There's no such thing as Transexuals

Conservatives are more tolerant and rational than liberals.

When transgender women go to straight, hetro clubs to pretend that they are really women, some transwomen are petite with fairly feminine features who fool most when they are glammed up, but at no time during their flirting do they confess that they are transwomen. The very fact that they are in a straight club is to fool the straight men into thinking they are legitimately females inside and out which is as Gloominary said to feel more like what they covet which is womanhood. I haven’t heard anything recently in the news about transwomen getting beaten up or killed (tried to google it but not one article surfaced), but it happened quite a bit in the '80s and '90s. Trans people play a very dangerous game when they are not honest from the get-go.

These days you’re probably right.

I’m certainly in no place to tell her otherwise.

I’ve got one for you: how many generations back before you get to your first black ancestor?

Ok, so take all such traits a biological man can have, and imagine an outlier who has all of them to an extreme degree, such that the only traits that aren’t feminine are 1) chromosomes, and 2) genital shape. In a social situation that doesn’t involve chromosomes or genitals, why shouldn’t that person be treated as a woman? By hypothesis, everything that matters about gender in that context is feminine. Social expectations and intuitions around that interaction will be more accurate if the mental model we use there is “woman” rather than “man”.

Let’s ignore for the time being that by your own admission you’re unable to actually find an example of what you’re describing, and just assume that it happens. What is the syllogism you’re plugging this into? Sometimes transwomen who go to bars and pick up men get assaulted, therefor…? I don’t see what part of your position follows from that claim (which, not for nothing, you have admitted to being unable to substantiate).

Are fears ever unjustifiable? otherwise what purpose would they be, and why would we even possess them in the first place?

…a pattern of criminal activity is obviously a pattern not to be ignored, no? and such predatory patterns have to be accounted for in amendments to laws, in order to safeguard the security of females in public places and spaces, in the same way that transsexual and vulnerable males have to be safeguarded within the prison system.

Fears are frequently unjustified (not sure that’s the same as unjustifiable). See, for example, the fear of balloons.

In this case, they’re unjustified because they’re based on the belief that there is a pattern of criminal activity which we don’t have any evidence of. If there were a pattern of criminal activity, and if the law proposed were effective at curtailing that criminal behavior without causing more harm than it prevents, then such a law is appropriate. But (1) there is no such pattern of criminal behavior, there’s only unjustified fear, and (2) in the absence of a harm to be prevented, any law is likely to cause much more harm than it prevents.

We do know that males who identify themselves as females enter female sports leagues, causing great damage, often physical, often of morale.

It is not unreasonable to think they might apply this abuse in less visible circumstances. Or do you think it is?

I think the philosophical question is: can gender really be transited from and into? Are these males who identify as females successful in becoming female? To what extent?

And, as the debate has turned in this direction, what laws should therefore apply?

https://reason.com/blog/2017/10/20/a-transgender-woman-assaulted-a-child-in

http://www.bdtonline.com/news/transgender-sex-offender-jailed/article_db329672-bb85-11e7-a272-b7754882a456.html

Unjustified…pfft.

http://dailycaller.com/2017/01/06/transgender-calls-filming-girl-in-target-dressing-room-a-mistake/

https://www.fpiw.org/blog/2016/02/25/convicted-sex-offender-seeks-access-to-womens-locker-rooms-through-bathroom-law/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/12183349/Girl-15-raped-by-transgender-woman.html

So unjustified…pfft.

There’s more but I’m over listing the offences.

Women are justified.

I think sports are a harder case, because there biology is much more salient. It touches on debates about gene doping and steroids, which are ongoing and controversial in themselves.

But I don’t think the fact that a transwoman can be dangerous in an MMA match says too much about how dangerous they are in other circumstances. In sports, transwomen who play entirely by the rules can be dangerous in the same way that an adult who plays a child’s sport entirely by the rules can be dangerous.

If the level of danger someone poses in non-sports contexts is highly dependent on how strong we think that person is, then a transwoman would pose a danger. But that doesn’t seem to be the case; much more important is how readily someone will ‘break the rules’, and that doesn’t seem to be any greater for male-to-female transsexuals (greater than women, slightly lower than men).

