Women cannot be "Strong" and VICTIMS at the same time...

Here’s the thread in a nutshell…

While I can have a great deal of sympathy for the emotions underneath this, a story has hardened into a metaphysics. Of course we all harden our stories into metaphysics, but a noble person will find the tools to undo this. I mean, sure, I have struck appliances for no doing what they are supposed to and blamed tools for my mistakes and made everyone narratives based on some of my experiences and not wanted to look around at other stories or see the anomolies and wonder about my involvement in the making of my story. But a time comes when you have to question the narratives in your head, and get into the tough challenges of learning.

I know this post is harsh and ad hom. But I have people who I love who the op is spraying shit on. And really, the argument in it, if applied broadly, sprays shit on all of us.

@Urwrong

Rape isn’t just about one thing.
Rape damages women in multiple ways.

There is fear of contracting an STI, fear of unwanted pregnancies, fear of being held down against their will, and fear of being beaten.
They may develop (more) androphobia/misandry, agoraphobia/misanthropy and/or GAD.
They may be full of self-loathing for being afraid, or for not being able to escape, evade or fend off their attacker.
They may try to conceal their fear, because they don’t want others to know how vulnerable someone made them feel.

Some of them may blame themselves: ‘did I lead him on in some way, am I a skank’?
Which’s of course what you’re advocating, some rape victims to do.
Or: ‘was I wrong to refuse him, was I being mean, am I a bitch’?
And yea, like you said, some women may feel (more) like ‘damaged goods’ after being raped, even if they’re feminists, or just proud and don’t care to admit it.

As for men who’re raped by men, or women, they’re less likely to think of themselves as damaged goods, and more likely to question their masculinity.

Again, there’s a hell of a lot more going on here than just that, but I agree that that can play a role, for whatever reasons: cultural, sociological and/or evolutionary.

Just because a woman isn’t (very) attractive, doesn’t mean rape can’t damage her, it can damage her immensely, for all the aforementioned reasons, and probably more.
You’re just thinking of how it damages her, for you, not of how it damages her, for herself and people who love her, which’s extremely unempathetic and antisocial of you.

Sexual value is of course subjective.
For some men, rape victims may have less value, but I think for most modern men, it wouldn’t make much difference.
I don’t think it would make much difference for me, I’d probably mostly feel sorry for her, unless her PTSD was so bad it made her highly dysfunctional, or worse, she had a huge grudge against all men, than I’ll have to take a rain check.
It’s not my job to rescue women, been there done that, didn’t work out so well, and it’s certainly not my job to be punished for ‘patriarchy’ or other men’s supposed ‘crimes’.
Never done that and never will, I’ll leave that to the SJWs and white knights of the world.
Good luck fellas.

It is definitely true that there are feminists who have binary and or aburd thinking and this leads them to ridiculous positions. When Macenroe said that Serena Williams would place somewhere in the top 150 in men’s tennis - I could have the number wrong - he was simply correct. He may have been off on the exact placement, but however great she is, she is still not as fast, explosive and skilled as top men. She is definitely a strong woman and an incredible talent, but it is not sexist to point out that she cannot beat the top men. so he gets a heap of shit from people who would be very saddened if men’s and women’s tennis merged. There are examples in many other fields and topics with similar idiocy.

But a counter reaction with its own idiocy does not make matters better.

Women were told for centuries that they were little better than children mentally and incapable of all sorts of things it has turned out they are completely capable of. Serena Williams appearing in 1960 would have scared the shit out nearly every male tennis player. Women in many, many professional fields have turned out to be yes, strong and capable in ways that it was considered absurd previously. It isn’t binary. You can be strong and still be overpowered by a man and raped. You can be noble and raped. In fact I think the idea is attractive to some men, to put a woman in her place. One can be increbilty strong in various areas of activity and yet be vulnerable to many different crimes, including rape.

We do no one, man or woman, service by arguing that if you are the victim of a crime you are not strong.

