The Philosophers

Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:52 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You can’t say everything, and its best not to try.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Where of course Sokrates began that whole sharade. He said: Help, theres stuff I don’t know, and its pretty important.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:56 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
And then Nietzsche, after some millenniums of pretty bad shit altogether, said dude, you don’t wanna know.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But you see, he was actually talking about different shit to not know than Sok was talking about not knowing, and Aristotle was talking about accepting precisely by omitting it in your speeches.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Since Rumsfeld identified unknown unknowns to CNN, nature has doubled down on her efforts to hide.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
words are essentially, all of them, attempts to not hide too much.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Authority Figure: What you you do?
Me: I speak for that which cant be lowered to words.
Authority Figure: …

Bam. Results.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Capable
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:53 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“I speak for that which cannot be lowered to words”, damn. I like that. I might use that line in a conversation someday.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Aristotle in a nutshell: Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Where is that man who teaches without words? I would speak with him.

This is why modern math is retarded View previous topic View next topic Go down
Author Message
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: This is why modern math is retarded Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=s86-Z-CbaHA[/youtube]


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, ‘math’ as a means to unlearn logic.
Obviously none of that is really mathematics, it is simply word-play, where the word ‘infinite’ is radically misunderstood to begin with, as ‘a size’ .(???)


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Capable
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I had someone tell me about this, claiming “math proves” that you can take a 3D object and cut it apart then put it back together making two objects of the same volume as the original… I couldn’t believe someone can be that idiotic. Even the Cantor “proof” is just idiotic, that there are supposed to be more numbers between 0 and 1 than there are integers. Give me a fucking break. This sort of “math” is just a litmus test of non-thinking.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, theres supposedly different orders of infinity, but all they are referring to is different ways of using math to arrive at the conclusion that you can keep counting, because it is abstract and has no weight. There is no actual, measurable infinity, as a measure is a limit. But surprisingly, this is too philosophical for mathematicians.

The order of real numbers offers a lot of numerical ways into infinity, just as it offers a lot of numerical ways in general. That is all.
They dont stop to think that real numbers are formulated and arrived at by the same decimal system that produces the sequence of integers.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
On a science documentary one of the physicists said that whenever their solution included infinity it means they made a big mistake somewhere.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
On a science documentary one of the physicists said that whenever their solution included infinity it means they made a big mistake somewhere.

Haha, yeah.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:16 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
math.ku.edu/~jmartin/course … cantor.pdf

kek


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:17 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I am beginning to wonder if the field of mathematics is little more than a lack of philosophy, a lack made functional by the fact that mathematics itself is already simply a language based on logic and reality, so that no matter how much mathematicians butcher it it still keeps on working.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“A set S is finite iff there is a bijection between S and {1,2,…,n} for some positive integer n, and infinite otherwise. (I.e., if it makes sense to count its elements.)”

Lol, no, a set is finite if it has a limited number of items in it. A set with 5 or 500 or 5000000 items in it is a finite set, that is what “finite” means. To have a definite, limited quantity.

Not sure why this is so hard for these “mathemagicians” to understand.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This is why modern math is retarded Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Apparently studying even basic logic isn’t a requirement for being a mathematician.

Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: No more net neutrality? Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What is the logic of this move, what does it mean?


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
What is the logic of this move, what does it mean?

think it means that what google has been doing is now legal.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yes, legal for all access providers. A new way for the wealthy to make more money. It’s all about money. Providers can now sell premium access to anyone willing to pay. No pay? Slow service.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Of course it sucks and I think it will be undone.
Even the big tech grants are rebelling.
Probably because on a slow and restricted internet no one is gong to bother with internet at all.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Ah ok

lol

Breitbart wrote:
The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) passed the FCC’s “Restoring Internet Freedom Order” on Thursday, which will repeal the agency’s 2015 net neutrality regulation.
Chairman Pai told Fox News host Tucker Carlson on Monday, “I think what net neutrality repealed would actually mean is we once again have a free and open Internet. The government would not be regulating how anyone in the Internet service providers, how anyone else in the internet economy manages their networks.”

The FCC’s Restoring Internet Freedom order will reclassify the Internet as an “information service” compared to the FCC’s 2015 net neutrality order, which regulated the Internet as a public monopoly. The order will also require Internet service providers (ISPs) such as Comcast or Verizon to release transparency reports detailing their practices towards consumers and businesses.

The FCC’s net neutrality repeal order will also restore the Federal Trade Commission’s (FTC) traditional authority and expertise to regulate and litigate unfair, deceptive, and anti-competitive telecommunications practices without onerous regulations and increased cost.

On Monday the FCC and the FTC agreed to share the responsibility to police unfair ISP practices regarding unfair or deceptive practices to block, throttle, or promote web content.

Chairman Pai explained in an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal why repealing net neutrality will preserve a free and open internet.

Yeah that makes sense.

“Public Monopoly” is literally Socialist tyranny.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:26 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Lol “Net Neutrality” needs to be understood in the same vein as “Gender Neutrality”.
I.e. an attack on the internet.

That Google and Facebook are for “Net Neutrality” gave me some pause.

I now see “Net Neutrality” means that only those sites are going to be allowed that are neutering influences.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Capable
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 9:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah makes sense. If Obozo, Gulag, Fakebook, etc. all wanted Net Neuter-ality then I am tempted to oppose it without even knowing any of the details. But this breakdown is helpful.

I heard someone panicking over it yesterday, they said “Trump just repealed net neutrality!” Someone asked, “What does that mean?” and they replied, “it means websites can charge you to use them now”. I was like um they can already do that…

Zzz


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I’m glad you guys are keeping up with what’s happening here.

There is still a lot of fake information flying around about this.

Thanks for keeping me informed.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
Yeah makes sense. If Obozo, Gulag, Fakebook, etc. all wanted Net Neuter-ality then I am tempted to oppose it without even knowing any of the details. But this breakdown is helpful.

I heard someone panicking over it yesterday, they said “Trump just repealed net neutrality!” Someone asked, “What does that mean?” and they replied, “it means websites can charge you to use them now”. I was like um they can already do that…

Zzz

LOL

Fucking gold.

But yeah. That was my sense too - ‘Wait what, Obolko did something moral? Eh no. I don’t think so.’

Obolkonet was just a net where eunuchs worked around the clock to sabotage and censor people with potential, will.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Capable
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“Obolkonet”, hahahaha. Fucking priceless.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Stranger: I made the mistake of reading articles on net neutrality, and now I’m stressed Sad
You: Oh, haha yes I was discussing this earlier
You: Most of those articles you read are biased…
Stranger: But it is bad right? Getting rid of net neutrality?
You: It was basically a government power grab over the internet, under Obama
You: The internet got along just fine before net neuter-ality, and it will be just fine after it
Stranger: But won’t it get worse now?
You: No I don’t think so
You: Part of it is also that the FCC is more empowered now to crack down on ISPs who abuse the law, for example they cannot deny you service in the economy for arbitrary reasons, same reason McDonalds cannot deny you service based on arbitrary stuff like what books you read or what you wrote in an essay
Stranger: But websites can charge you to use them now
You: They already can, that has always been a thing
You: Ad revenue still exists, that hasn’t changed
Stranger has disconnected

TOPKEKZ


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
That might have been me you were talking with.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: No more net neutrality? Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Lol

Summary of value ontology View previous topic View next topic Go down
Go to page : 1, 2 Next
Author Message
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Summary of value ontology Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
First Definition

Value ontology is the interpretation of “being”/“the world” as composed of beings, subjects. It explains the structure of a subject as a mechanism whereby substance is assimilated in terms dictated by the nature of the subject. This assimilating is done by “valuing”, that is, selecting. This selecting requires a standard, a ground value. This ground value is perpetually being set by and as a fundamental mechanism, that sustains itself by restricting its selection of its interactions with the outside to the type that sustains it.

Value ontology therefore refers to a logical circularity that is expressed in temporality as a circuitry tending to expand itself by integrating what it encounters while maintaining its integral structure.

The theory explains why what exists exists and persists through time, by making it evident that whatever does not have a “self-valuing” (such a mechanism by which a standard is maintained that serves to keep this mechanism operative) can not maintain structural integrity, i.e. can not persist.

Exact Explication

“Values did man only assign to things in order to maintain himself- he created only the significance of things, a human significance! Therefore, calleth he himself “man,” that is, the valuator.”
(Zarathustra, of the Thousand and One Goals)

Fundamental to mans consistent being-as-himself, is his activity of valuing in terms of himself. By this he assimilates material and grows as himself. How is a consistent valuing possible? The simple answer would be: by being a consistent subject. But this only create a a circular argument, and leaves open the question of how there can be a valuing, a being. How does a subject maintain its perspectival consistency, its structural integrity, whereby it values in terms of itself? To explain this we must posit a self-valuing, which is to say, a holding-oneself-as-value, whereby this “oneself” is nothing else than this consistent holding-as-value, in engaging the outer world. This consistency of a self-holding standard-value, is what amounts to being, the accumulation of more and more material to feed and sustain a structurally consistent growing, “a becoming”.

We are faced with the problem of identifying in technical, specific terms what this self-valuing is. We may not be able to describe or define it in the terms we are used to, in which we like to acquire knowledge, the terms which are developed to describe the manifest in exact measurements. The collection of these terms and their proper logic, that of mathematics, is what we refer to as exact science.

Observing the manifest world in scientific terms, we use principles such as quantity, causality, energy-tranferring and interacting, motion, temporality. All these are enabled and interconnected by the laws of mathematics, which is the logic of objective equalies. It relies on given and exactly determined values, which can be defined in terms of each other. It is here that the philosophy of value ontology posits a break with the method of science. The philosopher is not satisfied with positing values as if they are unquestionably given, it is his task to investigate why, or more precisely, how they are given. Mathematics can not provide an answer to this, as such would go directly against the axioms of this science, which include always the word “if”. If “A” is given, then A is given as A. It does not posit that A is given - it is as if A can be anything - which is not the case. Possibilities are limited. Deepening of logical power occurs now that we have abstract terms for the possibility of existing.

The aim is to embed language into being, to absolve it of its abstracting, detaching compulsion. The means is to embed being into grammar.

The great philosophersof the modern age have attemped such positive statements in various ways, beginning with Descartes, who posited the certainty “I think therefore I am”, or, read properly in context, “I question that anything is, therefore I am”. Nietzsche and others observed that this “I” who questions is not actually given as an exactly understandable unit. What is this “I” that is, and that questions that anything is, and that posits that he is because he questions that anything is? Descartes accomplished bringing himself the experiential certainty that there is such a thing as himself. He does not bring the certainty that anything else is, in fact he calls this somewhat into question, challenges the other to reveal itself at least to itself; he does not reveal what they are or why they can be said to exist; If the only ground for knowledge of what is is to cognate in the way Descartes was doing, then only thinkers can be known to exist, and only by themselves. Clearly this is not a useful definition of being. It is also not an exact application of logic, as it assumes the “I” both in “I think” and “I exist”. The terms “I”, “exist” and “think” are not a mathematical terms: “I exist” can not mathematically be inferred from “I think”.

To draw certainty from Descartes logic, we must look at the meaning of the word “Am” in “I Am”. We must correctly observe the meaning of the verb “to be”.We must logically be satisfied with the given that what we call “being” by definition is in being (exists) - this is the only meaningful and correct way to employ the verb at all. The analytical certainty is “I am, therefore I am”. By this phrase, “I” is defined, namely, as that which, apparently, is said by itself to exist. What have we come to know by this? Nothing.

It is here that philosophy must break from science, from the pretense to be able to define the terms “I” and “exist” and “cognate” in terms of each other by exact inference. We must simply be honest, and admit that all three of these terms are simply understood by us, to mean precisely… what we understand by them! No further explication is necessary, no more exact explication is possible. The terms were called into being to describe exactly what we mean when we use the terms. They hold no deeper meaning than what they were invented to convey.

So to further philosophical understanding, that to which the terms “I” and “think” and “exist” were invented to convey must be explicated in more exacting terms. We can observe that these terms all three of them refer to the very same thing. “I”, “think” and “am” are all words indicating the same. This also includes the things to which other terms refer, such as “eat” or “walk”. As true as “I think, therefore I am” is, is also “I eat, therefore I am”. By disconnecting Descartes logic from his situation in which it emerged, we see that the “I” is posited as a condition of “think”, as much as “think” is a condition of “I”. Therefore, when I posit that “I eat”, I posit an “I” which, by common interpretation of grammar, means that I posit that (an) “I” exist(s).

We see that “I” simply means “existing” and that this existing can be expressed in the endless variety of verbs that may pertain to a posited I. That is all the I is; it allows a verb to make sense, to indicate an activity.

The I is thus always an activity.

In short, we relate activity to values, we act to express and obtain values, and these values allows us to continue acting. The values thus reflect a central value, the acting agent, the “I”, who is by all acts bestowing value on himself and so creating his world, which is largely defined by the way he encounters it. If he encounters it consistently, he becomes master over it. If he encounters it according to the ways in which the world engages him, he becomes slave to it. In a normal being, there is a balance. Happiness in mastery increasing, unhappiness is responsiveness increasing. Depression is overloaded responsiveness. The only cure for depression is physical, physiological expression of anger and undergoing the consequences with a measure of of indifferent curiosity toward ones own psychology, so that one can begin discerning ones natural values and reject imposed, unnatural ones.

To exist, one must be able to value consistently, which means that the standard must be consistent. I act so to obtain a value, an object, a thing-and-goal. But if I do not structurally attain my goals, my self-valuing will suffer. So establishing the appropriate values is implicit in existing. Since all that I do is predicated and justified by a specific type of valuing, and since “I” can only be explicated in terms of what I do, the I is nothing besides this establishing-value-to-myself. This is what we seek to maintain or repair - the activity of structurally setting attainable values, the attainment of which will result in a capacity to attain higher values. This is how power increases, by structural value-setting. In man, this needs to be conscious, because those that do this consciously win, defeat others. Man is conscious being so his self-valuing needs to be conscious in order for his integrality, his structural integrity, his ‘soul’, to survive. His intellect needs consistency.

Ontologically, in all cases the value-establishing to the I leads to a continuation of its capacity to set values for itself, this type of valuing must be understood as a constant, a type of valuing that is itself a consistency, a standard of value – which means that its consistency must be understood as an activity.

Consistency is the fundamental activity.

We can verify this in terms of the periodic table and at the same time we so verify the logic of this categorization that nature apparently produces on her own accord, by asking what makes for a consistency of an elements. We may consider the most consistent to be those which are least influenced by other elements or energies. The are the ‘noble’ elements. What make as an element noble is that it does not change internally in reaction to outward stimuli. It holds no potential for internal change, is never inconsistent with itself. It is universe enclosed in itself, all of its values are perfectly attainable, for ever. Gold is this absolutely active; it holds in its structure the maximum amount activities, its many electron rings are filled, its inner tensions are all in play. Maximization of activity within a given structure amounts to a maximal consistency.

Contemplate the correspondence between consistency, activity, the noble elements, and value.

[Jakob Milikowski 2011/2012]


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides

Last edited by Fixed Cross on Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:47 am; edited 14 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
without-music
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-11-16

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:23 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
…(such a mechanism by which a standard is maintained that serves to keep this mechanism operative) can not maintain structural integrity, i.e. can not persist.
I find attractive the machinic – I want to say “metaphor,” but that term doesn’t quite apply so neatly here – image you invoke with regard to the valuing-subject. The subject is in-the-world, of course, and what is the world but a matrix of flows, intensities, lines, forces? How perfect, then, the mechanical vernacular. In the midst of a web of intensities, placed between two or more flows, the machine functions to connect, to interrupt, to re-direct, to modify, modulate, in a word: to affect the flows that simultaneously serve as its life-force, its nutrition, and as its excrement, its waste. This affect, always in-the-midst-of, always between. This affect is, of course, valuation, the subject-machine’s valuing-capacity, tendency, function. Defined in terms of its capacity to value, that machine incapable of doing so breaks down, its flows overrun it – it is eaten up by the world, it disintegrates.

And here I can’t help but quote Deleuze & Guattari, for their words currently haunt me: “Everywhere it is machines – real ones, not figurative ones: machines driving other machines, machines being driven by other machines, with all the necessary couplings and connections” (Anti-Oedipus, 1). This it is the world, the body of warring intensities and flows, a matrix of machinic chaos. Machines driving other machines: what a perfect image of the world as will-to-power (understood on the basis of self-will/value). The necessary couplings and connections are valuations. There can be no absence of valuation, for all life valuates – where it is absent, there life is naught. Rather, only differing intensities, weaker and stronger capacities, active and reactive forces, noble and slavish wills. In supplementing “machine” for “subject,” I believe the scope of value-ontology is significantly widened. Indeed, there has already been extensive work in this vein on this forum: society as valuing in terms of self, economy, politic, religion, and so on. Instead of using the subject that wills as a metaphor for what a thriving, flourishing empire does, I think a mechanistic, de-centered (de-subjected) vocabulary makes possible a more focused, less metaphoric, project. Note how Deleuze takes care to emphasize: real ones, not figurative ones, these machines. Not metaphor, but image. Not subject, but machine. The subject does of course come in to play along with consciousness, but such subjectivity is not a condition for the possibility of self-valuation; rather just the opposite. Which is to say that the self-valuing subject is not absolutely primary, it is not the most basic term of such a metaphysic, for not all valuation necessitates subjectivity. I propose, as a more foundational ontological unit, the machine. In any case, I put these thoughts forward with the hope that they will in turn spur more.
[/quote]


“…to act is to modify the shape of the world…”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
without-music wrote:
Quote :
…(such a mechanism by which a standard is maintained that serves to keep this mechanism operative) can not maintain structural integrity, i.e. can not persist.
I find attractive the machinic – I want to say “metaphor,” but that term doesn’t quite apply so neatly here – image you invoke with regard to the valuing-subject. The subject is in-the-world, of course, and what is the world but a matrix of flows, intensities, lines, forces? How perfect, then, the mechanical vernacular. In the midst of a web of intensities, placed between two or more flows, the machine functions to connect, to interrupt, to re-direct, to modify, modulate, in a word: to affect the flows that simultaneously serve as its life-force, its nutrition, and as its excrement, its waste. This affect, always in-the-midst-of, always between. This affect is, of course, valuation, the subject-machine’s valuing-capacity, tendency, function. Defined in terms of its capacity to value, that machine incapable of doing so breaks down, its flows overrun it – it is eaten up by the world, it disintegrates.

And here I can’t help but quote Deleuze & Guattari, for their words currently haunt me: “Everywhere it is machines – real ones, not figurative ones: machines driving other machines, machines being driven by other machines, with all the necessary couplings and connections” (Anti-Oedipus, 1). This it is the world, the body of warring intensities and flows, a matrix of machinic chaos. Machines driving other machines: what a perfect image of the world as will-to-power (understood on the basis of self-will/value). The necessary couplings and connections are valuations. There can be no absence of valuation, for all life valuates – where it is absent, there life is naught. Rather, only differing intensities, weaker and stronger capacities, active and reactive forces, noble and slavish wills. In supplementing “machine” for “subject,” I believe the scope of value-ontology is significantly widened. Indeed, there has already been extensive work in this vein on this forum: society as valuing in terms of self, economy, politic, religion, and so on. Instead of using the subject that wills as a metaphor for what a thriving, flourishing empire does, I think a mechanistic, de-centered (de-subjected) vocabulary makes possible a more focused, less metaphoric, project. Note how Deleuze takes care to emphasize: real ones, not figurative ones, these machines. Not metaphor, but image. Not subject, but machine. The subject does of course come in to play along with consciousness, but such subjectivity is not a condition for the possibility of self-valuation; rather just the opposite. Which is to say that the self-valuing subject is not absolutely primary, it is not the most basic term of such a metaphysic, for not all valuation necessitates subjectivity. I propose, as a more foundational ontological unit, the machine. In any case, I put these thoughts forward with the hope that they will in turn spur more.

I would agree that D&G use wonderful terminology here and this must become a part of the overall schema which we employ. The conceptual precision they bring to the table must serve as a model for us. The reason I use machinic language as a supplement – and not a substitute – for valuing/subject language is that the object-centered, non-teleological empiricist causality (however “transcendental”) which “runs” D&G-like machines is in itself insufficient as an ontological or phenomenological principle. It tends to obfuscate certain essential elements, tends to enfame these within a confining and imposed model and possibility simply because of the nature of the language employed (it may cause “horizons to withdraw”, albeit in a far “better” and more accurate/useful way than almost any other philosophical conceptual systems).

I also like valuing-subject oriented langauge because it is both precise but also imprecise, broad enough with respect to our connotations and habitually-used meanings that it can serve to identify a whole host of various sort of beings and possibilities, and it leaves the horizon wide open rather than closing it up within itself. Not that D&G overtly fall prey to such a closure, but the machinic language itself can tend to act as such a self-enclosing, an “enframing” system (to invoke Heidegger a bit here on technology, and of course language is a technology) that can co-opt possible meanings and contents before they find a chance to otherwise emerge more naturally, carefully and quietly, after-the-fact and without regard to prior mandates inherent to and often embedded invisibly and indivisibly within form/s-as-structure/structuring possibilities.

D&G’s language in Capitalism and Schizophrenia is very useful and indeed has been a large inspiration for me. I view D&G’s conceptual terminologies as models, languistic and highly useful tools to be employed, but tools ultimately subject in their usefulness and accuracy to an appeal to a broader, quieter and often as-of-yet imprecise/vague framework and possibility than these tools alone are able to capture. To approach this most sufficient frame and possibility of being we need to “impregnate” the machine with that “part” (necessity) of the machine which “speaks a different, non-object-oriented language”, which escapes the confines of boundaries and possibility for delimitation under the current systems. We must have an account of a machine which allows for the je ne sais quoi of that machine itself. D&G make good efforts in this direction, but I also see value ontology as essential here. I see valuing/subject(-ive) language and appeal as setting object-ification within what is most necessary and sufficient for it, the valuing/s goings-on (however relatively centered or de-centered as the case may be) that give rise to objects (machines, images) and to object-relations (machinic processes and functions, flows/etc), that aim to identify and carefully trace the myriad intricate and often convoluted, barely articulable interpretations at the heart of all being/s. (In otherwords I do not think we need abandon the metaphor, not at all, indeed we need to rescue it, re-value it). I think value ontology, as a supplement to D&G-like machinic assemblages, helps to keep being open before itself and to ensure that what does arise does not do so prematurely, inadequately or as the result of prior unseen assumptions.

“To speak without speaking (falsely)”… such possibilities more afforded through the poetic or aesthetic experience become necessary methods if our ontological approach is to avoid falling prey to an objectivist-empiricist reduction. I worry that machinic language in itself or as a/the conceptual basis/ground flirts with this sort of reduction.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:58 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Indeed, the core of the self-valuing entity can only be described, objectified, as a machine. It does what it does because of an inevitability that we may deduce from being, our own being and whatever this implies… We may deduce it from what we know, the full extent and depth of it. We can not indicate anything that exists without seeing how it must hold itself as a standard with the aid of what we perceive as some mysterious force or quality. Gravity, strong force, the facts of nature we can not penetrate into by isolating the things they pertain to from us, these are expressions of what we can understand when we take ourselves as a model for such machinery.

This is where the distinction between subject and machine dissolves. A subject is a machine. We are conscious, yes – Parodites is making vast strides in describing what this particular form of self-valuing/machinery is, how it stands apart, what it produces, what we may attain with it, and what we may/can/must value in it., as ourselves. I have identified the other way end of the scale – but the mechanism, the machine is still the same. We perish if we do not function as such a machine. Therefore, as vast and interesting and even crucial to know in order to aim for our ends the difference between the subject and the atomic machine is, they are still. under the definition of value ontology, identical at their basic machinery.

So, in line with what Capable says, We must affirm a more object-based descriptiveness within value ontology, and refer to what now stands in Production under “naive valuation” – the concept of valency. This derivative of the concept “(to) value” stands precisely between the valuing “subject” (self-valuing/self-sustaining standard) and that what it values, “the world”, the other, the object. It is in this medium of the universe, the true “ether”, entirely a matter of possibility and correspondence, where “all is properties and situations”, that we may identify the machine-like infrastructure, the circuitry of the machine.

We can not penetrate deeper into the core of self-valuing than by knowing comprehensively our own self-valuing. This is the phenomenal/phenomenological task before us, and this is the perspective that I hold in regard to a new ethics. Very elementarily, we take our organism as the axiom from which to penetrate into the logic of the atom. In this, the subjective, including what we refer to as consciousness, stands logically prior to the things from which it is seen/interpreted to emerge/be constructed. So the study of phenomenology and ontology now must be a study of psychology, but not the categorizing kind, rather a new direction (of which the 21st century has seen preludes) – something we may call experientology. The categorizing not of “effect” of “substances” but of modes of being, as recognized and categorized by beings as resulting from a certain “brew of passions” which is enabled by a certain valency-structure. This is and has always been the study of economics and politics, the true social sciences, working mass-psychology. We have just found its proper terminology, the scientific language for the subjective – the means to objectify subjects into machines without devaluating them.

There remains the fundamental difference between a machinic object (a car, etc) and a machinic subject (a self-valuing). We may however understand now why we create machines around us, and why they so easily fit our valuing system. Our cosmos is host to and product of a machinal structure. At the core of all machinery is (identified from a human perspective) this machinal inevitability that is also at the ground of evolution - a mechanism that only in retrospect appears as logic. From its own perspective this mechanism can not be exhaustively conceptualized, but we must, as Capable notes leave room for the undefined of the machine, that makes it so distant from an automobile which only functions by knowing exactly what it does – the quality of the machine that makes it not a tool, but a tool-wielding, interpreting all machines as its own functions. We can only approach and delineate this. What we can define is that which approaches and delineates it – valency.

In order to articulate the categorical science of valencies, our area for objectification, it is useful and necessary to understand the subject and its non-conscious counterparts in terms of the machinal. But at the same time we have an overlap, a twilight zone between the visible / technical and that ‘je ne sais quoi’, the area where valency becomes value, where our approach is suddenly reversed mid-course without changing direction of its course inward – the realest and most bewildering revaluation of values – the moment where the machinal, first approached as the most precise, as we touch on its core appears entirely imprecise. This is the moment where “the severest self-legislation” is required, which means not only to set laws for oneself, but to set oneself as a law. Science has not been supported by ego’s strong enough to attempt this - it has so far been the domain of the Camelof Zarathustra’s metamorphoses of the spirit.

With the introduction of value ontology into science, there is an “I will” required. Science must deliberately impose itself on its subject matter, in order that its subject matter does not impose itself any further on him. The “I am” of science is still very far away, we stand at the beginning of penetrating into the machinal, the “machinery of the universe”, by introducing ourself into its vital functions.

For this to become viable, tenable, this “self” has to be elaborated and even ‘celebrated’ like never before. The perspective, for every ontic machine is a perspective, every perspective is a machine, must be the new ‘atom’ of a new science. This will require an entirely new scientific caste – to which end we can only begin to inspire new students, seedling-thinkers. To this end the language of the machinal could be employed effectively – to draw out, “lure” rigorous, scientific minds into a realm of self-knowing by allowing the notion of self-valuing to express itself in the language of the machinal. We should appeal to the hardest, toughest and proudest with our project, for it carries the potency to bend the strongest steel, to shape everything around its dynamic core.

To make circles out of straight lines. value ontology does for logic what the notion that the Earth is spherical did for mans awareness of himself in relation to the cosmos. It places the limits of the subject (of logic) within itself, and describes the mechanism/cosmos wherein it exists in terms of the consequences of this centering. So as “gravity” first became the core from which effective physics emerged, so “valuing” becomes the core from which an effective thinking can emerge.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Value ontology therefore refers to a logical circularity that is expressed in temporality as a circuitry tending to expand itself by integrating what it encounters while maintaining its integral structure.

“[This] is not what is produced but what is original, and it is produced only because it is. It is therefore already in every thing which is. The power which flows forth in the mass of nature is essentially the same as that represented in the mental world, except that in the former it has to combat the preponderance of the real, as in the latter the preponderance of the ideal. But even this antithesis, which is not an antithesis according to its essence but according to mere potency, appears as antithesis only to him who is outside the indifference and glimpses the absolute identity itself not as the original one.”

  • Schelling

Quote :
[Self-valuing] explains why what exists exists and persists through time,

And the principle itself can be seen as underlying the mechanism of time.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:20 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Value ontology is, obviously, an ontology–that is, it claims knowledge of Being in some way. The knowledge it claims is that beings are self-valuings. This is to say that every being is a self-valuing. But it does not mean that every being values itself as a self-valuing. Only those who accept value ontology can value themselves as self-valuings, as opposed to simply as selves. For those who accept it, however, valuing themselves means valuing themselves as self-valuing-valuings…

One may distinguish between four basic levels of self-valuing.

  1. Most of existence consists of self-valuings who, however, have no knowledge whatsoever of themselves. That is, they value all things in their grasp in terms of themselves, but that is all they do. They have no notion of themselves.
  2. Some of existence consists of self-valuings who do have a notion of themselves. These are what may be called animate beings or the “souled”.
  3. Among the latter, there are those who, at least in theory, can know themselves and thereby the whole of which they are parts. These are usually called human beings. (Note that a human being in this sense need in theory not be a member of the species homo sapiens sapiens.)
  4. Among the latter, there are those who actually knows themselves (or at least can know themselves in practice). These are the ones who know that all beings are self-valuings.

If the self one values is a self-valuing, then one’s self-valuing is self-valuing-valuing; and as all selves are self-valuings, all beings are self-valuing-valuings. But in most beings this is unconscious. That is, most beings are unaware of just how alike they are to others. The vehemence of the adversity springing from this ignorance may even be proportionate to how close one is to enlightenment in this regard! Is there greater adversity than among so-called “human” beings, whether they have different skin colours or be fans of different football clubs or belong to different sects? And in fact, they are not wrong, as far as their self-knowledge is concerned; they cannot value the other, because he does not match what they hold to be their defining characteristics (note how football fanatics tend to be much less intolerant, in fact often do not even notice, those who do not care about football at all). An enlightened football fan would be one who realised that fans of the rival club love the same sport, and that that love is what makes one a football fan. Well then! An enlightened self-valuing is one who realises that all other beings value the same thing, namely self-valuing! This however means that the peak of self-valuing is to value all beings, to value the whole, to value Being itself. Nay more, it means that this is what all self-valuing is. But there is conscious and unconscious self-valuing. An enlightened self-valuing would value enlightened self-valuing the most, would value self-valuing more the more conscious it is. And this leads naturally to the preference of the souled above the soulless, the human above the non-human, the enlightened above the unenlightened. It leads naturally to a politics of soulfulness, of humanity, of enlightenment."

Sauwelios
Humanarchy


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:02 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

The soul and its excess, Ouroboros in/against time rather than above it.

this is selfvaluing and the pathos of distance it creates
the tangents of its dunamis hook into those of others, and thus we get friction called society.

Law and crime, status and disgrace, growth and error - the seams of the flower mark these… judgments.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:05 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Dualities and making judgements (prejudging) are concepts I speak to often on the Taoist forum.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I am curious, Sisyphus, would you say a Taoist judges judging?

Ive often heard it say that one shouldn’t judge, for judgment is divisive and imperfect. But this is a judgment. A judgment on judgment.
It raises the conundrum to the second power.
Someone judges, then judges himself for having judged.

My judgment is that judging is what keeps us alive. Our joy is in refining our judgments and in strengthening our responses that follow from them.

“And the good saw that it was good” - “And the good saw that its seeing was the good” - circular judgments of positive existence, which is positive existence itself.

To cease judging means to dissolve. Many Buddhists aim for this. But to wholeheartedly judge all contradicting states and also their states of contradiction as good, is to fully self-encompass, to value all of which one can potentially be aware, that is enlightenment. From it issues forth a love that is infinite. In that state, no self-sustaining creature, nor any mineral, can escape ones ardent love. One sees the elementary love that brings forth such being, and all else pales in that light. “Compassion” is this - a love almost too strong to endure for the courage one sees in every single effort to live independently, i.e. to give freely of oneself in order to make a path.

Infinitude of possibility brought forth love as the most comprehensive resolution of that possibility. All else is just reference to these two, lesser forms of truth, partiality against partiality, paradoxically, partiality against being itself, and thus against ‘the whole’ - might it choose to exist.

The whole can not be loved as a whole. Being is loved in recognizing detail and nuance, in its ‘work’ - this is how a woman wants to be complimented as well, and how children must be raised - you don’t address the “I” of the child, you address its actions, which represent his far deeper identity, his world-shaping selfvaluing rather than his panicky survival circuit.

Apparently small children can’t conceive of “I” - this is taught. Selfvaluing is always a “we”.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Note that I added the word prejudging in my above post. This is a rather difficult subject in Taoism and I enjoy getting involved in all the discussions concerning it.

Yes, we all judge. Agree, it is what helps keep us alive. What I always key in on is the prejudging. And I don’t care too much about the need to “right” and thereby judge the other person “wrong”.

It is said that the Sage acts spontaneously. There is no conscious judging involved. A situation presents itself, the situation is dealt with, and then let go of. That is all. Was he right or wrong in his actions? He doesn’t worry himself with such matters.

Prejudging is what we should avoid. Making generalized statements is another. And, of course, dualities as much as possible (good/bad, beautiful/ugly, etc). To avoid this as much as possible I opted for useful/useless (to me). This way I can determine something useless to me but it may well be the exact thing someone else was in need of. This isn’t judging the item but rather judging my needs (wants, desires, etc).

In Chuang Tzu’s stories we see judgements all over the place. We can even see them in Lao Tzu. But both avoid prejudgements in the most part even though some arguments could bee made.

There is nothing wrong with judging that a meal does not have enough salt or that this woman who is making up to us doesn’t turn us on.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:38 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sisyphus wrote:
Prejudging is what we should avoid. Making generalized statements is another. And, of course, dualities as much as possible (good/bad, beautiful/ugly, etc). To avoid this as much as possible I opted for useful/useless (to me). This way I can determine something useless to me but it may well be the exact thing someone else was in need of. This isn’t judging the item but rather judging my needs (wants, desires, etc).

