To iambiguous

Months ago, in a more direct response to that cut and paste thing, i told iambiguous that he seems confused in a way that he hypothetically could have been born as anyone with a differing view … so how should he choose one. I replied something like: you weren’t born as anyone, you were born as you, so stop blaming others by incident of birth for your problems to this regard, and listen to them as well.

Oh well.

I guess my sense has been that he is a terrible discussion partner, it is as if his ideas are not to be challenged, though he will nevertheless, misleadingly, interact with challenges, sort of.

But if there is very clear truth in advertising. Like X is all I will discuss. I want it in this format. Everything else I will ignore - and he needs to,then, ignore it, like he does in this thread. Then people can directly see he will not really look at the underpinnings of his position or his behavior in the discussion, his misinterpretations and false dilemmas, his metaphysics, etc. and they can choose to have him as a partner or not.

I can even see where he may think he has been clear about this.

but discussion forums are a culture, and he enters that culture, sometimes, seems to participate in the more complicated ways one expects in a discussion forum, only to back out in what seemed a solipsistic rude way. If it is clear he is not interested in nearly all the unstated guidelines and expectations of discussion cultures, it is then up to others to decide based on this knowledge.

It’s like if you meet someone, they say they just want casual sex, make this clear, you can’t then blame them if they don’t want to move into an apartment together at a later date.

He won’t even discuss the stuff that supposedly interests him.

There is no concrete example that you can provide which he will consider as adequate.

There is no answer to “how ought one to live?” which is adequate.

There is no description of “I” which is adequate.

There is no way to “bring it down to earth”.

He either says that he doesn’t understand what you are saying, or he thinks it’s beside the point or it’s just another "intellectual contraption’. If it looks like it’s getting too “close to earth”, he goes back to the abstractions … epistemology, deontology, etc.

I’ve tried, probably more than anyone on this site.

I agree with iambiguous……

you do have the right to fight the battles you want to fight,
not necessarily all the battles… just the ones you want to fight…

and quite often I won’t engage with certain people because I know
where it will go and frankly, I am not interested in wasting my time
with them…

as one gets older, time becomes more important then any other aspect,
and wasting one’s time with certain people is just not worth it…

it is an example of wisdom, picking one’s battles…

Kropotkin

I think it would be useful to look closely at Lambiguous’ last paragraphs to justify his understanding of what Dasein means to him, in the context he is using it, rather then arrive at an objective definition, since it seems to me, that this is all that was done: like looking up referential definitions. I think that isn’t he crux of the matter here.

Starting from the bold paragraph, "I am always of the opinion …down to the end including the paragraphs in bold letters. I have read this and I think that to be able to get to his unique position its important and worth a try.

The existential position nowadays are very hard to ground because the bottom fell out around the time when universal principles of social ism fell out favor, starting with Sartre in the 1950’s, and fractured into the Italian and the French , the Chinese versions.

What interesting is his use of -fracture and fragment - in am existentially reduced , personal level. There is a deep tie in there.

In this way the philosophical argument can continue, as a modus operandi, rather then mixing psycholisms with moral arguments. When one says 'i am of the opinion. as a starter, it immediately diaqualifies a moral argument in an existential mode , because opinions can not.contrive a general argument in terms of Dasein, where Dasein is never used in the sense of opinion. The circular loop begins in not having a clear notion of.meaning here.

The attempt to get to it did not get very far in a previous forum , on Heidegger’s meaning of Dasein, so perhaps it could start through another channel of exploration?

Good point, but intentionality comes through the back door whether we like it or not, since we are involved in a certain philosophical forum with its requirement of participating , even if we have our own opinions.

Put a different way, its difficult to argue a point without some measure of objectivity, about a subject which excludes the idea of objectivity of moral issues. And of the argument stays on that level, then it stays there, and becomes a matter of optics, creating illusions and perhaps false images.

I’ve done a lot of calculations on morality

m.youtube.com/watch?v=DiUrry3GWq8&t=59s

This link may need to be rewound

The gist of the video is that a world with more than one person is the only aspect that causes problems, by proof of what living in a world with more than one person causes… the solution deals with the issue of “how do you change everyone without changing anyone?”

I’m working on giving the hallucinated world spirituality from eternal forms, as many beings find this indespensible. I’m looking at substrate issues, all kinds of stuff.

Iambiguous is completely disinterested in my hole, damned if you do, damned if you don’t (as a proof) or my solution, which is a solution to all possible moral issues - conflicting desire fulfillment (not conflicting goods - a much harder problem than his!)

Practically speaking, he’s not at my level of attainment, his hole being much shallower than my own - which proves that everyone on the earth is a psychopath except me… I prove it in that video, none of you thought of the 5 heartbreaks of relationship for example. Why? Because I’m less psychopathic than you. Iambiguous also uses a tease, very female, the tease is: if someone comes along and pulls me out of the hole or changes my mind, they will be the hero of all time… shamming unsuspecting victims into proving themselves worthy without iambiguous using any intellectual output themselves, which is why people do get caught up in discussions with iambiguous that we all know are shallow with respect to cognition and morality and relationship.