Yes, those feminists who think that only men create problems are in a bind if they then want to say women are strong. They need to explain how women who are strong stood by and watched men fuck things up without intervening. I am sure such feminists exist and also defacto exist since it is implicit in some other feminist arguments even if they don’t come right out and say it.

But this is just lumping everyone into one absurd box. Everyone on the team one disagrees with. Throwing a lack of nuance at a lack of nuance does not help anyone.

You don’t get to take all the money out of an open cash register just because the store owner was careless and left it open to go in back to check on something that might be out of stock. You are still responsible. He is not a pure victim. He did not take care of his cash as he should, he put himself in a bad situation, especially give your character…but amazingly enough you are still a theif. He did not cause you to steal. Even if he had a few drinks. Or he turned his back on you so you could bash his head in. Even if he should have been more wary or not opened a store in THAT neighborhood. Even if he should have taken more MMA lessons. Even if he was born smaller than you and is an ecto to your mesomorph. In fact this idea, held by many of the worst criminals, that if they succeeded in fucking you over, you deserved being subjected to the crime, in not a good one to reinforce. Cause they don’t give a fuck if your wife is a traditional, noble woman, they’ll still break into your house and rape her. I know you think that you will be home, near enough to your gun and it will all work out like in a Bruce Willis movie because it works like that in your mind, but sorry, noble men and women get fucked over too. If they have money, the odds do go down, but it is correlated with the money not with the nobility.

And why do you need to steal? Why is that attractive to you? Why can’t you get your own money in a noble way?

What kind of person criticizes women as being sluts and not being noble, but thinks that the men who rape her because she drank or had certain clothes are not due some serious criticism? It seems they have no self-control, want to have sex with someone who does not want to, want to have sex with someone they do not like or respect, and seemingly have little outlet for their desires so this is considered an opportunity. They are 1) clearly sluts themseveles, lacking moral character around sex and 2) do not mind overriding other people’s desires with force. Alright your tribe needs food, I get why you might raid a neigboring tribe, to take care of your own. But if the world is full of sluts, then you don’t have to force yourself on one who does not want to have sex with you. And if you can’t find a decent woman, one you consider moral and noble, you might want to look at yourself.

Some men want women to be these pure mirrors. They don’t want women to be like them, they call those women sluts. The little madonna/whore dichotomy in their minds is just that, a thing in their minds. I don’t want some fucking Sharia run society where men are women’s jailers and the women have to keep themselves completely pure so the men don’t have to deal with their own self-hatred.

Growing up it was a great disappointment to me actually that women who attain power aren’t at all concerned with “saving the planet”. That would be a useful fixation. But it turns out women with power are even more narcissistic than men, so much so that they invented a political movement designating only the value of their own gender.

:angry:

Woman shortcircuited. How can their gender have value if it doesn’t value the gender that is supposed to value it?

My question is why female sex slavery was romanticized in art? Who the hell came up with that idea? To make it romanticized as such. Did people buy it and actually believe they were looking at something beautiful and romantic going on there?
We still have sex slavery going on worldwide (in the form of human trafficking - fortunately, no one (that I know) is making romantic paintings out of girls being pushed into a van at gunpoint, or laying in bed nude, smiling and blissed out because they’re pumped full of heroin)
Because today, that would be an equivalent of romanticizing this subject.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Piln … _Pliny.jpg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Piln … 4ndler.jpg
artpaintingartist.org/the-favori … tto-pilny/
kollerauktionen.ch/fr/31570 … 68976.html
mutualart.com/Artwork/Sale- … 997A279470
fineartamerica.com/featured/men … erget.html
artuk.org/discover/artworks/the … rket-12842
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File … a-1887.jpg
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File … GA8652.jpg

(I could go on and on… This was a whole genre of its own in romantic painting)

These days theres no paintings, but videos. Many of them.
It never really was a fantasy, always a reality.

This is the true Victimhood that can be claimed, but the perps are all liberals, so thats not going to happen.

This all seems like a contradiction to me.

