Where did it go?

My challenge:

Okay, but how is any of this really related to my own challenge above?

To get or not to get your child vaccinated is a controversial issue today. It revolves around yet another set of “conflicting goods”: vaccines.procon.org/

So what becomes crucial here is the extent to which either side is or is not able to demonstrate that their own arguments are more solidly embedded in what can be established as “the facts”.

But suppose the law requires certain vaccinations and certain parents refuse to do it. Ought the government be empowered to force them to?

Or what of those religious fundamentalists who refuse to take their children to doctors or hospitals? Again, ought the government be empowered to force them to?

How do “prime logos” and “non sero sum” factor into something like this?

We can imagine lots of things. But to what extent are we able to demonstrate [re vaccination, abortion, animal rights, gun control etc.] that what we imagine is true is in fact true for all reasonable men and women?

And then to what extent are we able to demonstrate that what we believe is rational is synonymous with what we believe is virtuous? How are our moral narratives and political agendas not “existential contraptions” here?

And, again, lets aim the discussion at a particular context involving a particular set of conflicting goods.

No, as matter of fact, we don’t all know this. Instead, different people in different contexts see different things as evil. We then need to focus the discussion in on particular realities construed from particular points of view either able to be or not able to be demonstrated as rational or virtuous.

Again, entirely abstract.

The manner in which I construe “I” here [at the intersection of identity, value judgments and political power] is embedded in this frame of mind: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

Please provide us with a similar trajectory regarding a value judgment of your own.

Note to the Buddhists among us:

Feel free to participate.

I’ll keep this sweet and simple, and it is very down to earth.

Everything you note as an exception, is in fact a consent violation.

My point still stands.

Realities that violate consent are evil by nature.

If, consent violating realities are the only realities that we have access to (forever), then all of us should decide to be evil, because it brings us the most good.

You’re stuck in a false dichotomy at a lower level of cognition …

The mere idea that we have conflicting goods, is a consent violation by definition.

But you can’t bring yourself to say that it’s objectively evil on its face, in fact, your entire shtick is to DEFEND evil so you can have your little, and I mean very little argument.

Who would iambiguous be if he couldn’t regurgitate the same nonsense forever!

Again, note an actual context in which some give their consent to a particular moral narrative or political agenda, and some do not.

How does one go about determining evil objectively then?

And, in regard to the vaccination arguments noted above [pro and con], where and when are particular behaviors to be understood as evil — given the manner in which you construe the meaning of a “consent violation” here?

Note to others:

What on earth am I missing in his assessment above? And why on earth should he be taken seriously?

Do you take him seriously? If so, an explanation please.

You’re still stuck on realities with more than one person who is the actual and not an image or reflection of the actual.

You can have a philosophic zombie reality or even better, a hyperdimensional mirror reality, where everything goes exactly as each person in their own reality wants it to go, since each person is in their own reality, it’s impossible to violate theirs or our consent.

From this, we can discern that consent violating realities (the kind we’re in) are inherently evil.

But actually, we don’t even need a solution, like the two I gave above to draw this conclusion.

Another way to say this is that conflicting good realities are evil. You keep asking me to give you a conflicting good, as if you’re a computer program, when I made it very clear that conflicting good realities are evil. Shifting it to conflicting consents, just solves the same way.

Edited my post.

Bottom line: Where did what go?

A computer cannot beat me here.

I stated"everything goes the way they want it to go in their own reality"

That you would even ask that question in the context of my reply, shows that your program is malfunctioning from limits beyond your programming.

Humans don’t respond like that.

I didn’t mean that what. I meant the one some read between the lines when the beaten computer does not malfunction.

The child isn’t vaccinated, the child dies. The consent is then not in sync with a zero sum assessment.

So, is it the fault of the program or the programmer?

If a child dies because of not getting a vaccine, the consent of the parents and the child are violated, relative (zero sum) to parents and children who don’t have this issue from the child dying or not dying from being vaccinated or not.

That wasn’t your “what” in some fucked up mind reading game, but the only “what” that you replied to, there was no confusion, you were just being irrational, illogical.

What if one parent consents and the other one does not? And the child can’t decide which consent is either more or less in sync with consent as it is interpreted in the law? And then the extent to which it is likely to result in the child’s death if the pharmaceutical industry doesn’t consent to manufacture vaccines that those who do consent to take them can afford? Should the government consensus then shift more to forcing them to? And what if the industry refuses to consent to that?

My “what” here revolves around a context in which good and evil are in sync with rationality and logic. But only to the extent that everyone lives exactly the same life, has exactly the same experiences, and comes to exactly the same conclusion about the existential relationship between identity, value judgments and political power.

And can all agree precisely on what it means here to either live or not to live in a zero sum world.

Also, just out of curiosty, how do you suppose this all plays out in regard to the mid-term elections here in America?

Here’s the problem with your comfort zone iambiguous. I’m arguing from an abstraction above it.

I’m stating that realities with conflicting goods or conflicting consents are objectively evil.

I don’t have to solve the vaccine debate to win my debate.

How can you be above a comfort zone that has not been defined by consent here? And how can an abstract definition here ever compete with two comfort zones that are in conflict. For example, “in reality”?

And I’m stating that stating something is not the same as demonstrating something. In particular when consent given to one behavior results in consent being taken away from another. You can’t consent to both the baby being born and the pregnant woman’s right to abort it.

Well, if one wins the debate merely by assering that they have won, how can I not agree.

Just out of curiosity, have you ever not won a debate given that assumption?

All you did was repeat the same thing, in your comfort zone.