Nice wording but does it ring true? Prejudging a new object/subject, prejudging potential, prejudging the old object/subject unawares of new aspects/growth? Prejudging as in no prior experience with?

A sage lives in the moment and performs accurately? What is a sage?

I do what Fixed is asking all the time, I judge my judging, but a sage doesn’t need to? I’m not buying that.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:56 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:

Nice wording but does it ring true? Prejudging a new object/subject, prejudging potential, prejudging the old object/subject unawares of new aspects/growth? Prejudging as in no prior experience with?

Yes, it really does ring true. This is linked to the concept of expectations. If we constantly place our expectations on others we are going to be constantly disappointed. To prejudge a person because of their skin color is insane. To prejudge how long a coffee maker will last will almost always find you wrong. We prejudge and place our expectations on others way too often. Likely many great opportunities will have been missed.

A sage lives in the moment and performs accurately? What is a sage?

The Sage is one who can travel anywhere on the planet and not offend anyone. He can walk through a village, invisible, and leaves no tracks. He lives spontaneously, doing only what needs be done, never under-doing or over-doing anything. And he never allows himself to get involved in any kind of conflict.

I do what Fixed is asking all the time, I judge my judging, but a sage doesn’t need to? I’m not buying that.

You are the worst judge of yourself. You will always judge with prejudice. I have been asked numerous time who/what I am and all I can do is to state that this is not for me to say. It is up to those who feel the need to judge to make those judgements.

It is true, the Sage does not consciously judge. We might say that his/her actions are inspired by the subconscious or by instincts but no conscious thought is involved. There are no questions like “What if …” (S)he does what needs be done and that is all. Judgements by others to what (s)he has done matters not.

I know that this is difficult to grasp because it implies one acting from a perfect altruistic essence. I regularly get the argument that there is no such thing as altruism. I always disagree.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:17 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There’s much romance in Taoism or your version of it. Growing sleepy. Until tomorrow.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“Things are not the way they are, they are the way we are.”
(Talmudic saying)

This is in accordance with Sysiphus’ policy of not judging what a thing, person, or situation is, but what it’s value is to him. The wise one judges himself: he establishes whether he has any use for the appearing thing, or not. I find this wise and inscrutable.

My path consists much of such practice, I practice it wherever no red lines are crossed. But the way I am and love myself, I have plenty of red lines. When someone crosses that line, I judge that not only have I no use for that persons actions, but I consider that person to be an ill in the state he is in. In the same way as I judge a disease not only in terms of not requiring it, but with a bit more aggression, so I judge sick individuals, those whose actions have spoken loudly enough for me to know what to expect.

Once I judge another, I no longer judge myself. I know I cant afford to do both. Once I have judged myself as having less than no use for a persons insistent violations of my values (what it comes down to), I will shift my judgment to that person, and set myself to destroy his capacity to influence me or my environment. I take immense joy in this, as I know that once I have come to such a resolution and resolve, I am fighting not only for myself but for my entire world. The world I want to live in, and that wants me to live in it: once my red line is crossed, I know I have my whole ‘nation’ behind me. Even though my ‘nation’ is still small, it’s hard as diamond at its core and it will vanquish more than anyone here imagines, myself included. (I dont tend to imagine into the future, I just build on principle and sometimes receive visions based on observing history and current narratives)

This is a consequence of knowing valuing to be primacy. It allows for the spontaneity of judgment Sisyphus describes, but commits to judgment beyond a certain threshold, and from there on it becomes a straight line. Very much like the picture I posted.

A form of pain is a result of this, the social friction that Taoists generally want to avoid, this is the pot I like to stir… the world is my soup, my cauldron, as I stand over it with a rod…

Whereas only judging oneself in terms of ‘do I value this/that’ is perfectly healthy, judging ones own judgments is a disease. It is what westerners have been taught to do, and get cancer because of it. Judging is being itself, and to be structurally mistrustful of it, is to ruin ones mind and body.

Judge as you judge, but realize it is a judgment of your own situation.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 4:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I edited out a bunch of personal info here, its not the thread for it.
Still I’ll leave this remark standing:

Only my lovers know me. That is axiomatic, by the way: only love can know. Hence, no knowledge is objective - “objectivity” is the possibility of love, of deciphering a moment into pure being.

Once you’ve known unfragmented love, pure positive judgment, you know death is of no concern. Whatever really matters is beyond the strain of moment upon moment - it pervades the ground of everything, and is always the final consequence. Nihilism is little else than impotence before such love.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
There’s much romance in Taoism or your version of it. Growing sleepy. Until tomorrow.

So I put you right to sleep, did I?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:

My path consists much of such practice, I practice it wherever no red lines are crossed.

Yes, the red lines, the limits we have established for our interaction with the universe. These limits dictate how and when we must judge. This actually goes beyond my useful/useless concept.

Actually, I think it is fair to state that if we do not have established limits (red lines) we do not have a functional life philosophy.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:

Once you’ve known unfragmented love, pure positive judgment, you know death is of no concern. Whatever really matters is beyond the strain of moment upon moment - it pervades the ground of everything, and is always the final consequence. Nihilism is little else than impotence before such love.

That is pretty profound. Maybe you could consider working it up a bit more, say like a little article?

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed is a beautiful writer when invested and his insights pull you in to his gold mind. You must pen many books that mix renaissance poetry (Moby Dick keeps popping into my head for some reason?<—Not renaissance, but powerful writing I guess. I’ve never read Moby Dick.) with modern tensions. You mix potent imagery with your love of words and what exists is glorious. I’m a bit of a fan.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I’m confused by this endeavor of judging value as useful or useless against my needs. If my needs are unchanging as well as an unchanging object/subject, then it would make more sense with regards to a permanent judgement otherwise I just can’t grasp how to judge on the fly without really understanding what I’m judging. Further more, what about timing is everything and not being a shortsighted fool?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:09 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
I’m confused by this endeavor of judging value as useful or useless against my needs. If my needs are unchanging as well as an unchanging object/subject, then it would make more sense with regards to a permanent judgement otherwise I just can’t grasp how to judge on the fly without really understanding what I’m judging. Further more, what about timing is everything and not being a shortsighted fool?

Nice comments about Fixed’s writing.

But, to judging/valuing:

From my perspective, not speaking for Fixed,

Our values change through life until the time we have attained inner peace and contentment. That is, we place importance on our external environment and do our best to attain that state of being satisfied. We must judge in order for this to happen.

Over time we begin to hold values that are important to us only. Nothing to do with our external world. We have judged these values as being useful for us toward our attaining inner peace and contentment. Those things that do not add to, or even distract from our inner essence we judge as being useless.

Fixed has a different way of saying this and that’s good. His learning experiences are surely very different from mine.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Challenges to our peace cannot lead to unexpected growth?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
Challenges to our peace cannot lead to unexpected growth?

Of course they can. Thing is, if the challenges have upset our inner peace then our peace wasn’t as secure as we thought it was and tht means we have more work to do.

And remember, I am speaking to only our inner peace. Our peace with our externals are always being challenged. That is part of the dynamics of life.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
WendyDarling
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 341
Join date : 2016-06-18
Location : @home

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don’t see how those modes operate independently, the internal and the external. If the internal is not affected by the

external are you living life to the fullest? Also by unexpected growth I meant our own as well as anothers, simultaneous

occurrence. By inner peace, you mean the perfection of love and joy mixed? I’ve only felt this three times for a period long

enough to realize what it was. It is the absence of fear and the acceptance and harmony with existence, which leaves you

with simply peace. Others were not in my company during those experiences.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
I don’t see how those modes operate independently, the internal and the external. If the internal is not affected by the
external are you living life to the fullest? Also by unexpected growth I meant our own as well as anothers, simultaneous
occurrence. By inner peace, you mean the perfection of love and joy mixed? I’ve only felt this three times for a period long
enough to realize what it was. It is the absence of fear and the acceptance and harmony with existence, which leaves you
with simply peace. Others were not in my company during those experiences.

Yes, we are talking about the same thing.

Internal: I have everything I “need” and I’m not having any internal conflicts (I’m not arguing with or disappointed with my mental condition).

External: This easy hair is broken and I need a new one. or My friend really pisses me off sometimes.

No, they don’t operate independently but I think that the two operate from different levels. The internals are based in our needs and the externals are based in our wants and desires. If we can keep our needs separated from our wants and desires I think we would have a better chance of attaining inner peace and contentment.

I don’t talk about love too much. To many attachments to the word. Joy, I would equate with contentment. Love, I would likely equate with peace, or perhaps no negative emotions; perhaps even emotionless - just being.

Yes, I’m sure many of us have the experience you spoke of but we fail to recognize the significance f it and more important, the conditions that led to that state. (What conditions caused us to be in that state of “just being”?

Summary of value ontology View previous topic View next topic Go down
Go to page : Previous 1, 2
Author Message
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Hi-D wrote:
I’m confused by this endeavor of judging value as useful or useless against my needs. If my needs are unchanging as well as an unchanging object/subject, then it would make more sense with regards to a permanent judgement otherwise I just can’t grasp how to judge on the fly without really understanding what I’m judging. Further more, what about timing is everything and not being a shortsighted fool?

As I wrote yesterday in a congested and deleted response, timing is entirely crucial, but it rests on the ground of consistency. One can not time well if one does not have permanent grounding.

In Kung Fu, or Aikido, or other ancient ‘dances of life and death’, the sole aim is to solidify ones body, physiology and mind so as to be able to produce the perfect spontaneous response to any given situation. Perfect in terms of what?

Exactly. That is the question.
The East Asians have arrived at a bottom line standard here which can be pointed out with words like aesthetics, cleanliness, purity. But we western philosophers are moving beyond this as we speak. A comprehensive answer to the bequest for a standard, life will provide to us individually, as we walk across the threshold of an age of greater humanity… guided no longer by the sky or the earth, but by philosophy, by an awakening to ‘raw valuing’, which, by the way, is experienced as a burning heart when it commences to take hold of a heart that has been placed by its owner on the altar of some deity or void.

Awakening hurts, and making judgments that result in further pain is required… only to those to whom the pain of tedium and nausea of the indirectly-valuing humanity has grown intolerable, the pain of standing utterly alone in the universe as a potential center (the solipsist makes an empty claim) is also a pleasure, a nektar.

Still introducing.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Summary of value ontology Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:48 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A next phase is a demonstration and explication of VO.

Ive decided today, on recommendations of Pezer and in light of Capable’s valuing, to accept the arrival of the end of the forum phase, and continue the teaching of my philosophy through music.

It was this particular clan, which itself is the original explication of VO, that allowed me to step into music with absolute freedom - such freedom is the only absolute - and now Ive succeeded in setting a musical standard for my friends. The proof in the pudding.

This is only possible as a resolution now that the basic logos has been spread around the web and Trump has been elected in its spirit. The first phase of the work has been completed. The second part of the trajectory to 2023 began with Wolf Child.

As concerns the first phase: All of what we have written so far will be proliferated, by physical publications as wel as reposting. It forms a backdrop to the music as well as a world to which the music is a portal. This is the beginning of many beautiful friendships, and of friendship even of man with the Earth.

What does the world run on? View previous topic View next topic Go down
Author Message
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: What does the world run on? Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Oil?

No.

Money?

No.

Power?

Maybe.

Truth?

Not sure.

Philosophy?

Possibly.

But only in the reverse, maybe.
—-

What is under the surfaces of (the reversals of) philosophy’s governance of things? On what do humans rest their valuings?

I have an answer: a taste of freedom.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Perhaps a person becomes convinced to remain in slavery because being so enslaved he/she is able best to formulate a taste of freedom. Because he does not have it he therefore is able to desire it.

This thread belongs in psychology perhaps. Oh well fuck it.

The moral soul, a beautiful spirit, a heart overfull with sensitive feelings and a natural revulsion for all things crude, banal, crass, simple, insensitive, bawdy, unwholesome… such a soul as may possess also the intellect required to forgo religion and all superstitions, save one—the myth of goodness, or rather the clinging to goodness that remains unseen or unexpressed, at least far from adequately known much less willed to be known, and therefore is able only to know what is good through myth, as myth, as a kind of despising of any breaking of the dawn over the quiet landscape of the undisturbed soul, so replete in the tranquil conscience, and which would therefore shield its eyes from sunlight for finding the glare too harsh and unforgiving, yet still cannot find too much in common with the creatures of the night either; a poetic soul, therefore, who longs most for what he is steadfast in never possessing, namely a kind of freedom that would make the desire for freedom wholly unnecessary, and what could be more terrifying, more demanding, more painful, more unpredictable, than… freedom actualized? I’ve known only one person who took the true leap of faith, of the heart, as soul, and transformed themselves. I’ve done so but not of the heart and soul, rather of the mind. Other spirits walk quietly and quickly through the forest of the new, at dawn or dusk, always, but never linger long enough to see a sunrise or a sunset. I, on the other hand, see only… sunrises and sunsets. I long to transform as another has, but it is not so for me, because to transform the mind imposes certain criteria upon later transformations, and perhaps even the capacity for a mental transformation and freedom earned thereof necessesitates a kind of prior state of inability for certain emotional transformation when undertaken outside of the most ideal and perfect environments. But I have my freedom, and so I do not desire freedom, in fact I find that often the suffering of it balances overly against the pleasure and gain of it. But gain and detriment are already the words in the mouths of the dead, and we shall not sully ourselves here after the fashion of the dead. Rather we speak of pleasures and of sufferings, desires and the absences of desires, perhaps we may even speak of power and its lack, at times; yet how much of this truly runs the world? The very fact that we are supposed to think it runs the world, and the fact that we indeed do think this, remains the greatest thorn in the side of this supposed fact’s certain conquest over the philosopher.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
1 5 14 14
4 9 19 19


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:06 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Brilliant.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Pezer
    builder
    builder
    avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:42 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Lol, fool, it’s fear. And the pride that covers it.

If it weren’t for that pride, fear would not be so prevalent over the others. Like a dam.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
But this is the stuff of eons.

What right have you to speak of any of it?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:13 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
7

7


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:19 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
13 25 8 5 1 18 20 4 9 5 4 20 15 4 1 25

4 7 8 5 1 9 2 4 9 5 4 2 6 4 1 7

4 | 785 192 495 4264 | 17

(2397)

717


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:24 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
(M)isanthrop(E)

^ good name for a band.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
i now formally withdraw myself from all things political.

this world can burn.

if i find an isolated value that is worth it to me then i will value it, direct and out of context if needed.

fuck tectonics.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
strong valuings are always disconnected gems in the dark. no tectonics underlies them. worlds are separate.

i have removed my books, because they were based on a faulty theory.

there is no order, there is no chaos.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:34 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Agree about these gems in the dark.
A reverse of mining.

The gems have to mine their world for things to shine on.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Capable
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Mon Jul 09, 2018 12:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
now i’m seeing there are connections, worlds, they’re just not “universal” in a reductive sense. well that’s probably a good thing.

worlds are made out of dust, like adam. our universe-reality is a multi billion year old world, our planet is another little derivative world inside that. i’m sure that tectonics structure the ascent and descent between worlds.

earth is a gem of the universe geology. and life is a gem of the earth geology. and human consciousness is a gem of life geology. or so
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
But this is the stuff of eons.

What right have you to speak of any of it?

What right has the sky to be above us?
What other rights would you take to create crimes?

Rather build a rocket.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thrasymachus wrote:
now i’m seeing there are connections, worlds, they’re just not “universal” in a reductive sense. well that’s probably a good thing.

It is the most excellent of things. It is the beauty of the value logic, there are only particulars, thus virtually all is hidden treasure. And hidden treasures don’t care about time, only about the one who finds them. Objectivity is a thin mist hovering low in the cave of the mind, which reflects in a pool in its midst the moon and sun through an opening in the roof. Sometimes it rains, then the mind is one with the world, or imagines so a it forgets its depths away from the openings and washes its nose.

Quote :
worlds are made out of dust, like adam. our universe-reality is a multi billion year old world, our planet is another little derivative world inside that. i’m sure that tectonics structure the ascent and descent between worlds.

earth is a gem of the universe geology. and life is a gem of the earth geology. and human consciousness is a gem of life geology. or so

So indeed.
Minerals, the beings between atoms and our lives, between light and the cosmos, I like them.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What does the world run on? Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:25 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Its true, a taste of freedom is what the world runs on. It has been that way long before there was life.

Orbits are like ordered freedoms. The perception of freedom within orderly bounds as seen from the outside.

Daemonic polarities View previous topic View next topic Go down
Go to page : 1, 2 Next
Author Message
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Daemonic polarities Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:19 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Money is freedom, but the only way to get money is to give up freedom.

Wage-slavery destroys happiness, but we are convinced that happiness is still possible so that we keep wage-slaving in attempt to consume. Consumption is the modern form of compensation for the death of happiness.

The idea of nation-states imposes a false categorical equivalence among peoples and cultures. Supposedly there is a sense in which any culture or people or society is “equal to others” on the simple basis of the fact that we have this idea of the sovereign nation-state, and regardless of the actual content and real conditions of those cultures, peoples or societies.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:49 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Freedom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose,
And nothin’ ain’t worth nothin’ but it’s free,

Kris Kristofferson

A Buddhist might say that freedom is a life without attachments.

But I think I grasp what you are saying.

We are brain-washed into thinking that we deserve stuff by people willing to lend us money (at a cost) so that we can buy what we deserve. That will bring us freedom and happiness. Really?

Nation-states earn revenue from people spending money. Of course they are going to promote the spending of money. And they even tax your wealth if you don’t spend your money.

Regarding wage=slavery: I have mentioned other places that a person should find a job doing something they would do as a hobby if they were self-sufficient. That way they can do what gives them enjoyment and they even earn money from doing it.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:27 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Most people don’t have money. If you don’t have money then you’re forced to sell yourself into wage-slavery which is tantamount to death, philosophically speaking. Money is freedom to have the basic desperate needs of life taken care of and to therefore have a possibility of actually having… a life, which without money is impossible.

I’m at the point where prolonged poverty is effectively slowly dissolving my personality. I’ve noticed it for a long time now. Emotions wear away under the crushing weight of living in a supposedly civilized self-conscious species yet being unable to even have the most basic physical and metal needs of life met without selling oneself into slavery, oppression, pain and all the bullshit that comes with “working”. The only people who can actually value work are those who get paid enough money to live a decent life not on the edge of poverty, but most people don’t have that luxury, and even the people who do are stuck in slave jobs where they basically sell out the best parts of their lives and themselves for the luxury of having some excess money.

So even that kind of money is still slavery. It’s an Orwellian nightmare: Freedom is Slavery, literally this is the reality that the modern economy has brought us. Through money, freedom becomes slavery and only the false promise of slavery becoming freedom sustains the empty gesture of the false self stuck in delusions forever about its eventually earning its freedom from chains, which of course it never will do.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It’s an absolute fucking cosmic joke what this human species calls “civilization”. No wonder no aliens have bothered stopping over to say hey.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, aliens would surely avoid us.

I understand what you are saying. I’ve been there and done that. I lived many years of my life chained to a job because there was a need for money in order to live an acceptable life away from the job.

But I made it through and reached the age to retire and had enough financial stability to retire without financial worries.

I realize that many people don’t ever get there. That’s sad. And I agree, it is our civilized society that treats the eldery with such disregard.

I demand respect. No respect? You don’t see me any more. And you don’t get any more of my money.

And it’s true, most people are in financial debt to someone. And as you stated, this limits their freedom.

But I still do not support the idea of full socialism. That’s my philosophical root belief.

I speak about “fairness” often and suggest that we (America) are far from that. Seems to me we need a different economic system in order to make life a little more fair for all Americans.

I don’t know if there are any good answers or solutions to the problem. IMO, a flat tax on all income over the poverty level would be a start but even something as simple as that likely will never happen. Of course, if we would stop gettig involved in wars that would help greatly too. But I don’t wee that happening any time soon.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:44 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah “socialism” is a meaningless buzz word, I don’t advocate that either. Capitalism is the best system and in any case isn’t going anywhere; so we must reform capitalism toward sane ends. But this will only come at a kind of phase-transition point where a threshold of understanding is reached. Marx was one such threshold, the American Constitution was another, now global neoliberal capitalism is pushing toward another. Nothing ever happens unless it was necessary all along for it to happen like that. Progress is literally the exhaustion of all other (worse, less useful) alternatives.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Normally I don’t like to complain so openly about my finances, but I’m going to break it down anyway. This is what America looks like now for “young people”:

I make around $40,000 a year. Not too bad, you might say. Well with subtracting out social security, Medicare, state and federal taxes, and paying for my health insurance that drops to $23,000 a year. So if you count health insurance as a “tax” (apparently it is, according to the supreme idiots on the Supreme Court) my actual real tax rate is around 42%, higher than the highest tax bracket.

Then you factor in my roughly $6000 a year in student loan payments and it drops to $17,000 a year.

Considering I pay around $600 a month in rent, that drop income to less than $10,000 a year. Then you got all the other bills like car insurance, heat, water, electric, phone and Internet… also apparently I’m supposed to eat sometimes, get new clothes every now and then. Can’t say I have any kind of savings or retirement at all.

I would happily go back for an advanced degree of some kind, maybe in something science related or law school, but that would run me up probably $100,000 in more debt. Maybe worth it in the long run if I could double my income, but the time commitment plus the expense of debt and lost income while I’m in school for a few more years is just too much for me. Poverty isn’t just about not having money, it’s about the psychological drain on people and their energy reserves. Without cigarettes and alcohol for example I wouldn’t be able to function during the week. So called vices are the highest necessity for the poor, of course that adds way more expense since most of the cost of alcohol and tobacco is taxes.

Capitalism defines your value by what you create that can be and is translated into monetary gain. Longer term projects such as learning or writing, art, or traveling and building up something subjectively meaningful than can later become monetizable is usually out of the question. Public school is a joke, we should scrap grades 11 and 12 and just let 16 year olds take free college classes across the board, also cut out a lot of the required courses that college kids are forced to take. A one percent tax increase on people making over a million dollars a year would yield plenty of money to start really funding higher education, then if you use the money currently spent on grades 11 and 12 in public schooling things would be just fine… but then of course the banks wouldn’t be able to take in the trillions of dollars in student debt payments they get from us. Basic reform could just start at counting net income minus student debt payments, for taxes and other purposes. Try to get a real picture of the economic situation of people today.

We have a consumption society, the US consumes over a billion dollars a day net from the rest of the world, effectively sustaining these other economies. Yet young people today have next to no disposable income, so that game is going to come to a crashing halt soon enough.

This is America, in terms of the next generation. So I pay 42% real tax rate and I’m supposed to not ask for an additional 1% increase on top income earners, many of whom use tax loopholes like what Trump does for example, to pay next to no tax at all? Lol.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I should really be pissed off about all this, but I have a pack of cigarettes here that says otherwise. Anyway it’s a good thing that I discovered philosophy, so I can at least translate much of this bullshit into something meaningful.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Yeah “socialism” is a meaningless buzz word, I don’t advocate that either. Capitalism is the best system and in any case isn’t going anywhere; so we must reform capitalism toward sane ends. But this will only come at a kind of phase-transition point where a threshold of understanding is reached. Marx was one such threshold, the American Constitution was another, now global neoliberal capitalism is pushing toward another. Nothing ever happens unless it was necessary all along for it to happen like that. Progress is literally the exhaustion of all other (worse, less useful) alternatives.

I really don’t have a problem with capitalism either. I would like to see a fairer distribution of the wealth though. No more near-slave labor. I would also like to see more opportunities for those in need. I never did like America’s welfare system. It is very corrupt and a great waste of resources.

But you are right, we don’t see changes until after the chaos has begun and the final results might be worse that what was being replaced. We have seen that over and over again.

What we need is a benevolent dictator. Mother Teresa has passed on. Maybe there’ll be another.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:01 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Normally I don’t like to complain so openly about my finances, but I’m going to break it down anyway. This is what America looks like now for “young people”:

It wasn’t too many years ago I would complain about the youth in America not putting enough effort into keeping America strong. But after being scolded a couple times I had to look at the reality of today’s youth and not from what the conditions were when I was young.

Most wealthy people who have most of their wealth in investments of almost any kind pay half the tax rate that I do. Yes, I still have to pay income tax on my Army retirement pay. The government says that it is because I didn’t contribute to the system. What the hell was I doing for twenty years if not contributing? But I really don’t complain too much about that.

You actually have a higher gross income than I do. But my net is higher because I don’t have the liabilities that you have.

I often complain about the education system in America. The cost of higher education needed to become upper middle class financially is way too expensive for most people. Therefore they never make it out of the hole they were born into. There are many countries that have much better educational systems than we do. Sure, our higher education is better than most but again, that takes lots of dollars.

And yes, IMO our health care system now sucks worse than it did before ObamaCare. And the costs keep increasing at a really disgusting rate.

I guess America will just go down the same road Rome did. We will if we don’t make changes.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
I should really be pissed off about all this, but I have a pack of cigarettes here that says otherwise. Anyway it’s a good thing that I discovered philosophy, so I can at least translate much of this bullshit into something meaningful.

Yes, being able to talk about what we perceive as problems helps quiet the monkey mind. Hehehe. And yes, smokes help too.

If more people talked about the problems more people would pay attention and maybe the politicians would actually start listening to the people.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:21 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, I don’t like to play the “generation war” things at all, I want barriers between generations broken down and more mutual understanding for instance between young and older people. But it’s true that generally speaking the middle age to older people right now are totally clueless the severity of the situation they have imposed upon anyone 35 or younger today (so called Millennials or younger).

Thanks for the words of encouragement too, by the way.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It’s also another reason to vote for Trump, he is the only candidate I’ve heard seriously talk about crushing student debt. Hillary just pays lip service, it’s so obvious she doesn’t give a shit at all. Democrats are fucking full of hot air. Fuck Bernie Sanders too, I never saw authenticity in him either, just a bunch of talking points very well polished until they shine in the eyes of naive young people. It’s obvious by now that Sanders never cared about real change, he is supporting the person who wants to perpetuate the system and who deliberately fucked over Bernie himself. What a goddamn tool.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Yeah, I don’t like to play the “generation war” things at all, I want barriers between generations broken down and more mutual understanding for instance between young and older people. But it’s true that generally speaking the middle age to older people right now are totally clueless the severity of the situation they have imposed upon anyone 35 or younger today (so called Millennials or younger).

Thanks for the words of encouragement too, by the way.

You’re welcome.

Agree, it’s almost like different planets for people my age and those between their teens and late twenties.

I can’t take any of the blame though because I have always been against the changes that have made living the American Dream so difficult for so many today.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sisyphus
Path
Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
It’s also another reason to vote for Trump, he is the only candidate I’ve heard seriously talk about crushing student debt. Hillary just pays lip service, it’s so obvious she doesn’t give a shit at all. Democrats are fucking full of hot air. Fuck Bernie Sanders too, I never saw authenticity in him either, just a bunch of talking points very well polished until they shine in the eyes of naive young people. It’s obvious by now that Sanders never cared about real change, he is supporting the person who wants to perpetuate the system and who deliberately fucked over Bernie himself. What a goddamn tool.

I have to agree with you regarding Clinton and Sanders.

I will find it very difficult to vote for Trump instead of Jill Stein though. Besides her faults, she would stop the USA getting in wars overseas and bring most of the troops home to defend the USA. And she is against the Big Banks and Big Industry running the government.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
It’s also another reason to vote for Trump, he is the only candidate I’ve heard seriously talk about crushing student debt. Hillary just pays lip service, it’s so obvious she doesn’t give a shit at all. Democrats are fucking full of hot air. Fuck Bernie Sanders too, I never saw authenticity in him either, just a bunch of talking points very well polished until they shine in the eyes of naive young people. It’s obvious by now that Sanders never cared about real change, he is supporting the person who wants to perpetuate the system and who deliberately fucked over Bernie himself. What a goddamn tool.

But really.
I actually had started liking him a bit, when the bird came to sit with him during that speech I got the idea he was maybe a good guy of sorts. Then he goes and back Clinton. The ultimately perfect negation of all the value of democracy. But what do you expect from a Socialist. Theyre scum. The value of fairness is not something they actually uphold.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Money is freedom, but the only way to get money is to give up freedom.

Yeah - there are different unfreedoms one can put oneself through - wage slavery is the most accessible one, but we must be tied down to make the money to be free. I found my path twice now and had some luck with it - I now have as my only worldly goal to make all my philosopher friends attain financial freedom. A kingdom of philosophy. You, Capable, are its central man, for one thing because you are the man that got together this forum. Since 2 years I live by only respecting factual values produced by the philosophical for the philosophical, - building, dwelling, thinking.

Quote :
Wage-slavery destroys happiness, but we are convinced that happiness is still possible so that we keep wage-slaving in attempt to consume. Consumption is the modern form of compensation for the death of happiness.

Absolutely true.

Quote :
The idea of nation-states imposes a false categorical equivalence among peoples and cultures. Supposedly there is a sense in which any culture or people or society is “equal to others” on the simple basis of the fact that we have this idea of the sovereign nation-state, and regardless of the actual content and real conditions of those cultures, peoples or societies.

I agree that the Nation is insufficient as a Value to group people underneath. In cases, it is indestructible (Russia, England, Italy) and in cases it is only an obstruction (Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Chad, Somalia, Algeria, North Korea - the list is long) - and in some cases it can go either way. The USA is the primary example of this, the Netherlands is a good example, and France is also an example, even though it is the strongest nationalism in the world, it has afforded the strongest universalism - it truly manages to press people into its fold out of sheer erotic status, evolutionary prospect. French cool is the most reliable cool. It speaks even in North and West Africa and the Levant, where French is a leading language. Therre is no way to speak or think in French while not being cool. It will thus prevail, even over English, ultimately - as Spanish overtakes English in the Americas, French will gain back a lot of ground. But back to the point - the US, and how its nationalism now functions as a splitter rather than a uniter.

A few months ago, each half of the country is mortally ashamed of what the other half is proud of. But the country has been united as a fundamental division - north and south, cold and warm, rational and instinctive, moral and traditional, trade and crop, word and deed, head and heart, Democrat and Republican. Very roughly of course, along these lines I see the nature of the division. The ethical dualism of the past has pervaded the earthy logos of wealth and made scarcity of it.

To us who grasp the nature of Value, is naturally given the work of restoring the idea of Wealth into the American constitution (sound-state) ; and to begin with we need a multi party system. Trump wins: Next elections, we move to create conditions for a minimum of three real candidates. The one after that we go for a full spectrum. This is the proposal as it occurs to me now, I guess it is realistic in that case, my intuitions tend to play out. The prospects from within a chaos of privileged forms (yes, the burden has enriched us, by forcing us to exalt ourselves above what is expected) are highly favorable for independent initiatives. The whole apparatus is paralyzed in over-extension, and cramp is what it will be going through the next years - we need to approach the State with this in the focus of the minds eye. It is not going to be reasoned with - it is going to slowly disengage itself from its extension and any outside stimulus will slow down this process.

What we are going to build is just the extension of what we have built. An internet society.
Laws will be on the program - to redraft the constitution.

I dont really see a reason to delay this any longer. Ive quite ILP, I have time to do this. The self-valuing principle is no doubt its guide - but it also commands that the draft be put in motion by American citizens. Taste demands this - taste simply for adequacy.

The American legal system is by far the most complex one that has existed on this planet. Beyond Capitalism, this system stands as the true innovation of man.

It can be reduced, honed back into a polished form, because it is law, not commerce - yang, straight lines, not yin, that which always comes back to itself —> mythical image —> Sagittarius: Centaur Chiron, teacher of Heroes dies for Prometheus gift to man and is raised to godhood as the Acher -Philosopher who makes laws under the Auspices of Jupiter.

Man as Storm is the limit of the law -
the violence that is given, which the law is forged to justify.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Arcturus Descending
    arrow
    arrow
    avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Nov 28, 2016 8:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
It’s an absolute fucking cosmic joke what this human species calls “civilization”. No wonder no aliens have bothered stopping over to say hey.

lol Oh, but they have. They just blended in. Didn’t stay long though and when they returned to their own space and time, they left “No More Visits to Earth” signs to be strewn all over the Universe.
We’re on our own - the Prime Directive has won out…and that can only be Good.


Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.

Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."

“If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.”

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I really do see that dialectics ultimately bows to daemonics. The real stuff doesn’t work in averagings, not even the few billion bits of data our brains filter out of consciousness every second are working by averages, but by clear formulas and logical commands of selection. Yeah some averaging occurs, naturally, but it is always subservient to meaning just as quantity is always subservient to quality.

True, meaningful polarities, differences, entities, end up establishing lines between each other and these lines come to constitute what those entities are and mean, to each other and to themselves. Within the parameters of such ‘lines’ the excess pools and takes shape, forcing pressures outward and inward upon every tectonic vantage.

If two different entities, daemons, happen to have similar enough onto-psycho-epistemologistical structures then they can form meta relations between and as their respective line-limits. Then the daemonics can start to get really interesting.

Dialectics occur least where things make the most sense. There, dialectical process is like the slow erosion of rock or topsoil, just a weathering. Nothing but the principle of Time itself, outside the scope of the daemon (outside of ‘entities’, beings). So yeah, obviously Hegel and Marx and all the rest idealized the End of Time in the Perfection of History, or some such nonsensical thing. Lolzkekz.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I don’t think everybody hates their jobs like you do. Maybe it’s an office job? That does sound soul draining. But good physichal jobs are apt for warriors and philosophies, because they allow for zen meditation. I found this in the kitchen (hat tip to FC), peeling potatoes for four hours, constantly seeking the optimal peeling mechanisms, peering into the whatever-the-opposite-of-nature-or-core is of the potato.

Then there was coleslaw.

But I won’t get into it. It was satisfying.