Do you teach your daughters to be self-responsible, strong, and not be victims? Or do you teach your daughters to be victims, weak, and dependent upon others?

Which is it??? Convince me!

I want to be wrong on this topic. Teach me how women being victims is a morally good thing. I want to hear the arguments. Use all your reason.

How frequent is this though, really?

How many daughters of the middle class, suburban neighbors, are being kidnapped and gunpoint and flown overseas?

1 in 1,000,000?

Is this equivalent to the topic-matter, that a teenage girl, or young woman in college, gets drunk at a frat party, loses her virginity, and claims she was raped (by her boyfriend at the time) X-years later???

First of all, don’t conflate the cases, because they’re not the same. Second of all, at what point should women be “victims”, and which point shouldn’t they be?

Should a 30-year-old woman be a “victim”? Shouldn’t she have learned, by now, hopefully???

I’m not saying there aren’t VICTIMS in the world. Clearly, there are (Mollie Tibbetts). I’m not saying that all victimhood can be avoided or prepared for. It can’t. There are rare circumstances and occurrence, chances of harm and evil, that cannot be anticipated. However, my point has more to do with enduring evil, and recovering from it. I do believe, that a ‘prouder’, stronger woman, would want revenge for the injustice done to her, and the assault to her pride. Why aren’t females reporting rape, if it is so, immediately after it would happen? It’s shame, fear, etc? To what point is it an excuse? At least the world would know, for certain, that coming forward immediately that a woman is speaking truthfully.

10-20-30 years later, there must be doubt. And this #metoo movement, isn’t it doing more harm than good, to the next generation of daughters?

I believe that people are using these matters politically and not addressing real problems, seriously. It cheapens the occurrence of real victims when they do happen. Basically, the Modern world is capitalizing on the victimization of true-victims, which is a double-evil. It’s an evil for the rare times (Mollie Tibbetts) such a thing happens, and it’s double-evil for others to compare their injustice to one that was far greater.

That’s what I’ve been trying to get at, that most of you are missing.

I think the Modern world let’s Evil be, and allows it to happen, than to really address it and respond immediately to it.

I believe that Modern humans would rather some Evil occur to some, than to break the peace and bliss of the many.

This is why Moderns don’t really care about each-other, except on a superficial level. Because the morality is, “some evil is good, as long as the many is safe”. And Moderns are then, immediately hypocrites, when the evil happens to them. Because then they find a deep discontentment in the response, “why doesn’t anybody care?!?!”

Well, that is because the Western world has slowly cultivated an apathetic population, made not to care… it has been indoctrinated over time.

Urwrongx1000

Learned what ~ to be as a god ~ omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent?

Is a 30-year old woman not a human being? Is she perfect in all things or is she allowed to be flawed? Is she not allowed to feel like a victim under certain circumstances until that time when she gains more consciousness and realization not to BE one?

Human beings are NOT all knowing. We cannot be aware at every moment in time of everything which is going on around us or of just the right thing to do. We may be self-determined but there are others who are also self-determined. Do you see the clash there?

Do we learn? Yes, we do as we go along and in time. Even warriors fighting are not omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, are they? For any man to think that "a woman should (absurd) have learned, I might ask that man what his fear is?

Have you ever been attacked or raped that you can make that statement or is it just an open statement for discussion?
Can you know the mind and the emotions of a woman who is being attacked?
Can you know what inner strength may be within her which she is utilizing at that moment although physically speaking, she may not have the strength of her attacker?
Aside from that, women can be both strong and victims at the same time. It is too bad that there are not enough strong real men out there to show a woman that. Too many little boys!

Are you being facetious here?

I would ask you just how much in terms of percentage would you say that these women are at fault as opposed to the men who ARE RAPISTS and supposedly just could not help themselves?
YOU speak about women being ignoble? LOOK AGAIN.

Indeed!

To be Self-responsible

It seems impossible to the likes of you, though.

