not consider that a “choice” but I would argue that’s a matter of definition… selecting a path based on a preference, no matter how predictable, is no less a selection.

Sure. You could say that a human being is a very sophisticated ‘machine’. It’s a machine making decisions based on a huge number of inputs and stored memory. Some of those inputs are far removed from the physical terrain of the hill. For example, a recommendation heard about which path to take, avoiding stepping on plants and animals for ethical reasons, mistaken assessments of situation or danger involved, fear in general, etc.

This is significantly removed from a rock or even a simple machine doing down hill. Or at least, I choose to think so.

Therefore, I would talk about human decisions in a particular way.

That is what I imagine we all elect to do… for strictly pragmatic reason if nothing else.
It’s way easier to model a goal seeking agent in our heads than a complex web of neural and chemical reactions as a result of stimuli past and present that ultimately result in something approximating said agent.

But I worry we’ve lost sight of any disagreement or topic at this point.

I was primarily interested in challenging your and Gib’s agreement about the implications a deterministic view has on individual responsibility.

Your original claim seemed to make the mistake of conflating determinism with fatalism given your conclusions but I could be wrong.

Gib then boiled it down to well you can find some measure of escape by recourse to “I could not have done differently” which I believe I have countered quite strongly.

See I find these intuitions people have about the implications of determinism on personal responsibility distressing.
I don’t think they have any logical basis, hence why I call them intuitions.

This is a view I encounter often as a determinist, and I don’t know if it’s caused by confusing determinism and fatalism or something else.
Granted I do not have a particularly strong attachment to determinism, it’s a view I hold entirely for pragmatic reasons and do not regard at all as conclusively true or false…
Yet on this topic I find I am often faced with a failure of logic for some inexplicable reason… and I lack a good explanation for why it occurs.

That’s because the discussion was geared towards Iambig’s particular “style” of determinism.

If you tell Iambig that he is not responding to posts, he uses determinism to rationalize it as “he could not have responded in any other way”.

Talk about self-improvement or responsibility and he says that he has no control over that. Why? Determinism.

He appears to want to remove power, control and responsibility from the individual and place it somewhere else.

If I see a complex machine making decisions, then I would tend to assign it agency. Iambig seems to see a reason to take away agency from humans.

That’s my reading of his position. :confusion-shrug:

Sorry, poor wording. The determinist doesn’t escape responsibility just on his beliefs, but on whether he’s right.

How is this any different from what I said? Yeah, different definitions for the same term. Different definitions lead to different concepts. Different concepts lead to different “isms”. You get two variants of determinism—one that defines “I” as a participant in the system, the other that defines “I” as outside the system (or possibly non-existent).

This is how you generate spaghetti in your head and then get lost trying to untangle the mess.

People playing fast and loose with semantics are not “generating new concepts” they are just confusing themselves and everyone else.

Let’s say you’ve drawn a detailed true to life picture of a house. Along comes a dude and says something like “there’s no door in your picture”
You then point to the door in the picture and go “that’s a door” the guy then says “no that’s just an arbitrary section of the house… there’s nothing but a house in the picture”

Your take away from this should not be to say “there are two pictures and each of us is looking at a different picture” I mean It can be, but this is how you generate brain spaghetti…

But the discussion is really about why Iambig doesn’t see a door where others do see a door.

It’s about why his “I” is fragmented, why he is in an existential hole, why he is ‘obsessed’ by what most people would call “determinism”, why he responds as he does.

It’s not that he is saying there is no door in the picture… he just won’t call it a “door”, he thinks the word “door” means something else, something that does not exist in the picture… but he is very much looking at the same picture.

In our language and in our brains we tile the world into categories of distinct objects and entities… this division is not how the world truly is, it’s just our way of making sense of it for practical reasons.

This is a game you can play with ANY model of reality… or just a picture.

It sounds as though he is reiterating the idea that we are consciousness and concluding (correctly) that ideas and thoughts are brought into our awareness without any willful act that we are conscious of.
In this view we are slaves to the workings of our brains and are relegated to being spectators of ourselves.