Then I used my free time to smoke too much weed and reach for the dreams of a dying soul, which death I also am grateful to FC for helping. But I’m sure I could now invest it in more profitable things, like the stock market, which I dare a philosopher to say is not fun to follow and get to know and play.

Then who knows? Freedom may arrive some day, freedom to pursue shit that only not having to make money allows one to pursue.

I have written here before that evolution works like that. Every stage must be both self sufficent and able to transition eventually.

In the past 7 or so years I have grown mounting respect for thosr you call slaves. Maybe the Venezuelan ones I’ve met are happier (well not these days, there is famine afoot), maybe because they weren’t bred to believe everybody can be middle class or pampered so much as kids. That’s cruel, to raise someone to be an aristocrat and then give them a working man’s life.

It’s the masons’ fault, of course, it was their idea that everybody should be raised as an aristocrat. Still, they abolished slavery.

If you want to change the world, so that the trully privileged can get more privilege and the working man can be left to happily work, you have to become a man that can be both and more.

youtu.be/t-HLGcTGWSY
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Capable
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:51 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Not everyone hates their jobs.

“Slaves” (people stuck in dead end jobs or crushed under massive debt or bad economic conditions) can be people we can have respect for.

Physical, repetitive, simple jobs can be nice and satisfying.

Venezuelan people are cool because they are born knowing they are going to be poor.

Just trying to get my mind around what you are saying here. And trying to discern any connection or meaning behind it, with regard to the topic, anything I have already written here, or anything else.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sun Jan 07, 2018 11:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Pezer wrote:
Then there was coleslaw.

LOL
Good memories.
The time of death-valley alley.
around the back of the Dep

I agree that manual labor is better for the soul than administrative labor.
I had an office job once, for a month I could do it, then I broke literal fevers 5 minutes in, until I received a mercy-firing.

Quote :
But I won’t get into it. It was satisfying.

Then I used my free time to smoke too much weed and reach for the dreams of a dying soul, which death I also am grateful to FC for helping. But I’m sure I could now invest it in more profitable things, like the stock market, which I dare a philosopher to say is not fun to follow and get to know and play.

Thats what Im saying. Its looking at valuing, how people are going to be valuing the next day. It requires keen psychology, as well as a lot of practical fact knowledge about events in the world. And there are more angles. It is not trivial, it is connected to everything.
Nor is manual labor often trivial.

Quote :
Then who knows? Freedom may arrive some day, freedom to pursue shit that only not having to make money allows one to pursue.

I have written here before that evolution works like that. Every stage must be both self sufficent and able to transition eventually.

I guess one state can only transition to a higher state when it is satisfied, saturated, completed, when it starts to produce excesses and comes in risk of decadence. At that point it must move on or collapse.

Quote :
In the past 7 or so years I have grown mounting respect for thosr you call slaves. Maybe the Venezuelan ones I’ve met are happier (well not these days, there is famine afoot), maybe because they weren’t bred to believe everybody can be middle class or pampered so much as kids.

Slaves like the ones Capable and I suffer of are strictly first-world phenomena:

“That’s cruel, to raise someone to be an aristocrat and then give them a working man’s life.”

Well said man. That, exactly, is what went wrong in the first world. This is exactly what led to the unfathomable ugliness of spirit in most of my generation.

Quote :
It’s the masons’ fault, of course, it was their idea that everybody should be raised as an aristocrat. Still, they abolished slavery.

Montreal revealed Mason nature to me. Very fucking lofty. But over-optimistic, indeed, if it concerns the general populace - but accurate as it concerns … well, me. The statue, the office across… life=myth, once you start making it.

Quote :
If you want to change the world, so that the trully privileged can get more privilege and the working man can be left to happily work, you have to become a man that can be both and more.

youtu.be/t-HLGcTGWSY

No matter what it takes my crickets.

LOL

yes.
T - to connect this to the OP -
what is freedom? The power to act toward a goal that one has set oneself - therefore freedom begins with the power to set goals.
“Strength sets goals.” - N

So also financial strength. Once capital is acquired, the capital will become a medium to communicate “the world” (a becoming) to the self-valuing mind, in such as way as for the world to become a medium for the self-valuing, manifested in this capital finding its paths and bedding rivers. Making history before it happens.

A further question is how to arrive at this capital. How to exit debt. This is a moral question, as debt is insidious, a psychological depressant, which is why it has been proliferated across the educated.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:04 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Freedom as a conception creates a further need than what biology imposes on the animal.
The Daemonism here is Capitalism.

Capital as Ontos,
Wealth is Excess.

Humanity is a fertile soil. It is (thus) very dirty.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sun Jan 07, 2018 12:06 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Meanwhile in Russia

pbh2.com/wordpress/wp-conten … g-head.gif


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Pezer
    builder
    builder
    avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I guess I’m just saying, you have options.

Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5191
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:50 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, definitely. I don’t even work at that job anymore, the one I had mentioned earlier in this topic. I quit it without having anything else lined up, despite having no money at the time. Because yeah, options. I won’t be stuck in some fucking hellhole.


“What are you?” asked Apollonius.

“We are gods,” said Icarus.

“Why are you gods?”

“We are gods because we are good men.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Goddamn right.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
You are both to begin with very “economically viable” artists. I know as I have worked a lot with both kinds.
Its just an artist can’t sell himself. He can’t even believe in himself, think of himself as an artist, I forget this. When I made good films, I laughed at Art. When I made music, I certainly did not figure what I was doing had merit. So it is done strictly because it is enjoyed, as will to power.

totally contrajuxtapositioning then; Pezer you need to do filmmaking. Even Bill himself liked your first with his music, called it an excellent film. But more people have been impressed. I certainly think it is excellent, Thought of a Rune, and I really am strictly actor in it, all direction is very much different from my initiatives. I had no clue what you were doing, aesthetically.

I ruined many talents by heaping praise on their seeds that had just crawled into the light. I am a resistance.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:04 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There is no money in art. That is what the artists who consider themselves artists say, as there is indeed no money in their display.
only the probing ponderer who uses some instruments and aesthetic consistencies to force a path through nothing is worth his salt.
Art as the circumference to philosophy. Philosophy as looking directly into the sun.

timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/ … quality=85
When daddy is a mason


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Pezer
    builder
    builder
    avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I might try filmmaking again some day.

It’s asthetics that bother me. I see geniouses like Kubrick, Cronenberg, that guy from Drive, and it kills me that I don’t know how to make the aesthetics serve the plot.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Thats why they have screenwriters.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Daemonic polarities Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:18 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
Money is freedom, but the only way to get money is to give up freedom.

Wage-slavery destroys happiness, but we are convinced that happiness is still possible so that we keep wage-slaving in attempt to consume. Consumption is the modern form of compensation for the death of happiness.

The idea of nation-states imposes a false categorical equivalence among peoples and cultures. Supposedly there is a sense in which any culture or people or society is “equal to others” on the simple basis of the fact that we have this idea of the sovereign nation-state, and regardless of the actual content and real conditions of those cultures, peoples or societies.

I think that the way to give up lest freedom must have eto do with the direct engagement of money as such; one to love money or find a way to actually love its nature, to be free in gainig it.

This speaks to, for example, both stock trading and rap music.
These are two of my paths to approach money on its own merit without prejudice toward it.

Message
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Nietzsche and the Metaphor Sat Jun 02, 2012 5:41 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Title of the thread is the title of a book in which which the writer exhibits the metaphor as the underlying way of designating of all formulaic logic. This concept is not unknown or uncommon by itself, but it is interesting to notice from the constant returning to the premise, that what follows as a consequence of this realization is far more difficult to control and even influence than ccould be expected of what so far had lived as philosophy. Heidegger made it apparent that it is possible to reason this way, via broad strokes of densely meaningful landscape. His metaphors were sober, real-life objects. A wise opening move, from which we have, via Deleuze and other meaningful post-x dwellers who arranged the game so that everything is indeed possible, arrived at a position to create an attack. Here the metaphor ends, because there is no opposing king.

Author Message
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: This claim is false. (linguistic justification of value-ontology) Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“This claim is false.”

Why is that possible?

The answer is remarkably simple: Because language did not originate in logic, but in differentiation.
Logic therefore can not be perfected in the form of language. It can only pertain to language perfectly.
It has proven to be a matter of locating the term that denotes the meaning of language itself. The case was so extraordinarily fortunate that this same term also refers to the basic primordial instinct-to-be, which now is understood inclusively as the inherent mechanism of self-valuing and the outwardly projected valuing in terms of this inherently perpetuating self-value.

Even now after clarity’s dawn it is only a relation to language that the “path” or truth" is found - the most pertinent value in each instance of conceptualization. Language is much of man but it is not all - but it has guided man since instinct had become madness and madness eventually mind [the birth of mind - the most terrible path nature could possibly have taken] became reason, and reason habit and custom and a path out of hell.

And here we are at the exit of this - cave soiled by million gods - there is light beyond these walls - the paintings are our memory - primordial past. The times when “Our truth” was possible, the place where the writing was on the wall, and not up in the air in song and ‘self-valuing geometry’ and different from every perspective as a clous of summerbirds as heat collects in the air and the pregnant darkness sets in.

The question on my mind is: is the cloud a self-valuing? No - there is only one self-valuing int he cycle of charge and discharge - that is the principle of lightning itself. This keeps itself in motion by being the cataclysm of two forces it values in terms of it’s self-valuing. But this principle re-incarnates from place to place in the same context and is ‘embodied’ by nature, and ‘brought to life’ with a consequence that cracks open “reality” for a moment and makes one aware of the central mechanism - the circuit of energy collection and discharge. This is “looped” in a lifeform, feeding back on itself. A combustion engine, even a wheel, certainly fire, is repreoduction a a part of the self-valuing circuit. All great inventions, from television to tea-making to proton colliders, all tap into the ‘genius of the cyclus’, which is “being”.

 a politicians word	View previous topic View next topic Go down 

Author Message
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: a politicians word Tue May 30, 2017 8:49 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In 70-90 percent of cases a politician will speak as unnaturally to the full truth as possible before an unwitting audience - and an audience to a politician is almost by definition unwitting -, merely as a basis technique to give the opponent a maximum of trouble in setting things straight, before a counter statement can be made.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: a politicians word Wed May 31, 2017 12:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Yeah, most politicians test the waters, finding out what the people want to hear, and then telling them what they want to hear. The truth doesn’t matter here.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: This claim is false. (linguistic justification of value-ontology) Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:57 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To become a whole cyclus - or better, for each day, or each moon, or year to become a complete cyclus of self-valuing - of arrival fulfillment commencement of ‘greater things’ which is always the impetus - the mirroring back of oneself as ‘potentially greater’ is essential to the expansion of matter into its various forms. Valuing in terms of self-valuing circuitry is ‘the illusion whereby power is attained’. The power attained by it is expelled into force in all ‘natural phenomena’ - technology taps into that root, but brings forth different things because it has, instead of the air, sunlight, water and soil of the earth, the mind of man as its ground, and this mind is also the ‘air’ in which it grows, and from man the budding idea receives attention like a creature receives sunlight, and in the end it must be seen to be believed - except to this flower itself and that which brought it forth - a flower is the consequence - what kind cause can we see to a flower, beyond, at the end of, it’s chain of evolution from the first atoms?


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Capable
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5192
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : calmly outside of time

PostSubject: Re: This claim is false. (linguistic justification of value-ontology) Sat Oct 22, 2016 2:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This is a common “problem” cited in analytic philosophy, the whole “this sentence is false” thing. I was writing about this in my topic about the idiocy of analytic philosophy; the Crete paradox, which isn’t a paradox at all, of “All Cretans are liars” when the speaker is himself of Crete. What it shows is that humans operate linguistically in a kind of gray area ambiguity of not understanding what they are doing or why. Language affords this gray middle space of partial unknown, a kind of surrogate and externalized partial unconsciousness. This is a good feature of language that it allows for this, and the analytics think of it only as an error and problem because these analytic thinkers are idolizing computer robot consciousness, they are all trying very hard not to be human. So naturally “human vagueness” is a problem for them, even though the vagueness in this and many other cases is a productive and healthful one.

Real problem: you are nature, so how do you get a species of somewhat becoming-self-conscious apes to externalize their unconsciousness? If it is externalized directly it is simply non-conscious instinct as all animals already have, but if it becomes more conscious then it becomes not-unconscious.

Answer: nature decides to invent a higher form of language. Humans evolved the capacity not only for very dexterous tongues, mouths, lips and vocal chords but also the key ability in the brain matter to emulate the position of all those parts an instant before they arrive at that position. This allowed these human apes to really diversify and solidify a large number of very specific morphemes of speech-utterances, the vowel and consonant sounds that we call the alphabet. This introduces an intermediary between the instinctive unconscious excess-force and the utterance itself; now this utterance is able to distance itself (differentiate as you said Fixed) from the unconsciousness excess energy of psyche and body from which the utterances actually are always coming. Every vocal utterance is (and this is still true today of humans) a kind of pressure-release of some inner unconscious and instinctive excess. Speech deep down is the mouthpiece of the unconscious. But with this middle-space now mediating the end result formation of the utterances there naturally arises a backward pressure upon the unconscious which pressure begins to retroactively organize that unconscious from which an utterance came. Hence humans learned about what we call reason.

Examples like “this sentence is false” are categorical errors of falsely conflating one thing with another. “All Cretans are liars, I am a Cretan, therefore I am a liar, therefore when I said all Cretans are liars I must have been lying, therefore all Cretans are not liars, therefore whati said is true, therefore all Cretans are liars…” this sort of thing is idiotic. It’s like a human mind degenerating into a little closed loop in a programming code. We don’t work like that, neither does language, neither does Reason, neither does meaning, neither does the unconscious. These examples only illustrate that philosophers don’t yet understand what language is and what it means when we use language to communicate something. Each of these “paradoxes” that false philosophers use to mystify college students in Phil 101 courses while stealing those kids money in the process, each such “paradox” breaks down completely upon closer examination.

Analytic philosophy is the enemy.

  before the word	View previous topic View next topic Go down 

Author Message
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 6274
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: before the word Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:08 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is believed that the first signs and sounds of language originated as religious practices.

But this is natural, and unavoidable, because the power of speech introduces the very thing that we now know as God. With language, man distances himself from himself into a separate entity, which can be inherited by people he will never have physical ties to. And this is what God is; that possibility of being by not actually being, namely by, instead of in a particular way and place, being everywhere and in every way, always. At least that is how Spinoza finally approached God as a concept within that language-magic that had evolved finally to catch up with the system of hallucinations its imperfection (namely its non locality, which prevents it from Being, to speak Heidegger, prevents it from emerging and unfolding in time) had produced in time on the soft bed of the human brain.

Now to the post that inspired me to make this thread.

Thrasymachus wrote:
Quote :
Before the alphabet was invented, early writing systems had been based on pictographic symbols known as hieroglyphics, or on cuneiform wedges, produced by pressing a stylus into soft clay. Because these methods required a plethora of symbols to identify each and every word, writing was complex and limited to a small group of highly-trained scribes. Sometime during the second millennium B.C. (estimated between 1850 and 1700 B.C.), a group of Semitic-speaking people adapted a subset of Egyptian hieroglyphics to represent the sounds of their language. This Proto-Sinaitic script is often considered the first alphabetic writing system, where unique symbols stood for single consonants (vowels were omitted). Written from right to left and spread by Phoenician maritime merchants who occupied part of modern Lebanon, Syria and Israel, this consonantal alphabet—also known as an abjad—consisted of 22 symbols simple enough for ordinary traders to learn and draw, making its use much more accessible and widespread.

By the 8th century B.C., the Phoenician alphabet had spread to Greece, where it was refined and enhanced to record the Greek language.

history.com/news/ask-history … t-alphabet

What a great connection there, right to Ancient Greece.

beforethelight.forumotion.com/t9 … ving#10563

Let us try to reach back into those times, and dig up the state of being that gave forth the word.
Or let’s at least conceive of the difficulty of that quest, and see if in our trembling before it we catch scent of a path.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Sisyphus
    Path
    Path

Posts : 1647
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: before the word Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:27 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
It is believed that the first signs and sounds of language originated as religious practices.

I don’t accept that. It would have been about survival.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sauwelios
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 109
Join date : 2011-12-15
Age : 40
Location : Amsterdam

PostSubject: Re: before the word Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
Let us try to reach back into those times, and dig up the state of being that gave forth the word.

These are two completely different things. The former (“those times”) is when the alphabet was invented–and not even written language in general. The latter, the emergence of the word, happened long before that. And I tend to agree with Sisyphus about the latter.

Quote :
[T]he power of speech introduces the very thing that we now know as God. With language, man distances himself from himself into a separate entity, which can be inherited by people he will never have physical ties to. And this is what God is; that possibility of being by not actually being, namely by, instead of in a particular way and place, being everywhere and in every way, always. At least that is how Spinoza finally approached God as a concept within that language-magic that had evolved finally to catch up with the system of hallucinations its imperfection (namely its non locality, which prevents it from Being, to speak Heidegger, prevents it from emerging and unfolding in time) had produced in time on the soft bed of the human brain.

Yes. The Logos. Logic’s self-identical “A”. The cosmic Bull conceived as not having sprung from Chaos (X) and never to exit the world stage (-os). The Platonic eidos of the bull.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi1KE-R_pLs[/youtube]

Value violations are as common as things which aren’t gold. But eventually all will be gold dust, it is the end product of natures alchemy. Pressure and time.

This will happen pretty much never, a vaguely asymptotic path of increasing slowness leads towards it, but if anything will be the case in the end it will be gold.

“…for Time and Midas are one and the same”

—fragments, olden, philosophic,

quetz

avatar

Posts : 5
Join date : 2011-12-29
Age : 54
Location : somwhere else

PostSubject: What’s wrong with value systems Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What’s wrong with value systems

Seams like sometimes the notion of value systems/judgements are assumed to be worthless, one may say; ‘that’s just a value system’ and in doing so make it seam as if ones ethics are defunct.

As long as value systems are adaptive and non-dogmatic I don’t see why they cannot be a basis in and of themselves. Moral relativism is a good thing imho but that’s surely not moral nothingness.

Lets take an extreme example:

Fucking female children can cause death via underage pregnancy [their bodies are too small for birth but may be fertile], thus it is wrong to do that.

Surely a value which works in its own right ~ even if there are other areas more questionable e.g. AOC.

btw, this is not meant as a debate about that topic specifically.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:52 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I suspect that they have a poor reputation due to being both ill defined and ill conceived.

“We ALL know that this… is bad. So lets all hate it together.”

The proposition that everyone should love or hate any particular thing alludes to mass delusion of righteousness and blind oppression. That isn’t to say that a system could not be devised void of such outcome, but I have not seen ye-ole typical onliner even come close.

The issue isn’t coming up with a system but rather finding that 1 in a hundred which is actually valid and helpful.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I’m beginning to believe that if something exists, there is at least something good about it, otherwise why would it exist?


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” -Socrates
“Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God.” -Cicero
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it.” -Aristotle
“I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If there is a door “God” put it there to be opened… but humans are just good at opening doors at the wrong time.


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” -Socrates
“Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God.” -Cicero
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it.” -Aristotle
“I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
quetz

avatar

Posts : 5
Join date : 2011-12-29
Age : 54
Location : somwhere else

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:45 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Quote :
The proposition that everyone should love or hate any particular thing alludes to mass delusion of righteousness and blind oppression. That isn’t to say that a system could not be devised void of such outcome, but I have not seen ye-ole typical onliner even come close.

The two commandments;

X is right unless Y, Z, determines otherwise. [x may equal e.g. killing, raping, or the moral in the op]
Only apply where accurate I.e. don’t assume anything [like the woman is usually right/wrong].

Quote :
I’m beginning to believe that if something exists, there is at least something good about it, otherwise why would it exist?

Because ‘things’ exist.

Or if there is a creator god, not all things are created. We change stuff, the world changes stuff. The original creation idea/manifestation becomes non-derivative.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
quetz wrote:
Quote :
The proposition that everyone should love or hate any particular thing alludes to mass delusion of righteousness and blind oppression. That isn’t to say that a system could not be devised void of such outcome, but I have not seen ye-ole typical onliner even come close.

The two commandments;

X is right unless Y, Z, determines otherwise. [x may equal e.g. killing, raping, or the moral in the op]
Only apply where accurate I.e. don’t assume anything [like the woman is usually right/wrong].

Quote :
I’m beginning to believe that if something exists, there is at least something good about it, otherwise why would it exist?

Because ‘things’ exist.

Or if there is a creator god, not all things are created. We change stuff, the world changes stuff. The original creation idea/manifestation becomes non-derivative.
Creation aside… that’s not where I am coming from… I’m thinking more along the lines that the universe cannot be upheld in its very nature without what things do exist in it… as such all things must serve some function that by being crucial to existence makes any negativity we perceive of it nonetheless ‘fair’.


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” -Socrates
“Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God.” -Cicero
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it.” -Aristotle
“I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Tue Jan 03, 2012 6:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A value system is a philosophy or “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

The problem isn’t so much having such a tree, but rather the serpents that are found within the branches.

One must be designed such as to naturally inhibit serpent sustainability and in fact, repel such.

It isn’t hard. What is hard is getting anyone to see it before they fall prey to the serpent that they already have.

It is a question of how to bring sight to the “blind of value” when their sight is blinded by the lust of presumed value. “We already know what is good and evil.” Really?

We “know” that dogma is bad. And do we know that? Well, because experience has shown us. And by what means did you observe experience if not by the eyes of value already presumed? Preseeded value guides sight, causes both blindness and awareness. Once a value system is accepted, even if injected without awareness, the eyes of the mind and heart are already shuttered. The blinders are already formed and placed. The horse is already prepared to see only what his value-system blinders allow.

The trick is to ensure that the only value system accepted is one wherein each moment is monitored for the correct concerns and filters out only what was not of the correct concerns. But to fashion that, one must know what would constitute correct from incorrect, fundamentally what is good or bad to the life itself.

Life, any life, has specific needs that can be outlined, categorized, analyzed, and labeled. Fundamentally, they are all the same for every instance of life. But beyond the fundamental category, all else is relative to the individual situation, hence from that point upward, all secondary morality is relative or conditional. What is not conditional is the set of fundamental values that allow for the life to persist at all.

Thus to design a value system that does not mislead, one must first know of what a life is and thus know its most fundamental needs for sustainability and persistence. Within that knowledge, is the knowledge of how to discern the conditions of the secondary moralities. Regardless of what those secondary moralities turn out to be, the ability to discern the conditions must be maintained, else they cannot function in accord to their own conditional restraints.

Discerning conditions or situations is called “awareness”, “sight”, “enlightenment”, and “clear mindedness”.

And in that, you have what I always have accepted as the very first concern of Life, “Clarity”.

To allow oneself to become unaware, is to force oneself into presumption, acting unaware; the very seed of sin from which ALL error/sin arises.

And there you have, merely for an example, the beginning of a value system that does not in itself confine the individual to dogmatic particulars, but rather merely states;

“Thou Shall NOT Intentionally Do What Brings Confusion to the Mind and Heart.”
Or from the more positive perspective;
“Thou Shall Always Seek Optimum Clarity of Mind and Heart.”

Serpents function by virtue of shadows, obfuscation, and confusion.
“The devil hides in the details.”

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
without-music
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-11-16

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Seems suspiciously Socratic, James.


“…to act is to modify the shape of the world…”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:

The trick is to ensure that the only value system accepted is one wherein each moment is monitored for the correct concerns and filters out only what was not of the correct concerns. But to fashion that, one must know what would constitute correct from incorrect, fundamentally what is good or bad to the life itself.

Life, any life, has specific needs that can be outlined, categorized, analyzed, and labeled.
But in exactly knowing these needs, could an amoeba have evolved to man. Evolution occurs through the combined factos fo consistent self-valuing and the random or unpredictable encounters with different types of factors and conditions, of which parts may be valued in terms of self-value and of which parts may not. Coincidence is as instrumental to evolution and therefore to life as as consistency in self-valuing, or as you call it, clarity. It is true that this consistency is logically prior to what the being is consistent towards, buit it does not hold the answers as to what it may be in itself. Not unless all the possible factors which are not itself are known by it, and this almost amounts to a logical contradiction, for knowledge also constitutes being. It seems that one would already have to be “God-like” to amount to the clarity your ethics demand.

Quote :
Fundamentally, they are all the same for every instance of life. But beyond the fundamental category, all else is relative to the individual situation, hence from that point upward, all secondary morality is relative or conditional. What is not conditional is the set of fundamental values that allow for the life to persist at all.
Which is the same as “holding itself as a value”. Can this be specifically determined, explained, explicated, categorized? I think that it can be approached, but not intellectually so much as by various types of activities, such as “kung fu” as you have mentioned (which by the way means “good work”, which is an apt summary of what we are looking for), but I can not see that it can be formulated “on paper”, as metaphysics. I wonder how you have managed to done this and to what extent this accomplished amounts to an effectively attainable ethics.

Quote :
Thus to design a value system that does not mislead, one must first know of what a life is and thus know its most fundamental needs for sustainability and persistence. Within that knowledge, is the knowledge of how to discern the conditions of the secondary moralities. Regardless of what those secondary moralities turn out to be, the ability to discern the conditions must be maintained, else they cannot function in accord to their own conditional restraints.

Discerning conditions or situations is called “awareness”, “sight”, “enlightenment”, and “clear mindedness”.
I agree with this, but with the condition that this awareness must comprise an embracing of the unexpected. There is no gain without risk. Indeed, risks can only be taken responsibly if one is aware precisely of what one wishes to gain, and where this gain is possible in the encountered.

Quote :
And in that, you have what I always have accepted as the very first concern of Life, “Clarity”.
Then it is of the greatest importance to further define this concept, Clarity.
Is it the capacity to extract value from uncertainty? If so, clarity is the same as active and consistent self-valuing.

Quote :
To allow oneself to become unaware, is to force oneself into presumption, acting unaware; the very seed of sin from which ALL error/sin arises.

And there you have, merely for an example, the beginning of a value system that does not in itself confine the individual to dogmatic particulars, but rather merely states;

“Thou Shall NOT Intentionally Do What Brings Confusion to the Mind and Heart.”
Or: You shall not value that which can not be valued in terms of your own self-valuing.

Quote :
Or from the more positive perspective;
“Thou Shall Always Seek Optimum Clarity of Mind and Heart.”
Or: You shall continuously seek to be aware of your own self-valuing.

But whereas I agree that, wherever LAW exists, this must be it, I do not think that always keeping to law is the most effective way to attain vitality, or vital experience. What is lacking her is the concept of suffering and overcoming suffering. Without allowing itself to fall prey to “sin” or uncertainty or unclarity for limited durations (limited so as for the threats not to get at the root of self-valuing) there is no possibility for the joy of extended power, overcoming, superseding ones expectations.

Compare the fate of Jesus, to stay in Biblical idiom: If he had not allowed Judas to betray him, he could not have been resurrected. By the ethics you seem to propose, Jesus would simply have avoided his capture, he would have have chosen to let the cup pass him by.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides

Last edited by Fixed Cross on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:40 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:

But whereas I agree that, wherever LAW exists, this must be it, I do not think that always keeping to law is the most effective way to attain vitality, or vital experience. What is lacking her is the concept of suffering and overcoming suffering. Without allowing itself to fall prey to “sin” or uncertainty or unclarity for limited durations (limited so as for the threats not to get at the root of self-valuing) there is no possibility for the joy of extended power, overcoming, superseding ones expectations.
Consider the last part of the post linked here.

beforethelight.forumotion.com/t7 … rime-mover

And let me extrapolate “life” to “being”. It seems to me that being, following your ethics, would always amount in noble elements, and never into something as fragile as life.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    without-music
    builder
    builder
    avatar

Posts : 37
Join date : 2011-11-16

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
We ought always to keep in mind that an increase of power, as well as joy, results from over-coming. Indeed, the strong man seeks out obstacles to overcome: he affirms his suffering in order that he may grow from it. Without “sin”, no increase in power.


“…to act is to modify the shape of the world…”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:03 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
without-music wrote:
We ought always to keep in mind that an increase of power, as well as joy, results from over-coming. Indeed, the strong man seeks out obstacles to overcome: he affirms his suffering in order that he may grow from it. Without “sin”, no increase in power.
The last part may be overstated, as the concept of “sin” as Jame uses it may refer not to the concept of uncertainty, but to not doing the utmost to increase ones structural integrity (self-harmony) in the face of uncertainty.

Of course, the the subject, its surrounding reality is always uncertain, and he can only be certain of how it applies to him, if he has in fact formulated (brought to consciousness) to himself entirely his own worth to himself, in all its technical particularities.

I doubt that this is possible, but “sin” may also simply mean “to do what is necessary to maintain ones structural integrity”, in which case, it may include a certain kind of risk-taking, within the margin of the expendable.

"We ought always to keep in mind that an increase of power, as well as joy, results from over-coming. Indeed, the strong man seeks out obstacles to overcome: he affirms his suffering in order that he may grow from it. "

Yes, this is where James’ ethics differ from Nietzsches. To Nietzsche, I would say and perhaps you would know where to find this, far greater risks and experiments are justified than what may amount to losses falling within the margin of the expendable. And I would say that nature itself takes such risks, continuously, as nature is not per definition “clear” in its intentions, it is just that the type of nature that is “clear” in this way has a greater average chance of survival. It does not however have a greater chance at greatness – for this a balance is required, a risk taking that measures the possibility of attaining enormous gains against the likelihood of death, instead of the likelihood of survival against the possibility of death.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    James S Saint
    rational metaphysicist
    rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:46 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
James S Saint wrote:

The trick is to ensure that the only value system accepted is one wherein each moment is monitored for the correct concerns and filters out only what was not of the correct concerns. But to fashion that, one must know what would constitute correct from incorrect, fundamentally what is good or bad to the life itself.

Life, any life, has specific needs that can be outlined, categorized, analyzed, and labeled.
But in exactly knowing these needs, could an amoeba have evolved to man. Evolution occurs through the combined factors of consistent self-valuing and the random or unpredictable encounters with different types of factors and conditions, of which parts may be valued in terms of self-value and of which parts may not. Coincidence is as instrumental to evolution and therefore to life as as consistency in self-valuing, or as you call it, clarity.
“in exactly knowing these needs, could an amoeba have evolved into homosapian?”.
My first thought was “Emm… knowing those needs, I’m not so sure that an amoeba would want to.”
But presuming that homosapian is in fact a higher or better life form to be taken, the answer is “certainly”.

It is true that natural evolution (no longer existent on planet Earth) depends on naturally occurring accidents. But then a natural amoeba wouldn’t be able to know of its needs.

Look at it this way…

In the interest of self-preservation, a man chooses to not sleep with a particular prostitute because he is aware of his needs as well as suspecting that she is carrying a particular retro-virus designed to reduce his particular set of genomes to a state of defenselessness.

Now is that “natural evolution”? Or is it a life being aware of its needs, aware of its situation, and making a choice to maintain its integrity? But then it doesn’t stop there…

That same man, being aware of his actual true needs, discovers a food substance that seems to have no more effect than to enhance his awareness of his situation, it perhaps improves his eye sight or hearing, or better, his clarity of mind and heart. Does he choose to eat only other things? Does he choose to only accidentally imbibe the nutrient that he has discovered? Or does he intentionally eat of the fruit that promises to enhance his survival and “will-to-power”?

Is that “natural evolution”?

The filtering process that a life imposes upon itself is the issue. It seeks to have no more accidents of consuming foods that are not of sustaining value nor continue to allow itself to be exposed to other life forms (viruses or germs) that would diminish its capacity to cope. It chooses not only to protect what it currently is, but also seeks to enhance what it currently is into something greater, stronger, more capable. It chooses to not allow evolution, natural or not, to destroy it. And it is only by that method that evolution can actually work. Evolution can’t function in a positive direction unless it is resisted fore it is a process of that very same filtering of all life, “I, Evolution, choose to no longer allow lives on Earth to choose the wrong path to survival. I dispel the effort, the spirit, the life that chooses wrongly.”

Do you choose to have Evolution make your choices for you and thus defeat its very positive nature? Or do you choose to defend against Evolution in every way you can manage so as to either lead to the eventual success of your replacement or grow to the point of not being able to be filtered out of the mix and noise and having no further need to individually grow any greater?

Man doesn’t survive by the evolution process. He merely comes closer to the lack of its ability to filter him out by ensuring more and more that each individual is in itself less susceptible to damage. When he chooses to allow evolution to filter out the “unchosen” by his own design and value system, he either becomes what life always was, or he proposes to dictate what life is. In the first case, he becomes great and eternal. In the second case, Life will End Him. So for sake of his own value ontological system, he will only survive by conforming to what Life has always been.

Thus yes, by truly knowing what constitutes true life to the last detail, even an amoeba, would ascend to the form of an eternal life, be it homosapian or what is replacing homosapian.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:13 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If you place on a list the exact constituents of the essentials of your life, a value-ontology is easy to derive;

A) That which enhances the items listed is to be valued as “good”. {helps}
B) That which destroys the items listed is to be valued as “bad”. {hinders}

It might help to remember that often a challenge, although seemingly in the direction of a bad, can actually be a good, so the degree of disruption of the fundamental self-harmony is the actual issue, not a mere black-white or dichotometric assessment of “helps vs hinders”.

The balance of the essential self-harmony guides the assessment.

It is that simple.

…well, until you get to the next stage… growth. Cool
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The problem is that can not see value directly in terms of “items”.
For me the term holds a more fluid, more rudimentarily experiential - value.

What is the used meaning of the word value? A problematic question, related to that of the word power.
Power compares to valuing in terms of oneself as the feeling of power to self-valuing.

will-to-power is what the totality of these two things amounts to, and this is “the drive” “life”, as a noun.
Will to power is a noun, where self-valuing is a verb as which this willing must be explained.

