Well, as I experienced it, it was like I asked you which type of fruit you were eating, and you answered with an essay on Amish communal barn raising. I couldn’t see a connection to the question. I am glad you put this as a guess, since with your sense of yourself, mind reading like this is a stretch.
I don’t know what you mean by ‘works’. You seem to be implying life is easy for me or something. I went through serious trauma as a child, and the specifics of it gave me insight into systemic problems - rather than individual perpetrator, bad apple theories of the world. I find life quite a struggle. I just do not find myself yearning to know or believing there are objective morals. So, not having them is not a hole for me. And when I look at the one’s with objective morals, I do not envy them. At least, not because of that. They, in the main, seem internally plagued by the same sort of battles they are waging in the outer world. And then, they still have to deal with the same kinds of shit life throws at me. But let me know what ‘works’ means to you.
I pretty much said this myself about you. You presented yourself as fractured and fragmented. I took that to be a negatively experienced state. IOW problematic. I said you did not seem to prioritize unity, though perhaps you thought an answer to your challenge would bring this. I doubt it will eliminate your fragmentation, but who knows.
For me, I have no need to rationalize a behavior, since this implies I must somehow explain it as OK in relation to objective morals. At the same time, there are all sorts of things I will not do because of empathy and likes and dislikes, etc. In terms of morals I might be free to do anything, but in terms of my emotional self - and of course in relation to practical consequences - there are many things I will not do.
- I did go into a specific situation and described what I did and thought weeks ago 2) Every objectivist I have met is fractured. They don’t harp on it, perhaps many cannot admit it, even to themselves, but I see cognitive dissonance, guilt, shame, confusion, lying, denial, repression, hypocrisy, etc. in all objectivists I meet. And to be fair, I also see some who will be open about this and their fractured nature.
I am trying to remain calm when I say this: do you not see how incredibly abstract your posts are?
An objectivist could be torn here also.
I don’t feel like I have the answer in relation to my desires or my empathy in relation to immigration, so I often react to the arguments and prejudices I am facing in the other person. Neither pro or con people are very happy with my responses. I am in a different country than you. Here I think that a number of things are happening at once. Industry is very pro immigration because it will crack the unions. The proletariat is against immigration - more than the other classes - I think in part because they sense that down the line they will be weakened, but certainly racial prejudices and even more strongly cultural ones play a role. When I felt very financially vulnerable, a couple of years ago, the immigration rates terrified me because I need to take care of a family and need the present buffers - ones you do not have in your country. I feel stronger now, so that is less of an issue. I do feel like the West is being weakened and intentionally. Or better put, corporate power in relation to citizen power is going up and I see immigration as part of this or refugees espeically since those numbers went up. I often say that no one mentions that the US, Britain and FRance have openly planned, thought not especially loudly, to change the regime in Syria - and all the other countries they have and will try this with. I would be much happier with the influx, if it was acknowledged that this situation is not, oh, there was a civil war and a nasty government in Syria, but rather something much more like the situation where the US funded the Contras in Nicaragua. If there is no responsibility taking or demanding in relation to the proxy war in Syria powered by corporate and military interests in the US and elsewhere, then the influx is tainted. On the other hand I feel empathy for fleeing refugees and am friends with several.
I have no pat answer or position. On some things I do, but not that one. Here we are dealing with an incredibly complex situation as it unfolds on the ground, and one with an incredibly complex set of agents and agencies who have been causal in relation to it. Then it is being used by many agents, and most of whom aim propaganda and oversimplifications at any feeling or thought any of us might have. I could react to any or all parts of this in a variety of ways. It is also a global issue. And fuck, I have just had the decks cleared on all of my family being diagnosed with a terminal illness, one having made it out of that diagnosis after a period of ten years. I am not in a position to fix even one other mind on the issue of immigration. I try to put my energy where it does something, or I fucking lie around because I am burned out. But when I sti with someone in some situation and they throw something pat at me, I do often come back with a reaction. I do disagree. And I am a pain the ass. I doubt I change anyone’s mind even about the specific cliche they have flung at me, but sometimes they do shut up, and not because I am screaming, but because they are suddenly confused. I am sure they work out their proper comeback later at home. Maybe someone has gone off and really mulled, but I ain’t holding my breath. Humility is the order of the day regarding my effects on immigration issues.