Maybe Classical knowledge and wisdom are correct. Women are less than human, and incapable of morality, incapable of self-responsibility, autonomy, and accountability in any form?

Females are the ‘innocent’ half of humanity, completely blameless in anyway, shape or form.

Arcturus just proved me right. Somebody else, prove me wrong.

I think the main reason women are perfectly blameless, and cannot be responsible for anything, is because the female gender has become dependent upon males over the course of evolution. Women simply don’t have it in their DNA, to be self-responsible for anything. So a Modern woman feels entitled to walk into a gang-neighborhood, and then be surprised when she is robbed and raped by minorities. Similarly, a Modern woman feels entitled to dress like a slut, get blackout drunk at a bar or night-club, and then she can claim victim-status for being raped there. Any and all rapes are “true-rapes”, to women. Because women cannot give any concessions. Women can’t give the hint of taking any responsibility for anything in life.

Women are morally inferior to men, because women are not made to be accountable for anything in life. Perfectly blameless, innocent, “no hitting women”. The truly Privileged gender. The Protected gender. “But what about all the rape that happens!”

Well, don’t get blackout drunk at a night-club and then drink from a glass handed to you by a stranger??? Ever think of that??? No. Because that would imply that a woman can think for herself…

I feel like this hyperbole is a disservice to Conservative women, who do have some moral dignity, and are wise enough to know the difference. Some women are Lady-like, smarter about their company, and more observant to which men are suspicious deviants, criminals, and which are not. So if you are Conservative (and female), then know that my slander does not apply to you.

Real Women” are worth praising, defending, and honoring. Some people are worth cherishing. I think we all know this, but don’t want to admit it publicly.

I agree with you on this. There are many double standards existing, if you look closer. But a “poster child” for a movement has to hit home, or, like you said, nobody would be able to identify with him/her. Who cares if a young girl is raped in India, where it may be the social norm for her own parents to sell her into sex slavery, and everybody just accepts it? Where the practice is so old and widespread that it is considered a part of their culture? And what is a woman to do if it is a close relative that rapes her and she is dependent on him for her economic/emotional support? And yes, economic/social class plays a very big role in our level of acceptance of these unfortunate happenings. An impoverished woman in India may report being raped, but if every other woman is also getting raped, and it is perceived more or less as normal occurrence by those around her, and this is the environment in which she grew up, what would be done? Probably not much. It’s very possible that such woman may cave in under social pressures and just accept it as a part of her reality, her norm. (What rape problem? We don’t have a rape problem!). I think this is what happens to a lot of women where a-woman-getting-raped is seen as not that big of a deal, and is just internalized by women as a part of reality of being a woman. And the definition of rape is hinged on a woman’s consent, right? And if so, then the definition of rape becomes a fuzzy area itself as well. Did she consent? She said yes, but because of her limited options, she was also afraid for her life, or safety or future consequences. And this is the environment in which many of these women grow up in, or as certain men would joke, “If you’re getting raped, at least try to enjoy it!” And some women actually accept this reasoning!

I wonder just how self-responsible you are!

You mis-read what I wrote. I am all for women (and men) to learn to be self-responsible, to be more conscious of everything which they do, to think ahead like a chess player to determine what the repercussions/consequences of this or that behavior could be, to take responsibility for their actions when they have not been conscientious and cautious in caring for and protecting their selves. This is not ONLY when they have put their life or their Self in jeopardy but for every consequence which did not have to happen had they given thought and reflection ahead of time.

Human beings can be quite stupid, quite unthinking. The point I was trying to make is that even though a woman or a girl or even a man does a really stupid thing like getting drunk and making her or his -self very vulnerable and unprotected, this does not mean that she or he was asking to get raped, that they wanted it. Are they responsible for their part in not taking care of their selves, YES, THEY ARE, but only an inhumane, non-compassionate person, someone with such a sense of entitlement and priviledge, or a mysogynist, would be stupid enough to think that these people had it coming.

As for what I wrote below:

Again, we are not perfect. We are flawed. There are times when we can be the most diligent in our safety but things will happen beyond our control. Of course, you yourself do not fit into that category. You are infallible.