That which is good, i.e. of value, is what structurally (not momentarily) enhances the feeling of power.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Arcturus Descending
    arrow
    arrow
    avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
If there is a door “God” put it there to be opened… but humans are just good at opening doors at the wrong time.
Sometimes WE are the ones who create the door so it’s also within our OWN power to open it to enter or to leave…or to simply leave it open to see what possibilities occur.


Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.

Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."

“If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.”

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills

PostSubject: Re: What’s wrong with value systems Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:28 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
I’m beginning to believe that if something exists, there is at least something good about it, otherwise why would it exist?
Perhaps it exists for you to ask that question.
Does it exist because it IS something good or is it the meaning which we place in something which ultimately gives rise to and creates its own value?
There is nothing under the sun, at least to me, which cannot at some point be seen as having a purpose. We draw that purpose out.
We are the ones who, depending on the amount of light which we allow into our experience and interpretation, will see either brilliant colors, black, white, or shades of gray.
There is absolutely nowhere that a lemon cannot be made into lemonade. Twisted Evil
There need be nothing wasted nor lost with nature.

Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Part of the cost of socializing, domesticating ourselves and forming civilization/s has been a degree of loss of naturally-selective pressure toward maintaining (genetic, physiological or psychological) fitness. Civilization allows some individuals to survive (in evolutionary terms here ‘survival’ meaning being able to successfully reproduce) who otherwise, absent civilization, would not. This propagates a degree of unfitness across the gene pool.

This cost of a rise of unfitness is not only a necessary parallel to civilizing but is, I argue, an ethical imperative. How so? Because as humans, the “rational animal” (which is to say the animal that exercises a degree of self-control and self-direction over its own valuing capacity), we occupy a certain environmental niche unlike any other animal or living species. Our niche is one of radical environmental control and direct manipulation, and one of extremely high social dependency. Social dependency occurs in the form of language aquisition and use, establishing and maintaining a currency and other economic systems of value-extraction and exchange, prescriptive and regulative law, educating-rearing the young, cooperating in all sort of business ventures/structures aimed at producing what we humans need and want, and of course our inter-relationships, friendships and courtships and family that are a backbone of our means of surviving and thriving.

Humans are highly social beings. We are not born with sufficient instincts to survive quickly on our own without a very high degree of constant and effective assistance in the form of social intervention such as learning, guidance, protection, support and cooperation. Perhaps because of this our ethics tend to be largely rooted in our social milieu, in our inter-relational interactions and the possibilities for and implications of these. Ethical norms guide behaviors and expectations. We feel ethics most as a response to those circumstances and possibilities which most affect other humans - the closer we are to the other human the more affected we tend to be.

Many decry the unfitness allowed for and encouraged due to our collective self-domestication. Yet because this self-domestication is and has become necessary for us we must accept that a degree of unfitness is also necessary. (Forget for the moment that evolutionary fitness tends only to have meaning with respect to certain environmental circumstances and survival requirements, because we may also and indeed here are speaking of another sort of “fitness”, the fitness of self with respect to individual health, self-consistency in body and mind, internal integration of the organism with respect not just to its environs but with respect to itself. The degree to which an organism represents its own self-possibility to a higher degree, what we might call “self-actualizing”, becomes a standard against which the idea of fitness/health may be measured in a way that is not directly conditioned by only a reference to environmental conditions of survival at any given moment.)

So if group ethics aims to tackle the terrain of ethical valuation/s with respect to social/group organization of humans, it must first take into account that a so-called “peak level” of fitness/health, concretely defined or not, cannot be a pinnacle standard. We must accept, from the start, the necessity of abandoning any idea of raising up fitness or healthfulness to “highest possible” levels, when this highest possible reflects an (open or implicit) appeal to comparison to the relative fitness and health levels of animals “in the wild” and living embedded within a direct survival selectivity. We might say that this sort of health/fitness is pertinent only with respect to organism survivability. In this case, adaptions and gains to human survivability made by humans themselves mitigate this type of loss of “otherwise natural” health or fitness. Therefore we can see that the second type of fitness/health, loosely captured under the heading of “self-actualization” becomes most relevant to us humans. We must make a transition from the ideational conceptualizing of health/fitness with respect to so-called “natural” survival selectivity and breeding, and into a conceptualizing of fitness and health in a manner that takes into consideration 1) that a degree of loss of “absolute” or “natural” fitness is a necessary price we pay for our intellect/consciousness, which is to say for our being a social creature, 2) that survivability in the strict naturalistic sense is relative to environs, thus meaning that, for example, the fact that human eyesight is not as good as it used to be is not problematic so long as we continue to have available corrective techniques such as glasses and surgery, and 3) that survivability of the other “self-actualizing” type must be the way in which we conceptualize and evaluate our own survival potential with respect to how much (or how little) our social systems and constructs further human survivability.

1, 2 and 3 above lead to a somewhat startling conclusion, not so much a direct thesis as a subtle shift in paradigm: that it is not inherently problematic that humans might be called relatively unfit animals, and that there is another more useful and valuable way to look at the notions of fitness and survivability when applied to human individuals and species. This new paradigm should be what guides us going forward with seeking to understand and envision the present with respect to its latent possibilities for being better, more improved, more useful, sane, wise, rational. Because present potentiality is mapped upon the terrain of the future, this new paradigm shift (at first perhaps seemingly small, but which leads to growing increasingly powerful and drastic changes in what it implies and necessitates) itself operates based on a perspective situated astride the present and the future, bridging both. This is a sort of “rainbow” or bridge connecting one point to another, along which more practical real-world applications of thought begin to appear and develop.

The application of theory upon reality requires mechanisms of linkage such as these bridges spanning present and future. One such mechanism is the notion of fitness/health, and it has been used in this capacity for a long time. What must now be done is to first reform this mechanism along the lines outlined above, which means adopting a more nuanced, accurate and potent form of the mechanism, and then second to affirm it as it is situated firmly “between” or rather among/within conditions of present actuality and future potentiality (mediated thus in part through present possibility). I.e. first bringing about the sufficient construction of the mechanism, and second bringing it into its contextual embeddedness, actualizing it, applying it.

What emerges from this, when the movement is complete, is a new perspective on ethics, particularly on group ethics. This new perspective tends to largely or completely nullify previous conceptions of group ethical principles and truths, being not only a better and more refined formulation of these but also providing a new platform upon which to (re)evaluate and incorporate the older ethics themselves. The mechanism/s of the past become part of a newer model, building to a thought both higher and wider, growing this ethical thought and possibility taller, more secure, more useful.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A little expansion on the above, “We feel ethics most as a response to those circumstances and possibilities which most affect other humans - the closer we are to the other human the more affected we tend to be”.

This shows how we are “wired” in our valuing capacity, there are certain people we value more than others. All affective states into which we enter with others are a function of this relative status of value, of to what degree the other imposes him or herself upon our own valuing-capacity and -potential.

Part of the utility of attaining a paradigm shift and evolution with regard to our understanding of group ethics is that we free ourselves into a possibility for more direct influence over our own subjective values-judgments and constraints. The fact that we value those other humans more whom we have previous positive experiences with does not escape our attention, and this fact is brought together with the possibilities for re-orienting our valuing capacity with respect to how and why we value as we do based on this new understanding of group ethical principles. The idea of group ethics is so simple and obvious because it, like valuing, is a concept implied in nearly everything we do - implied but not understood, and rarely even seen. What is required to break this hold of ignorance-assumption is to state the obvious, plainly and simply, and let it be in such a way that it does not immediately get re-appropriated back into the status quo of our habitual conceptual formation and maintenance.

So it is imporant we break with the doctrine the of survival of the fittest as a standard to which our group ethical principles and interests must adhere or at least acknowledge - we render this issue of survivability along new lines, as demonstrated in the first post above. This breaks the ideas of survivability and fitness free from undo and harmful constraints and lets then expand and breath in the new fresh air of our human reality. Now survival, fitness, value, group ethics, these all mean something new - they are not entirely changed, but they are given over into a new potentiality and truthfulness. These begin to organize around common themes as they are allowed freedom of movement within the ideational sphere, building momentum, outlining potencies and necessities. We begin finally to see how literally the problems associated with the old ways of thinking plague even the philosophers, even the free thinkers, and how these problems directly prevent humanity from evolving, from transcending its present-day form/s into next-stage rational continuations. The present strives to break free into its future, to conceive itself thus as its own future… yet this valuing-striving is naturally blocked or redirected, limited by, among other things, our own inability to think differently, perceive differently, imagine differently.

The conditions of our survival and evolution are now our own, and as such require of us a great burden and responsibility. Ethics elevated in/to and for the group-as-individual, the individual-as-group and the breaking-down of absolute limitations and categories therein, these new mediated broken-down and intertwined categorizations now conditioned to and by a new subjective potency, as value ontology is beginning to outline.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
When evolution is the aim, suicide is the fate.

“We” do not evolve. “We” get replaced by others who avoided the dangers that we did not handle. They might or might not have been able to handle them any better. They simply didn’t have to at that time for whatever reason. The next generation is seldom the stronger or more intelligent, merely the smaller and more numerous.

We can evolve the homosapian (and are) into something stronger than we are.
Why would any sane sentient life form do that?
How is it a higher priority to ensure that a life form that doesn’t yet exist is stronger than we?
I would think making us as strong as possible would be not only more sane, but also ensures that evolution can actually work. If a life form isn’t trying with all it has to survive, to NOT evolve, evolution doesn’t work at all except to eliminate that type of life form all together. The aim to evolve is a con game that eliminates the mark.

Quote :
We must make a transition from the ideational conceptualizing of health/fitness with respect to so-called “natural” survival selectivity and breeding, and into a conceptualizing of fitness and health in a manner that takes into consideration;

  1. that a degree of loss of “absolute” or “natural” fitness is a necessary price we pay for our intellect/consciousness, which is to say for our being a social creature, [agreed, but deciding how much from whom is a extremely serious issue]

  2. that survivability in the strict naturalistic sense is relative to environs, thus meaning that, for example, the fact that human eyesight is not as good as it used to be is not problematic so long as we continue to have available corrective techniques such as glasses and surgery, and [agreed and stipulated as above]

  3. that survivability of the other “self-actualizing” type must be the way in which we conceptualize and evaluate our own survival potential with respect to how much (or how little) our social systems and constructs further human survivability. [“homosapian survival” isn’t the issue due to the reasoning stated above]

When the survival of the species becomes the priority, the species perishes.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aleatory
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think it’s more of a lobster than that; this matter of ethics is but a tributary of the greater issue composed of proliferating double articulations, involutions and recursions. Because I feel we can only identify or locate the broader issue by marking the point of convergence indicated by the orbital trajectories of its symptomatic issues, we can for convenience’s sake dub this issue the ethical black hole. Where the black hole of physics is supposedly born from a collapsing star, I theorize our ethical black hole is born from (though now only an incipient form) the collapse of the natural order; an attempted hiatus from aeons of evolutionary engineering, a moratorium from the harsher side-effects of natural selection (or more like double interest but no payments for a century). I ask you: Is preserving life inherently good? I’ll neglect the more ambiguous issue of genetic decadence and ask of our burgeoning, soon to be (if not already) turgid, population: what of them? Death, War, Famine and Pestilence: man has systematically domesticated not himself but the four horsemen. This is indeed a black hole that I will need hours to write something I’ll be satisfied with, but let us run through this ethical singularity with a fine-toothed comb and see where we arrive…if you feel so inclined.


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
When evolution is the aim, suicide is the fate.

“We” do not evolve. “We” get replaced by others who avoided the dangers that we did not handle. They might or might not have been able to handle them any better. They simply didn’t have to at that time for whatever reason. The next generation is seldom the stronger or more intelligent, merely the smaller and more numerous.

We can evolve the homosapian (and are) into something stronger than we are.
Why would any sane sentient life form do that?
How is it a higher priority to ensure that a life form that doesn’t yet exist is stronger than we?
I would think making us as strong as possible would be not only more sane, but also ensures that evolution can actually work. If a life form isn’t trying with all it has to survive, to NOT evolve, evolution doesn’t work at all except to eliminate that type of life form all together. The aim to evolve is a con game that eliminates the mark.

Quote :
We must make a transition from the ideational conceptualizing of health/fitness with respect to so-called “natural” survival selectivity and breeding, and into a conceptualizing of fitness and health in a manner that takes into consideration;

  1. that a degree of loss of “absolute” or “natural” fitness is a necessary price we pay for our intellect/consciousness, which is to say for our being a social creature, [agreed, but deciding how much from whom is a extremely serious issue]

  2. that survivability in the strict naturalistic sense is relative to environs, thus meaning that, for example, the fact that human eyesight is not as good as it used to be is not problematic so long as we continue to have available corrective techniques such as glasses and surgery, and [agreed and stipulated as above]

  3. that survivability of the other “self-actualizing” type must be the way in which we conceptualize and evaluate our own survival potential with respect to how much (or how little) our social systems and constructs further human survivability. [“homosapian survival” isn’t the issue due to the reasoning stated above]

When the survival of the species becomes the priority, the species perishes.

In point of fact, “we” as individuals do evolve, but not in the traditional (genetic) sense. In Darwin’s evolution individuals, of any species, do not technically evolve, as this evolution as natural selectivity works across generations. But for humans, we take our own evolution, as individuals, directly into our hands, via self-directed learning, our sufficiency of (our) consciousness of (our) consciousness. This is strictly speaking growth, not evolution, yet because this does involve a degree of adaptive-selection of methods, tools, solutions in the ideational and physical sphere – which is to say because there are generations of/for ideas in the mind, each breeding that which passes after it, each passing through a process of selectivity with respect to the ‘environments’ to which ideation/affection are conditioned within the subject – and because we excercise a (more or less) direct control over this process via our envisioning of it as possibility, before it is actualized, this othewise linear-natural growth-as-learning, what any animal is able to do (apply remembered patterns to present scenarios) attains, in us humans, a rudimentary evolutionary form.

The human of course also evolves as a collective species, like any other life species, but not in entirely the same manner as these others. Humans are no longer very much subject to strict natural genetic selection, since as a consequence of civilizing most humans are survivable (with respect to their possibility for successful reproduction). Therefore the human gene pool is no longer a product of active forces maintaining it toward genetic fitness. Instead, as mentioned above, we evolve in terms of our minds, in the realm of ideas, affect, imagination, reason, perception, and this new mental-affective evolutionary realm has all but replaced traditional genetic evolution (at least in terms of natural selection pressures). Of course this replacement is only partial at best, but grows in influence in tandem with the degree of civilization we humans live in, which is to say to the degree that a group has attained distance from the brutal conditions of otherwise natural survivalism and selective pressure. This as more and more humans live in this state of guaranteed minimal shelter, food and water and medical care, we escape more into a new artificial, non-Darwinian environment of new selective pressures.

Parallel to this is the need for this human animal to take into into its own hands this new evolutionary potential. The old genetic evolution works naturally, emergently, non-teleologically (the ends emerge after-the-fact, secondarily-causally; telos is absent). Human evolution works this way as well, but to a greater degree this is increasingly being supplanted by the possibility for a self-directed (and socially-directed) evolution via potentiality-as-imagining of future conditions, and direct environmental manipulation with the ability to conceptualize how this manipulating affects our own selves at the individual and species levels. This is only the condition of this new evolution, not its mechanism: this condition, the union of imagination and memory in the human being (probably largely facilitated-mediated by language), is only what makes possible the new mechanism, this mechanism being what directly impacts and shapes, leads to human environments which then end up reciprocally conditioning the individual and his or her ultimate survival, and the collective group which emerges from the behaviors of the sum of individuals. Ideas shape the world. The world shapes us. Those human worlds which tend over time to better shape conditions toward survival for the greatest number, in the most successful manner (defined in all sort of ways, of course) tend more to also therefore reproduce their own collective survivability.

We have no choice in this, it is a necessity. Unlike other animals, humans must make survival of the species a priority, because it is us who are directly responsibly for this evolution, us as creators of ideas, and of the created things (tools, machines, languages, etc) which come from ideas. We have taken a direct role in the shaping of our environment, first in a rudimentary form through tools and such, now through highly complex and direct forms of near-total control, through economics, politics, science and technology, and philosophy. Mankind directly engineers his environments, which means he directly engineers the very conditions of his own survivability or unsurvivability. We do this collectively, each individual functioning as a part of these ongoing (and competing!) social-systems. We do not have the luxury of leaving our survivability to the unconscious-automatic realm where it resides for other species, taken care of emergently across many generations through basic natural selection pressures. We will survive or perish, as humans, as we are, based on the degree to which we are able or unable to harness directly evolutionary forces and powers. We must now begin increasingly to conceive of our activities, goals, possibilities, ideals with respect to survivability, not just our own but in general, as a group, as a species, and as a future. We now have (conscious) control over the selective mechanism conditioning our ultimate evolution.

We might say that meme-selection has supplanted gene-selection as a central mechanism for directing human evolution. It is our memes, our ideas and qualities-forms of consciousness/es which directly cause and condition the myriad ways in which we humans impact and manipulate our environment(al possibilities and outcomes), and it is these possibilities and outcomes which we are (as individuals and as an entire species) subsequently conditioned by.

To evolve, other life does not need to value itself in terms of its own survival, it need only naively value, value without respect to its own survivability (as a group) and nature takes care of the rest. For humans this is no longer the case. We must value ourselves consciously, directly, actively and in terms of our own survival as a group because we are now the only evolutionary mechanism that can guarantee our survival. The responsibility is ours, whether we want it or not, whether we are ready for it or not.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:49 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory wrote:
I think it’s more of a lobster than that; this matter of ethics is but a tributary of the greater issue composed of proliferating double articulations, involutions and recursions. Because I feel we can only identify or locate the broader issue by marking the point of convergence indicated by the orbital trajectories of its symptomatic issues, we can for convenience’s sake dub this issue the ethical black hole. Where the black hole of physics is supposedly born from a collapsing star, I theorize our ethical black hole is born from (though now only an incipient form) the collapse of the natural order; an attempted hiatus from aeons of evolutionary engineering, a moratorium from the harsher side-effects of natural selection (or more like double interest but no payments for a century). I ask you: Is preserving life inherently good? I’ll neglect the more ambiguous issue of genetic decadence and ask of our burgeoning, soon to be (if not already) turgid, population: what of them? Death, War, Famine and Pestilence: man has systematically domesticated not himself but the four horsemen. This is indeed a black hole that I will need hours to write something I’ll be satisfied with, but let us run through this ethical singularity with a fine-toothed comb and see where we arrive…if you feel so inclined.

Singularity or not, this ethical black hole, as you call it, is entirely necessary and natural. What is missing in the human equation, now, is higher degrees of conscious control and will toward “ethics”, ethics being (as it is being used here in this response of yours; it is also this, but much more, in my own usage here) a stand-in term designating regulative and prescriptive methods and perspectives, conditioning-delimiting of human affects and ideas and the potentialities therein. Man has come to a ‘point of crisis’ with his “deviation from the natural”, what you mention as evolutionary engineering, the moratorium from side-effects of natural selection. This crisis is a result of the slow emergence of this new human power, the power over evolution, the power to circumvent and over-ride Darwinian selection. It has grown slowly, largely unconsciously in man for thousands of years. Now we reach a crisis point because this power is becoming so great, and so global-totalizing, that it must either be controlled (subjugated to a sane, rational will, guiding principle/s) or turn toward self-destruction and chaos. This sort of chaos has largely been diffused and siphoned in the past through inter-cultural and inter-national warfares, physical and then later in the realms of economics, politics, ideas and achievment. But today, in our global small world, the outlet for such chaotic overflow is increasingly shrinking. The forces are multiplying and becoming magified.

Is preserving life inherently good? Why would it not be? What sort of life, and why? And how? Humanity will either conceive the idea of itself in such a way that it is able to also conceive its own survival-good, in a sane-rational manner, which will involve among other things the adoption of a sort of Group Ethics of which I allude to here, or… humanity will fail in this, and probably either perish or reduce back into a largely Darwinian sort of natural selective evolutionary principle. Or probably most likely, mankind will lose its high level of scientific-technological affluence and power and regress back to a largely pre-industrual state, to begin the process of gradual build-up all over again. This current high level of escape from natural selection which mankind has earned for itself has a terribly high cost and price: the cost is massive intake and organized use of resources, along with the cost of excessive chaotic over-flow and entropy, and the price is even higher: self-responsibility, maturity. Evolution of conscience. It is most with respect to this latter that the ultimate survivability of the human species will be determined. Humanity must answer the question of whether or not its own life is inherently good and worth preserving.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Fri Feb 10, 2012 9:11 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
What is missing in the human equation, now, is higher degrees of conscious control and will toward “ethics”, ethics being (as it is being used here in this response of yours; it is also this, but much more, in my own usage here) a stand-in term designating regulative and prescriptive methods and perspectives, conditioning-delimiting of human affects and ideas and the potentialities therein.

There is a force at the heart of all ethos- at the heart of the “valuing animal,” which is what man is after all, rather than the “rational animal.” … A force which is preventing the “evolution of conscience” which you are pointing toward. Something I wrote:

In nature, the animal man’s instincts were coordinated in such a way that the expression of one instinct was not merely the expression of its own force, but that of the entire organism, that of the consciousness. Consciousness is only this unified force, this reflexivity. To call forth the greatest store of consciousness with the slightest amount of sensory excitation, that was the “goal” of nature. Man’s reason eventually separated the instincts from one another, it introduced discontiguous states of mental affect into a consciousness born out of the need to grasp through continguous impressions relations of temporal and spatial nature. Such discontiguous states of affect we now recognize as “ideas,” words, abstractions. To reason, to arrange aesthetically the same kinds of relationships arranged metonymically by the early consciousness, relationships between events, things, and feelings, that is to say, to arrange them in accordance with these abstractions and the relationships suggested by an appeal to their standard (such as causality) man would have been provided with an advantage over the other beasts, the advantage of anticipation, imagination, and strategy.

His reason, in short, had the psychological consequence of a disruption in the metonymic structure of consciousness so that man began to experience the force of the instincts individually. The sensation of distance and gulf within himself inspired him with the thought of the soul, the thought of a self. The self represents a kind of abeyance of consciousness, the repose of a continuously discharging instinctual organism, a fragmentation of this activity in accordance with which the instincts could be re-coordinated, through “thought.” But this “thinking” could not realize a harmonious order of the instincts like that which nature took thousands of years to produce. The first thoughts to lend their coloring to the humans soul were accordingly very painful, and constituted a kind of negative expression of the organism, the force not of an organization but of a disorganization, from which man still suffers, for this disorganizing power of thought was doubtlessly very seductive, the force it was capable of generating far surpassed that of the organized instincts and the individuated instincts, and was in its power very compelling to early man, offering to him an impetus toward action and life that could not be denied, even if the life and the acts it led him to were dangerous, painful, tragic. It took root in the deepest parts of his consciousness. It is his conscience. The conscience juxtaposes instincts and passions of contrary dispositions, as the sexual drive and the metaphysical need are counter-poised to produce the inspiration of the Christian saint, and grasps this disorganizing power, this inspiration, in an abstraction, in a discontiguous state of consciousness. The disorganizing power of thought is the most seductive and powerful impetus to life that has been produced by nature, and for this reason it persists in man. This is only because thought has still been unable to realize a harmony of the instincts equal in power to that of his original nature.

The conscience, then, is the perishing and diseased nature which still lives within a consciousness attempting to actively realize an organization of its constituent drives, attempting to attain through discontiguous abstractions a new organization of the forces engendered by these drives as well as by the senses which disturb and incite it to life. In short, it is the voice of a disintegrated nature, a compendium of all bestial life, it is the voice of a being trying to become human.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites wrote:

His reason, in short, had the psychological consequence of a disruption in the metonymic structure of consciousness so that man began to experience the force of the instincts individually. The sensation of distance and gulf within himself inspired him with the thought of the soul, the thought of a self.
Very interesting. The notion of the self then as resulting from the absence of the effective, continuous integrity of - well, the self. That make sense. Of course here we get the concept of the “higher self” which is then indeed a good term, as it is something to be attained by conscious and creative effort, not given by animalistic nature.

“The ego” falls in a strange void here – what would it be? The remainder of the integrity of the animal, which can only be a perversion, as, as a passive given, it must be incomplete, un-integer. Mans struggle between ethics and survival/power – between power in the world and a feeling of power over oneself is hereby understood quite well.

What is a healthy ego? Surely the ego of someone who is not blessed with a lot of consciousness. This would explain why it is so attractive for humans to be dominated, to be told what to do – not to think. Why humans are seeking dogma – “God” or “Der Führer” in whichever form, as long as He is not experienced as part of the sel, as long as his rules are simply obeyed as they are conveniently written down or dictated, allows for the instincts to remain more or less animal, for the ego to be a simple expression of instinct.

Quote :
The self represents a kind of abeyance of consciousness, the repose of a continuously discharging instinctual organism, a fragmentation of this activity in accordance with which the instincts could be re-coordinated, through “thought.” But this “thinking” could not realize a harmonious order of the instincts like that which nature took thousands of years to produce.
Naturally it could not as long as thinking represented simply that very aberration of the instincts, their estranging from each other. But thought struggled to become its own antithesis – perhaps this is all thought is! But then, by understanding thought, we have arrived at the end of thought.

Quote :
The first thoughts to lend their coloring to the humans soul were accordingly very painful, and constituted a kind of negative expression of the organism, the force not of an organization but of a disorganization, from which man still suffers, for this disorganizing power of thought was doubtlessly very seductive, the force it was capable of generating far surpassed that of the organized instincts and the individuated instincts, and was in its power very compelling to early man, offering to him an impetus toward action and life that could not be denied, even if the life and the acts it led him to were dangerous, painful, tragic. It took root in the deepest parts of his consciousness. It is his conscience. The conscience juxtaposes instincts and passions of contrary dispositions, as the sexual drive and the metaphysical need are counter-poised to produce the inspiration of the Christian saint, and grasps this disorganizing power, this inspiration, in an abstraction, in a discontiguous state of consciousness.
Right. Christianity then as the honesty of the aberration toward itself as such – how natural then that humanity is here seen as inherently sinful! How well we can now understand the profound inspirations of the “Fall” and the hallucinogenic imagery surrounding it – amazing how human history is coming together now.

Quote :
The disorganizing power of thought is the most seductive and powerful impetus to life that has been produced by nature, and for this reason it persists in man. This is only because thought has still been unable to realize a harmony of the instincts equal in power to that of his original nature.
Until finally, perspectivism arose, and thought overcame its honesty toward itself, that is to say, learned to dismiss itself, broke out of its short-circuiting. With thinkers like Nietzsche, thought shifted its focus from its own nature to the nature of the animal that was still present in its most integrated, immoral and triumphant acts, as well as its least conscious dwellings. And now perspectivism has led to value ontology, which gives us a rational conception of the animal as unity that may be applied to man as it can be to animal. With value ontology, the self-estranging rational process has re-joined the road of unified experience, and enabled at least the conception of the possibility of a new harmony of the instincts, under a ‘command’ that resembles ‘nature’ – nature becomes conscious, consciousness become natural.

Quote :
The conscience, then, is the perishing and diseased nature which still lives within a consciousness attempting to actively realize an organization of its constituent drives, attempting to attain through discontiguous abstractions a new organization of the forces engendered by these drives as well as by the senses which disturb and incite it to life. In short, it is the voice of a disintegrated nature, a compendium of all bestial life, it is the voice of a being trying to become human.
The final battle, the theatre has been erected – yes, a beginning of an understanding of what humanity would mean to itself without the need for this conscience, has been created. But consciousness is still alive and well because it has come to represent the best of our values… That which in the end must be discarded as the hindrance to direct valuing, at this point encompasses our values! The struggle will mean the disentanglement of values from conscience, the disintegrating of values based in notional morality and at the same time the re-integrating of values into a living ethics, a ‘higher self’… not only of the individual, but of the self-image of mankind.

If Man is indeed the “rational animal” and we have arrived at the end of the line of this rationality, then it seems to me that we have in fact arrived at the power to manifest the object of Nietzsches longing - the Übermensch.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    James S Saint
    rational metaphysicist
    rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Group ethics & selective “unfitness” Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:56 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
And now perspectivism has led to value ontology, which gives us a rational conception of the animal as unity that may be applied to man as it can be to animal. With value ontology, the self-estranging rational process has re-joined the road of unified experience, and enabled at least the conception of the possibility of a new harmony of the instincts, under a ‘command’ that resembles ‘nature’ – nature becomes conscious, consciousness become natural.
Due mostly to the inability within me to be certain of what is being meant by much of what is being said in this thread, I can’t agree to much of it. But that one quoted bit is probably the most significant thing revealing the value of “value-ontology”.
(from my perspective Smile )

James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
So you think mutation is the key to evolution. Consider why it is that you have been convinced of that;

American use of DU is “A crime against humanity which may, in the eyes of historians, rank with the worst atrocities of all time.” US Iraq military vets “are on DU death row, waiting to die.”

James Denver wrote:

‘Depleted’ uranium is in many ways a misnomer. For ‘depleted’ sounds weak. The only weak thing about depleted uranium is its price. It is dirt cheap, toxic, waste from nuclear power plants and bomb production. However, uranium is one of earth’s heaviest elements and DU packs a Tyson’s punch, smashing through tanks, buildings and bunkers with equal ease, spontaneously catching fire as it does so, and burning people alive. ‘Crispy critters’ is what US servicemen call those unfortunate enough to be close. And, when John Pilger encountered children killed at a greater distance he wrote: “The children’s skin had folded back, like parchment, revealing veins and burnt flesh that seeped blood, while the eyes, intact, stared straight ahead. I vomited.” (Daily Mirror)

The millions of radioactive uranium oxide particles released when it burns can kill just as surely, but far more terribly. They can even be so tiny they pass through a gas mask, making protection against them impossible. Yet, small is not beautiful. For these invisible killers indiscriminately attack men, women, children and even babies in the womb-and do the gravest harm of all to children and unborn babies.

A Terrible Legacy

Doctors in Iraq have estimated that birth defects have increased by 2-6 times, and 3-12 times as many children have developed cancer and leukaemia since 1991. Moreover, a report published in The Lancet in 1998 said that as many as 500 children a day are dying from these sequels to war and sanctions and that the death rate for Iraqi children under 5 years of age increased from 23 per 1000 in 1989 to 166 per thousand in 1993. Overall, cases of lymphoblastic leukemia more than quadrupled with other cancers also increasing ‘at an alarming rate’. In men, lung, bladder, bronchus, skin, and stomach cancers showed the highest increase. In women, the highest increases were in breast and bladder cancer, and non-Hodgkin lymphoma.1

On hearing that DU had been used in the Gulf in 1991, the UK Atomic Energy Authority sent the Ministry of Defense a special report on the potential damage to health and the environment. It said that it could cause half a million additional cancer deaths in Iraq over 10 years. In that war the authorities only admitted to using 320 tons of DU-although the Dutch charity LAKA estimates the true figure is closer to 800 tons. Many times that may have been spread across Iraq by this year’s war. The devastating damage all this DU will do to the health and fertility of the people of Iraq now, and for generations to come, is beyond imagining.

The radioactivity persists for over 4,500,000,000 years killing millions of every age for centuries to come. This is a crime against humanity which may rank with the worst atrocities of all time.

We must also count the numberless thousands of miscarried babies. Nobody knows how many Iraqis have died in the womb since DU contaminated their world. But it is suggested that troops who were only exposed to DU for the brief period of the war were still excreting uranium in their semen 8 years later and some had 100 times the so-called ‘safe limit’ of uranium in their urine. The lack of government interest in the plight of veterans of the 1991 war is reflected in a lack of academic research on the impact of DU but informal research has found a high incidence of birth defects in their children and that the wives of men who served in Iraq have three times more miscarriages than the wives of servicemen who did not go there.

Since DU darkened the land Iraq has seen birth defects which would break a heart of stone: babies with terribly foreshortened limbs, with their intestines outside their bodies, with huge bulging tumors where their eyes should be, or with a single eye-like Cyclops, or without eyes, or without limbs, and even without heads. Significantly, some of the defects are almost unknown outside textbooks showing the babies born near A-bomb test sites in the Pacific.

Doctors report that many women no longer say ‘Is it a girl or a boy?’ but simply, ‘Is it normal, doctor?’ Moreover this terrible legacy will not end. The genes of their parents may have been damaged for ever, and the damaging DU dust is ever-present…

…Then, when a growing number became seriously ill, and should have been sent to top experts in radiation damage and neurotoxins, many were sent to a psychiatrist…

…Since DU darkened the land Iraq has seen birth defects which would break a heart of stone: babies with terribly foreshortened limbs, with their intestines outside their bodies, with huge bulging tumors where their eyes should be, or with a single eye-like Cyclops, or without eyes, or without limbs, and even without heads. Significantly, some of the defects are almost unknown outside textbooks showing the babies born near A-bomb test sites in the Pacific…

…Yet, far from banning DU, America and Britain stepped up their denials of the harm from this radioactive dust as more and more troops from the first Gulf war and from action and peacekeeping in the Balkans and Afghanistan have become seriously ill. This is no coincidence. In 1997, while citing experiments, by others, in which 84 percent of dogs exposed to inhaled uranium died of cancer of the lungs, Dr. Asaf Durakovic, then Professor of Radiology and Nuclear Medicine at Georgetown University in Washington was quoted as saying, ‘The [US government’s] Veterans Administration asked me to lie about the risks of incorporating depleted uranium in the human body.’ He concluded, ‘uranium does cause cancer, uranium does cause mutation, and uranium does kill. If we continue with the irresponsible contamination of the biosphere, and denial of the fact that human life is endangered by the deadly isotope uranium, then we are doing disservice to ourselves, disservice to the truth, disservice to God and to all generations who follow.’ Not what the authorities wanted to hear and his research was suddenly blocked…
…Entire article Rence.com

Israel’s war with their neighbors via the USA has all but ended homosapian. The same people are also designing the DNA of every source of food, and designing “proper thought and life”, all for the same purpose. You have been consuming it most of your life and it is just beginning to have its irreversible effects.

