There's no such thing as Transexuals

Saying “I can defeat a bear with my bare hands” - easy

Actually doing it - a bit harder

No, you are mistaken, I am causasian through and through. :astonished: :laughing:

It’s fun to burst your dangerous, clownish bubble of balloons…
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/22/europe-birthplace-mankind-not-africa-scientists-find/

:sunglasses: :evilfun:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/controversial-study-claims-apes-and-human-ancestors-split-southern-europe-180963426/

:-"

Carleas, doesn’t really think consequences matter particularly the consequences for lying matter, so he seems satisfied that trans people are beaten up and murdered and that is nobodies business but their own and the people whom they deceive who jack them up. The people who are fauxsexual victims should not be held liable for their knee jerk, emotional disgust and subsequent violent behavior. Fauxsexuals deserve the consequences for their lies, hoodwinking others when they are emotionally and physically vulnerable. Reality doesn’t care if Carleas understands my point or accepts it as valid, assault, battery, and murder will continue to happen when fauxsexuals take pretend too far.

When a man goes to bed with a woman he is not anticipating her telling him the morning after that like him she used to be a man as well
On this issue there should be no ambiguity whatsoever as she should reveal her status before she has sex every time with a different man

Biology is not salient in bathrooms?

As Wendy has helpfully pointed out, they frequently do. Do you concede that they should be considered X?

Surely you accept that there are things that are true by dint of a sincere belief that they are true, e.g. I am a Christian if and only if I sincerely believe that I’m a Christian. I don’t think our disagreement is about whether such things exist, just about whether the social dimension of sex identity is one of those things. We also agree, it seems, that property ownership is not one of those things. But I don’t see how property ownership connects to sex. Is your sex something you own, like a website? I can sell this site, are you saying that I can be a woman if I buy womanness? I can turn this site off, can I turn off my sex identity?

Interesting, I hadn’t seen this. Still, I don’t think it makes the point you want it to make. For one thing, there is still substantial debate about this among paleontologists. And popular reports are not likely to get the science right, e.g. the authors note that, “The media coverage to which Benoit and Thackeray refer in their comment concerning the hypothesis of a European origin of hominins – when in fact we propose an Eastern Mediterranean (which also includes Africa) origin – is a perfect example” (emphasis added). I’d say your use follows this politicized approach, since wherever the split from chimps occurred, only one line of human ancestors resulted. The fact remains that you and every black person share the same set of ancestors back beyond some finite number of generations.

You, every black person, and Rachel Dolezal.

You’re just repeating yourself. What makes it different from being raised Catholic, or Democrat, or having been a slut in high school, or majoring in art history, or having eaten pork earlier in the day? There are plenty of things in a person’s history that some other person will see as a deal breaker – and plenty that could drive a person so disposed to violence after the fact. I’m sure the population for whom being trans is that kind of thing is relatively large, but I don’t think it’s about anything inherent in being trans.

In almost every physical sport (and certainly in the ones we’re talking about where transwomen can actually pose a danger), physical contact between the participants happens in every minute of every match.

In my three decades of using public restrooms, I can’t remember experiencing or witnessing any physical contact between the people in the restroom that wasn’t a parent or other caregiver helping a young child.

That’s the sense in which biology is not salient in bathrooms.

@Carleas

I’m glad you brought this up.
I’m not sure it’s possible a person with a woman’s body could have a wholly male brain/mind, but let’s assume it is for the sake of argument.

Let’s say I’m throwing a dinner party.
I’m inviting three coworkers, two of them are men, one of them is a ‘transman’.
She was born Jill, but legally changed her name to ‘Jack’.
In her adolescence, neurologists examined her brain, and to the best of their ability, determined it to be 98.8% male (now neurologists may never discover most of the ways male brains differ from females, nor an objective way of determining which difference is more significant, but again, let’s say they have for the sake of argument).
Altho her brain is almost completely male, and she identifies as a man, she chose not to have sex reassignment surgery or take steroids, for health reasons.

Throughout the night, I offer more alcoholic beverages to my two male coworkers than to Jack, not because I’m transphobic, but because physically she’s a woman, she’s shorter, has a slighter frame and weighs less.
I also serve her a smaller portion of food for the same reason.

We sit down at the dinner table, and I notice it’s hard to hear Jack’s voice over my two male coworkers and me, so we have to deliberately lower our voices so she can get a word in.
I also notice while it’s short length, she has a full head of hair at 40, and probably will for the rest of her life, whereas my two male coworkers are balding.
I too still have my hair, and my two male coworkers are both envious of her and I.