I agree with your assessment of the philosophical questions, but I think a major one posed by the existence of transsexuals is what gender and sex really are. We see here that Gloominary and Wendy want to use a definition that’s basically limited to genetics, and I’m arguing for a definition that divides genetic gender/sex from social gender/sex.

Why are we even talking about transsexuals when we have so much reason to be afraid of clowns!!!..

A half dozen one-off incidents tell us almost nothing about how justified our fear is. That’s particularly where the stories are driven by the fear.

You don’t think that the same differences in psychology and phisiology between women and men who identify themselves as women that are relevant in a sports arena, where women are at their peak of attention and training, are relevant in a place where they are as vulnerable as they are in a bathroom?

You cannot substantiate with scientific certitude that trans women are not 100% biologically male which includes physiologically and psychologically. It’s more than chromosomes and genital shape that aren’t female. The genitals themselves aren’t female nevermind their shape. Trans women also lack the female reproductive organs associated with female genitalia and reproductive function of female genitalia.

They knowingly deceive to feel more like women, that does happen. They do get beat up and sometimes murdered for their deception.

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/no-dont-have-to-tell-you-im-trans-before-dating-you

Evidence of my point. :astonished:

https://nypost.com/2017/07/24/man-sentenced-for-stabbing-date-119-times-after-learning-shes-trans/

More evidence. :astonished:

They should be termed crimes of passion since there is a great emotional intensity to having been deceived about the gender of a sexual partner. Those people who assault or kill someone after they’ve been lied to on such an important issue, should get leniency or get off on the charges under the temporary insanity plea.

Trans status should always be disclosed to any potential sexual partner otherwise they are having sex by deception
Consent given under a false assumption is not actually consent and so could therefore be classed as statutory rape

Those examples Wendy quoted above highlight just how dangerous non disclosure for trans people is
The time to say something is before sex takes place not after it when consent can not be withdrawn

I identify as the top authority of this forum. Carleas, ban all other mods and makes me the mod of all forums.

I don’t, because what makes it an issue in sports isn’t an issue in bathrooms. As I said above, biology is quite salient in the sports arena, because sports are designed as physical competition that require participants to push their bodies to the limits. To see the difference, consider performance enhancing drugs, which are an issue in sports but not an issue in bathroom use. No one things we should be testing for performance enhancing drugs before people use a particular bathroom or have separate juicer bathrooms, because the ways in which performance enhancing drugs affect sports aren’t salient in bathrooms. That’s essentially the same thing that’s happening with transwomen in women’s sports: there’s a credible claim that their participation undermines the leveling intention of having sex-specific sports. But that isn’t an issue in bathroom usage.

All humans lines, all of us, originate in Africa. Even non-sapiens humans evolved in Africa and migrated out, and modern humans definitely evolved in Africa and migrated out. You may not have looked back far enough, but all your ancestors ultimately descend from black people in Africa.

You’re black, Wendy.

I think this claim is likely to be question-begging. Your definition of psychologically male is based on the psychology of people who have XY chromosomes. So even if someone’s brain and behavior strongly correlate with people with XX chromosomes, I’d expect you to say that their brain and behavior are male by definition. By such definition, where every person with XY chromosomes is male, and the sex of all traits of a person are judged by that person’s chromosomes, your claim is true by definition, it’s just a tautology. But that’s just begging the question.

If instead we look at the distribution of behavior and brain structure across people with different sets of chromosomes, I would expect to see two clusters roughly corresponding to social sex, and I would also expect to see significant overlap between the clusters, and people with different sets of chromosomes represented in both clusters. And that’s what we see.

Still waiting for you to clarify how you think this supports your position.

I think this is a case-by-case issue. In some places, political affiliations or religions or beliefs about vaccines might be seen as super important, and in other places not so much. Probably at very liberal colleges, trans status is seen as less significant than Republican status.

And consent is kind of always given under false assumptions, it matters a lot what those assumptions are. If the assumptions are “the guy in the mask is my boyfriend”, then there’s an issue of consent. If it’s “the guy at the bar is a millionaire”, we usually don’t recognize a lack of consent. I don’t think this question is easy or cut and dry on any issue.