All is lost by virtue of victory at all cost.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:43 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The subject is terrifying, the inferences made from it horrifying.
Can you combine this with the notion of health and momentum?


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    James S Saint
    rational metaphysicist
    rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
The subject is terrifying, the inferences made from it horrifying.
Can you combine this with the notion of health and momentum?
Every process, especially one of life, has an adversary to that process, an agent of entropy. The victor at every point of contention is determined by Momentum.

That DU problem is perhaps 10-20 percent of the current adversary to the life process of homosapian and cleverly initiated by homosapian. It is a tsunami more vast and momentous than his little mind can comprehend or believe. It is not a matter of something catastrophic that might happen one day. It is already on its way. It is kept under the sea, out of sight where it can build even greater momentum before even the notion to stop it can be inspired. Yet there is no stopping it. The components that comprise the danger cannot be removed, are already dispersed, and already spawning their effect and next unstoppable consequence. Homosapian’s hopes of victory, normality, and control are but fantasies, children playing on the beach, marking territories with lines in the sand, shouting noises into the wind, chanting the sacred tunes of mystical manipulations.

Momentum is an issue of volume of mass and velocity of that mass. The adversary has a mass volume too great to quantify, but its velocity almost too slow to perceive. But every contest is one of strategic momentum, the right forces being applied to exactly the right points until the adversary is no longer a threat.

The only way to survive such an extreme contest of momentum is with an extreme counter measure. No matter how great a momentum, it can never win a contest with the immutable. No matter how quickly that momentum rushes onward, it can never outrun what has already transpired.

The only hope of any life in the current, real, and present danger, is to become the immutable before the contest of momentum and mutation begins. I can spell out the principles of the immutable stone (more than the Ark), but it takes more than one person to manifest it. I am merely one distant voice in the noisy wind at the beach. None survive until two are immutable. Upon three, the contest is won. The noise, the fire, the corruption, the divisiveness, and all that comprise the threat are consumed into the Momentous Harmony/Health of Life victorious, ending the incredibly long struggle against itself.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:14 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I hear you. This is my rationale: The only way to combat the momentum of capital, in whichever direction it is pushed, is to change, re-root, (suppant) the principle of value, on which capital is based.

I am stuck on the specifics of the 1, 2 and 3 in relation to each others.

Perspectivally, 1 is transcendent, self-enclosed, 2 is experiential, polarity, 3 is a continuos relation of potentialities, a manifest power.

Taking this logic further, from 4th power on the unit applies to the real world, the acquisition of this dimension is the crossing of the threshold from the archetypical/geometrical to the formative world of rewarding battle and riskfull identification, where a set of qualities is required to keep the boat afloat on the river of flux with the vortexes of entropy.

Abstractly, I understand these concepts. What I do not have is the variable-language representing 1 in relation to 2 and 3, enabling the permutations required to arrive from the singular at the multifaceted perspective.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    James S Saint
    rational metaphysicist
    rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sounds a little like you are speaking of;

  1. Self
  2. Else
  3. Border between

Self is perceptive influence with a compromised potential interferometer (PI). The PI is constantly undermined so as to disable the natural perceptive responses. Very, very many important things are going on right “under your nose”. As long as you cannot perceive the potential of them, your influence has no self determining decision making capacity.

To re-establish the health and harmony of the perceptive influence (the “Self”) in someone who has been compromised, a type of baptism of the perceptive influence must be undergone (exorcism of the de-mons, the de-unifiers). Doing such a baptism of oneself is a matter of;

  1. TSLs - Temporary Self Locks
  2. PITs - Potential Interferometer Tools

A simple example is the self lock of insistence to sit and meditate on something for no less than 5 minutes. To self-baptize, one must minimize the potential interference (sit in comfortable a quite place, eyes closed). Then maximize the potential influence (focus on the breathing until you sense nothing else and can easily and consciously alter it).

The fundamental process of such an endeavor is universal throughout life and thus to enhance the Self, that process must be instilled through regular practice. The re-cleansing, exorcising of any spurious demons, re-establishing pure harmony within, Self-harmony, must be a regular part of life’s activities. Sleeping is merely a lower level of the same process.

Much greater uses of TSLs and PITs should be gradually introduced so as to enhance the formerly broken/divided life. Eventually there is no more need for any TSL other than the Self’s will and the potential interferometer (PI) is finely tuned. From there, more significant influence tools are developed with the same perception-to-influence thought instilled deep inside. The “Will-to-Power” is established in this manner.

The potential perception interferometer (self-valuing) and potential influence interferometer (together as “Potential Interferometer”) must be strongly enhanced so as to remove insidiously implanted effects such as hypnosis, blame-shifting, obfuscation, false flagging, and so on. Accuracy in perception is paramount (thus the need for the verification step often mentioned).
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Tue Feb 07, 2012 7:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Continuing the Tsunami theme concerning the momentum that is soon to be on your beach and cannot be stopped…

I estimated that the DU contamination problem is merely perhaps 10-20% of that Tsunami building up. If that wasn’t enough to get your attention, perhaps another 25-30% is the following concern:

Biotech or Die via Monsanto:
Quote :
(NaturalNews) The one man who may be responsible for more food related illnesses and deaths than anyone in history, Michael R. Taylor, has just been promoted from US Food Safety Czar to Senior Advisor to the Commissioner of the FDA, a position which would enable the giant biotech company Monsanto to silently and legally feed cancer causing vegetables to every living person who is not 100% strictly organic.

President Obama has appointed the former Monsanto Vice President and lobbyist Michael R. Taylor to the throne. This is the same man who was Food Safety Czar for the FDA when Genetically Modified Organisms were allowed into the US food supply without undergoing a single test to determine their safety or risks. This is like putting a terrorist in charge of the world’s food supply. What will the cancer numbers look like in 2016?

The GMO nightmare all started with the Dan Quayle led FDA/GMO marriage. Under George Bush Senior’s Administration from 1989 to 1993, Dan Quayle single-handedly catapulted GMO’s into existence through FDA’s anti-consumer right-to-know policy, which stated that GMO foods did not have to be labeled or safety tested. Yes, you read that correctly: There is no safety testing required whatsoever to take some Agent Orange pesticide and genetically mutate the seeds of vegetables in a chemical laboratory so that nothing on planet earth will eat the plant that grows from the ground except for all the humans who have no idea what happened.

Michael Taylor is part of a revolving door at the FDA, where Monsanto Execs just come and go as they please. First, Michael R. Taylor was an assistant to the FDA commissioner. Then he left to work for a law firm in the 1980’s to help gain FDA approval of Monsanto’s artificial growth hormone (rGBH), which is directly linked to cancer. Then he became deputy commissioner of the FDA in 1991, and was later re-appointed to the FDA in 2009 by Obama. He is the food villain who tried his best to keep this “malignant milk of the turn of the century” from being labeled.

Michael Taylor is the epitome of everything Monsanto represents. Taylor is like a vehicle for Monsanto’s patenting of seeds and global domination of farming. He implements the government’s “favorable” agricultural biotech policies because it’s much more of a financially sure shot to use RoundUp in food than to farm organically and ethically. If the investments aren’t paying enough at the corporation, Execs just switch over to Federal Regulations and write some new Legislation based on “tainted research”, which allows them to pile more toxins on the American public and bankroll off it when they flip back to the corporate side.
Far more
Comprehensive Report.

A while back, Alex Jones had submitted this short 10min video on YouTube.

And since Micheal Taylor got appointed without public or congressional consultation, more investigation was made in this extensive 2hr documentary on Monsanto. Unfortunately the most interesting portion of that documentary comes at about half way up til the very end.

What is not so blatantly clear is the general method of control of life being discussed. It is obvious that any plant DNA designed to subvert all others is a bit of a problem. But the more serious issue is the very foundational method - “make the chosen immune and then ‘RoundUp’ (kill) all else that cannot be controlled.”

The newly designed DNA is self replicating and cannot be stopped any more than that DU contamination. In Canada, it was decided that if any part of a field became contaminated by the patented GMO seeds, the entire field belonged to Monsanto. In the USA, it works a little differently, but the results are the same. Europe has varying rules. Mexico has even less formal laws concerning it, but again, the results are the same - the unstoppable displacement of all uncontrolled, undesigned life.

What you can’t control, RoundUP and destroy.

From the 2008 motion picture The World According to Monsanto

It has been going on for many years. It is not something that you can rebel against any longer. It is not merely “under your nose”. It is literally in your mouth. You have been eating gold implanted, artificial genome foods which do not treat your body the same as their natural counterparts. It is already in your food, your water, your air. It is already there. Rebelling against it is futile. Like the DU contamination, the damage is already done and growing into a next even more unstoppable generation of attempts to dominate all Life.

Keep in mind, that if you have followed along, you are still seeing less than 50% of the Tsunami already coming your way.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Lust to Dominate, Evolution, and Mutations Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Of course, deeply unwholesome and threatening. But the grand scheme is not quite as bleak as you describe, not all governments are like sheep to the shepherd Monsanto. I just read this:
in.reuters.com/article/2012/02/1 … FQ20120213

But more importantly, Monsanto seeds have always been banned from Austria (as have all genetically engineered products), and, as far as I can find out, since some years from Germany as well. Not all the world is entirely lobby-driven, a notion of health does exist, even in (some) political circles.

I suggest the US based resistance builds from this awareness – of having stronger allies overseas – not from a position of utter abandonment and hopelessness, which is never a good basis for action.

Message
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: The birth of morality and a new unease. Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It seems to me that what has been called morality has thus far existed for the sake of incorporating what seems strange and fantastical, what seems ridiculous and improbable- for example, the freedom of the will or the idea of the self-caused, into an active and participatory consciousness. Thus, the conception of the freedom of the will has been rendered palpable in our feelings of guilt. These ridiculous conceptions, at least for our ancestors, posed a great riddle, for in their lack of knowledge they had no alternative explanation and had to accept them, they had to accept the reality of the gods, of the free will, of the absurd. In order to force themselves to accept such ideas they began to moralize. We now have many contrary explanations and no longer require the acceptance of ridiculous concepts, yet because we have no need to incorporate them into an active and participatory consciousness our truths have no chance of victory in the struggle with those errors which, over the centuries, have been wed with the stuff of life. We require some new order of poets to render us uneasy with regard to these truths, poets who have forgotten man as well as god, poets who are capable of championing under the banner of tragedy that young soul which must wrestle with the question of acceptance with regard to so many unfavorable truths for, insofar as joyousness is always the product of refined, deliberate craft, and the fruit of a peculiar ingenuity, it shall be precisely this neediness, the need for bearing the truth joyously as opposed to the need to accept the absurd for want of more reasonable truths, that will in the long run allow us to finally overcome our errors.

Message

Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Ethos anthropos daimon. Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
"Man must rise to his fate. " -
Ethos anthropos daimon.
Heraclitus.

The beauty and difficulty of the Ancient Greek language is in the fact that rather than strictly delineate concepts, it tends to instead place a limit to what something can be. This limit can be filled in many different ways. It is a way of speaking I exercise in my own writing and aphorisms. There are dozens of translations to the above Heraclitus quote, the one I gave is my own. “The soul is destiny,” “Character is destiny,” “The impulse is fated,” “The deed is fated,” “The deed must observe fate.” Etc.

This Heraclitean aphorism (As I have translated it) is a good example of how the ancient Greek conception of man was rooted in an internal disproportion, a kind of excess rather than lack which had to ascend through earthly material and desire in order to purify itself and realize the ideal, a vision depicted by Plato, and which I call the daemonic. It implies, taken to its highest conception, that the limit, the fatum, of man has not yet been found. Only when the limit is discovered can the horizon of man begin to be filled, and a conception of humanity be arrived at.

Because man has not yet found the idea to provide his limit, his daemonism cannot be resolved, and he must continually alternate through the ascent and descent upon the Platonic scale of being, through the spheres of empirical and transcendental life.

One should recall the words of Aeschylus:

oneirophantoi de penthēmones
pareisi doxai pherou-
sai kharin mataian.
matan gar, eut’ an esthla tis dokōn hora,
parallaxasa dia
kherōn bebaken opsis ou methusteron
pterois opadous’ hupnou keleuthois.’

Why does Aeschylus use the word “keleuthois” to designate the path which the deceptive images of beauty take in leading man to the sleep of empty, hopeless longing? It means not merely path, but twisting path. Both Hesiod and Parmenides used this word when making the point that day and night, sleep and wakefulness, are caught up in eternal alternation, and so pothos or longing, the sleep of love, continually awakens us to eros and the definite object of our longing, and this awakened love must in turn fall back into itself, must sleep.

As yet man lacks a fatum, a limit. He is only ethos daimon, the ascending and descending, wavering spirit, half beast half god.

“Ει ουν φιλοσοφητέον είτε μη φιλοσοφητέον, φιλοσοφητέον, (Man, by nature of his daemonic existence, must philosophize, philosopher or not.) to speak with Athanasius. We cannot, in the manner of one of the old Greeks, name the world a cosmos and beauty until we have named our own soul a cosmos and beauty; to behold and grasp all the world in an idea we must first have come to know ourselves as one particular being and no other and have had everything good and evil rent from the trembling heart and held, not in time, which diffuses our being like colors from a ray of light, but in eternity, which concentrates it. Every man of genius has believed in the eternal, that belief is the very condition of his vitality and flourishing. Perhaps this belief serves as nothing more than an obscuration of the spirit, which man requires if he is to ascend into the highest possible regions of his genius; perhaps he must find all the earth wanting if, like Cassandra of Ilion, he is to utter things not fit for the earth, but it is always the same, and we become like that angel whose wings were set aflame when he reentered this world, if one can entertain the old Gnostic myth. We suffer upon turning back into ourselves, we suffer from the failure to seize upon that inner motion of the heart’s genius, which alone could move us to acknowledge the ideal as fate; the consequence of that strange lust which compels us to embrace obscurity, darkness, and uncertainty, but moreover to prefer this benighted world of the self over that law which strikes against the heart when love, fully matured, overcomes and inspires us to act with proud indifference against the hazards of our mortality. Dei virtutem dei sapientiam, [knowledge, for god, is a virtue] or if one may reverse the old theologian’s paradox: yes, and man’s sin; or, to reinterpret the account of Genesis, what flowered with the greatest sweetness in heaven is reaped with the most bitterness upon the earth.” - Hamartia


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud

Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: A new ethics. Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:55 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
In contrast to the theory of repression and sublimation which Freud elaborated from Nietzsche, I have my own picture.

I have gone on about my theory of consciousness, the reflexive nature of it, and the disintegration of the drives… Instead of the repression of one drive by another drive or drives, you get simply one drive acting separately from the others. Instead of sublimation, you get multiple drives operating in unison. This unison I called active consciousness, because it is involved in the higher ventures, like art, the production of genius, the creation of values. You could picture the consciousness of man as a number of pendulums swinging… In most men the pendulums are separated by a great distance, they swing not together but at different speeds, by different paces, etc. A lot of them do not swing at all, they have run down over time, a particular drive has atrophied, ie. human domestication prevails. But in the man of genius all the pendulums- the drives, instincts, thoughts, and emotions which constitute consciousness… are close to one another. If one pendulum swings, it hits up against the one next to it, and it to the one that follows, and so on, until all the pendulums are operating equally. Genius is measured by how little stimuli is needed to induce the entire consciousness to activity, the greatest geniuses need only a little stimulation to become very, very conscious. The fact that the drives operate as one leads to the strange behavior that allows the association between genius and insanity to be possible. Sexuality, intellect, all the emotions, etc… all operate as one. Of course this is all archetypal, no genius, no man, has every united in his consciousness absolutely all the constituent drives available to human nature. They have achieved greater and lesser degrees of such a union, which always operates against a much stronger, much larger background of the unconscious which, again, is not repressed memories and drives, but those drives, thoughts, etc. which resist integration and still operate as separate forces.


"In nature, the animal man’s instincts were coordinated in such a way that the expression of one instinct was not merely the expression of its own force, but that of the entire organism, that of the consciousness. Consciousness is only this unified force, this reflexivity. To call forth the greatest store of consciousness with the slightest amount of sensory excitation, that was the “goal” of nature. Man’s reason eventually separated the instincts from one another, it introduced discontiguous states of mental affect into a consciousness born out of the need to grasp through continguous impressions relations of temporal and spatial nature. Such discontiguous states of affect we now recognize as “ideas,” words, abstractions. To reason, to arrange aesthetically the same kinds of relationships arranged metonymically by the early consciousness, relationships between events, things, and feelings, that is to say, to arrange them in accordance with these abstractions and the relationships suggested by an appeal to their standard (such as causality) man would have been provided with an advantage over the other beasts, the advantage of anticipation, imagination, and strategy.

His reason, in short, had the psychological consequence of a disruption in the metonymic structure of consciousness so that man began to experience the force of the instincts individually. The sensation of distance and gulf within himself inspired him with the thought of the soul, the thought of a self. The self represents a kind of abeyance of consciousness, the repose of a continuously discharging instinctual organism, a fragmentation of this activity in accordance with which the instincts could be re-coordinated, through “thought.” But this “thinking” could not realize a harmonious order of the instincts like that which nature took thousands of years to produce. The first thoughts to lend their coloring to the humans soul were accordingly very painful, and constituted a kind of negative expression of the organism, the force not of an organization but of a disorganization, from which man still suffers, for this disorganizing power of thought was doubtlessly very seductive, the force it was capable of generating far surpassed that of the organized instincts and the individuated instincts, and was in its power very compelling to early man, offering to him an impetus toward action and life that could not be denied, even if the life and the acts it led him to were dangerous, painful, tragic. It took root in the deepest parts of his consciousness. It is his “conscience.” "

From Hamartia.


One only needs to think of human sacrifice, self-torture, cannibalism, death worship, all common in the earliest human societies. Why is this destructive “disorganizing force” preservative of the human species? It is a greater impetus to life, it is “stronger” than the half-slumbering active consciousness achieved by re-harmonizing the drives through “thinking.” It provides a greater way of cohering a social order. When man made the switch from small hunter-gatherer tribes to larger communities, it found its best soil.

" The conscience juxtaposes instincts and passions of contrary dispositions, as the sexual drive and the metaphysical need are counter-poised to produce the inspiration of the Christian saint, and grasps this disorganizing power, this inspiration, in an abstraction, in a discontiguous state of consciousness. "

It allows contrary mental states/affects to be grasped simultaneously. That is much easier, comparatively, then achieving genuine mental integration.

So we have one group that grasps contrary emotional states in an abstraction, through discontinguous states of consciousness, so that the intellect operates separately from the emotional organism, the egoic consciousness wholly circumscribed by the intellectualiation and narcotisized as it were. Everything is morally good which provides this respite, anything that reawakens emotional and sensual life (which must be highly painful, granted the contrary passions) is bad, like sexual desire, etc. Another group, who achieve mental integration, are not hurt by the same things that awaken for the former the drives, because their drives do not exist in such destructive configurations. But these two classes of people do not war, they integrate, socially, over time. Those who are not harmed by the drives, as the drive for sex, become early priests, the administrators of the Gods, and teach others how to tolerate these drives through things like sex rituals, as was practiced at the temples of Athena. The grasping through abstraction of contrary drives and the active integration of compatible drives, as two tendencies or psychological strategies, operate together, producing the model of the modern human being, a highly compartmentalized, coping-efficient, somewhat “less insane” psychology.

But the truth is often spurred along under the wing of madness.

But for us philosophers of the future, what do we need to do to intentionally produce what all genius has heretofore only for-shadowed? A truly active consciousness? It involves a new way of valuing, of creating morality.

“… doubt and suffering can only serve as the presentiment of a replete and living self, of some vital power within us that longs to be exhausted, and certainly can never extinguish such a vitality; for who and what a person is depends in the final case, not on the truth he has acquired or the morality for which he lives, but rather on the number of passions, joys, sufferings, and thoughts that he can unite within the circle of his comprehension, it depends upon the breadth of that image, of that idea, which he is capable of drawing from out of their opposition and turmoil, for anything not held within the confines of this image will certainly be lost amidst the passage of years, and everything not informed by its singularity destroyed. It is what Shelley called the hope which has created from its own wreck the thing it contemplates; it is Eros, that love which ennobles philosophy, which searches into the depths of mortal passion, which chastens the springs of joy and suffering, which raises our passions and experiences into the higher language of ideas; it is love, which engenders within that suffering which is the bitter fruit of all practical morality the seed of heroicism, that unites the disparate elements through which our individuality comes into being. When the sky darkens and the storm sets in, the bird does not cease flying because it is afraid, but because it can no longer see the horizon in its infinite distance, and it longs to brave immensity and impossibility, and cannot live under anything but that boundless horizon; so too does a man live and take shape only in the horizon of his love, his hope, and his ideas.” – Hamartia

The logic of the daemonic and the idea of reflexive consciousness I developed before I ever caught word of what you were doing here. Once I familiarized myself with value ontology I realized my concepts of the daemonic and my theory of consciousness could be used as the psychological basis of it, of value ontology. The psychology of the daemonic also articulates a new conception of morality, the idea of transcendental goods. Value ontology, when it has been fully formed, might be understood as the science of articulating and creating such transcendental goods, transcendental values, values which intentionally provoke the daemonic side of man. All of these separate ventures are different components of a new philosophical movement I don’t have a name for.

“All youths are prophets. Is not all of our wisdom only a long interpretation of the poem and dream of youth?”

  • Hamartia

A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: A new ethics. Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:01 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This was supposed to be a reply to a PM by Capable, and I accidentally posted it in ethics. I suppose I might as well leave it here.


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: A new ethics. Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:49 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
It is good that you did post this here. This is quite substantial. I would first like to focus on one small part here (essentially I feel like I understand most of what you write here - although it has taken me a while to habituate to your language and terms - so I want to focus more on where I so far have less grasp on your meaning),

Quote :
The first thoughts to lend their coloring to the humans soul were accordingly very painful, and constituted a kind of negative expression of the organism, the force not of an organization but of a disorganization, from which man still suffers, for this disorganizing power of thought was doubtlessly very seductive, the force it was capable of generating far surpassed that of the organized instincts and the individuated instincts, and was in its power very compelling to early man, offering to him an impetus toward action and life that could not be denied, even if the life and the acts it led him to were dangerous, painful, tragic. It took root in the deepest parts of his consciousness. It is his “conscience.” "

Why/how was this first experienced as a suffering, as a negative expression? Delimitation of what I will call the human-subjective drives from a functional unity-whole into discrete units (“thoughts” or ideas/conceptual-perceptive imaginings, and distinct “feelings”) would seemingly have schizophrenized the human mind, introducing total confusion and chaos into the human. Suddenly man is experiencing powerful “thoughts”, internal images that are not memories but vivid imaginings of presently unreal conditions that yet seem entirely real, and intense passional-emotional states that linger and seem to arise “out of nowhere” rather than as a result of immediate environmental stimulus. It seems like “chaotic” and confusing would be a good way to describe all this. What I want to get at is more exactly what you mean by, “very painful, and constituted a kind of negative expression of the organism”. This negative expression resulting from how a single moment of consciousness is now being defined-constituted by a more limited-narrow experiential stimulus rather than the result of a unified functional whole of all relevant internal states, drives and affects (“instincts”) given the stipulations of the environment of the immediate moment? That each moment of such a now highly compartmentalized consciousness is an expression of more “lack” of “what is not there, what is not saliently functional” than what is?

I am also curious in what manners this would have been so seductive and socially useful to man. Probably the emergence of shaman and language (or further development of language) was spurred by the necessity of coping with this now-schizophrenized consciousness, which had previously known only “animal unity” of a more or less functional whole “image” of consciousness where no single drive or impulse would have unduly impeeded upon the rest (out of sync with environmental necessity, of course). Now picture this new man, this ape, standing around experiencing these inner turmoils that have no immediate environmental stimulus. Certainly language and social force, in other words the imposition of powerful regulatings and limiting mechanisms that would have been recognized by this ape (e.g. elements of the social sphere, power hierarchies, words/sounds designating known threats or desired objects, etc.), would have been needed. Those early societies which survived were the ones that developed more useful mechanisms of limitation and constraint with respect to this newly compartmentalized-freed system of drives and affects? In otherwords, without an “animal” functional unity the consciousness needed to supplement itself in part with a new sort of compensational unity, one borrowed from the social sphere.

Assuming this is hitting on where you are going with this, I would like to further explore how this situation led to the emergence of conscience, specifically what this conscience was, consisted of, at first, and how our modern experiences with it can be seen as derivative of these earlier states. I suppose I have a preconceived connotation of what “conscience” means and is, and there is some lack of overlap here with regard to how this may be seen to have derived from the early condition of man just having developed rudimentary self-consciousness and “reason”, and a basic symbolic-representational language in such a way so as to experience the delimitation and compartmentalization of the various inner sensations from each other, and what this situation would have been like and what it would have necessitated on a social-collective scale.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: A new ethics. Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:19 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To answer Capable’s questions… Nietzsche often makes the point that we cannot understand the origin of a thing based on what it does or what it is used for now. In the present time we understand the conscience to be the internal voice of a moral system. It has, or produces, this inner sense of right and wrong because the moral system has been so thoroughly ingrained in a person that he no longer has to think about it, it is intuited.

When man first learned to look beyond the veil of time, when he began to think… He very quickly learned how to differentiate internal states of emotion and drive in accordance to the now easily divisible world outside of him. Man could now only act in accord with a particular emotional state that was paired with a change he wanted to see in the world outside of him. He could no longer behave as animals do, he had to think, he now possessed a will. The problem is that individual drives do not possess enough power to compel man to act, save for those drives directly involved in his survival, and that is only because they overcome his reason. Starvation would compel him to eat. But there was no way to evolve social bonds, a culture, anything beyond hunter-gather societies. There was no way to value. The fact that the individual drives were not powerful enough to seduce man to action is exampled by the fact that they do not grant him the capacity to value, and it is only value that will satisfy that hunger which no other animal possesses, the hunger of his newly developed intellect.

He could only pair one drive with an intended result, he could not appraise many results and value them against each other. He was just a clever animal at that point. He needed a lot of stimuli and got only a little consciousness out of it… He needed a way to weigh many different decisions and drives against each other, but for that he needed a developed sense of self-hood.

So now a “self” had to be developed, the thing that values… Something that can apprehend the variances in drive and emotion, between internal states, that can comprehend them and itself as something enduring throughout them. The disorganization of his integrated sensuality, the separation of his animal nature into constituent drives through his reason, took on a life of its own. Two inner states were reified in an abstraction in which their discontiguity, their variance, their difference, could be comprehended. This is the beginning of the spiritualization of man and world, and the development of the “self,” of the psychological sense of selfhood, in such abstractions. Those abstractions in which man grasped the changes, the transformations and difference between his emotional states, granted him more and more consciousness of his selfhood. So the first stage of the development of the conscience, the capacity to value, was the intuited sense of self-permanence, self-hood.

Contrast is then the basis of our consciousness. There is no consciousness without the separation of inner and outer phenomenon into opposition, oppositions which must be reified in some abstraction that makes us conscious of the variance between two things or inner states. It would have been psychologically painful at first because all the drives responsible for the survival of man had to be placed in opposition to one another. Death rituals that celebrated life, things of this sort, took place. Mass suicides, cannibalism, death orgies, pain festivals. All of this was necessary. It formed the first social connections beyond hunter-gather, ie. religious connections, as well as helped develop self-consciousness. The failed abstractions, the values that proved suicidal or ended up leading toward death, obviously we don’t know of. The failed cultures to which they belonged never lived long enough to write their own history books. But there is an extensive history which we have no knowledge of which details such failed cultures, the forgotten madness of our species, and much self-imposed torture. Only the “sanest” values and value-creators survived, all the history and culture we know is of them. The values and moral philosophies of this survivor culture are no more credible though, they just didn’t end up killing us. Well, they didn’t end up killing all of us.

In our time, in recent history… this process of reifying the variance of the inner life, of extending the sphere of consciousness over the collapsed foundation of animal instincts, is only carried out by “geniuses,” through moral philosophy, art, etc. But in our early history all men were doing this, in order to deal with their destroyed psyches and broken drives. Values are created only in response to the fact that there is no impetus to live. All men once needed that impetus, few men do now.


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: A new ethics. Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
However that impetus to life has dimmed and is dying, Nietzsche called it nihilism. The brutal process I just described and all the madness that comes with it- much greater madness now though, since so many centuries of philosophers and knowledge-workers have differentiated the drives, the animal pathos… All of that must be done again and endured again. You see, we have already seen a few failed cultures and noted their dying rituals. The madness of the Nazis, for example. More of that will come. Nietzsche himself is an example of a failed culture, perhaps. Maybe we all are too. Hard to say.


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: A new ethics. Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I just made a connection between something I wrote in the topic ‘What is religion?’ and your new theory of ethics.

I wrote,

But whereas actual children grow whether they want to or not, are forced to grow and overcome themselves again and again even if they do not wish to, the adult “child” of the religious type has no such organic-physiological necessity. Man can remain child-like throughout his entire life, child-like when it comes to the character and quality of his consciousness. This lack of an impelling necessity for growth to continue outside of actual child-hood might be one of the severest problems we face as a species.

And your ethics now stands as a solution for this lack: what man lacks, presently, is a psychological necessity which would impel him to continue “growing up” once he has abandoned childhood and become an “adult”. But this necessity would need to be of a psychological, conceptual, ideational form, and would need to draw heavily from affectation as well. Religion merely appropriates this lack, utilizing it rather than filling it in or answering it. What your new ethics here speaks of is a totally new way to fill in this lack, to give man a powerful and vital psychological necessity that would impel him toward higher degrees of self-actualizational development, growth. It is easy for us to see how religious methodology does not produce psychological necessity but rather represses this possibility, disguises and degenerates the feeling/sense of this otherwise lacking need. Philosophy can create some necessity here, but it is haphazard, insufficient, not yet fully formed. I think you have gathered these fragments and fused them together into a new ethical order and potentiality, one which now would generate in man a significant psychological necessity were it to take hold in him.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy

Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: “There can be no recompense…” Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
There can be no recompense for that mighty liberty which, bounded only by birth and death, is called Life. Not with pain, love, malice, or joy can it be rewarded, for these belong unto it, but only by the man himself. Earth claims earth, life has no end other than itself, and the heavens regard only their own: this law is what the Greeks named fate which, in great opposition to our conception of it, offers itself as a limit to man, world, and god, rather than an indifferent litany of their impending tragedies, failures, and victories. This truth cannot be realized in the visions of the saint and does not lie within the grasp of contemplation, but must be resolved in the movements of life- ethos anthropos daimon. Like all real truths, destiny confers to us no maxim of conduct, but rather that light in which the image of human life, once diffused and disunited in time, is concentrated and beheld sub species aeternitas, which is to say in its unity. All great symbols, as all great ideas which stand as representative of some portion of human existence, suggest one another in their finite number as naturally as the musical notes induce their own infinite combination and recombination in the soul of the artist, and because life offers up to us essentially the same incorruptible, indivisible experience the genius of their unity is realized only to the extent that one has indwelled in life. The beauty of a supreme work of art or philosophy is a refrain of the indivisible sum of experience that is called human life which, however much of a variation upon the eternal theme it may offer, is nonetheless equivalent to it, and recognizes its birth and death, its fate, in it. The world is a poem for the poet, a cross for the saint, a sphinx for the philosopher. There is a universal justice, but it is that which we render upon ourselves in following upon the course of thought like a dying star in slow extinction before the pale bound of the firmament. In this slow death do we finally recover something of life; that sweet dialogue which is attended to in secret between ourselves and our own soul, to speak with Plato, which is incapable of communicating itself to all but the most superficial periphery of our existence in words and deeds and is resolved silently in the drama of the ideal. The suffering of Empedoclean man, of the longing for personal immortality, and the suffering of Faustian man, that all-embracing hunger which clamors in its own pain but to taste existence, are reconciled in the heroic annihilation of being in becoming; the forgery of human happiness, the idol of virtue, all the mortal and immortal powers of the earth and heavens strike us as a remarkable fatuity when beheld against this secret and this silence, against that unfathomed peace to use the expression of Leopardi, the unknowable basis of that dialogue which is after all only the rarest species of the knowable, be it called sin by the saint, desire by the Buddhist, or death, for it must lead us into heaven, nirvana, and life, for it must lead us to that point where the transient play of appearances ceases to offer up to us vacant forms and we, at last peering into the remote fulcrum of our life for we are at last peering into the remote fulcrum of our own self, declare with Tasso, ich weib es, sie sind eqig, denn sie sind. [Only what truly is endures.] Our character is but the extremity of the ideal; our personality, only the degree of some predominant conception raised to the highest power. Every mind has its own nycht or hemera in that general nychthemeron of the soul; every personality, as the high point and the moment of greatest vitality of some conception, as necessarily only a moment of tension in the idea, can find a repulsive note and answering strain in the progress of the intellect and thereby awaken to that desire to reconcile knowledge and being, to the daemonic, and to recognize what is called fate. Philosophy is nothing less than the aspiration to complete humanity.

– Hamartia, Essays Toward A Speculative Ethic, Afterword.


A sik þau trûðu

James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:32 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Is value-ontology to be associated with;
A) all people should seek to assess value as defined by their own Self/Existence/Soul,
B) some people should submit themselves to the value defined by society or evolution (inherently the Nobility - Socialism),
C) all people should cognitively define their value-system for themselves to be applied as they wish?

Once that decision is made, Value-ontology can have a basis for deducing ethical standards and morality and thus gain social significance. Until then, from my perspective, it will remain merely more noise.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
From my understanding, what we call value-ontology here is a reversal of the classical philosophical paradigm. Philosophy has first studied the nature of being, ontology, then built a morality on top of that. What we think is that ontology, that being, can only be discovered after valuations have been made, after a value system has been established. The primary ontological factor then, for a morality of this kind, must be that entity which empowers and makes the valuation possible in the first place: the valuing and creating self. The study of ontology then becomes the study of what is theoretically possible, conceivable, for the valuing subject in terms of experience, it becomes the attempt Adorno pointed towards in this quote, “Perspectives must be produced which set the world beside itself, alienated from itself, revealing its cracks and fissures, as needy and distorted as it will one day lay there in the messianic light.”