I notice Jack has an interest in many typically male subjects, like politics and computer science, but has little interest in sports.
I ask her if she plays or ever played sports in her youth.
She tells me she tried to get into sports, but couldn’t, because she couldn’t keep up with the boys, and she refused to play with girls because she didn’t identify as one, so she got more into computers and video games instead.

After dinner, Jack tells me she’s spotted a book on my bookshelf she’d like to read, too high for her to reach, so I grab it for her.
After I finish taking a piss, I put the seat down, thinking she may have to use the toilet at some point.

It’s getting late, and everyone needs to head home, we’re all too drunk to drive, my two male coworkers stagger home in one direction, and Jack needs to get home safe in the opposite direction.
I offer to call her a cab, she declines, I offer to walk her home, she accepts.

On the way home, I notice she appears a little colder than I, so I offer her my coat, she accepts.
I think about her personality, and while she’s definitely more masculine than most women, she’s still not quite as masculine as most men, and I wonder how much just having a female body has affected her perception of herself.

We arrive at her place, and Jack tells me to come up and stay with her for a bit.
She tells me to find something on TV while she gets more comfy.
As I’m channel surfing, she exits her bedroom, and I’m surprised to see she’s swapped the t-shirt and jeans she was wearing for a sexy dress.
I ask her, what’re you doing, and she replies, I like to dress up as the opposite sex every once in a while, for the lols.
She asks me what I think, and I tell her she looks good, really good.
While I thought she was cute, I didn’t realize how feminine and sexy she was until she lost the t-shirt and jeans.
She sits on the couch beside me to watch TV, and I can’t stop thinking about how good she looks in that dress.
It takes every fiber of my being not to make a move on her.
You see Jack told me she identifies as heterosexual, which for her means she’s only attracted to women.
But before I know it, she’s all over me, and I end up spending the night.

In the morning I wake up hungover, a little baffled by the sudden turn of events.
I ask her, I thought you were only attracted to women, and she tells me she is, but occasionally likes to sleep with men when she’s hammered, because it beats a strap on.
Plus she said I was really kind to her, and she finds kindness sexy irrespective of sex/gender.
I remembered we didn’t use protection, and she told me not to worry, she’s going to buy emergency contraception.
She apologized, and said she had no idea we were going to sleep together before coming over to my place.
I left her apartment and spent the next few days worrying about whether she took emergency contraception or not.

A few days later I saw Jack at work, talked to her about things, and was delighted to learn she’s started her period.
She was moody that day, and I tried not to step on her toes.

So why do I tell you this story?
The point is, social situations aren’t just mental and emotional, they’re physical too.
A persons body isn’t just relevant at the doctors office, it’s more or less always relevant.
And a persons body is in large part determined by their chromosomes (XX or XY) and genitals.
Whether they like or not, realize it or not, a persons physical sex is part of their social identity.
even if she has a wholly male brain/mind, my relationship with ‘Jack’ is never going to be the same as it is with a real man.

So this hypothetical transman would have the body of a woman and the brain/mind of a man, both of them with roughly equal social significance.
So does that make her 50/50, half male, half female?

The thing about the brain is it’s less massive than the body, so in an objective sense, we’re more our bodies than our brains.
The brain is just one organ in the body, one of many.
And so sex is mostly physical, not neurological/psychological.

And the thing about the body in general and organs in particular is males have, nearly everything females do, for example both males and females have hips and shoulders, but males have proportionally broader shoulders, and females wider hips.
Males have brains, hearts and lungs, and so do females, they’re just sized and structured a little differently, but males don’t have XX chromosomes and female sex organs, which’s why chromosomes and sex organs are referred to as primary sex characteristics, as opposed to secondary.
So they’re more significant in determining sex than the brain/mind, just as the body as a whole is more significant in determining sex than the brain/mind.

And these primary sex characteristics aren’t trivial.
Without chromosomes, not a single cell in our body could exist, and chromosomes largely determine the sex of every cell in your body, as well as explaining many-most differences between individuals.
As we’ve seen, genitals are not trivial, or asocial, they’re highly relevant and social.

This means a hypothetical transman like ‘Jack’ with a fully male brain is still fundamentally or mostly female, and real transwomen, with androgynous brains, are definitely fundamentally or mostly female, so it makes more sense to call, think of and treat them as predominantly female.

Um. In what sense IS its salient?

This story…reads like one-handed typing. I don’t see the relevance of explicitly assuming that the “trans” person in the story isn’t actually trans, but play acting. As I am using the word trans, the woman in this story would not qualify; “liking to dress up as the opposite sex every once in a while, for the lols” is not the same as a sincere belief that one was born in a body that doesn’t reflect their subjective sex.