Have any of you guys been able to discuss with Iambig the stuff that he is interested in and in the way that he expects?

If yes, then please provide a link to those discussions.

I don’t think it has happened. (Unless I’m wrong.)

Pick an issue to talk about here. Then we can discuss what it means to properly “engage” it.

More discussion about having a discussion. What I would prefer is a discussion of the existential relationship between “self”, “values” and “political power” as it pertains to a conflicting good out in a particular world most here are likely to be familiar with. As that pertains to a philosophical examination of the question “how ought one to live” in a world of conflicting goods.

Actually, my point is that “I” am down in the hole regarding all moral and political issues. Given any particular context there are those things able to be demonstrated as true for all of us, and those things that appear [to me] to be invested more in the manner in which I construe the meaning of dasein in the is/ought world.

And, clearly: if someone here is not interested in exploring my own approach to “I” as an existential contraption – a bundle of political prejudices at the intersection of self, values and political economy – they can move on to others.

With you though [on thread after thread] you choose to engage in a discussion with me…and then abandon it. Perhaps because you feel that I refuse to engage in the “exact role” that you have in mind for others.

Come on, how hard is it to note the manner in which any particular value judgment that you now embody is embedded sequentially in the evolution of your particular experiences, your particular relationships and your access to particular information, knowledge and ideas.

I merely note that in articulating this you are pointing out all of the experiences, relationships and ideas that you did not have access to.

And that “I” here out in the is/ought world revolves around grasping the implications of that for any particular “I”.

This part:

[b]Identity is ever constructed, deconstructed and reconstructed over the years by hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of variables—some of which we had/have no choice/control regarding. We really are “thrown” into a fortuitous smorgasbord of demographic factors at birth and then molded and manipulated as children into whatever configuration of “reality” suits the cultural [and political] institutions of our time.

On the other hand:

In my view, one crucial difference between people is the extent to which they become more or less self-conscious of this. Why? Because, obviously, to the extent that they do, they can attempt to deconstruct the past and then reconstruct the future into one of their own more autonomous making. [/b]

But then this part:

But then what does this really mean? That is the question that has always fascinated me the most. Once I become cognizant of how profoundly problematic my “self” is, what can “I” do about it? And what are the philosophical implications of acknolwedging that identity is, by and large, an existential contraption that is always subject to change without notice? What can we “anchor” our identity to so as to make this prefabricated…fabricated…refabricated world seem less vertiginous? And, thus, more certain.

Until we bring this “general description” of me down to earth, I’m still at a loss as to what you are intending to convey substantively about the components of my own narrative.

Given a context likely to be familiar to most of us.

Admittedly, very few folks here engage me in the particular discussion that I crave. And those that once did [in the past] are long gone.

I suspect this revolves around…

1] the fact that my “style” tends to be provocative, challenging…even surly at times.
2] the speculation that my “message” is disturbing. In particular with regard to understanding the nature of “I” as a fractured, fragmented existential contraption unable to truly [wholly, fully] commit to a set of values.
3] my emphasis on oblivion in a No God world.

I already gave you the answer iambiguous.

If we can hallucinate our reality from eternal forms without impinging on others doing the same, then we not only solve the sense of a stable “I”, we also solve all moral problems.

Then we are back to our exchange on other threads regarding the issue you construe as an adequate example: Communism.

All I can do [as I did] is note the distinction that I make between that which you are able to convey as true for all of us regarding it, and that which I argue is embedded more in the “existential contraption” that was your own particular “I” in conjunction with it.

And then to note how those who react to capitalism as you do to Communism are in much the same existential boat.

Which brings us to the extent to which philosophers/ethicists can settle this dispute once and for all by providing a moral/political narrative/agenda that all rational/virtuous men and women are obligated to share.

And then with you how this is all situated in your refrain about God and religion.

On the contrary, the moral and political objectivists insist that of course there is.

But it’s got to be theirs.

Right?

Sure there are. There are any number of variables here able to convey any particular “self” concretely. Where you are, what you are doing, your age, your place of birth, your family members, your height, your weight, the events that you experienced in your life. True objectively for you, true objectively for all of us.

Or, rather, true depending on ones access to the facts.

More huffing and puffing about the problem being me.

Okay, let’s redo the discussion regarding Communism [or pick another value judgment] and you can expose more specifically what you are accusing me of here.