Morality (value) as primary, ontology as secondary, that is the basic premise. Following it through would eradicate the distinction between essence and appearance, noumenon and phenomenon, that Nietzsche often criticized and which had stifled philosophy by the 19th century.

This value before ontology notion I would sum up with this quote by Athanasius: Ει ουν φιλοσοφητέον είτε μη φιλοσοφητέον, φιλοσοφητέον. [Man, by virtue of his daemonic nature, must be a philosopher, rather he wants to or not, rather he philosophizes or not.]

The corruption of philosophy, morality’s loss of its primary quality, goes as far back as Plato.

Traditional ethical philosophy and morality have phrased the Good in a language quite distinct from the language that traditional philosophy uses to phrase the True. The true has always been purely representative. The truth, in the old Platonic sense, as the Ideas, are not positive specifications of knowledge. They are conditions of possibility of knowledge. Like the law of identity, a thing is what it is and no other thing. That is not itself a positive piece of knowledge, but is rather a representative kind of knowledge: it merely represents the transcendental object by which the empirical consciousness holds itself in existence and sustains the process of thought. I want to begin a new ethical philosophy that treats the Good in just this way, as purely representative, as a condition of possibility for the empirical, lived, finite, meaning-seeking consciousness. Our morals do not accomplish such a representative act, they do not represent to us a transcendental object. Our moral and ethical philosophies have tried to be merely positive designations of knowledge. Do this or do not do this. This is a virtue, that is a vice, etc. This owes itself to the primal error by Plato, who spoke of the good in a different language than he used to speak of the true. The true was spoken of as a representative idea, whereas the good was discovered within Eros’ loving gaze, was born of this gaze, and because it was related only to Eros, only to the lover and not the beloved object itself, not the transcendental order to which truth belonged, which truth represented, this “good” served for Eros as a merely positive objectification of knowledge rather than as a representative of the transcendental. The foremost goal of a new ethical philosophy must be to re-imagine “ethical ideas,” that is, purely representative goods. In the way in which the idea sustains the process of thought and holds the empirical consciousness in existence, “ethical ideas” must sustain a process that I call the “erotic-daemonic,” and that new ethical philosophy which engenders them must hold the transcendental objects and those truths which represent these objects in existence, must hold the “ontological” philosophy in existence, by continually recovering those conditions of limitation within the empirical consciousness from which such truths were born.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:07 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Sooo…
Was that A, B, or C ?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A) all people should seek to assess value as defined by their own Self/Existence/Soul,
B) some people should submit themselves to the value defined by society or evolution (inherently the Nobility - Socialism),
C) all people should cognitively define their value-system for themselves to be applied as they wish?

The questions you posed are irrelevant. All people already do seek to assess value as defined by their own self. It’s a psychological fact and reality, not a point of debate. That’s why Christians cherry pick what they like out of the bible and ignore the rest. Some people submit to the value defined by the society they live in because they’re weak and they like order, they like to be ordered and to take orders. Here they are still valuing on the basis of their own self and what they are. And I am pretty sure the only way to define a value system is “cognitively” and the only way to apply it is “as we wish.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:10 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
So “Value-Ontology” represents (C).
Is that the consensus?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:39 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan … if_srs.jpg

images.cheezburger.com/completes … 77e794.jpg

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:00 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
So value-ontology means, “life and reality are whatever you want them to be” -the motto of the anarchist and solipsist.
“Truth (ontology) based on want (value)”?
Hmm… a bit disappointing.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:30 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
First of all, that has nothing to do with anything I said, second of all, want is not value, third of all, see above.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:16 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites has answered the question of a value-ontological morality as far as it can be answered directly, which means that he already took the step from “pure” value-ontology to describe the sort of ethics that derives from it. But such ethics have nothing to do with the type of commandments you (James) seek. The simplest answer to your question is: An ontology does not describe what should be, but what is. Value ontology does not prescribe anything to man that man does not already prescribe to himself. It is at first a means to un-prescribe impossible, nonsensical and useless prescriptions, and therefore enables/opens up, rather than that it imposes on man any limitations or laws.

The only commandments/prohibitions that can be seen as following from value ontology directly are those that can be imposed on external rule, government. The individual can not be effectively commanded except by manipulating the commanding that he himself is. He can not be directly, unconditionally commanded except by threatening him with suffering and death, and this does not produce any allegiance, reliability. He is best commanded by manipulating his perception of his own commanding nature (manipulating his self-perception), so as for it to suit the type of commands one wants to give him. One can only precisely and enduringly command an individual by making him think that he is being commanded in name of himself – in terms of his self-valuing. In this light I can address the three options.

“A) all people should seek to assess value as defined by their own Self/Existence/Soul,”
People, and al beings, inevitably do this, whether anyone says they should or not. Value ontology explains this inevitability. If tere is any “should” here it id that we should give up the effort of trying the change this tendency, and aim for a flexible society with no direct commands, except for a few “thou shalt nots” (kill, etc) and a few provisions from which one can only benefit (roads, clean water, etc).

“B) some people should submit themselves to the value defined by society or evolution (inherently the Nobility - Socialism),”
Society represents the social terms in which a human can see his own self-valuing reflected. An individual simply can only submit himself to a rule/law that something in his being agrees with. If there is nothing to agree with, he will rebel or allow himself to be imprisoned / killed.

There are weaker and stronger self-valuings (beings), just as there are more and less stable elements. The weaker a self-valuing is, the more it will tolerate of society and the less it needs of society to conform to him. A being of maximum strength/stability is able to exist either alone or commanding whatever is around him. Society may try to regulate self-valuings interactions with each other so that a strong beings tyrannnical influence (what Nietzsche calls “bestowing virtue”) is only exerted on those who benefit from this rule/standard-giving.

A society based on value ontology can have no central value-prescribing command, it can only limit what strong entities do to weaker entities who do not voluntarily submit, as well as provide for goods/values that are of general benefit. It would follow that ideally, government is sustained not by taxes but by voluntary contributions.

“C) all people should cognitively define their value-system for themselves to be applied as they wish?”
In as far as an individual has the need or desire as well as the capacity to cognitively define at all, they might benefit from defining their value system so. But since a value system is already implicit in anyones being, it works whether it is cognitively defined or not. What should be cognitively defined is a philosophically sound model for the interactions/exchange of values. The absence of this is the only real problem of our current world. This is the void from which all modern evils (such as the ones you are predicting will bring the end of the homo sapines) are spawned.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Parodites
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:33 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross has pointed out what I did, my rationalist meta-physician friend. Your questions are irrelevant. The point of debate is how values are actually created and defined, how they should be defined and created. Value ontology is a method for creating values, as opposed to the other methods that exist.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:59 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The errors of ontology have been manifested in morality, because man’s existence as an ontological subject has taken primacy over his existence as an ethicizing subject. For example, free will is a major basis for modern morality, when it is in fact nothing more than an error of ontological philosophy. Inverting ontological and moral philosophy would eventually help us realize a philosophically accurate and rich concept of experience, something that eluded Kant and for which he has been criticized, as I said:

The primary ontological factor then, for a morality of this kind, must be that entity which empowers and makes the valuation possible in the first place: the valuing and creating self. The study of ontology then becomes the study of what is theoretically possible, conceivable, for the valuing subject in terms of experience…

Value ontology would be a method for refining a self-consistent, internal vision of life which, objectively specified, would provide such a “philosophical concept of experience.” The philosophy that emerges out of it would deal, even in the extremity of its ontology, with things rooted in perception and experience, (and therefor the truth) since everything must first pass through the refining, self-consistent, internal conception of the world and the self, established through a cultivated valuation(s).

A quote by Nietzsche seems fitting:

This ridiculous overestimation and misunderstanding of consciousness has the very useful consequence that it prevents an all too fast development of consciousness. Believing that they possess consciousness, men have not exerted themselves very much to acquire it; and things haven’t changed much in this respect. To this day the task of incorporating knowledge and making it instinctive is only beginning to dawn on the human eye and is not yet clearly discernible; it is a task that is seen only by those who have comprehended that so far we have incorporated only our errors and that all our consciousness relates to errors.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist

Posts : 244
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:02 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
One must always point the way to others in accord with where they stand.
…assuming that one isn’t interested in merely talking to himself.

Assuming that none of the options in the OP were applicable, an appropriate response would have been something like;
“None of the above, but instead,
D) Value-ontology should be associated with…”
rather than the somewhat egotistical and nonsensical response, “your [OP thread topic] questions are irrelevant”

I seriously have no need for a lecture from any of you about how reality or a mind functions nor the errors of society’s mental acrobatics. You expose how you think with every statement you make, for example your blindness to the connection between “want” and “value”.

Parodites wrote:
Fixed Cross has pointed out what I did, my rationalist meta-physician friend. Your questions are irrelevant. The point of debate is how values are actually created and defined, how they should be defined and created. Value ontology is a method for creating values, as opposed to the other methods that exist.
In that very short quote (compared to all you have written), you point out the exact reasoning for the question (the ONLY question that is relevant in THIS thread). You state that value-ontology is a method concerning how ethics “should be defined”. That is exactly what the “irrelevant” OP question is about. It is not about how everyone throughout history has been inferior and all of the foolish errors those pathetic people in the past have made. If you want to lecture about that, at least provide an example of such an obvious error, but on a different thread.

As implied in the OP, until you can get your mind out of the dark cloud that you seem to have labeled, “value-ontology” and relate it to something other people can see clearly (as well as clarify it better to yourselves), you will not be able to sensibly define any morality or ethics and the entire notion will remain in the eyes of society as “some Nietzschean nonsense that a few guys were babbling about”.

And btw, a physicist is not a physician.

Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I didn’t notice your sub-name was “rational metaphysicist.” I always glanced at it and read it simply as “rational metaphysics,” because my brain tends to just ignore things that either don’t exist or don’t make any sense, like “metaphysicist.”
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:31 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Look, fuckhead, I told you what value ontology was to my mind, others have no doubt done the same before. The only dark cloud I have my head in is my reason for still talking to you. Don’t tell me about being egotistical, either. I don’t much enjoy talking to other human beings in the first place, I’d prefer to just bury my head in a bottle of pills and listen to music all day, and I consequently don’t have any qualms about speaking to those human beings that fail to amuse me, provoke me, or give me something to think about in any way I see fit. I said your OP questions were irrelevant because they’re irrelevant. I defined very specifically what I see value ontology as. I’m not going to reduce either it or myself to fit into the cloistered sentence-long verbal turd of one of your stupid fucking questions. Anything else?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:36 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
“All people should cognitively define their value-system for themselves to be applied as they wish?”

No, man. They should define it lymphatically, or testicularly, or with their pituary gland. What other way is there to define it besides cognitively?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:59 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
By the way, looking through all of your posts, I am convinced you are either suffering from some form of dementia, or you are out of your mind.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:22 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
If the intention behind the OP is to acquire a morality in the form of a “thou shalt” (to humans) then value ontology should be ignored. It should indeed be considered irrelevant to the traditional moralist (the “thou-shalt”-sayer), as it reveals the cognitive void underneath such moralities.

Untranslated, the OPs points are very far away from having to do anything with value ontology. However, efforts have been made to relate value ontology to the intention suspected behind the OP. It seemed that the intention was to find out what type of morality can be won from value ontology. These efforts have apparently been wasted on you, yet you confirm the suspected intention by quoting “method concerning how ethics “should be defined”” as what the OP is about. Why then have you ignored answers you have received, and say that you have gotten no answers?

The only reason I can think of is that the answers you have received are not simple enough for you. If this is the case I have to disappoint you – indeed, there is no simple, swift and conclusive way from value ontology to a formulation of a morality. We’ve just begun the work, and since it is philosophical work, which means that it runs deep and moves slowly, we will not be finishing it anytime soon. Panicky calls about the end of mankind are not going to speed up the process.

The only effort you could make that would speed up this particular process is trying harder to understand what value ontology is, and trying harder to understand the replies you get and the posts you respond to. If the OPs point was simply to discredit value ontology as “vague” or “a dark cloud” to provoke the authors to change it, then it is fortunate that it has been misunderstood and caused some useful replies.

"As implied in the OP, until you can get your mind out of the dark cloud that you seem to have labeled, “value-ontology”
It is convenient to know how you really stand toward this thinking.

“and relate it to something other people can see clearly”
It has proven perfectly understandable to a good number of people already, all of them (how coincidental!) of highly refined intelligence. It has met some resistance from people who want to use it in a way for qwhich it is not designed (you) and those who feel threatened by it (certain Nietzscheans)

" (as well as clarify it better to yourselves),"
Presumption. That you fail to see clearly it does not mean that this unclarity exists outside of you.

“you will not be able to sensibly define any morality or ethics and the entire notion will remain in the eyes of society as “some Nietzschean nonsense that a few guys were babbling about”.”
Ignoring for a moment that we are sensibly defining already, such a prospect is delightful compared to the prospect of scrambling to mutilate the thought to fit the urge to be subjected to “thou shalt” like commandments.

It may take one year, ten years, or a thousand years for this thought to take hold on a large scale. It may never take hold. In any case it will not be compromised by its creators to suit fearful urges or anti-philosophical demands.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Parodites
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:47 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Let him hodgepodge some more random math and science concepts together and call it a ToE.

Why are you even on this site Saint? You have more posts than any member of this forum and you aren’t even interested in value ontology, you’re here to rant about how you discovered a Theory of Everything.

I am going to offer the absolute briefest explanation of value ontology which I can:

Value ontology is a way of philosophizing that grants ontological primacy to the human agent (the valuing subject, named many things by many people- for Nietzsche, will, for Heidegger, Dasein, for me, the daemonic, for Kierkegaard simply the self or that which despairs) rather than ousia or being. It gets beyond, in this way, the distinction between truth and appearance and deals with questions of being in a language derived from a philosophically accurate and rich concept of experience rather than an abstract, Aristotelian table of categories, something which Kantian philosophy has always lacked.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:45 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Parodites wrote:

Value ontology is a way of philosophizing that grants ontological primacy to the human agent (the valuing subject, named many things by many people- for Nietzsche, will, for Heidegger, Dasein, for me, the daemonic, for Kierkegaard simply the self or that which despairs) rather than ousia or being. It gets beyond, in this way, the distinction between truth and appearance and deals with questions of being in a language derived from a philosophically accurate and rich concept of experience rather than an abstract, Aristotelian table of categories, something which Kantian philosophy has always lacked.

As an absolute briefest explanation, I’d say that’s not bad.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Does the Value-Ontologist Agree to… Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
James S Saint wrote:
As implied in the OP, until you can get your mind out of the dark cloud that you seem to have labeled, “value-ontology” and relate it to something other people can see clearly (as well as clarify it better to yourselves), you will not be able to sensibly define any morality or ethics and the entire notion will remain in the eyes of society as “some Nietzschean nonsense that a few guys were babbling about”.

This sums well the core of your critique here: value ontology cannot produce anything which can be related/relevant to “other people”, it is a unclear “cloud” with insufficient (or at least insufficiently demonstrated) substance.

Unfortunately, I guess for you, as you may have noticed here much is being written and worked on with respect to this, the supposed unclarity of the thought, as well as its supposed irrelevancy to the world at large. Thinking back to when this site was created, about 3-4 months ago, what we call “value ontology” (remember this is just a label, the content is always much more than a label can capture, and the collection of this content/s under a single name is more of a regrettable necessity than anything else, at least for me) was something barely in its infancy compared to what it has become now. Which is not to say that it is presently “very much”, with respect to what it could be, must become, will become. It is a work-in-progress, and as Fixed Cross noted, such works as these philosophical projects take much time and the progress tends to be slow. The thought has become much clearer, more defined and delineated. At times this takes a form of declaration and explication, at other times a more negative form of “what it is not”. Both are acceptable, of course. Also important is to note that defining a thing is never as clear-cut as “this is that”, “x=y”, that sort of thinking finds a home in mathematics, perhaps in some sciences, but has little home in philosophy. To believe that a thought, any object of thought or philosophic inquiry – indeed any subjective experience or “will to” subjectivity at all – can be absolutely defined in this manner is nothing short of idiocy. To believe such reveals that one fundamentally misunderstands what it even is that is going on when we say we are “thinking” or “philosophizing” or “seeking truth”. Experience is not black and white, no matter how much you (think you) want it to be.

Value ontology largely precludes truth/s as closed-impositional constructs, “thou-shalt”'s, solely positive-empirical or -nominal declarations. Rather the truths of what can be gathered under the heading “value ontology” are far more phenomenological, subjective and applied-direct. Their borders extend outward and vanish from sight behind horizonal lines, and inwardly these continue to vanish ahead of themselves, always hinting at what later begins to more fully and substantially disclose itself. Space/s are mapped, terrains marked, but no absolute boundaries are discovered.

As has also been pointed out already, failure to see clarity cannot be assumed to result from without alone. You must factor in the possibility that such unclarity is arising as a consequence of you yourself, for whatever reason. To circumvent this possibility it would be necessary for you to construct a sufficient and precise critique that would show where and how value ontological thought/s are inadequate, miscalculated or incorrect. What I find unfortunate is that you have not seemingly attempted any such precise critique, not generated of such a counter-position a substantial content and possibility for exploration, but have rather only stagnated at the most basic polemical level, interjecting occasional implied hints toward your own ideas as if this sort of vague inference constituted an actual argument, much less a rebuttal.

I for one would love to see a detailed critique of “value ontology”, which would mean you first define its core concepts as they seem to you and then proceed to demonstrate their partial or total invalidity. I am serious, I really wish you could provide such a demonstration. As a young and still-developing thought, value ontology desperately needs such attacks – but they must be good, useful attacks, of course. Potent, powerful, specific, forcing change/s upon the attacked object. In short, drawing blood. My main problem with your critique/s is they entirely fail to even bruise, let alone draw any blood.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:

Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Art and Reason Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What is the “inherent” (intrinsically-holding, or assumed, or ‘automatic’-structural) relationship between art (aesthetics, beauty, passion) and reason (logos, ethics, inference and imagination)? Is there such an inherence of relation here? Is art ethical? Does the play of art fall upon the passions, the moralisms and thus exclude itself from an ethical purview and possibility – is it the (social, psychological) morality that is the being of art, must we, like Kant, understand art to be an activity outside of a direct relevance and necessity to/for the ethical?

Or does art become ethical, reasonable (reason-ably motivating, intended, purposeful) through a process of subjective (re-)creation and valuing-application? Does the rational-conscious being draw art within itself to lend to art some quality of its own reason and ethical possibility? Is art a medium through which the ethical of the subject draws forth and gathers to itself its own possibility while the “animal”-psychological of the subject finds instead therein a passional release, respite and higher synthetic apprehension? Does art gather the subject at all levels of its being?

What is the ethics of art?


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Arcturus Descending
arrow
arrow
avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills

PostSubject: Re: Art and Reason Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:37 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable

Quote :
What is the “inherent” (intrinsically-holding, or assumed, or ‘automatic’-structural) relationship between art (aesthetics, beauty, passion) and reason (logos, ethics, inference and imagination)? Is there such an inherence of relation here?
I’m not sure if there is an ‘inherent’ relationship between art and reason…

Inherent:
1.Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute: “inherent dangers”.
2.Vested in (someone) as a right or privilege: "the president’s inherent power

You used the word ‘imagination’ above. I might say that it is our imagination that connects the two but is there anything inherent within it?

Quote :
Is art ethical?
No, it only appears to be ethical because it is endowed with the values and morals of the artist creating it - with or without intention or to the one perceiving it as such. It may change us in such a way that we become more ethical or moral beings as a result of it. So, in that sense, can art be considered ethical?

Quote :
Does the play of art fall upon the passions, the moralisms
Are the artist’s passions and morals responsible for and influence what he/she creates - yes, at least in part they are. They are the real material for creating. But perhaps real art must also be in the moment simply according to what one perceives, without the play of passions and morals. Our emotions do enter into our creative flow but there are degrees of difference between one’s emotions and passions. You use the word ‘passions’ which may also mean something that we desire/crave which goes beyond reason - but our emotions must necessarily be a part of the creative process - since the connection between the seer and the seen lies in the human being.

That might be a much more difficult kind of art to create - a more subdued emotionally but yet reasonable kind of art based on the desire to reflect the truth of the human experience in all of its reality.

Quote :
and thus exclude itself from an ethical purview and possibility
I suppose that would depend on what one would call art and again, the artist’s intentions. Some looking at The Rape of the Sabine Women might think it gross and anathema and that it came about as a result of the inner, out of control passions of the artist. Perhaps how we view art, tells us more about our own psychological selves than about the artist himself. I may be digressing here.

Some might consider and feel that The Declaration of Independence is also a written work of art - thereby it would be purviewed as within the realm of ethics, not excluding it …just as much as a wonderful painting would depict the truth of the human experience or the beauty, reality and truth of something in the universe.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness…

Quote :
– is it the (social, psychological) morality that is the being of art, must we, like Kant, understand art to be an activity outside of a direct relevance and necessity to/for the ethical?
In part, yes. We are social, psychological beings. But I would hope that art is so much more than that. It is also the creative freedom which draws itself from an inexhaustible source within our own personal spirits, our cores - as Nietzsche has said that “love is beyond good and evil” — art must necessarily go far beyond our social, cultural and psychological selves - I hope.

If i understand you correctly, or Kant, that is, and perhaps I am not, yes, art has great relevance and necessity, but must extend far beyond the ethical scope if it is to depict reality. It must be free to soar and to become, it is an expression which is in the moment and ever-changing in one’s imaginaton. That may include ethics but must reach beyond it to show the world and the human being in its reality and its illusion. In order to do that, ethics must sometimes fail.

Quote :
Or does art become ethical, reasonable (reason-ably motivating, intended, purposeful) through a process of subjective (re-)creation and valuing-application?
Only within our own minds perhaps…but I may be wrong. I think my issue is with the word “become”…

Quote :
Does the rational-conscious being draw art within itself to lend to art some quality of its own reason and ethical possibility?

Is art a medium through which the ethical of the subject draws forth and gathers to itself its own possibility while the “animal”-psychological of the subject finds instead therein a passional release, respite and higher synthetic apprehension? Does art gather the subject at all levels of its being?
Perhaps a better way of looking at it is that art shows us or reminds us of who we are…art is the ‘lender’ or the giver. We are the receivers. We can only see what we already are. Art is more like a mirror which reflects our inner selves.

Art is also like a dream. Perhaps it can only gather in those parts of ourselves in which we have some conscious awareness – enough to at least listen to what the work wants to tell/show us. Then perhaps it may flow through more of our being.

Quote :
What is the ethics of art?
My first thought is something which I read somewhere.

A Always
R Respect
T Truth

So for me the ethics of art in part is to always respect and to bear witness to the truth…

Another part of its ethics would be discipline, sacrifice and hard work…struggling to complete, out of love and the desire to go beyond ourselves, to create something hopefully which becomes a revelation, a dropping of some veils of the world surrounding us…which remained hidden and mystery before that time…and which perhaps will remain in part still hidden. If that makes sense.

…ad continuum…

Edited: On March 31th


Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.

Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."

“If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.”

Thomas Nagel
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Art and Reason Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
VaerosTanarg wrote:
Capable

Quote :
What is the “inherent” (intrinsically-holding, or assumed, or ‘automatic’-structural) relationship between art (aesthetics, beauty, passion) and reason (logos, ethics, inference and imagination)? Is there such an inherence of relation here?
I’m not sure if there is an ‘inherent’ relationship between art and reason…

Inherent:
1.Existing in something as a permanent, essential, or characteristic attribute: “inherent dangers”.
2.Vested in (someone) as a right or privilege: "the president’s inherent power

You used the word ‘imagination’ above. I might say that it is our imagination that connects the two but is there anything inherent within it?

I mean inherent as in structural, structural to either art or ethics. I am not assuming there is such a relationship, but I am interested in determining if one can be identified. To do so would require of us that we first know both what ‘ethics’ is as well as what ‘art’ is.

Quote :
Quote :
Is art ethical?
No, it only appears to be ethical because it is endowed with the values and morals of the artist creating it - with or without intention or to the one perceiving it as such. It may change us in such a way that we become more ethical or moral beings as a result of it. So, in that sense, can art be considered ethical?

Art can stimulate change in one’s ethical stance, then. Or stimulate new ethical awareness. Art as one means toward ethics. If this is true, then art possesses something inherently ethical, at least on the level of possibility.

Quote :
Quote :
Does the play of art fall upon the passions, the moralisms
Are the artist’s passions and morals responsible for and influence what he/she creates - yes, at least in part they are. They are the real material for creating. But perhaps real art must also be in the moment simply according to what one perceives, without the play of passions and morals. Our emotions do enter into our creative flow but there are degrees of difference between one’s emotions and passions. You use the word ‘passions’ which may also mean something that we desire/crave which goes beyond reason - but our emotions must necessarily be a part of the creative process - since the connection between the seer and the seen lies in the human being.

True. Art (is able to) reach up from all levels of subjective being.

Quote :
Quote :
and thus exclude itself from an ethical purview and possibility
I suppose that would depend on what one would call art and again, the artist’s intentions. Some looking at The Rape of the Sabine Women might think it gross and anathema and that it came about as a result of the inner, out of control passions of the artist. Perhaps how we view art, tells us more about our own psychological selves than about the artist himself. I may be digressing here.

Some might consider and feel that The Declaration of Independence is also a written work of art - thereby it would be purviewed as within the realm of ethics, not excluding it …just as much as a wonderful painting would depict the truth of the human experience or the beauty, reality and truth of something in the universe.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness…

I separate moralism from ethics. Ethics is strictly-speaking anti-moral, non-moral (this does not mean it cannot and indeed will not have moral consequences, however).

Quote :
Quote :
– is it the (social, psychological) morality that is the being of art, must we, like Kant, understand art to be an activity outside of a direct relevance and necessity to/for the ethical?
In part, yes. We are social, psychological beings. But I would hope that art is so much more than that. It is also the creative freedom which draws itself from an inexhaustible source within our own personal spirits, our cores - as Nietzsche has said that “love is beyond good and evil” — art must necessarily go far beyond our social, cultural and psychological selves - I hope.

If i understand you correctly, or Kant, that is, and perhaps I am not, yes, art has great relevance and necessity, but must extend far beyond the ethical scope if it is to depict reality. It must be free to soar and to become, it is an expression which is in the moment and ever-changing in one’s imaginaton. That may include ethics but must reach beyond it to show the world and the human being in its reality and its illusion. In order to do that, ethics must sometimes fail.

I believe that ethics emerges from a totality of view, from a more comprehensive and dispassionate reason. What is ethical emerges of necessity. Contrast this with the passions: they emerge out of arbitrariness, out of an evolutionary mandate which (largely) no longer (for us) exists. Or: ethics is the necessity of moving beyond the ‘evolutionary mandate’ of the moral-social being, it is the becoming-arbitrary of this being and the subsequent elevation of sociality to an entire new realm of possible utility and value-power.

Quote :
Quote :
Does the rational-conscious being draw art within itself to lend to art some quality of its own reason and ethical possibility?

Is art a medium through which the ethical of the subject draws forth and gathers to itself its own possibility while the “animal”-psychological of the subject finds instead therein a passional release, respite and higher synthetic apprehension? Does art gather the subject at all levels of its being?
Perhaps a better way of looking at it is that art shows us or reminds us of who we are…art is the ‘lender’ or the giver. We are the receivers. We can only see what we already are. Art is more like a mirror which reflects our inner selves.

Art is also like a dream. Perhaps it can only gather in those parts of ourselves in which we have some conscious awareness – enough to at least listen to what the work wants to tell/show us. Then perhaps it may flow through more of our being.

Yes, I believe art can and should reflect parts of ourselves back to us. The more we bring to artistic experience, the more we get out of it. Art potentiates being.

Quote :
Quote :
What is the ethics of art?
My first thought is something which I read somewhere.

A Always
R Respect
T Truth

So for me the ethics of art in part is to always respect and to bear witness to the truth…

Another part of its ethics would be discipline, sacrifice and hard work…struggling to complete, out of love and the desire to go beyond ourselves, to create something hopefully which becomes a revelation, a dropping of some veils of the world surrounding us…which remained hidden and mystery before that time…and which perhaps will remain in part still hidden. If that makes sense.

…ad continuum…

Yes, creation and the “truth of creation”, what is true about the creative act. Art is an unveiling, a dis-closing of (the) being (for whom art is art).


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Art and Reason Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:00 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
As I experience the creation process, art sometimes transcends my moral notions, surprises me in showing what also can be included in the good. It is a way to allow the passions to flow out into ethical form, I might say, so as to reflect on morality and show how fragile the cherished and protected judgments are. By the use of beauties, harmonies, symphonies, aesthetic relations and arrangements, elements that by themselves would be condemnable can be perceived as part of a structure that causes such a joyful experience that it myst be considered at least in part, or potentially part of, good. So, for me art has the power to be at once a-moral and towards higher ethics. But not all art does this. Mainly art that carries what I have come to call in the past weeks a “Luciferian” element, a playing-with-evil, which means a subjecting of evil. I say “not all art” but I mean hardly any art. Art is as yet too timid to play around with morality in this way. Whether art is tragic (condemning-liberating) romantic (idealistic-comforting) or nihilistic (condemning-comforting), what is lacking is a true affirmation. Hitherto, only in comedy, such affirmation has been attained, but this works on a very superficial level, which also means that it is instantly rejected as a pleasant moment of relief/oblivion, away from reality. What would be required for art to become truly transformative and empowering, in the sense of driving to surpass the deplorable state of the tool-wielding ape towards full being-hood of self-consciousness, a state of which “man” is but a precursor, is that the perspectival method that is exclusive to comedy, the “playful malice” that looks as if god-like from above and yet profoundly, un-hypocritically involved, is expanded in its application also to “serious” narratives. The subject needs to be forced to identify with more, needs to be deepened, made to feel more responsible, more real.

What I do not mean is satyrical art. This is cold, distant and hypocritical, stands only above. “Luciferian” art makes it at once impossible to condone and to reject. It is thus beyond morality, addresses something deeper, or perhaps just greater, more difficult and more valuable. Its effect would be paralyzing to the traditional moralist, activating to the one who seeks to become free, and in general very difficult to deal with but also to resist. At this point our “God” is still “Evil”, as this is what we consider to be above us, beyond our reach. Whatever amounts to this need to be incorporated into an ethical realm. Art can do this, but can the artist?


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Arcturus Descending
    arrow
    arrow
    avatar

Posts : 293
Join date : 2011-12-07
Location : Hovering amidst a battle of Wills

PostSubject: Re: Art and Reason Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:29 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
To Capable…

Quote :
I mean inherent as in structural, structural to either art or ethics. I am not assuming there is such a relationship, but I am interested in determining if one can be identified. To do so would require of us that we first know both what ‘ethics’ is as well as what ‘art’ is.
Well, barring morality, or our subjective ideas of what is good and bad, for me ethics is concerned with making careful and logical decisions, depending on particular situations and circumstances, where the greatest ‘real’ good may be achieved and where the idea of ‘to do no harm’ is always paramount in a person’s actions. Although emotions are important in these decisions, since we are human - at times, at least for me, I feel that emotions may get in the way of portraying stark reality, truth and fairness. But ethics has to be grounded in justice and fairness and what it means to be truly human - and I’m not sure that emotions can be taken out of that equation.

Quote :
Art can stimulate change in one’s ethical stance, then. Or stimulate new ethical awareness. Art as one means toward ethics. If this is true, then art possesses something inherently ethical, at least on the level of possibility.
But not of itself alone though. I think that there has to be within the individual a conscious awareness to begin with, or at least a growing awakening of consciousness. Then, art may stimulate ongoing ethical awareness (as you say) if that individual is indeed aware, to begin with, how art may teach and instruct and if they are open to it. For any kind of art to be ethical, for me, it must ALSO teach and instruct, it must be a mirror of the human condition and of one’s own inner condition.

‘Inherently ethical’ - as in structural again? For me, ‘possibility’ lies within the relationship between the individual and the object of art, if you understand my meaning here. Art alone, in and of itself, is nothing, without the observer. But much depends on the artist and the observer and his/her consciousness, essence, core and spirit. It is the individual who makes it come alive, just as it is the individual who, in actuality (where it counts) makes nature and the universe come alive. Okay, I’m digressing.

Quote :
True. Art (is able to) reach up from all levels of subjective being.
Do you mean that we ourselves draw out from within ourselves the expressions and interpretions which our own inner world and external world create?

Would there also be something called ‘objective being’ wherein no emotion is at play but simply reason and the desire to interpret the world in its true essence and reality? I may not have expressed that well.

Quote :
I separate moralism from ethics. Ethics is strictly-speaking anti-moral, non-moral (this does not mean it cannot and indeed will not have moral consequences, however)
Well, I don’t necessarily see ethics as anti-moral. For me, they do flow within the same waters, but I may be wrong here. For instance, the Ten Commandments can be viewed as being ethical in nature if one values them as standards of behavior or as a guiding compass in which one makes choices in particular moments and situations, and which lead to responsible decisions to ‘act accordingly’ where no harm is done - which may also be one’s own moral mandate - ‘to do no harm’. Would you consider The Ten Commandments to be moral - in that they implicitly deal with what is right and wrong? But I suppose I see your point since what is moral can become so blurred depending on one’s own religious and otherwise beliefs and what is also a matter of economics at times. Look at the abortion issue - at one time the taking of a life - as in abortion was considered illegal, immoral but it would seem that financial gain and the belief that a woman is entitled to own her own body, (which of course she is) and to do with it what she will, even at the expense of and having the choice to destroy the little life growing within her (which is separate from her own). I’m digressing here…

Quote :
I believe that ethics emerges from a totality of view, from a more comprehensive and dispassionate reason. What is ethical emerges of necessity. Contrast this with the passions: they emerge out of arbitrariness, out of an evolutionary mandate which (largely) no longer (for us) exists. Or: ethics is the necessity of moving beyond the ‘evolutionary mandate’ of the moral-social being, it is the becoming-arbitrary of this being and the subsequent elevation of sociality to an entire new realm of possible utility and value-power
I agree that an ethical person would necessarily want to see as much of the entire picture as is humanly possible before judging and assuming or presuming to know the right way to go, but I disagree with you here that that would come about from a totally dispassionate reason. The passions do emerge out of arbitrariness but are you actually saying here that there is no more necessity for them? Is it just our dry reason and logic which create the beauty of the world through art, paintings, poetry, books? Don’t be throwing the essential human baby out with the bathwater.