Arc you think some one who callously plays with the passions of others suddenly ceases to be responsible for their actions?

I disagree. If a person is sexually provocative then that person is sexually provocative. Meaning that person is reaponsible for provoking sexual passions. If it happens in a party with drunk people there is no sane way of denying such a person is literally “looking for trouble”.

I don’t believe Ford was raped. I think she was trying to get with K, he was crude with her, and she vowed revenge.

Urwrong,

lol Please define what you mean by spiritually here for me.

Perhaps her father might feel that way 300 years ago.lol I am not so sure that a woman’s main focus would be her sexual value. It would be the destruction of her psyche, her self identity, the loss of her spiritual and physical autonomy. It would be about her stolen freedom and the right to be able to say NO.

So you think that people, or ALL the individuals in the Metoo movement are spiritually weak? Have you even taken the time to take that leap into the darkness to really consider what these women are all about? Granted, I also have my questions and doubts about some of them but human beings are complicated and convoluted and this is a very messy affair especially where conflicted interests are concerned. You would crucify these women for coming forward?

barbarianhorde

No, I do not and I have no idea how or why you would think that.
We are all responsible for our own actions ~ that is, if we have a conscience and think humanely of consequences.

True. Are they being deliberately sexually provocative to control and get attention?

.

I can agree with this but I also feel that it is also up to the other party to protect their self. If it is a young girl or guy, they haven’t learned so much at that time to control their passions or their need to not give into that attention or sexual control.

I would not deny that. But let us say that that person, a female, is raped, because of her behavior. Granted, her behavior CONTRIBUTED to the outcome but would you say that she was just asking to be raped, let us say, literally asking to be raped, and that she deserved it?

I do not think that I am being so naive here to think that if there were other types of men there at that party, other types of INDIVIDUALS there, it might not have come down to that - no matter how drunk both sides were. Some men or guys could just not do that - they would find the discipline and inner strength to hold back. There are certain types of individuals in a lynching mob who would scream "Hang him, hang him, but there are other types, to be sure, who would be incapable of doing such a thing.

Opinion is not necessarily truth. How do you come by that conclusion?

I cannot make that judgment either way. I did not see any of her testimony but I went home early and I saw all of Cavanaugh’s. Frankly, I do not know what to think and the waters are so muddied now. What you say may be true but for a woman to put herself through all of that testimony, through all of that…I cannot say.

I watched Cavanaugh. I listened to what his friends said about him and the 36 I believe letters from his women friends who had known him for quite some time.

I watched his behavior carefully and I still cannot determine if another man, judge, under those circumstances might have acted differently. He was of course fighting for his life basically, his future and he was being attacked. If he is innocent, I can feel great compassion for him and if he is guilty of what they assumed him of, then he cannot get that chair and depending on the findings…well…

People do act differently under the same circumstances. We respond and react differently. I could see his belligerence clearly on his face, I saw and heard how he continued to impress and show himself as he was very young, the things he did, his volunteer work. At times it seemed to me that he was quite over the top with it but could that be the desperate attempt of an innocent man or a guilty man? Then he made the comment to the woman, asking her if she forgot things or something like that, when she was drunk. That was crude to me, considering that she didn’t drink - she had told him that her father was an alcoholic. Could that be another side to him that had been left unrevealed, dregs from his past.

There were times when I felt that he might be guilty* but feelings and intuition are faulty. I just do not know how any woman could put herself through something like that unless she was insane. Many of those women who came forward on the MeToo did not have the exposure which she had. I think that to just dismiss her comes from a place of wanting to believe she lied about everyting and sweeping it all under the carpet.
The same goes for him.

The whole thing did become like some kind of a witchhunt or McCarthyism.

Is it possible that she was a pawn of some of the Democrats? Who knows. I do not think that we will ever really get at the truth of it without real evidence - and hearsay is not evidence. Both sides paint a different picture of him.