You might find this view absurde, but it is only a description, and if you grant the definitions… it is describing roughly the same picture… just tiled differently.

Edit:
It’s worth noting that this is a scientific claim about the nature of our brains and consciousness, which I think is on shaky ground.
There’s a fairly strong case to be made for how and why our consciousness plays a very significant role and is not “merely an observer”

But where I am stuck in particular is in discerning “once and for all” if I was ever able to decide that I am not stuck instead. Autonomously, freely or whatever else one calls “I” making a choice in a world not entirely in sync with the laws of matter.

From my frame of mind, this doesn’t make my point go away until someone is able to demonstrate that either for me or for “tons” of others, the things that we think, feel and do were or were not in fact the things that we were only able to think, feel and do. Psychologically, we seem able to convince ourselves that we choose freely. But how is this in and of itself demonstrated to not merely be an inherent manifestation of life evolving into the human brain on earth? Evolving wholly in sync with the laws of matter?

Same thing. Until it can be demonstrated that the choice I made to block it out was not the only choice I was ever able going to make, we just go around and around in circles. Why? Because we were never able not to.

Again, I’m not arguing that I believe this beyond all doubt. I’m only suggesting that my ambivalence here may well be “beyond my control”. And that even the arguments that some make in concluding that it is not beyond their control is in fact beyond their control. In that they were never able to argue otherwise.

Here I often go back to dreams. In them, I think that I am calling the shots. But it is only my brain matter creating what seem to be very real experiences to me.

No, that’s your assumption. My own aim instead revolves around grappling with human autonomy in a world where “free will” has been debated now for many, many centuries. There is no clear cut consesnsus by any means.

And, so, I am not pursuing determinism. I am not pursuing anything other than an attempt to come to grips with my own ambivalence. And to question those who actually do seem convinced that their own understanding of all this is the right one. That’s the part where human psychology comes into play here for me. This need to believe that there is but one correct answer. Why? Well, because they have already found it. And that allows them to anchor “I” in a foundation that is able to sustain some measure of comfort and consolation.

How can you ruin something for me that does not even exist? I am not arguing as either an objectivist or as a determinist. I am acknowledging right from the start that my own frame of mind here is both an “existential contraption” ever subject to change given new information, knowledge and ideas, and, in turn, woefully incomplete given the gap between what I think I know here and now and all that can be known about the existence of existence itself.

After all, I haven’t written a book that comes to certain – certain? – conclusions about mind and matter.

That would be you, right?

Mostly I am trying to grasp how you reconcile the psychological freedom of any particular individual in a world in which mind is matter and matter is in sync with necessary laws.

How can these not be understood as compatible only in the sense that you were never ever able not to make that distinction? Unless of course you can convince, among others, the philosophical and scientific communities that your conclusions are in fact the most reasonable. And that you either were or were not in fact free to come to that conclusion.

Perhaps because you were never able to not doubt it. But if, in fact, you were, how could you possibly even begin to truly grasp my motivations and intentions anymore than I could truly grasp your own? Try to even imagine the existential gap between your “I” and my “I” in this exhange.

And that is certainly in sync with an assumption of my own: that you actually are convinced that these are things you can in fact know. And how gratifying [psychologically] that must be.

You actually seem to think that I like thinking that we live in an essentially meaningless world on this side of the grave that ends in the obliteration of “I” for all time to come on the other side of it. And you think that I think about this as I think that you think about it.

But only one of us seems rather smug about it all.

Then this part:

But I am not saying “that I do or say or think X only because I could never have not done or said or thought X.” That is you saying what you insist I am saying. Instead, I’m pointing out that I read the arguments of the determinists and the nondeterminists and they both make points that the other side is not able to just make go away. Points that cannot be demonstrated to be necessarily irrational.

I’m pulled and tugged in both directions. And, in fact, if I were wholly convinced that determinism is the optimal or only rational frame of mind here, the only explanation for pursuing dasein, conflicting goods and political economy in my is/ought world discussions is because I was never able not to. But how exactly would I go about determining that?