I don’t know - I may be wrong here or misunderstanding you, but if we move beyond the moral-social being, what is the point of ethical behavior? Maybe you can clarify what you mean. I’m probably missing your point. And what do you mean by possible utility and value power - does that pertain to the value of the human being or the power which some might exercise and control over the human being? Words don’t always explain much.

Quote :
Yes, I believe art can and should reflect parts of ourselves back to us. The more we bring to artistic experience, the more we get out of it. Art potentiates being
By instructing and teaching.

Quote :
So for me the ethics of art in part is to always respect and to bear witness to the truth…

Quote :
yes, creation and the “truth of creation”, what is true about the creative act. Art is an unveiling, a dis-closing of (the) being (for whom art is art).
It also unveils what is real and hopefully shows what is illusion. Even art that is fanciful in nature may be rich in disclosing a deeper meaning and reality of self - such as in the fairy tale, which points to something that cannot yet be gleaned until first going beyond what is on the surface, deeper and deeper into the story and allowing it to teach and instruct and reveal itself.

Having ENTIRELY NOTHING to do with fairy tales but …

I recently saw the movie “The Boy in the Striped Pajamas” about two young boys who’s paths cross and who secretly spend time together and become friends. The one is a little Jewish boy, Schmael, who is emprisoned in a concentration camp and the other is Bruno, the son of a nazi commandant(?) who lives nearby this concentration camp. At some point, Bruno, out of curiosity, decides that he wants to sneak into the concentration camp, not really knowing nor understanding the reality of it. Bruno had recently seen in his home a Nazi-propagated film which was set up by his own father in order to perpetrate and continue the Lie, in order to hide the true purpose and reality of the concentration camps. So the boys plan this ‘adventure’ and eventually Bruno manages to get under the barbed wire and into the camp. While walking through the inner camp, Bruno asks Schmael to take him to the ‘cafe’ (which was mentioned in the Nazi film) and Schmael looks quizzically at him, telling him that there is no cafe there.

Suddenly the Nazi soldiers come, herding a large group of these human beings, including the two boys, into the ‘showers’. (No words can describe my emotions here). At this point, through tell-tale signs, Bruno’s father and mother had already finally realized that Bruno is missing and discover just where he is, running frantically to save him in time. But they are too late. And the father is left staring at the door into which his son entered and met his fate with his little friend. And the father stared and he stared into what must have been the gaping mouth of hell for him when he saw and smelled the putrid smoke rising in the chimney above.

I was sadly aware throughout this madness to save Bruno that I too wanted Bruno to be saved. At first I never considered the full extent of what that actually meant because I was so caught up in the happy ending…the underlying, ‘unconscious’ feeling was that Bruno just did not BELONG there…but it could never be a happy ending but I didn’t consider that until later on. Afterwards, I reflected on it and realized that if this movie was truly to be ‘ethical art’ - to reflect Truth and the tragic human condition - if Art was to respect Truth, and not give way to illusion, and if this movie was to be a true mirror of the terrible consequences of fear, hate and bias, then there could be no happy ending. The only ethical and real conclusion to this movie was that Bruno could not be saved, as difficult as it is for me to say this because the saving of even one human life, especially that of a child, is the most important thing I feel, above all. But to make one life as more valuable and important than another, especially that of an innocent, and a child’s, under these circumstances, at least for me, not only dehumanizes us, but hides the awful truth.

For the writer to have done this, would have been to totally dis-value each and every human being everywhere and within that camp and within any concentration camp. So this to me is where ethics and art meet - and truth and reality triumph over illusion and the big Lie.

A Always
R Respect
T Truth

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Negative Definition Ethics Wed May 16, 2012 10:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
During discussions with James S. Saint and now also Capable, I’ve been made acutely aware of the gap between value ontology and a practicable philosophy that is non-mystical, logical. How to proceed from the notion of self-valuing and value deriving from that, to a concrete conception of value? I think I just got an idea for an approach. If self-value is so fundamentally embedded in all my reflections, it must perhaps remain unattainable to me, my type of reason. The most fundamental “things” I may “observe” are perhaps the objections to my self value - that which functions as a negation of it, me, - what is bad for me. I must try to externalize what limits me by conceptualizing it in terms of a physics, chemistry, electricity of valuing. The dynamic divided in objects, restrictions.

A first classification of restrictions; necessary ones (implicit in the being that creates its environmental cosmos) and unnecessary ones (subject only to the laws of time-space, the “consensus between subjects”, the common ground without which the majority could not survive.)

Ok, this gets overly political in its orientation – good, because chemistry is nothing other than the different distributions and tensions of commonly recognized qualities, politics.

Someone now opens the french windows next to me and cold streams in. Let me just repeat that an ontological ethics means a scientific ethics, and that this must contain what (I) clearly perceive as a threat.

The reason for this to work is its geometry. Logic is subservient to a triangle: object subject and otherness. These can be both forces for good and bad, in any given situation - what matters is the proportion of the facets.

I am taking a direction on speculation. I am only sustained here by the Parodital term ‘speculative ethics’, and by my own inexhaustible taste for speculating ‘intuitively’ - recklessly, without hindsight.
The intuition that came to me writing this post… and it makes sense because geometry is a form of beauty, and beauty is of course in the eye of the beholder, but despite its pure and exalted subjectivity, or even because of it, conceptions of it range within certain bounds - beauty not to be confused with ‘object of desire’. A thing is only beautiful if one can enjoy it without possessing it.

What this has to do with negativity, objections and negative powers, - my coffee is getting cold.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Doric basterd
    Doric basterd
    avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Negative Definition Ethics Wed May 16, 2012 10:54 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster

  1. The distortion of beauty, the reduction to appetite.

The meaning of philosophy/art/evolution.
All is driven by art. The means to overcome unattractiveness, to cause attraction.

Essential attraction is unoperative without a pulsating dynamic pushing outward. “Time” is such pulsating sustaining the noticeable attraction/value.

  1. The cessation of time/pulsating dynamic.

Hmm, so next to ugly lust, lethargy is bad. Now then pride… which is perhaps the distortion of self-value by exaggeration of its contextual importance – by misplacing it out of excessive demand. Pride is then excessive demand (for being) - lack of being. Would rank pride as one of the severest conditions.

  1. Manipulating the affect of lack into the appearance of excess so as to draw resources under false pretenses. (Would require a lot more specification)

Wrath…
4. Destruction of objects that negate ones values.

Is this a sin against value, under the paradigm of value ontology? “Questionable.” - Nietzsche.

Then there is the most obvious “sin against the spirit of value”… envy.

  1. Valuing a value one desires negatively because of an incapacity to attain it.

A strange version of misplaced value:

  1. To draw in materials containing strong value-signals, to experience these signals as value. (Interesting that gluttony would be the sin related to my Pentad post on Interestedness).

OI have to play the movie in my head to arrive at the seventh sins. The blood on the carpet.

Greed is perhaps jealousy continued in the condition of wealth. Greed is perhaps the automated mechanism of the experience of chasing value as value. Wrath and Greed would be lesser sins in a Nietzschean paradigm, envy would be far greater sin in a Nietzschean than in a Catholic world. Envy makes one a slave. Greed can be highly useful in becoming a master at times. So, and certainly more so, will generosity, voluntary expentidure of strength.

Of course envy can lead to a stimulus too - but Greed is self-sufficient - it relies on an aberration in the self-valuing rather than a systemic lack of it. It could be ‘positively cured’ - turned into a systemic advantage. It includes knowledge.

I am making a case for Greed to not be a sin on ethical ontological grounds. It means: taking advantage of the resources of others without consideration to suit a superficial fascination with the capacity to acquire. Or? Am I so greedy perhaps that I do not see greed for what it is??

  1. Abstraction of value…?

" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Doric basterd
    Doric basterd
    avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Negative Definition Ethics Wed May 16, 2012 11:14 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
For badness beyond the seven sins I’ll have to draw in some more spiration. It’s largely about a misplacement of the value because of an interpretation of it pertaining to a minor attribute of the value.
(Not) discerning the values in the goods.

Arg. A workable ethics requires a hierarchy of all the known attributes of all the known objects, as well as all their consequences. Difficult, heavy work bound to fail. The result of it would be quite beyond imagining - an active existence. Willing existence precisely away from the recurrence of the same.

Screw the same, never anymore the same! Let’s hijack the universe, propel it from here into the billion year glory of the galactic polis, the mining of the black hole, -

But this is my positive ethics, composed perhaps of a mixture of the above mentioned conditions, be it from the seed of my virtuous philosophy.

Message

Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: A Question To Philosophers Thu May 17, 2012 10:15 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I want to ask a very important question that I personally believe separates the men form the boys in philosophy, and I believe it is an ethical one:

What justification can you produce for publishing philosophical thought?

The answer should probably read like a mission statement, but who knows?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Thu May 17, 2012 11:55 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Shouldn’t the text itself justify its publication? I mean the philosophical element, the evolutionary agent.

I have published a handful of short philosophical texts on media other than free access fora, but I would not make explicit my motive for their publication to the platform where it is published.

The beauty of a philosophical idea is that it is not integrated by a mind on the terms of that mind, but that it rewrites these terms, breaches them and installs new ones.

I don’t want to install half ideas. I wish to publish on value ontology only when it is also taking on the shape of a cosmology, wherein a narrative may take place. In other words, when it is clear to me what it means for it to rule.

For it to rule elsewhere I have to let it rule my own psyche and actions - and this requires that I make choices in terms of historical truths. I can’t hold a birds eye perspective on the historical dialectic, anymore, I am in the process of cutting ties with false or thin loyalties and identifying my weakest necessary links. This world is in danger, as mastery over it is not yet an overt claim, even if it is the objective. All this can still be an advantage to us (you, Pezer, me, the others who are reading). The danger to the world consists precisely in the lack of an ontology of value. “Flexibility” is the enemy of this philosophy.

I do not wish this to be the enemy to the beneficiaries of the current science of value, to the realm of speculation. I remind myself to see the historical relation between banking and the renaissance, to the creation of real ‘surplus’ or splendor using an imagined capital. A Trust. The world runs on trust, placing investments. Capitalism is where it’s at, or is at where it is. There are a few basic syntax errors, benefitting conservative holders pf large real value, enabled and suggested by completely isolating the capital market from the market of goods.

Value ontology is of course a tool to identify different types, categories of value - it helps to connect aims to real possibilities, and to project corners to turn and transformations to sustain and dominate in the future, given a certain valuing become action. Not only would it be more difficult to get insanely rich overnight over the back of a couple of million others, but it would become harder to lose value in investments. I do not think that any wealth should be redistributed, but I do want existing wealth to be invested into projects benefiting the cultivation, from this violent testtube content, western civilization, of a veritably super-human type. It’s the only way out of this reaction for us, apart from disintegration. It will certainly happen to a segment of the population in some way - the abyss between master and slave is widening. “99%”… the term says it all.

I am not unmoved by the historical symmetry of Greece’s antithetical behavior to the ethics of the Eurozone - perhaps I should go and see with my own eyes what is going on there, to make up my mind on what is worth saying, and how it deserves to be said.

What is required is an ethics of power, which is to say that real power needs to be understood as arising from truthful, ontologically sound ethics. Searches will be enabled into the real mechanism of every power structure. Conniving will have to attain levels undreamt of by Machiavelli or even Spielberg, and sound ruling will become a much more easy task.

“Heisenberg says: Relax.”


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Parodites
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Thu May 17, 2012 1:21 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
My justification for writing books is that I have something to say.


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Thu May 17, 2012 3:52 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
For the record, I am including internet forum posts in my definition of publication.

“Because I have something to say” sounds lazy at best, meaningless at worst.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Thu May 17, 2012 10:44 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Spoken like someone who truly has nothing to say.


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Fri May 18, 2012 1:47 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I was attacking your ideas, not yourself.

Why do you get emotional? Most distasteful.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Mon May 21, 2012 12:12 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I thought it wasn’t a bad summary of the justification of writing philosophy.
A newspaper writer doesn’t necessarily have something to say. Neither does the writer of a sitcom or a commercial. A philosopher writes with blood, Parodites may have understated.

Style is the skeleton of clarity.
A philosophy reliant on production of value is not a philosophy of terminology, it is a philosophical turmoil of strength and wisdom, a threat to society. Breaking the laws we are subject to when managers and women are the ones writing history.

Philosophers are like dragons - man can not tolerate them in his life, but needs them in his myths. He just not always needs myths. Philosophy is in a sense a luxury, provided by the abundance of mans dominion over other species.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides

Last edited by Fixed Cross on Mon May 21, 2012 12:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Mon May 21, 2012 12:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
No other species seems to create danger for itself, as man does.
Philosophy can be this danger, has been - it has accompanied man to the discovery of the means to his self-destruction. What Nietzsche concluded as the ultimate danger was true, the means he himself took to overcome it were false. But he knew this, it seems; he who turned out well - ceases to enjoy something when it is no longer wholesome for him.

But what is wholesome?
What could Nietzsche have done on that eve of the Apocalypse, but surrender to madness? This was the honest thing to do. This is where all philosophers are sick: they do not cease to enjoy truth when it is no longer wholesome for them.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Pezer
    builder
    builder
    avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Mon May 21, 2012 5:08 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I paraphrase here, but Nietzsche said something along the lines of “Through my Pride, my Truth. And if one must go, let it be Truth.”

Still, Nietzsche did justify his publications. That is, in fact, what set him apart from sand castle philosophers.

“Because I have something to say?”

No offense, but this is a teenager’s response. Yours, FC, was indirect, but sincere and with content.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: A Question To Philosophers Tue May 22, 2012 1:38 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The most direct answer I can give you now would be something along the lines of: I came into a world insanely ignorant of its drives and direction. Only twice or three times I found a thinker who had the vaguest clue as to what is going on. I drew what they touched with their fingertips into my full grasp. Now I could try to communicate this understanding to people who are otherwise content running around randomly and uttering fragments of long shattered possibilities.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: The Luciferian Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:31 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have in the recent weeks posted a few things on ILP and in another thread on this forum, on “Luciferian” x. The silence in reaction to these posts has been deafening and gave pause for thought. I realize that I may risk to alienate those with whom I otherwise have a strong philosophical rapport. Besides, these notions do not actually indicate anything concrete, they are merely suggestive, and perhaps suggestive of things I do not intend to suggest.

While writing these posts I already felt uncomfortable and uncertain. As they address the more uncomfortable and uncertain elements of our political society this is no wonder - but the question is whether there is any merit in posting such speculative and controversial thoughts that do nothing to clarify or to aid towards any ethical aim.

In terms of philosophy, I am 100% certain that I am making sense, and this is corroborated by my friends here on BTL. In terms of politics, I am almost 100% certain that I am only in part accurate. I always run into trouble whenever I try to define “what really is going on” in terms of politics - and have arrived at the conclusion that I am per definition wrong even if I am also right, whenever I try to sufficiently define, in terms of outlining, something in this context.

So I withdraw my notions of the Luciferian, or at least, take a distance toward them. I will proceed on the philosophical path you have come to expect of me, and which I am proud to be capable of walking.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides

Last edited by Fixed Cross on Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:46 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Fixed Cross wrote:
I have in the recent weeks posted a few things on ILP and in another thread on this forum, on “Luciferian” x. The silence in reaction to these posts has been deafening and gave pause for thought. I realize that I may risk to alienate those with whom I otherwise have a strong philosophical rapport. Besides, these notions do not actually indicate anything concrete, they are merely suggestive, and perhaps suggestive of things I do not intend to suggest.

While writing these posts I already felt uncomfortable and uncertain. As they address the more uncomfortable and uncertain elements of our political society this is no wonder - but the question is whether there is any merit in posting such speculative and controversial thoughts that do nothing to clarify or to aid towards any ethical aim.

In terms of philosophy, I am 100% certain that I am making sense, and this is corroborated by my friends here on BTL. In terms of politics, I am almost 100% certain that I am only in part accurate. I always run into trouble whenever I try to define “what really is going on” in terms of politics - and have arrived at the conclusion that I am per definition wrong even if I am also right, whenever I try to sufficiently define, in terms of outlining, something in this context.

So I withdraw my notions of the Luciferian, or at least, take a distance toward them. I will proceed on the philosophical path you have come to expect of me, and which I am proud to be capable of walking.

This luciferian notion where applies to art has been useful for me. The word has a unique connotation here and implies something otherwise seemingly alien or which evades clear articulation. I have been trying to distill my thoughts along these lines, with regard to something which I feel must need greater explication here:

What ought be the role of luciferian art to aesthetics generally? The luciferian element seems a highest elevation of the principle of reaction, opposition in that it seems designed to push the moral-aesthetic to its furthest limit, and beyond. Lucifer pushed the limit of man beyond God; ought luciferian art also push art beyond the limit of all that has traditionally become able to encapsulate the aesthetic sense?

Maybe this topic should be re-named The Luciferian… but I do see your point, most people are unable to talk about this notion. Which, of course, makes it the perfect choice here. But I am interested in any difference you see between your conception of the luciferian here (as applied to art, aesthetics, creation) and a “mere” radically-oppositional reactionism. Of course this latter can be taken to induce a Hegelian sort of dialectical synthesis, so perhaps the luciferian is a way of provoking this sort of synthetic possibility?


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:13 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Great insights. I had not arrived at any of these thoughts as I remained morally bound, fearful and doubtful of the merit/value, justification of using the term Lucifer, which prevented me from observing coolly what I was actually putting on the table. I do not wish to immediately fill the space that you open here, I will take some time to reflect. I will however change the topics name as you suggest, because with your response the entire reason for this disclaimer vanishes, and what remains is the actual subject, which is indeed, The Luciferian.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Abstract
    Oracle
    Oracle
    avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:12 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Now i am interested, what where your thoughts on the Luciferian? heck i don’t even know what Luciferian means…? Embarassed


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” -Socrates
“Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God.” -Cicero
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it.” -Aristotle
“I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aleatory
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:35 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Capable wrote:
What ought be the role of luciferian art to aesthetics generally? The luciferian element seems a highest elevation of the principle of reaction, opposition in that it seems designed to push the moral-aesthetic to its furthest limit, and beyond. Lucifer pushed the limit of man beyond God; ought luciferian art also push art beyond the limit of all that has traditionally become able to encapsulate the aesthetic sense?

When you say this, I’m reminded of impressionism, cubism, surrealism, abstract (esp. textiles), postmodernism, etc.—really every major movement since the late 19th century mutates through a weird syncretism of iconoclasm and apotheosis: deterritorialization and reterritorialization. Impressionism seemed to mimic the world reflected upon a zephyr-rippled lake (contra facsimiles of sybarite ‘Louis’s, corpulent concubines, and the decadent splendor of the court), they used violets and blues not for insalubrious, bruised flesh, but for the shadows cast upon the most fair of rosy complexions–and they did all this very fast; Cubism scrapped whole, congruous form—it’s shattered, a jumbled juxtaposition of abstraction qua cracked mirrors; Duchamp asked if a toilet isn’t art, Dali queried why an octopus isn’t a brush, Magritte levitated an apple to hide his face while saying “Ceci n’est pas une pipe,” Ernst did his thing and the rest followed suit; Postmodernism nidified sardonic lenses symbolizing self-applying salt shakers of irony and satire, insinuating themselves upon every applicable dish until pop culture’s salting itself mired the entire movement in a collective existential quandary; Rothko scoffed at Michelangelo and spun impossibly captivating fields of color, Pollack hurled frumious cans of paint in vain attempts to metastasize his alcoholism on the canvas, and countless campus-haunting aesthetes welded found objects together with neon paint and Elmer’s, turning for validation with imploring puppy-dog eyes to philosophy privy critics; a mousy, near-albino painted soup cans and icon-ized gratuitous nudity and salacious themes until a member of his artificial family introverted him by means of a pistol; a group of maverick virtuosos contradictorily disguised their work as photography—my montage (especially the second time through) is plagued by omissions and perhaps a bit of anachronism, but my point is this: if the Luciferian is as you say, then is it not the catalyst behind the evolution of art itself, and how then is it defined?—as an aesthetic, a(n) (a)morality, or a specific temporality (zeitgeist of an evanescent present moment)?


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?

Last edited by Aleatory on Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:11 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:54 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory – your beautiful post describes the diametrical opposite of what I understand as the limit to be pushed. In simple terms, the l9th and 20th century revolutions in art were an inquisition into what can be art, whereas the Luciferian would be a question of what art can be. In simplified terms, and doing a lot of injustice to a lot of great art, the movements you describe would have been a breaking open of the lower limit of art, thereby including what I would call the elements of chaos and the mundane into the realm of aesthetics, and in this process moving toward a-moralism. The Luciferian should be the breaking open of the upper limit of art.

This “upper limit” refers to the process of the creation of culture. As the Homeric art created the ethical groundwork (or perhaps more apt, heavenly Form) of the Athenian mindset, from which, through the immensely successful self-institutionalizing of this mindset, followed Rome, from which followed the Church with artists like Michelangelo, Bernini and such to shape the “upper limit” of the Catholic empire (Quite literally exemplified int he sistine chapel). We can see that the highest, most valued art has been the symbolization of morality, i.e. God as the upper limit of the state.

All the post-representative movements you describe represent to me the death of this God, or the loss of teleology in art, with as the remainder ‘l’art pour l’art.’ The Luciferian should be seen as the reintroduction of teleology into art, the effort of man to stop contemplating the empty throne of God, the vacuous upper limit (the naked object in the room, the toilet), and to boldly ascend to this throne himself, and take place in there.

What it would mean to claim the locus of what had until some 150 years back been felt as God, has up until this point been far too great a burden for man. God, as as noble and good as man thought him as he was alive and well, appears, when we consider what He has been responsible for, quite evil. And this is actually the most common present-day objection to God – not that He doesn’t exist, but that He is a violent maniac.

To take a position similar to what we have imagined as the divine position (and this is all God has been to art, an imagined position of supreme power) man can not simply be besides good and evil, in the sense of being anarchistic, not-valuing power-structures, but he must move beyond this duality, which means through it, breaking the notional realities of these judgments. This is not a question of disinterest, but of pain. We can not simply dismiss what is embedded in our moral skeleton, our physiology, our pre-cognitive impulses, our linguistic configuration, which has existed as long as written history. The de-hierarchizing art-projects of the past century have been attempts at condition-less, priceless negation of the burden of power. These attempts have failed the world, and man is back at square one, standing at Gods empty throne which appears to many as crueler and more forbidding than ever. Western man has exhausted all the energetic, courage-and liberty-generating resources of the subconscious to break with his responsibility toward God, only to be drawn into an extremely rigid shadow-morality, representing not any positive idea, but merely Gods absence and the reckless efforts of his orphans to obscure their anxiety to themselves by preaching happiness and enacting nothingness. The circuitry of a nihilistic society.

The moral fabric of these times are of a historical shallowness, as it is a continuous disowning of the void. Narrative art at this point is aimless, weak, spineless and far more conservative than it has ever been – speaking from a narrow mindedness belonging not to certain problematically privileged classes but to the generally dis-privileged creature than now calls itself by the name “we are all humans!”.

To move forward from this means to ove through something, destroying something, breaking away from this Demiurg, this thoroughly ignoble God-surrogate, abandoning the commandment that all be equal which implies that all is meaningless. The notion of evil has to be penetrated into its phenomenology, which means that it has to be touched. As before the death of God, mans greatest fear was to be touched by evil, he must now reach to touch evil himself, as a disowned remainder of his being, to make it his own, include it into a moral aesthetics – as far as this will prove to be posible.

(The limit of morality can of course not be itself integrated, but it needs to be pushed back by integrating that which presently represents this limit (in western mans own sphere of responsibility). Our type desperately needs moral breathing space, his self-negation can not go on much longer)

As Parodites has made clear, the new ethics shall be a speculative ethics; as art has been the explication of the limits of morality, the Good, “Luciferian art” means explication of the limits of the Daemonic. This is not a work for the faint of heart, and I stand before it in fear and trembling – I must address the darkest dagger in my own psyche before I can begin to move foward to claim for man the throne that he has hitherto filled only with his imagination. “Lucifer” represents something that is for man a necessary part of his worldview, but lies beyond the reach of his personal conscience.

I see this now as the only way in which man can theoretically regain contact with his political-economic actions, which are absolutely beyond the reach of his moral good vs evil logic. Man, at least the philosophical class standing between the working class and the ruling capital-machine, must establish value differences beyond good and evil. Until now the sphere “beyond good and evil” has for philosophy been a theoretical, an ideal, un-filled-in by reality, therefore undifferentiated, non-being. The concrete artist, not the abstract philosopher, must venture out as a pioneer into this terrain, establishing new law in the wilderness.

There is a great unchartd territory that is at this point unseen, hidden as the discrepancy between morality and futurality. To will the future, under all conditions, this means to integrate what is necessary and unavoidable into morality. Morality thereby loses its status as an absolute, fixed good, loses the power to result in universal principles, and becomes the continuous effort of a speculative ethics.

If this operation is to be successful, man will live guided by a philosophical machinery. Thinking will no longer be isolated incident, a curiosity - the thinker will no longer be the archetypical hermit ascetic, but part of a war-effort to keep mankind sane in the direct apprehension of his power.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Aleatory
    bowstring
    bowstring
    avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:36 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I think perhaps this ‘upper limit’ has been breached, namely by surrealism. Andre Breton, in the manifesto: “Pure psychic automatism, by which one proposes to express, either verbally, in writing, or by any other manner, the real functioning of thought. Dictation of thought in the absence of all control exercised by reason, outside of all aesthetic and moral preoccupation.” Note that last bit, “outside of all aesthetic and moral preoccupation.” Though seemingly an apotheosis of the [un/sub]conscious mind, perhaps it neglects to deify itself. Well, but if God were a simulacrum in the first (and thus his throne a vacant altar from the get-go), what need have we to take this seat if not to wield the hegemony of Religion, the scepter of the Vatican against the people ourselves? Art as the expression of dasein, this attempt to make connections outside oneself despite this solipsistic condition; what should be a free territory if not this? And if we instigate an infection via the throne of God—whether he sit there or we affect an entirely one-sided coup—is this not the Trojan-horse-totalitarianism of Rousseau, the bacillus inherited by Marx and Nietzsche alike?—not just “If man will not be free, you must force him to be free” but ‘buy not the fantasies sold by civilization but those I sell you of a recursion to the natural order, of the Noble Savage’ (which finds its analog in Marx’s proletariat dictatorship as the reterritorialization of the bourgeois dictatorship and its metastasis in Nietzsche’s reterritorialization of Christian morality).


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:23 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The problem with the abandonment of moral concerns in art I is that this scepter against ourselves continues to be wielded, despite a surrealist awakening of an anarchistic instinct in the individual. What I mean to point to is indeed a new form of imperial art, but not to glorify the noble savage or any Nietzschean ideal, but to make accessible the “machine” (capital) to human valuing capacity.

I am not sure that capitalism can or should be overthrown, as it is a much more direct manifestation of man-as-valuing than any communitarian models can be. It should rather be refined, at the same time as mans morality expands, becomes less cramped - so that morality and machine move towards a synthesis.

Surrealism is a liberation of the individual from the machine, but it does not thereby render the machine obsolete, does not contradict the machines hegemony. The new art I propose is a celebration of the machine, not by making it into something that it is not (God) but to allow for man to morally take part in the machine, and thereby refine/reform it into something (more) truly beautiful.

In short, art represents the power to make known and acceptable by making beautiful - to reveal the Real as accessible by masking it as recognizable. This stands in direct opposition to the power of science to “disclose as-is”, which is simply the invocation of formless force into the image of the world, brutalizing, making unaccessible to ethical being, “objectifying” - reducing all to function of a purposeless inevitability, negating the general ground of being in the finalizing of its most artificially isolated set of consequences. So far, man has only been able to discern aesthetics in the apprehension of phenomena disclosed by science - not to subject the approach to science (the capacity to objectify, brutalize) to aesthetics, which is to subject force to form, which is to create in the sense of living (re: building, dwelling, thinking).

To apply the ethicizing, perspective-enabling power of art to the economic-political status quo requires a furthering of capitalistic thinking, not an anarchistic will to be free of the capitalistic machine. So I am not speaking of the individual and his art (in this sense I might agree that art has already disclosed thinking) but of society and its art. We can not, as a society, be free from “evil” or tyranny. “Society” is precisely what it means to be tyrannized. But tyranny by what? Largely a matter of (re)defining the will to comfort, and the means we use to battle for this comfort.

In this sense it will be useful to look at the classical word - how it defined itself in its most conservative form - its rituals and institutions. It was at ease with its will to dominate all other life, and was at ease by virtue of its ritualized institutions, its state-art. Enlightening state art might mean a return of the colonial spirit under different, more refined terms. It must mean the institutionalization of the will (of the west) to persist. Institutionalizing means to cast into form, which means forging into an aesthetics.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Aleatory
    bowstring
    bowstring
    avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:32 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Then you believe in an objective aesthetic or that if an intersubjective aesthetic cannot be agreed unanimously upon, we will be forced to accept your aesthetic? Luciferian aside, this seems awfully fascist—removing the possibility for outward subjective valuation by force. “True” beauty—what is this? Who defines what is “truly” beautiful and is this in fact “truly” beautiful or merely what Mrs. Rand dictates is suitably labeled beautiful? “If man will not be free, we must force him to be free.” In these cases, or even with Nietzsche’s morality, these authoritative objects (“true”, “free”, “moral”) lose their meaning; truth metamorphs to opinion, freedom to dog runs, morality to will, these words become denominations relative to the preference of the ruling power–Thrasymachus’ justice. Celebrating the uncomfortable nature of high art—as it is practiced even today—is one thing, and a totalitarian rule over something as precious to an individual nature as art is quite another. But maybe I’m missing your point here, as you bring up culture.

So this aesthetic is not of the individual but of the cultural order? (and further it is to “celebrate the machine” whose tyranny we currently enjoy? We celebrate our own oppression? Is this like the field mouse who scurries to the cat so as to expedite his death, an ironic resignation, or what?) Do you mean to have us enforce some quasi-eugenics of art, a nationalist aesthetic like the Big Five did for the Russian Symphony (except they didn’t insinuate this aesthetic upon others)…I don’t know, I’m afraid I’m not clear on what you’re implying we do—or at least I hope I’m not. Art has a much greater purpose than Heidegger purports; more than cultural, more than economico-political, more than allegorical representation of the world, it is personal expression, an attempt to reach out and connect, to—for just an evanescent moment—escape this terminally solipsistic condition—and in this way its purpose, its telos, is infinitely discursive. Art isn’t something you can constrain; it’s an unbreakable horse, an inexpugnable force of human nature that will have its way…and what you seem to be describing feels akin to the US Corps of Engineers and the Mississippi River. It’s better to let it run its course…in my opinion.


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:24 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I realize this is a sensitive subject, (see OP) but that is no reason to misread me as you have. A few points: You conclude, not from what I write but in some other way, that I would want to ban any kind of art. Of course, I don’t. And you suggest that a culture or collective is objective, or warrants objectivity. It isn’t, and doesn’t - culture is always the product of vital expressions of a particular, context bound subjectivity, with which other subjects, sharing in part this context, can identify as subjects.

Quote :
So this aesthetic is not of the individual but of the cultural order?
As Mozarts music represented an Empire to itself (which means to the people of which it is constructed) much in the same way as Greek architecture did, the aesthetics I propose would be of a cultural order. But I don’t believe in a duality between culture and individual. Culture is the medium for individuality, and cultural order is the result of art. We probably use very different methods of reasoning, so this may not make sense to you at all - but be careful not to infer too much too easily.

Quote :
and further it is to “celebrate the machine” whose tyranny we currently enjoy? We celebrate our own oppression?
I am not actually tyrannized. I live in abundant comfort with a lot of possibilities for expression. These possibilities have increased over my lifetime.

Of course I can go along with all the objections against all social injustices. But part of the function of this art I propose is to liberate art from its role as “rebel”, something at which it never was any good. Art, as it liberates the individual from all kinds of isolation, within and without himself, always sustains order. It is the lifeblood of culture, without which the machine (the “monster” of will to power) is incapable of forming a social order.

So when I suggest that art celebrates the machine, I want the machine to become a space for a social order, so as for humans to claim responsibility for the machine. The machine exists as will to power, no matter that a mans conscience has him withdraw from cognitive acceptance of this fact. As soon as man feels himself morally superior to the system that supports his life in practical terms, he has several options, e.g. - to attempt to leave; to become a “rogue cell” out to create disorder and to disrupt or overthrow power; to become passive-aggressive towards his direct environment; to actively transform the system from within so as for it to become morally on the level of that individual.

For this latter option to be possible, some positive, if perhaps latent, qualities of the machine have to be recognized, as a ground to build on, to improve. These would logically be the qualities that lead the morally superior man to his moral superiority. I think that much of the moral opposition against the capitalist tyranny is groundless (the ground of the morality by which the order is judged to be tyrannical is not identified as part of the ground of this order), and therefore ineffective.

As the state is always built on representation (art, artifice, symbolics), the symbols attributed to it shape the states essence.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Fixed Cross
    Doric basterd
    Doric basterd
    avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:30 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
What are we actually against ?