If you really identified that way, you wouldn’t be asking me to do it for you.

If trannies really identified as X, they wouldn’t be asking others to call them that. Others would just automatically recognize them as X.

So the same way that I’m not actually the top authority and don’t deserve to be called that and enjoy whatever privileges go along with that, trannies aren’t really what they say etc.

See, it’s not complicated.

Leftists only use this “let’s ignore reality” logic until it has consequences for them, like in order to be consistent with his nonsense Carleas would have to give control of the forum over to me. Basically, they are applying it selectively, hypocritically.

So there’s no reason to take them seriously.

Like when somebody tells you “words have no meaning” but then you physically submit them and start punching them in the face, they’ll start using words like “Please let go”, “stop punching me, please”, “you’re hurting me” etc. as if they have meaning.

I mean, the very sentence “words have no meaning”, why say them then?

Very easy to lie until you’re forced to face the real, tangible, physical consequences of your deceitful logic.

Saying “I can defeat a bear with my bare hands” - easy

Actually doing it - a bit harder

No, you are mistaken, I am causasian through and through. :astonished: :laughing:

It’s fun to burst your dangerous, clownish bubble of balloons…
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/05/22/europe-birthplace-mankind-not-africa-scientists-find/

:sunglasses: :evilfun:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/controversial-study-claims-apes-and-human-ancestors-split-southern-europe-180963426/

:-"

Carleas, doesn’t really think consequences matter particularly the consequences for lying matter, so he seems satisfied that trans people are beaten up and murdered and that is nobodies business but their own and the people whom they deceive who jack them up. The people who are fauxsexual victims should not be held liable for their knee jerk, emotional disgust and subsequent violent behavior. Fauxsexuals deserve the consequences for their lies, hoodwinking others when they are emotionally and physically vulnerable. Reality doesn’t care if Carleas understands my point or accepts it as valid, assault, battery, and murder will continue to happen when fauxsexuals take pretend too far.

When a man goes to bed with a woman he is not anticipating her telling him the morning after that like him she used to be a man as well
On this issue there should be no ambiguity whatsoever as she should reveal her status before she has sex every time with a different man

Biology is not salient in bathrooms?

As Wendy has helpfully pointed out, they frequently do. Do you concede that they should be considered X?

Surely you accept that there are things that are true by dint of a sincere belief that they are true, e.g. I am a Christian if and only if I sincerely believe that I’m a Christian. I don’t think our disagreement is about whether such things exist, just about whether the social dimension of sex identity is one of those things. We also agree, it seems, that property ownership is not one of those things. But I don’t see how property ownership connects to sex. Is your sex something you own, like a website? I can sell this site, are you saying that I can be a woman if I buy womanness? I can turn this site off, can I turn off my sex identity?

Interesting, I hadn’t seen this. Still, I don’t think it makes the point you want it to make. For one thing, there is still substantial debate about this among paleontologists. And popular reports are not likely to get the science right, e.g. the authors note that, “The media coverage to which Benoit and Thackeray refer in their comment concerning the hypothesis of a European origin of hominins – when in fact we propose an Eastern Mediterranean (which also includes Africa) origin – is a perfect example” (emphasis added). I’d say your use follows this politicized approach, since wherever the split from chimps occurred, only one line of human ancestors resulted. The fact remains that you and every black person share the same set of ancestors back beyond some finite number of generations.

You, every black person, and Rachel Dolezal.

You’re just repeating yourself. What makes it different from being raised Catholic, or Democrat, or having been a slut in high school, or majoring in art history, or having eaten pork earlier in the day? There are plenty of things in a person’s history that some other person will see as a deal breaker – and plenty that could drive a person so disposed to violence after the fact. I’m sure the population for whom being trans is that kind of thing is relatively large, but I don’t think it’s about anything inherent in being trans.

In almost every physical sport (and certainly in the ones we’re talking about where transwomen can actually pose a danger), physical contact between the participants happens in every minute of every match.

In my three decades of using public restrooms, I can’t remember experiencing or witnessing any physical contact between the people in the restroom that wasn’t a parent or other caregiver helping a young child.

That’s the sense in which biology is not salient in bathrooms.