Is “free will” real? Here and now I can only think I know this or that about the answer. But I can’t determine if what I think I do know here and now is closer or farther away from what you think you know given that neither of us is probably even close to whatever the answer might be given an actual ontological understanding of existence itself.

Exactly! Some think that their own attempts are freely chosen, while others think that, in thinking this, the attempts in and of themselves are just another manifestation of what we still don’t know about how mindless matter could have evolved into brain matter evolving into human minds.

Are memes and genes essentially interchangable in an existence that trudges on necessarily only as it ever could?

Agreeing with you about what? We can both agree that we are exchanging posts here at ILP. We can both agree that we have different takes regarding the existential significance of “psychological freedom” given the choices that we make.

But how would anything that we either agree or disagree about not still be embedded in the gap between what we think we know about these things here and now and all that can be known in about them in order to assess the reality of existence essentially, necessarily?

I’m basically at a loss regarding why you can’t own up to this profoundly significant chasm. Unless, of course, you were never really able to.

No, everything takes me to the question of how it can be determined that “everything” – “anything” – here was or was not ever within my capacity to have chosen otherwise.

Note to others:

What sort of answer is he after here? Please provide me with the manner in which you would answer him instead. So that I can make comparisons.

Sure, maybe. But all I can do here is to respond to the best of my ability. For me, there is no question that we choose our subjective experiences. Instead, the question is the extent to which it is possible that “I” could have freely chosen another experience instead. Or that I could have freely chosen to react to the experiences of others otherwise.

Right now there is a part of me convinced I am freely choosing to type these words. That, in other words, I can stop doing so and freely choose to do something else instead.

But how can I determine this beyond all doubt? Is the fact that psychologically I “think” and I “feel” that I am free the same as actually being so? I think and feel that I am free in my dreams. But it’s all brain matter creating a reality “in my head” to the best of my knowledge.

So, that settles it?

Again: To the extent that anyone is able to point out the weaknesses in my assessment, I can only be grateful.

Nothing that you’ve noted above changes that. Though, sure, you can think what you will in exposing “the real me” to others here.

But I’m the one who has to live from day to day with what I have “here and now” thought myself into believing is true about these things. And, your own contentions to the contrary, it is a really, really, [b]really[/b] grim point of view.

Bingo. You admit that your own answers here may be right, may be wrong. But [from my frame of mind] that’s not the point. Instead, the point is that you have managed to convince yourself that there is a right answer to be had here. So, again, why not yours. It’s the part about having an answer – any answer – that propels the objectivist mind.

Why would you want to “undo” the answer given that having one was the whole point in the first place?

That’s the part where “comfort and consolation” comes in.

The arguments on this thread however revolve more around are the extent to which, psychologicaly and/or metaphysically, anything that we chose here was or was not only as we ever could have chosen it.

Not only do I not know the answer to this, I can’t even imagine the minds of any mere mortals on this tiny little rock in the vastness of what may or may not be the multiverse, actually thinking that they have one!

The fucking answer!!!

To me, that’s analogous to insisting that you believe in the existence of the fucking God! And then demonstrating that He does in fact fucking exist!!

Again, if the human brain is matter wholly in sync with the necessary laws of matter, human thoughts and feelings are either wholly in sync with that or there is something very, very special about human “minds”.

Or, perhaps, souls?

If I could not not have made the sandwich and if I could not not have thought I was doing this freely…

What does freedom mean here? For all practical purposes?

In a determined universe [if that be the case] in which you were never able to not say it.

But my wanting to is or is not no less entangled in my having to want to. My brain/mind is or is not compelled [by whatever brought into existence existence itself] to want or not want things only as it ever could have wanted or not wanted to.

My “sense of freedom” here in making the sandwich would seem to be interchangeable with the prisoner begging the guard for food. We both think and feel and behave as we do only because there was never any real possibility of it being otherwise.