Let’s explicate what is wrong with the machine.
Let’s not assume anything, no pre-given morality, no a priori categories of good and evil.
The expositions and arguments for condemnation of power-that-is range from the implausibly plausible to the absurd. What, in all of its mechanism, is invalid ?

I withdraw my suggestion that art should celebrate the machine - it should celebrate a machine. As we envision it.

For the meaning of “machine” I refer to without-musics post here.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Aleatory
    bowstring
    bowstring
    avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:20 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I had started a reply to your previous post, but it feels largely irrelevant to me now. I still feel I should relate this snippet from it: “Regrettably, I misread two or three sentences leading to “removing the possibility for outward subjective valuation by force.”—this is not warranted by your text and I apologize. My main objection is of proposing an aesthetic rather than creating it, otherwise leaving the rivers and rivulets of art and aesthetic to run their course; if you wish to start a new movement, do so.”

Fixed Cross wrote:
What are we actually against ?

Let’s explicate what is wrong with the machine.
Let’s not assume anything, no pre-given morality, no a priori categories of good and evil.
The expositions and arguments for condemnation of power-that-is range from the implausibly plausible to the absurd. What, in all of its mechanism, is invalid ?

I withdraw my suggestion that art should celebrate the machine - it should celebrate a machine. As we envision it.

For the meaning of “machine” I refer to without-musics post here.

And I think at least one form of art—which for some absurd reason I’ve neglected to mention—already has achieved this end: jazz. (Capable’s culpable for my sudden application of this form; I’d recognized its relevance to the topic, but didn’t think of bringing it up until Capable suggested it.) I mean, jazz simultaneously obeys, contradicts, and transcends all musical precedents: you can describe it in terms of music theory, but it changes key more whimsically than Debussy or Ravel, uses tonalities as daring as Stravinsky, and is absolutely irreverent; contrast the technique of Chico Marx to someone performing Liszt.

Jazz is, to me, the apotheosis of these machinic multiplicities—likewise of rhizomatics—each machine connected to and reciprocally driving one another, infinitely interwoven double articulations; ear-brain informs thought-emotion informs thought-action informs appendage-instrument, etc.—and on so many strata I’m simply unable to list a significant fraction of. Observe the musical strata of the piano in a line by Peter Martin (or any great jazz pianist) where branching lines of flight lay before him, taking at his digression one or another: if this isn’t actual machines, actual rhizome-proliferation…I don’t know. Am I making any sense? I’m going to leave off here and go play.

I’ll leave you this video, perhaps it will illustrate what I mean.

There’s a single theme, a single point of departure from which this all proliferates.


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Aleatory wrote:
I had started a reply to your previous post, but it feels largely irrelevant to me now. I still feel I should relate this snippet from it: “Regrettably, I misread two or three sentences leading to “removing the possibility for outward subjective valuation by force.”—this is not warranted by your text and I apologize. My main objection is of proposing an aesthetic rather than creating it, otherwise leaving the rivers and rivulets of art and aesthetic to run their course; if you wish to start a new movement, do so.”
Yes! This is of course the only possible way to approach it, art. You can not pre-conceptualize art. Or - can you? Honest question. Did Pythagoras not pre-conceptualize art with his invention of our basic string-tuning mathematics? I want to know what you, a musician, think about this. You have already said a great deal, as Jazz does in a sense defeat the pre-conceptualized rules that the system imposes. This defeating the rules led to whole new forms of music, new rules - I want to know the most pro-active, self-defining music you can think of, and how this music can be pushed.

Can we push without preconceptualization?

Please give links.
Let this forum be flooded with art.

I know nothing of post-jazz “classical” music, which is how I’d interpret what you describe from the outside - I take Jazz to be improvisation on a set of chords - the stuff you mention - is that written reproduced?

I am fearful to post art as I am unspecialized to the extreme - there is no field in music where I am actually knowledgeable, surpass others in knowledge. Except maybe for filmmusic of the 80’s and 90’s. I could not find anything that isn’t obvious. I guess to a great extent, I only trust the obvious. But music makes obvious the previously unobvious.

Preomethean (I like better) Art is preconceptualized as lightenin our path, taking control of vision.
Beyond fire as God, toward filre as man.

Has not fire, as destruction-regeneration of carbon, always been elusive as long as death was respected as beyond?
Therefore: Art, music that introduces us to the death that is already here.

this is what I seek - not to end the cycle, but to include the end of the cycle into another cycle - a vaster, more European-Asian, Land-(not sea) based experiments toward self-recognition of a desolate world. How long has our history not been an accumulation of misery?
Where did this start?

My answer: since nature lacked music and became man.
Man and music have been separate. Jazz, it seems true, has re-integrated man into music.

Which jazz-piano piece would you name most Promethean?

Quote :

Fixed Cross wrote:
What are we actually against ?

Let’s explicate what is wrong with the machine.
Let’s not assume anything, no pre-given morality, no a priori categories of good and evil.
The expositions and arguments for condemnation of power-that-is range from the implausibly plausible to the absurd. What, in all of its mechanism, is invalid ?

I withdraw my suggestion that art should celebrate the machine - it should celebrate a machine. As we envision it.

For the meaning of “machine” I refer to without-musics post here.

And I think at least one form of art—which for some absurd reason I’ve neglected to mention—already has achieved this end: jazz. (Capable’s culpable for my sudden application of this form; I’d recognized its relevance to the topic, but didn’t think of bringing it up until Capable suggested it.) I mean, jazz simultaneously obeys, contradicts, and transcends all musical precedents: you can describe it in terms of music theory, but it changes key more whimsically than Debussy or Ravel, uses tonalities as daring as Stravinsky, and is absolutely irreverent; contrast the technique of Chico Marx to someone performing Liszt.

Jazz is, to me, the apotheosis of these machinic multiplicities—likewise of rhizomatics—each machine connected to and reciprocally driving one another, infinitely interwoven double articulations; ear-brain informs thought-emotion informs thought-action informs appendage-instrument, etc.—and on so many strata I’m simply unable to list a significant fraction of. Observe the musical strata of the piano in a line by Peter Martin (or any great jazz pianist) where branching lines of flight lay before him, taking at his digression one or another: if this isn’t actual machines, actual rhizome-proliferation…I don’t know. Am I making any sense? I’m going to leave off here and go play.

I’ll leave you this video, perhaps it will illustrate what I mean.

youtube.com/watch?v=i-GTsDFFckI]
Hmm, that link did not show up before.
Let’s press it…


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Aleatory
    bowstring
    bowstring
    avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:53 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
This will take a little bit to explain, and probably a few sittings. Jazz, firstly, is a word whose density is that of a neutron star; what is defined as jazz is a topic heatedly debated since its coining circa the 20th’s teens and has lost no steam. I consider it an Afro-Cuban art in origin (its current multitudinous sub-genres are the offspring of Hispanic and Afro-American progenitors), but it’s practiced by every culture (save probably some aborigines) on the planet. I mean, the variety is simply nuts. For instance, you’ve got the classics like Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers, Armstrong, Calloway etc., who were just stepping out into the thing to come, still heavily preconceived but featuring the variation in solo. Now these cats didn’t disappear, but this field of art, this territory, evolved at breakneck speed, so you had these new free radicals popping up like, Mingus, Thelonious Monk, Ellington (he began with the earlier swing group and isn’t as daring as the rest of this group, but I felt obliged to include him). Then Coltrane began to stretch out, but Cecil Taylor said “not nearly enough,” Gillespie re-emerged with the Afro-Cuban movement while Miles Davis got fast, Buddy Rich screamed at his band (pushing the instrument rather than the music), Gets & Gilberto did Coltrane one further with the bossa nova, Jaco changed the bass then made a band (watch this too), Metheny got indescribable, Tortoise and Mercury Program said goodbye to rock, Europe had a break through and you begun to get bands like Jaga Jazzist. Elsewhere Screaming Headless Torsos made their own recipe, Hiromi met Corea, Fitzgerald said no to words, and pardon the abrupt ending, but I’ve already skipped over soooo much. All of this is interconnected, not a chain or hierarchy but a field of grassroots, chaotic, obfuscated. My list is horribly limited in scope, but I just wanted to illustrate the range this word “jazz” covers, and I’ve probably failed to do that even, so I’ll move along for now.

Who do I think is the most promethean? Cecil Taylor, by and far. Interestingly enough, though Wikipedia doesn’t mention a thing about it, you can find Taylor’s main influence in a few Debussy pieces: feux d’artifice, ce q’ua vu le vent d’ouest, le vent dans la plaine, les sons et les parfums tournent dans l’air du soir, la serenade interrompue, brouillards, la puerta del vino, etc. But I’m at my limit and must play now. I know Without-music plays piano (and guitar, if I’m not mistaken?), so perhaps he could fill some of the numerous gaps I’ve left?


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Aleatory
bowstring
bowstring
avatar

Posts : 50
Join date : 2011-11-15

PostSubject: Re: The Luciferian Wed May 30, 2012 7:33 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The Universal Mind of Bill Evans


Suis-je un homme, ou un omelette?

Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Man’s final solace. Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:39 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
From my latest writing project:


Above all else, man endeavors that he might at last know life, not that he might love it, and thereby abdicating that stolid post for his soul’s salvation, bore in futile solitude, he avers himself this garb of flesh in the name of neither pleasure or spite, and lives neither for the sake of happiness nor for the sake of conquering pain, for he recalls that suffering of old Job, which could be assuaged neither with the promise of heaven’s riches nor with anger, with neither hope, pity, or with the unseen movements of some inhuman justice, but only with awe. Indeed, it is the awe of life which is man’s final comfort, not pleasure, with its vague intuitions of the earth’s great bounty, nor even love, in its definite grasp, in its confidence and pious severity, nor does this last comfort lie in the mind, regardless of what the saints and philosophers might tell us- the mind, in all its vast epicycles and supernal brilliance, which is only the glint of that star which, upon the mirrored face of the sea into which it leads us, appears then so meager, and but a weary, dwindling beacon. The stillness of the uncreated, the womb of all that is yet to be and live, or truth eternal in its placidity, unmoved by the avarice of death and nature- that music of the spheres, which choirs with the wisdom of the dead and with the dreams of the forgotten, are perhaps the hopeful banners under which the unborn and the departed might bear their fate, but it is just that the living, who alone have the need of it, are alone provided the most perfect solace, namely awe, or wonder, as the Greeks so named it. Life is a dying flame, that needs must feed itself with the living earth.


A sik þau trûðu

Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 757
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: The principle of the new philosophy. Fri May 11, 2012 11:42 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
A heavy section from one of my books:

Take Sartre’s (A writer for whom I find in myself very little affinity or respect. The love of freedom for the sake of freedom is something that instinctually reviles me, no matter how spiritualized it may have become.) summary of modern philosophy, that existence precedes essence. Most of philosophy held the opposite, that essence comes before existence, ie. that the soul predates bodily incarnation. My philosophy has endeavored to posit them both at the same level of philosophical categorization and therefor to affirm them as equally positive expressions; existence and essence are two terms in which that excess which underlies their very conceptualization and which cannot be truly contained by either idea is articulated. Thus: existence and essence are both coterminous, and yet do not contain one another, for as philosophical categories they do not contain the excess out of which they were produced and which is reflected in their differentiation. I would give a final formulation of the principle as: “Essence is not adequate to existence; existence is not adequate to essence.” With this principle one can defend the freedom of the will despite also accepting the existence of a determined universe, because essence (the will’s freedom) and existence (the material universe) are equatable and non-containing of one another, by virtue of their constitutive excess. So let’s say I do want to defend the will’s freedom. The terms in the conceptual opposition are the freedom of the will and a causal universe, and we can simply propose that there is an excess inherent in both of these concepts which neither contains, and then we transfer this excess to a new series of conceptual oppositions. What would be the excess in the first series, freedom and material? It is the idea of transcendence. The will must transcend its limitations, for it is not an infinite will, nor omniscient, but it must do so through the material existence in which it is embodied as a passionate and creative organism. Thus we get an image of the old Greek concept of Eros- I doubt anyone experiences love these days as they did, as tragic love, as the soul’s fall into matter and suffering of flesh, that “voluptuousness of Hell.” This idea of transcending the material and sensuous then is the excess inherent in the concept of human freedom, and by transferring it to a new series of conceptual oppositions we can defend the idea of human freedom and at the same time accept the existence of a determined and causal universe, because we have effectively transferred the question of human freedom to an entirely new field of philosophical discourse than the one which was open to the criticism of material causality. Now the question of freedom takes form in the dialogue about the relationship between the ideal and real egos. Freedom is reconceptualized not so much as an exercise of one’s will or as a state of being uninhibited by material existence, but rather is it reconceptualized as a kind of experience. This transference of a concept to a new, higher field of discourse- that is, to me, the meaning of the Platonic aporia, and the silence into which every Socratic dialogue is resolved, a technique I believe I have rediscovered in light of my own philosophical method. The aporetic meditation exhausts the content of concepts in order to establish what remains of their meaning as the indication of that excess underlying their creation.

Heidegger rejected Sartre on the basis that a reversal of a metaphysical claim (which is what his philosophy amounts to) is nonetheless metaphysical, and this point is very true. Heidegger however locates the excess in the ontic sphere, as I have said before, and like Nietzsche he uses the strength of the ontic subject (Will for Nietzsche, Dasein for Heidegger) to break completely through the epistemic, that is, the metaphysical. That rendered Heidegger basically philosophically impotent in the remotest extreme of his thought, and all he can do there is silently point to the truth of being. Perhaps, as he says, it can be found in music or poetry. At any rate he abandons philosophy at the extremity of philosophy. I have rather located the excess within the epistemic sphere, elaborating it phenomenologically, that is, in the way in which it structures human consciousness, as well as philosophically, with the concept of the daemonic. I have retained all the strengths of dualistic thought, ontology, and metaphysics, as well as all the strengths of ontic, monistic thought while having inherited none of their weaknesses. In my philosophy there is a monism of the human subject as an excess underlying all consciousness, as well as a philosophical dualism because it is through conceptual oppositions that the excess is reflected in consciousness, and at every step of the way the dualism can be dissolved or the monism expanded dualistically: that is the strength of it. These conceptual oppositions represent not synthesized polarities on the part of a Hegelian self-consciousness as they do in Kierkegaard, as between the eternal and temporal, but rather an immanent division of the human consciousness in an effort to reflect itself daemonically in the mirror of philosophical ideas as that excess which cannot be resolved into any conceivable polarity expressed by them. Philosophy, then, is essentially the stimulation of the real ego, the synthesizing and creative self, the self that lives, desires, and dies, which is worn away in the struggle of eternity and time, love and desire, by the ideal ego; that self which disunites, polarizes, and reflects, and the difficulty of philosophy is the seeming inability to relate the two, it is the fact that no eternity is able to express the beauty and the languishing of time, nor is time, in its last bitter extremity, able to express the absolution of the eternal, for the human self intuits within both terms some substance after its own nature, and which belongs to a still higher order of things in which the meaning of time stands of itself, and the meaning of the eternal is untouched by the walks of time. The real ego experiences the fullness of its life and will only in fleeting moments throughout the course of its existence, and it is this ideal ego which is the heart into which it lays this fullness. Nietzsche comes beautifully close to my conception in the thought of the eternal recurrence, yet he fails to draw out the excess inherent in the conceptions of time and the eternal and, thereby unable to transfer it to a higher field of discourse, he only succeeds in equating the two concepts. His thought perhaps succeeds in inducing a stimulation of the real by the ideal ego, but does not satisfy the real demand of genuine morality.

While the artist wants to stamp the eternal with the image of time, to extend the sphere of the living and perishing consciousness so as to encompass all the breadth of creation, mainly by way of realizing harmonies within the order of nature, the philosopher wants to stamp time with the image of the eternal, to contract his consciousness to a single point, to the ego, so as to encompass it by thought, mainly by dissolving those harmonies and relations, by introducing contrariety and antithesis into the orders of nature and thereby unriddling the impassioned and bodily existence in which he feels himself condemned back into the mute regions of thought. In this way he is afforded objectivity, a view beyond himself and the narrow bound of his egoic consciousness, so that he might comprehend the idea behind phenomenal appearance. True morality, on the other hand, which has been only profaned by the mocking idols of merely human happiness and virtue, in comparison to whose ardor the truths of man are only velleity and convenience, wants neither to extend the border of the egoic consciousness or to contract it, but rather to contract the creation itself by realizing the principium individuationis, the essence of the will, by means of the will. Stimulated by the ideal ego through philosophy, by the thought of the eternal soul, the real ego aims to lay into it its fullness and life, and realizes a morality. All moral realities thereby inevitably create their own objects, as love creates beauty, hope creates happiness, and freedom creates justice. The moral problem is the problem of realizing in the image of the eternal the meaning of the struggle of time and mortality. When beheld with this hopeless and yet necessary question in one’s mind, all the virtues and the sins of man become equally insufferable and petty folly.

One would not ask of a dog that it should become more of a dog, nor would one rebuke a dog for being any less of a dog than it should be. All animals live in accord with their fundamental nature, while man rarely rises up to the stature of his own humanity, and the far extremity of his own destiny remains unknown to him. Man alone fails to be what he is. Yet, he still cannot stoop below himself. He cannot even abandon himself and feed on wild grass with the oxen. “I could not become a beast, let alone an insect,” cries Dostoyevskian man, and it is a quite genuine lamentation. Bereft of Gods and Men, the individual is consigned to eternal isolation; unable to find any real object outside of himself upon which to direct his most vital power, he would find no contentment even provided all the breadth of the creation, nor is he able to “read in the tongues of heaven the meaning of the earth,” to speak with Holderlin. The real moral question is precisely this, the question of the relation between the living ego and the ideal ego, between individual man and universal humanity; the question which plays about the impotent prose of Kant, the question which he could never answer. In Kant the attempt to relate transcendental and empirical apperception, to unite the original consciousness of man as a particular subject, as a being in possession of a soul, as a self, to the consciousness of this self enduring throughout time and its many changing experiences, constitutes the form which the question assumes, and in which it could not be answered. The primal commandment of philosophy, Know Thyself, assumes as its foundation the primal commandment of true morality, Be Thyself, and neither taken alone or taken individually does either precept allow us to gain any deeper understanding of ourselves. Alas, there is so much virtue in man! But so little insight. So much knowledge! But so little sanctity.

This question is given varied forms in all great philosophies. In Plato it is depicted in the relation between man’s finite bodily existence and eternal soul. With the concept of the daemonic this question, to my mind, finds at last its perfect expression and, ultimately, its resolution.


A sik þau trûðu

Nisus ait, “Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?”

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man’s furious passion become his god?

  • Virgil.

It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: The principle of the new philosophy. Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:19 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
The ontic subject or the “subject itself” simply means any particular “epistemic” structure whereby data, as stimulation of that structure, is translated by the particular logic of the structure itself, which is to say interpreted, into information; the structure takes account of that quality of the data which it is able to relate to itself, which is to say makes this data meaningful, and this meaning-giving act then renders the otherwise unintelligeble and useless subjective “excess” into manageable and usable objects. The venture of science is characterized by its narrow focus on these objects themselves, as in their objective quality, namely whatever is excessive about them as concerns the subjective structure for which the object is object; thus science, being born of philosophy, is a particular myopia of an otherwise broader philosophic reason that has become arrested at a certain stage of that reason, allowing it to perseverate and thus “gain some advantage” due to the limited range of its concern. The focus on object-qualities and measurements, after Aristotle, certainly has its advantages and is a particularly necessary component of philosophic method, contributing to the wider philosophic concern and interest. But it is this wider range of philosophy itself that concerns the entire process by which objects are object and may be said to come into existence at all; that particular epistemological body constitutive of the subjective meaning-giving power is the indirect focus of philosophy, whether this focus directs itself toward the periphery of this body, as metaphysics, toward the center of this body, as ontology, or toward the equivocating “middle ground” of this body, as phenomenology. An ethics can and does emerge from any of these methods, as either religion or science in the case of metaphysics and ontology or as something thus far without a name, a sort of amorphous ethical particularism that shuns broad categorical emphasis for a more narrow-minded multiplicity of differential planes of materialization, as with phenomenology. This latter ethics is the basis out of which a proper understanding of the excessive component itself, and eventually also an understanding of the daemonic structure of consciousness, must first come. We might then say that the phenomenological focus is the attempt of consciousness to self-value itself more directly and more all-encompassingly toward reducing the errors it engenders, toward greater precision and “controlled schizophrenization”. Certainly psychoanalysis is a method situated within this space and attempting a more nuanced articulation of daemonic process.

As this subject comes into existence through its own articulations of itself, our task, since we now grasp the basic “set up” involved, must be to provide a better method for subjective articulation, both for ourselves as well as for others. Identifying the excess within common conceptual oppositions is critical to transfer these oppositions and “common understanding” to a higher plane of discourse, where the old problems are seen in a new light, rendered unproblematic, and a whole new series of problems is allowed to arise in its place. This is really the raising up of self-consciousness, of the darmonic processes of self-engendering creation, and the sheer joy and awe involved in this alone makes it possible that this method, once initially grasped, will certainly bring philosophy “to the masses”, as they say. But it is only possible to grasp this joy once one has become capable of it, which is where the leap of faith is involved. We might attempt to communicate this leap of faith itself within the language of this daemonically constituted subject, since while the sort of leap of faith which Kierkegaard necessitates may, as you say, now be rejected we can reframe the leap as the step of moving from either subjectively-emphasized ontology, namely religion, or objectively-emphasized ontology, science, to a realm which is beyond either approaches and which includes both. The leap involves leaving behind the old antinomy of religion and science for real philosophy, and of moving beyond the superficial construction of man as either a dualistically or monistically constituted subject, in order to approach genuine morality, as you say. This would begin with a direct articulation of the nature of self-consciousness to itself as its own subjective potency, this potency now rendered and felt intelligebly by making visible, which is to say by making sensible the substrata upon which man’s current master-signifying terms, on either the individual psychological or group socological level, come into existence and by which as a consequence of this making sensible they may be regulated. Of course as a consequence of this this would also engender an entirely new order of relations among men and groups, a new politics.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy

Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Ethics of a Philosopher Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:09 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
During the first year of building on this site I have experienced a strong resistance, like sap would experience as it flows upward in the tree, to amount in the leaves and catch light. It is hard work to catch light. We must go through the dark, eat it, absorb it and resist it, to become what we are - only the purest nutrients, life-giving potencies will pass the ‘test’ - this tree, this resistance upward growing from the soil of mundane human causal madness, the insane circuitry without resolution that finds its only solace in weakness, in conformity to dissolution. So this is our ethics, as long as we are philosophers, in every instance of being a philosopher, it is to resist, to ascend and to cause growth around us.

The wild growth of the thinking ape, who blindly grows by virtue of his rampant excess capacity, is justified by a strange force of concentrated excess - excess so strong that it has a momentum, and therefore a causal influence to all that surrounds it. Itself a product of the blind cumulative surging of semantic cognition deficiently coupled with animal instincts, the philosophical focus commands this blind excess to follow it, to take shape around it, to take on its form. As God is created by man to be the creator of man, so the philosopher - is God.

These ethics seek the bitter, the hard, the unyielding - how else can it exert the force of life - how else can it cause change? A sea of pure flux holds no pleasure for the thinker, who is like a ram, a bull and an eagle at once. The military mind can understand in part the will of the philosopher, its resistance is the world that is. The philosopher is resisted by the world that its not yet - and in this resistance the hands of the future and the philosopher reach and grab hold - suddenly the tree is blossoming, all the senses are revived, the tree is fully known.

PostSubject: Value Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:38 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Watching a cat wake up to the chord of my phone charger and half asleep reach out to this irresistible value, I knew that my definition of value had been absent because I had not taken it to be movement, but thing-ness. “A value” is something that carries inherent momentum, that fits the momentum of the self-valuing (sustained (id)entity through time- ‘behavior’).
The value of the movement is in the movement itself, perhaps the value of hunting, of prey, is originally in the movement that it causes in the being, which is itself its behavior, its substance as an entity.

The difference beween the mineral world and the organic is this movement inherent - a rock of quartz is not an entity, it is a concentration of entities (particles) that value each other in their own terms, and cohere. Their valuing sustains an environment, not a development.

Trees exist ontologically between minerals and roving entities, it’s form is dependent on its physical origin, its ‘mother’ is still primary to its ontological definition - wow - sirens, a large fire somewhere close - the tree values the Earth literally as itself, as an animal values his movement as itself, and the root-ground as it’s past.

A tree is unconscious but awakes into futurality, “daylight”, the existence of a present, as divided by seasons from a past that figures as a future, and an eternal summer full of melancholy as the idea of time, drive away from the past and dive into the future, which now appars to be created in part by the organism, who changes, becomes, ‘acts’. The blossoming of a tree and it’s production of fruits is the root of acting-as-entity, ‘independence’.

What caused the separation of actor from its acting ground (root, mother) is Poseidons indifferent realm, Earths very own primordial soup where heat and electricity pervaded the waters and cosmic mechanisms took hold of the local ingredients and the element carbon became a vehicle for a self-valuing that drifted from accidental nourishment to the next, while speedily the electrical forces found new necessities and attracted through force and time the elements to sustain a greater charge and overpower all other charges.

Ultimately man is drawn to the pattern in which he sees his greatest ‘lockdown’, the consolidation of the greatest vision of what he is. Always, the opposite is the key to the completed self-valuing. Man with a mind for the world will make his image into something beyond a woman, though this will represent for him the female principle, and evokes the same fluids as those that ventured throughout and emerged from the primordial soup as entities that can only described as ‘courageous’. Courage certainly precedes consciousness.

So the conquerer is wise to speak to an Aristotle who can evoke an image of beyond the horizon, but unwise to take any mans word for what he wil find when he gets there. What he gets is implicit in his vitality only, it ultimately defies every physical root and becomes a ‘thing to itself’ only bound to the fleetingness of the unearthed state, thereby the freedom to forget the direct consequence of being, which results in the experience of the mind. As the fixation tilts to the future, values become properly externalized.

There is no way that man can not cause the immense trouble for himself that he does. Freud saw in America the mistake of roving life itself. His European Jewish root soul could not imagine the freedom from the past (atavisms, Id, the behaviorisms of the gene pool) to lead to anything but pure disaster.

Man always plunges himself into disaster because that is where is primal value is possible - the awakening to movement I saw in this cat who seems now fast asleep, the temptation to act.

Value: ‘fitting substance’ and ‘origin of action’.

We are all one, except we’re divided by the thing that makes us one. Morals and consequences depend on whether one has the proclivity to enjoy directly or to cause further enjoyment. Whether ones actions are oriented around the sudden emerging of opportunities or around the cultivation of environments rich with opportunity.


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides

Defenders of the Earth
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Death, and the Daemon Mon Oct 29, 2012 1:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Something I wrote during a larger conversation with Parodites:

Time is indeed entirely relative. An instant can also be a lifetime. You are right that there is no higher perspective or frame from which another greater value might assert itself against us, as our own measure of ourselves within the other – no, we are that measure, we are that other. Man measures himself, and the time of his life, quite limited as it is, assumes whatever magnitude and depth of potency and vitality as a man is able to make of it. Mozart was said to be able to compose whole works in his mind in the span of seconds, to see a musical piece from start to finish in totality in the mind alone, in a heartbeat. Of course genius does this, it expands time by contracting itself relative to the temporal field of its exertion, it introduces vast and derivative combinatory forms into the moments of its relations, into a single brief instant of time so that time itself flourishes under this gaze, becomes a thing grander, fuller, and more ‘eternal’. Perhaps the genius indeed lives out an eternity in his thoughts, in his “subjectivity”.

I do not fear dying. I used to, until I really gave name and form to these feelings, exposed them as signs of an instinctive confusion combined with powerful emotions of regret, guilt and sorrow. These emotions still remain but have been delineated, identified and thus no longer does their existence constitute that vague dread in the idea of death, this idea which is really only an object in which all these individual passions could find a common point of reference and expression. Fear of death is like belief in god, both of these ideas arise due to a lack of a more complete enumeration and differentiation of consciousness’ contents, and it is the confusion of these contents with each other that gives rise to these strange “common points of reference”, these abstractions such as the notion of god or death that serve as arbitrary objects for the mind where these clouded feelings may each feel each other and come together to form a single “pathos”. This pathos is then (mis)associated with the object in which it expresses, as is the nature of our consciousness, metonymic, as you say. But a more active consciousness instead separates and comprehends the individuality of these conscious states, forges more teleological and intention relations among them rather than relying on the merely ex post facto metonymy of a disordered and arbitrary mind.

That being said, of course I know that I will die. “I” meaning the body-brain from which my conscious experience and “subject” arise as the emergent behaviors of these. I see all conscious experience and ‘qualia’, including also basic sensation interpreted from the conscious perspective of meaning, as emergent behaviors, and I see even the physical non-conscious relations of the body or brain as emergent behaviors of what is lesser than they, chemicals, elemental bonds, etc., all subject to “natural law”, to the causal logic of the fields and domains in which they occur. In this way everything is a summative, emergent formality of whatever for it serves as a constitutive ground. Consciousness and non-consciousness are “flattened” here, brought to the same ontological level, but of course they still remain distinct sorts of entities even so. My point is just that I am aware of the fact that my conscious experience, however deep, grand, and expansive, however lengthy I perceive this experience or however elongated it happens to be ‘in fact’, it will ultimately at some future time vanish from existence. Plato’s Forms are representations of the nature of consciousness grapsing for itself, of what thought is as the “materialized psyche” of the ideas, those qualities of consciousness such as cognition, affectation, projection, and recollection, all of which are entirely as “physical” as is anything else, but of course which occupy a far different plane of dimensions and causality – far different and also far more contingent and derivative, I would say. But experience is still eternal to itself in so far as it can never encounter or live its ends, either in birth or death; consciousness can never recall its origin nor can it experience it final end since at one moment it is here and the next is has vanished completely, there is no “experiencing death”, for the limit of death is also the limit of possible experience. Consciousness can at least repose in the knowledge that from its own perspective its existence can never encounter any absolute boundary or terminus, and this is the whole point, really: consciousness is never satisfied, never at ‘rest’, the daemonic frenzy itself is conditioned by the fact of consciousness’ total incommunicability and lack of total limitation to itself. It comes into existence as the delineated being within the margins of birth and death, the ultimate horizon lines, and then becomes more and more distinct the greater amount of new inward limits are introduced into it, the more it identifies and the more it names, and then it becomes an more active and truly living thing the more all this limited being “daemonzies” itself.

Perhaps perpetual novelty is the only ‘ideal’ or principle by which the highly differenced and active daemon can hold itself indefinitely in existence and avoid the sort of “burnout” end which you forsee for it. This sort of powerful thought does engender its own novelty within itself, needs less from the world perhaps, but ultimately it must run its course and begin to “consume” its own nature more totally, more voraciously, and with greater and greater “vengeance” and self-destruction. In that regard this daemon would need a strong community of other daemonic natures of like philosophical character and power in order to be afforded a continuous re-energizing of itself, a re-vitalizing intake of new novelty appropriate to its superme need as well as new pathways for the discharge of its own excessive quality, which too must only grow as the daemon itself grows.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Abstract
Oracle
Oracle
avatar

Posts : 142
Join date : 2011-11-15
Age : 31
Location : The Moon

PostSubject: Re: Death, and the Daemon Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:41 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
I have often thought that if any amount of time can be a lifetime or simply a moment, as time is relative, then can we not say that relatively speaking my life time is infinite? I have even wondered if maybe time slows down as you die and maybe you end up experiencing eternity in your mind in some dream land…

sorry if i’m side stepping your thread…


“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.” -Socrates
“Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God.” -Cicero
“It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it.” -Aristotle
“I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law.” -Aristotle
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: Death, and the Daemon Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:22 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Perhaps structure is a means to death, to end, which is non-inherent in usual experience and startling when it happens.
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Fixed Cross
Doric basterd
Doric basterd
avatar

Posts : 6663
Join date : 2011-11-09
Location : the black ships

PostSubject: Re: Death, and the Daemon Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:57 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
PEZER!
You are back.

Man, wreak havoc or create delicate oil at the new forum.
I have invited all our friends here - not many, but their force is unmistakably life-altering -
and what is life if not life altering?
and now all we have there is a stagnant pool!

Fixed


" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "

  • Thucydides
    Back to top Go down
    View user profile Send private message Send e-mail Online
    Defenders of the Earth
    Tower
    Tower
    avatar

Posts : 5477
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Freedom

PostSubject: Re: Death, and the Daemon Sat May 18, 2013 5:05 am Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Abstract wrote:
I have often thought that if any amount of time can be a lifetime or simply a moment, as time is relative, then can we not say that relatively speaking my life time is infinite? I have even wondered if maybe time slows down as you die and maybe you end up experiencing eternity in your mind in some dream land…

sorry if i’m side stepping your thread…

Yes, There is a novel written around this very idea, Hardboiled Wonderland and the End of the World by Haruki Murakami. It’s a very cool idea, really, to create an eternity by endlessly dividing a finite quantity. In terms of the mind, this may require a sort of short-circuit, like setting two mirrors facing each other.


“Be clever, Ariadne! …
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? …
I am your labyrinth …”. -N

“Cause I’m just a man… flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
Back to top Go down
View user profile Send private message Send e-mail
Pezer
builder
builder
avatar

Posts : 2190
Join date : 2011-11-15
Location : deep caverns in caves

PostSubject: Re: Death, and the Daemon Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:26 pm Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post Delete this post View IP address of poster
Druggies are very consciously familiar with this effect of time relativity. It requires an antenna, a neurochemical affecting the level(s) of perception(s), which beat determine(s) the speed of time.

Perhaps that’s why they equate drug use with death wish. Hunter S. Thompson wrote about it, how one either pulls out in a cowardly bid for the future or dies in pure, true adventure. We surf death until we die… That’s a fair deal to live; our time is limited, with heavens only on earth.