As for the other non-conforming physical examples (low appetite and tolerance for alcohol, small stature, soft-spokenness), there are a ton of cis men who meet all those criteria.

Yes, but again, most of our body things just aren’t relevant. You don’t suspect the short men you know of actually being women, so even those ludicrous indicia of body misalignment are not really gendered in the way you assume them to be in your story.

Pooping is biological. But it’s not relevant in this discussion, because pooping in a modern unisex bathroom is not a social activity.

Height does play an important role in how we perceive individuals. Women standing at 5’8" or taller would have an easier time having their height align with the average males height (5’10") therefore allowing them to pretend to be male with greater ease than say if they were was 5’2". If a short man (5’4" as in the story I mentioned above) decked himself out as a woman, it would be more likely that he would be perceived as a woman due to his short stature than a 6’0 man who decked himself out in the same manner to imitate a woman. Petite men just have an easier time lying to the masses about the nature of their gender if they so choose.
http://www.wecare4eyes.com/averageemployeeheights.htm
In the chart, Philippine males are on average the height (5’4") of many woman (world wide average 5’6") which can lend itself to a male physique being mistaken for a female physique due to similar statures in regards to the worldwide average of a female’s height. Fausexuals without their costuming and hormones are very rarely mistaken for their coveted gender. Typical fauxwomen and fauxmen are never mistaken for their coveted gender no matter what they do to conceal their true nature, people in general feel that there is things are amiss about them, off, not right. Their voice is wrong, height is wrong, musculature is wrong, facial attributes are wrong, etc.

So is ok if I walk into a ladie’s bathroom? What would be the problem?

@Carleas

You just don’t get it…moving on.

Periods, menopause, real vaginas and wombs can’t be found in men, and they have social consequences.

It’s not just smaller stature, women’s bodies make them different and generally more vulnerable in all sorts of ways, that have social implications, and they also make them more or less attractive to people with different sexual orientations.

And the same thing could be said of psychosexual traits, that even tho they’re more prevalent in one sex than another, they can be found in both sexes, so why do trans feel the need to sexualize them?
And if their perception of their psychosexuality is not based on what psychosexual traits they believe they possess, than it’s not actually based on anything, and so referring to themselves as psychosexually male or female makes about as much sense as referring to myself as psychologically pineapple or octagon.

If I’m Jack the fauxman’s boss, and I tell her to go meet some people at x, and I tell these people who’ve never met Jack to meet Jack at x, on the basis of her masculine name they’ll be looking for a male, and there’ll be more confusion than there’d be if Jack had a feminine name, like Jill.

In sexual situations or sports like MMA, a persons personality is less and their physique more relevant, so why do faxumen and fauxwomen still insist on being referred to as their coveted sex in these situations?

I’m not defending the idea of gendered bathrooms, so I want to plant a flag there.

But where bathrooms are gendered, the difference between a man who presents as a man and identifies as a man going into a women’s room, and a biological man who presents as a woman and identifies as a woman going into a women’s room, is that in the former case, the person is openly transgressing the social norm and it’s reasonable to worry that they will transgress other norms of bathroom etiquette. It’s the difference between someone going into the bathroom thinking “this bathroom is for me and people like me”, and someone going into the bathroom thinking, “this bathroom explicitly excludes me and I’m going in anyway.”

Communication is a two way street. Help me understand. Your story does not contain a trans character. What am I missing.

I don’t know the period, menopause, vagina, or womb situation of almost any woman I interact with. In almost all social situations, none of that matters.

Aren’t you sexualizing them?

I agree that transsexuality raises interesting questions about gender more broadly. Recognizing transsexuals seems to undermine blank-slate philosophies of the social equality of the sexes. A transwoman asking to be treated as a woman implicitly demands that women be treated differently.

If anything, the difference in confusion will be marginal. A transman who presents as male is generally well within the distribution of male traits.

As I’ve acknowledged, this is a real but distinct problem. I expect that transsexuals don’t think of themselves as having one sex in social contexts and a different sex in others, but as having one coherent sexual identity that they expect to carry with them into any context they enter. I think that’s something of a conceptual failure, but an understanding given the way our culture conceptualizes sex and gender, and the limits of how our language constrains expression of those concepts.

