Would Jesus condemn or condone Yahweh for his crimes against

Not to butt in but I cannot agree.

Jesus wanted to die. This is obvious from his bribe and show of love by passing a sop to Judas at the last supper and all the other disciples just sitting back and letting Judas go do as Jesus trusted him above the others to do. I think he was hoping that what would happen and did not, his resurrection, would happen.

The Jewish always expected a messiah and Jesus might have been delusional enough to give it a god and do what the tradition promised.

youtube.com/watch?v=UrDGgKunPsY

Regards
DL

Hey. I saw your avatar and say my hand scar, inherited through my Viking blood, pictured.

What came first? The natural scaring from the blood produce growth in the hand that is left after the operation or dide the Vikings tattoo the hand before the condition shows itself? The nickname for Dupuytren’s nickname is Viking hand.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren%27s_contracture

You probably have no idea but I thought I would see how Viking you are, brother.

Regards
DL

You’ve got your definition and I’ve got mine.

I don’t presume to know. A historical reading of the texts suggests that Jesus regarded himself as the messiah in the normal Jewish sense of the term. In other words he thought of himself as a human leader who would restore the Jewish monarchy, drive out the Roman occupiers, set up a Jewish state, and inaugurate an era of world peace, justice and prosperity. This is what it meant to be Messiah according to many Jews based on the prophecies of the Hebrew Bible.

Jesus was apparently not a militarist. He didn’t build up an army to fight the Romans since he believed that God would perform a great miracle to break the power of Rome. According to Zechariah 14:4 the miracle would take place on the Mount of Olives. That may be what Jesus was praying for In The Garden of Gethsemane. If God had initiated the “day of the Lord” on the Mount of Olives the cup of crucifixion may have indeed passed from him.

By the time of his prayer in the garden, Jesus had already drawn negative attention to himself from Jewish and Roman authorities by disrupting order in the temple and he may have sensed that the end was near. When God did not intervene his messianic dream failed.

After his death it was up to his followers to reimagine his mission. The New Testament record shows that Paul of Tarsus was instrumental in this project. According to tradition at least 10 of the 12 apostles were martyred. Some say Matthew was not martyred others say he was stabbed to death in Ethiopia. Only John is generally thought to have died a natural death from old age. But the documentation on this is questionable. Only the deaths of Judas and James the son of Zebedee are recounted in New Testament texts.

The historical basis for the last supper story is questionable. The preponderance of the evidence I’ve seen suggests that Jews in the first century were not expecting a crucified messiah. If Jesus had expected to become the messiah/king/savior of an earthly Israel, Jesus’ followers would have needed to reimagine Jesus’ mission in order for the movement to continue when his expectation failed. The video you linked is interesting. However, as the video’s narrator notes and is further documented here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel%27s_Revelation the meaning and provenance of the writing on the stone is inconclusive.

I don’t know anything about Islam and far too much about Christianity.

Before we get too carried away nuancing every bump n wiggle throughout the life of Jesus, have we established that he even existed?

Don’t watch this video from 5:00 to 30:00 if you want to preserve your faith.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTbIu8Zeqp0[/youtube]

“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.” Thomas Paine.

What blows my mind is how someone living in the 1700’s could know that.

I know too much about both. Have a chuckle on me.

youtube.com/watch?v=KYV7KWQ-fY4

Regards
DL

Yeah I love that video :slight_smile:

If Jesus was a myth, then discussing whether he would have condemned or condone Yahweh is absurd. I think it’s more likely that Jesus of Nazareth was a real person whose story was mythologized by the church after he died.

Hello Felix

I agree, but, the experiences of Marcion differ greatly from the common jew I was talking about. He inherited Christianity much more than judaism. He is the product of the Gospel of John than the Gospel of Mark. For him, in my opinion, religion was not a way of life because it was still for him an object of study and subject, in need of correction.
Ortega y Gasset described the distinction as “Creer y Pensar”. Think about “creed” as unconscious beliefs that are necessary for our current life to flow. Through them we arrive at “pensar”, thoughts about belief that have been abstracted into ideas, facsimiles though they be of those unreflective beliefs. So, I hold the opinion, that there were many God fearers who could be the potential converts of early Christianity, though many of them saw Christianity as one in a forrest of other possible alternatives, other mystery religions still available. Christianity at that point had not yet coalesced and the reason perhaps was that the religion was often much more an object of thought than of that sort of belief that exist from ingrained tradition.