Actually it’s a demonstration by definition.

The only thing people define as bad is consent violation. That’s very down to earth.

If we have no choice but to have our consent violated in this reality, then the squabbles don’t detract from the larger point, again true by definition that we can all demonstrate, that the reality itself is objectively evil.

Or: All you did was repeat the same thing, in your comfort zone.

Or: Actually, my definition of a comfort zone is a demonstration that your definition of a comfort zone is wrong if it’s not in sync with my definition.

On the other hand, sooner or later actual behaviors have to be either rewarded or punished depending on the extent to which an actual consent is reached. Why is one party in violation of it more out of sync with the definition of good behavior than the other party?

And suppose no consent is reached between parties in an actual community regarding the definitions given to the words used to differentiate good from bad behavior.

Is abortion by definition moral or immoral? Are vaccinations by definition moral or immoral? Is eating animal flesh by definition moral or immoral?

At least up in the scholastic clouds.

It’s very straight forward.

Someone doesn’t want to kill.

It makes them suicidal that they have to kill to live, but if they commit suicide they are also killing.

They are proof that this TYPE of reality is evil.

It’s very down to earth, and there are lots of people who have this condition who suffer and suffer and suffer…

Are they orienting their consent wrong?

No.

So if you’re not orienting your consent wrong, and that only causes suffering, then it’s not them, it’s the TYPE of reality they are in.

You don’t consent to me taking you out of your comfort zone (that which gets you all this attention in perpetuity - that morality is subjective) because if you did, then what else would you talk about?

You don’t consent to me winning the debate.

It’s not me, it could be anyone, this debate wins itself over the lower hierarchy of what you present as your hole.

Look, as long as you consent to believe that all these words are true because they are defined and defended by all of the other words that you post, then I consent to agree that you do in fact believe this.

What they actually have to do with specific examples of moral and political conflicts that have rent the human species for thousands and thousands of years, is something I will have to assume is also taken care of “in your head”.

At least until you take these “general description” words out into the world that we actually do live in.

You win the debate because your world of words trumps any and all actual conflicts that I know of.

[size=50]Unless of course you are just making this stuff up as you go along.[/size]

You really cannot admit to objective good and/or bad

Apparently, to you, consent violation is just a “world of words”

You have to use the 5 stages of a sex dimorphic species to solve the mundane problems, to get them to just fall away.

im going after more extraordinary problems than those …

To me. To you.

That’s my whole point of course.

At least until one of us is able to demonstrate that what we believe is true “in our head” about moral and political conflicts is that which all reasonable and virtuous men and women are obligated to believe in turn.

Now, admittedly, I haven’t even come close. But, then, given the manner in which I have come to understand these relationships existentially, I don’t suppose I ever will.

Still, I’m not the one insisting that an objective morality does in fact exist because I have concocted an argument “in my head” claiming that it does.

“Up there” is where you and your ilk are always stuck.

That’s why I created this tread – viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 – so that we can bring the argument [the analysis, the assessment, the technical jargon] down out of the scholastic clouds [and the “general descriptions”] and out into the world that we are all familiar with.

Nobody seems interested though.

On the other hand, no one’s argument seems nearly as surreal as yours.

But, sure, the problem here might be me. I never ignore that possibility.

Let me say, that when the world community strives for greater consent and less zero sum environments, that’s all they can hope to achieve… less. Not absolute.

The 5 stages that a sex dimorphic species must go through, involve intense community around human sexuality.

Problem number one of the mundane world is human sexuality … solve that problem, and your conflicting goods vanish.

I’ve said this before on ilp and I’ll say it to you.

Every conceivable political party solves as exactly the same if you have all good administrators and a good populace … but you can’t have any of that with the divide and conquer nature of human sexuality.

Your Marxism ploy just doesn’t bear out to the actual solution.

Your comfort zone is, “should people be given polio vaccines”. When I’m talking about no polio ever exists again no matter what.

I’m always taking this debate one hierarchy above your comfort zone.

Obviously, it’s more ethical that polio doesn’t exist, it subsumes your conflicting goods argument about it existing.

You though, can look at the situation and state, “well, yeah, if polio didn’t exist, that would be better and my argument would be moot.”

But I take it to the highest possible, consent violations. And you continue to argue about conflicting consents. And I state, “well, if conflicting consents don’t exist, then, like the polio argument, your conflicting goods are irrelevant”

Even if you could conclude an irreconcialable conflicting good, you’d be forced to admit that conflicting goods in and of themselves are bad! You actually state as much in every post as calling it part of your hole: bad. So you are being a moral objectivist already, without even agreeing with me that ANY consent violation proves the reality in question bad in an elevated hierarchy to what you already say is objectively bad.

You just can’t help yourself, I suppose.

You make all these points and claims as though in making them that makes them true.

The closest you get to anything specific is polio. Yet even here your points have almost nothing to do with the points that I raise.

There are facts about polio. There are facts about vaccinations to prevent polio. There are facts embedded in the arguments of those who are for and against particular vaccinations.

Then this part:

Within the first three months of life, infants must be vaccinated for tuberculosis, tetanus, polio, pertussis, and Haemophilus influenza type B. Within 18 months, vaccines are required for measles, mumps and rubella, and finally, before a child starts school, the child must be vaccinated for hepatitis B.

What if the parents don’t consent to this? Or refuse on religious grounds?

What is the philosophical argument that establishes objectively what parents are morally obligated to do here?

In a No god world.

And that’s before we get to considerably more problematic conflicting goods that revolve around issues like abortion or animal rights or gun control or immigration policy.