I think, however, but I am not sure, you feel you should have one and are tormented by the lack of one. A little Christlike. And look I am not saying that nastily. I can feel a tug there, but I have worked a long time on getting the Christian take up that cross thing out of my system. This may not be a difference between us, but sometimes I get the feeling you wrestle a lot with coming up with the answer, and I no longer do. My answer might have been based on my preferences/empathy rather than morals, but still I know what feeling like I must take a clear stand feels like. On some things I do not have much desire/guilt compelling me to find that single answer. I also notice how much change I can enact and it is, as far as I can tell, primarily quite local.
Again, objectivists can have those as values both as means and ends.
Yes, both those sentences seem true to me. You seem to see fewer tools but I do note the pragmatism.
The bottom line here may well be in how I react to this:
Actually no, that wasn’t abstract. I said what you focus on, that is, think about, and what you do not mentally prioritize. Maybe I was wrong, but that is a description of events during your day. Internal processes are real and concrete.
Well, sure. I don’t know if I have given the impression I boldly stride through the world, never bowing before another, or that my life is easy or whatever. But that’s not the case. So sure, I back down in the face of beauracracies fairly often. And better put I do thing so that the confrontation between their values or preferences and mine do not occur. I am not superman. I have swallowed my anger at a driver when I saw two big young men get out of the back of the car the other day. I hated the way they drove, risking my life and the driver’s licence. But hey, I ain’t no spring chicken, I headed home and did some primal screaming.
I did not at any point think, damn if only I was an objectivist that situation would have gone much better.
OK, I have given some other options than this list. You could either say why my added options are actually contained in your three or not real options, but simply repeating your here 2 but generally three options as the only options is kinda rude.
For me it is a rather concrete experience. I walk into a room, thinking about myself, looking at the woman and imagining how she might see me, feeling guilty for not complimenting her, second guessing my actions, the food I ordered, thinking the whole time, suppressing the attraction I feel, at least from being obvious, checking each sentence before it comes out and son, AND
after having worked on the roots of guilt around sexual feelings, reality checking with other people, expressing strong emotions with people who care about me (and therapists), openly talking about fears with other men who are comfortable with fear, strong emotions AND rage, savvy guys and a whole lot of other often intentionally choses processes aimed at not being so split
I do not second guess so much, I let much more spontaneous reactions be expressed, do not view myself through the eyes and judgments of the other (that I hallucinated in the past or even correctly guessed). I feel more unified, rather than a jailer and a jailed, judge and defendent, priest and sinner. Not two or more people sitting in the chair opposite the woman, but one.
About as concrete an experience as I can have. As palpable as a chair - you should really dive into the phenomenology of feeling a chair if you think that should be experienced as more concrete.
It seems that way on my end also. I am not makng the claim that I am a unity, but I experience much more of what the word unity seems to fit, than when I was younger. vastly more. I noticed directly relations to changes in this connectedto processes I intentionally engaged in and also via the way I learned to react to experiences informed by those processes. I don’t know if I am more unified than you, but it seems that way. Further I did put a lot of effort, time, expertise with that as a goal, and noticed both immediate effects and a general trend in my experience. I also think I confuse myself less with my thoughts alone than you do. That is also a guess, but it seems to me that despite your repeated use of ‘I’ as a contraption, you are looking for you ‘I’ primarily in the language based thought areas found by introspection. I think that’s a nearly impossible process to head toward unity. But then, you have said unity is not really a goal of yours.
I don’t know in our case, but I do think there are degrees of communication. That there is a vast spectrum running from completely misunderstanding and talking past, to deep intimate connection. I suspect you think that latter is a mere existential contraption. How on earth you decided you know about any ‘is’ I don’t know. I assume your sense that we can know about ‘is’, and also in ways we can’t about ‘ought’ came through reading. It seems like that reading effectively gave you ideas about perception, epistemology, what one can know with some degree of certainty and what one cannot and a whole lot of other stuff. And those were just guys writing books, not people you could talk to.
If they can do that imagine what 20 years with an expressive empathic friend or mate can lead to
I don’t think this is possible. I think you might on pragmatic grounds be more pragmatic and use a wider range of tools, while not giving up this tool. But I know this is a dead end to suggest this.
Well, that could be the case. You might also be stubborn or naive or you might be more frightened by what those other approaches entail or…and there are likely other alternatives.
Well, a nudge is possible, I would think.