For the purpose of this discussion, let’s stipulate that s-sex means social sex, and b-sex means biological sex. With that distinction, it’s seems trivially easy to understand how someone could be s-female and b-male, and that there would be no tension in doing so. Then we could discuss whether s-sex or b-sex is more important in a given context. In a doctor’s office, b-sex is likely to dominate. In a business setting, s-sex would dominate (to the extent even that is relevant). For gift-giving, s-sex. For MMA? B-sex seems more important. For mental competitions, like chess or math olympics, maybe s-sex is dominant.

The point being, there are multiple distinct and distinguishable concepts tied up in sex that don’t have a necessary relationship with one another, and one or the other may be more salient in a given situation. There’s no tension or deception in understanding the world that way, and in many contexts our predictions about behavior, i.e. the “effectiveness” of our beliefs, will be better when we treat them separately.

You don’t think girls should have their own bathroom?

God help you son. Nobody else can.

I do not wish to ignore reality, Carleas. A male body means male. Whether they think this or that is not really my problem and they can be left to their own devises as long as they do not infringe on the nature of reality. If fauxsexuals wish to be socially delusional, have at it, but don’t expect me or the rest of a sane society to participate in your delusions willingly or unknowingly because honesty escapes you.

I’m not strongly committed to it, no. Co-ed bathrooms exist and don’t seem to pose any problems in practice. The separation seems to be a holdover from a time when men and women were more segregated generally, and cultures more prudish about the human body than ours is (or should be). Segregated bathrooms aren’t a human universal in all cultures and at all times. No part of human freedom or well-being requires gender segregated pooping areas.

I’m so glad. And since we’ve seen in this threat that the reality is that some men have bodies, brains, and behavior that place them closer to women on the distribution of traits, and we know that the reality is that we don’t have access to information about a lot of traits, our reality-based conclusion should be that we often can’t do better than letting people tell us themselves which cluster of traits is best for modeling them as social beings.

Prudish means asexual. To ignore the sexuality of a naked or half naked body or a girl when she’s retouching her make-up, the vulnerability of that moment, that’s prudish.

If a girl walks in and I’m using a urinal and she doesn’t think about my dick, that’s prudish.

Maybe you are for the sexualization of bathrooms? Maybe no means yes, maybe girls want no privacy ever, to constantly be exposed to the sexuality of men.

Heck, come to think of it, I myself would like to go to the bathroom and not be seen by a girl.

Imagine I go on a date and the girl gets up to go to the bathroom. Suddenly the tea or whatever gets to me and I urgently have to take a piss. I go to the bathroom and hear her farting and such.

Maybe I’m an advanced guy, maybe it doesn’t bother me. Do you not think it bothers her? That I heard her taking an explosive shit?

These are trivialities. Say I’m a girl and I walk into the bathroom to cry a little, I’m overwhelmed. I expect the comforting company of my fellow womenfolk. A guy who acts like a girl is there, trying to fit into the situation.

It’s just all kinds of fucked up, Carleas. What if a guy who is a creep, of which there are many, walks in as your daughter wlalks in. Maybe shoots her a glance. Normally she could just ignore him, walk away. But a bathroom is a pretty vulnerable place. This wouldn’t bother you?

Wake up man. For the sake of your women. Lying to yourself is not more important than the integrity of little girls.

Maybe you’re at a work meeting, and you and your same-sex employer both go to the bathroom and, whoops, you’ve got the shits! How embarrassing! Maybe you and your friends are out on the town and two of you use the bathroom at the same time, but you’re camera shy at the urinal. Oh noes!

There are cultures where nudity is not always sexualized. There are cultures where defecation isn’t considered a sexual act. There are cultures that already have coed bathrooms and it’s fine.

Bad things can happen in the bathroom, sure. And if I could flip a switch and change all gendered bathrooms to coed bathrooms I wouldn’t. But I also don’t have a problem with a cultural trend that leads to coed bathrooms, that isn’t in and of itself a bad thing given the right cultural environment (and such cultural environments are extant). Moreover, I don’t think coed bathrooms should be designed in the same way that single-sex bathrooms are. In the same way that we’ve moved away from group showers in single-sex locker rooms, coed bathrooms are likely not to include urinals next to the sink. The coed bathrooms I’ve used had toilet stalls with real walls and doors opening into a common sink area, and they weren’t a problem and it didn’t feel weird to pass women on the way in or wash my hands next to them on the way out.

But this is all besides the point. In a world with single sex bathrooms, we need to figure out what to do with people who present as a member of a given sex until they take off their pants or are subjected to a genetic screen. A transman in a women’s bathroom is going to make people just as uncomfortable as a cis man would. Those people should use the bathroom that makes them comfortable, because it’s very likely to be the bathroom that minimizes discomfort for everyone else.