Sacred History is the answer. The idea of a Messiah, of a restitution to glory, goes back perhaps as far as the Babylonian captivity period. The idea is that human beings were the ones who earned God’s wrath. The future was always in their hands to affect, to repent and return to his good graces. The kingdom of god Jesus was preaching about held this idea at heart. Through the virtuous life of one, the community would be saved. Jesus’ last gasp in Mark reflects that he expected something to happen that didn’t happen. The world around him, as bad as it was, was animated by that “creencia”, that underlying and unquestioned belief that what we do still could change it all in a flash.
You are right about the original role of Satan. A lot of its evolution resulted from Persian influences it received from Zoroastrianism. The world however was not that much worse overall. Yahweh’s followers doggedly held to a principled monotheism which is why Yahweh was as terrible. It was not a fault to be corrected but a feature of their belief. I believe that even the super-Satan of Christianity was not su much a feature of judaism but an exceptional belief that flourished in the polytheistic garden in which Christianity grew.

I disagree about a unified response. There were many, evident in the controversy recorded in Galatians. Once the center in Jerusalem was lost, Christianities flourished in the resulting diaspora.

I wasn’t implying that there was a unified response. Modern archaeological work has recovered a number of texts that reveal religious diversity in the early years that has provided the basis for revising the traditional view of a unified response as presented in the Book of Acts.

The emerging picture of early Jesus movement is of one awash with contending beliefs. The competing “Christianities” each insisted that they upheld the true teachings of Jesus and that they possessed writings of apostles that supported their claims.

But, history gets written by the winners. In this case it was the so-called “proto-orthodox Christians”–those who eventually compiled the canonical books of the New Testament and standardized what became orthodoxy i.e. “The Christian Faith” codified in the official church creeds.

The scriptural basis for The Faith began with the theology of Paul who transmogrified the Jesus of history into the Christ of Faith. The other “Christianities” were the groups that the emerging orthodoxy denounced as heretics and persecuted accordingly.

Too true for comfort.

Regards
DL

This question, be you a believer or not, is designed to have the reader show his moral position.

Not mythologized, literalized, stupidly, as he began as a myth.

youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia … =PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

I think we can discuss whether fictional characters would have done this or that. What would Frasier Crane say about it? That’s why I said “the jesus character is the opposite of the father character while the holy spirit character is rarely, if ever, personified.” Whether they are real or not is inconsequential to whether they are the same personality.

Maybe so, but it would be awfully coincidental that so many others were: born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, died on a cross, resurrected 3 days later. There also isn’t much historical evidence supporting the existence of Jesus.

But whoever created the words of Jesus was pretty smart and whoever distorted them, wasn’t.

This one is hilariously funny. Uploaded 2010, I don’t know why it took so long for me to find it.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk[/youtube]

There were Pagan gods who were said to die and rise again. So, I get the idea that Jesus was made up as a Jewish god who died and rose again. The problem is that we have these ancient letters written in the first century by this guy Paul who mentions in passing that he knew Jesus’ brother, James, and he knew his closest disciple, Peter and he talks about things they did. If Jesus didn’t exist, you would think his brother would know about it, so I think Paul is probably pretty good evidence that Jesus at least existed.

Another reason for supposing Jesus existed is that if someone invented Jesus, they would not have created a messiah who was so easily overcome. The Messiah was supposed to overthrow the enemies of Israel. So if you’re going to make up a messiah, you’d make up a powerful messiah. You wouldn’t make up somebody who was humiliated, tortured and the killed by the enemies.

But, the mythicists are right that the NT Gospels do portray Jesus in ways that are non-historical. The historical Jesus was mythologized. In the gospel texts there is evidence of editing. But, embarrassing facts remain that run counter to the mythic narrative that wouldn’t be there if Jesus were invented whole cloth. And those facts are further evidence that he really existed.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criterion … arrassment

And oh yeah it is possible to discuss what fictional characters might do in different hypothetical situations. So we could talk about Jesus that way. But, there are so many versions of Jesus that it gets complicated right off. For example, based on their interpretation of the Bible some Christians think Jesus was Yahweh so the question whether he would condemn or condone Yahweh would be about whether he would condemn or condone himself. In the Hebrew Bible it does say that Yahweh repented of his actions from time to time. But, that’s absurd if one assumes that God is omniscient. So, it all seems to depend on what is presupposed. Garbage in, garbage out, so to speak.

I like how you decide for God what he can do and feel, Felix.
He needs you.

Glad I could help.

I think the ancient wrote the bible and intentionally put contradictions is as the bible was created to activate thinking and not to be taken literally. Those contradictions were designed to be debated, not believed as real.

Most have forgotten that and ignore the brighter ancient ways.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.

pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, “The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it.”

Please listen as to what is said about literal reading.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, “God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning.”

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Regards
DL