Are you still here? :wink:

Reposting: I figured iambiguous would miss this message, which I’m willing to discuss at depth

Well, on the surface he is asking for a method to resolve all conflicting goods without force. IOW for an objectivist to step forward, show via text arguments that will and should convince all rational people and continue to do so one all issues. I say on the surface because his could be a rhetorical position, as in he does not think they can and mainly wants to throw the gauntlet down and watch the objectivist fail or run. These are not mutually exclusive, also. He could be doing the latter rhetorical posturing but also be at the same time hoping for the former type of objectivist to appear, winning him over and lifting him up from his hole, not via self-help ideas, even if these are scientifically supported.

I don’t think it is possible to satisfy what he is interested in, and in this I mean also that even if some method existed, it would likely take large periods of time and involve more that just text based interactions. Think Truth and Reconciliation processes coupled with demonstrations and statistics and films and long debates and…multiplied by millions. Maybe we are doing that but it ain’t gonna be proven in his lifetime.
There are also possible processes where universal ideas of the good or preferences become accepted, whether or not these are objective being another issue. IOW perhaps one day no groups at least and very few individuals will think owning a slave is OK. That issue could potentially resolve. It would not mean that it has been determined that slavery is objectively bad, just that people, no doubt in part via argument and discourse and propaganda and life experience moved towards agreement.

It is not clear to me if he would be happy with solutions where conflicting goods disappear, but no scientific repeatable process was found to prove one or neither of those goods was OBJECTIVELY correct.

We, as social mammals, might find ways of relating that we all think are the best. Which is different from saying they are GOOD. WE might find agreement on some, resolve only some conflicting goods. Probably we have resolved, in the main, the issue of whether football (soccer) should be legal to play, at least as children.

However I would bet the house on his never being satisfied that an objectivist has met his criteria. One can only hope he enjoys the process and I suspect he does.

That’s my take on his Sisyfusian task or provocation or both and whether it has been successfully met wihtout his noticing it.

Okay, let’s concentrate on this because it’s fairly typical.

Instead of exploring “how ought one live” in a discussion, you dismiss the answers as some objectivists insisting on something … forcing their views onto you.

Not even a simple proposal on how to live has been made and you already have your back up.

The irony here being that back in my own objectivist days – as a Christian, a Unitarian, a Marxist-Leninist, a Trotskyist, a Democratic-Socialist, a Social Democrat – I was clearly a terrible discussion partner. Why? Because if you didn’t share my values, you were, quite simply, wrong.

And boy did it feel good to think that!!

And then irony number two:

My current frame of mind is embedded in what “I” construe to be an essentially meaningless world that ends for all of eternity in oblivion. A world in which a hopelessly fractured and fragmented “I” is unable to take but profoundly problematic leaps of faith to one or another moral and political value.

And, wow, how comforting and consoling that is!!!

Just describing how the threads progress. (or rather don’t progress.)

Talking to you is like reading page 1 of a book over and over. It’s impossible to get off page 1 because you keep bringing it back there.

First of all, I readily acknowledge that there may well exist such an objective methodolgy for resolving moral and political conflicts.

The existence of an omnipotent and omniscient God for example.

My point is to make the assumption [and that’s all I can ever really do here] that we live in a No God world.

What then might an objective methodolgy be for determining how one ought to live in a world of conflicting goods? How might any particular mere mortal go about demonstrating that it is.

That’s the – inherently? – tricky part about these exchanges. Some are noting to others what “in their head” “here and now” they think it might be. But do they really have a way of closing the gap between what they think they know here and now is true, and all that would need to be known [ontologically] about the nature of existence itself?

Some will argue in turn that in a determined universe there is really no capacity to argue anything here autonomously, freely.

I merely probe further by grappling with the implications of all this in the is/ought world.

There is in fact what I am, but there is in fact only that which I think “I” ought to be in order to be in sync with what may or may not be the “real me” out in a world where my value judgments may or may not be existential contraptions rooted in a particular set of political prejudices in a world teeming with contingency, chance and chance such that I have no way of knowing for certain how new experiences, relationships and ideas might reconfigure “I” into the embodiment of a whole other frame of mind.

Then I speculate that this may well be applicable to all others too.

I just know that it has already happened many times to “me” in the past.

No, let’s concentrate instead on a point of contention that we have discussed previously: Communism.

This part:

[b][i]All I can do [as I did] is note the distinction that I make between that which you are able to convey as true for all of us regarding it, and that which I argue is embedded more in the “existential contraption” that was your own particular “I” in conjunction with it.

And then to note how those who react to capitalism as you do to Communism are in much the same existential boat.

Which brings us to the extent to which philosophers/ethicists can settle this dispute once and for all by providing a moral/political narrative/agenda that all rational/virtuous men and women are obligated to share. [/i][/b]

How are you not arguing that if others wish to grasp the most reasonable reaction to it, they will come to embody yours?

And how have you demonstrated to me that in fact it is yours?

And my point is that, down in the “hole”, as soon as I note arguments that attack Communism, I can note arguments that embrace it.

Conflicting goods predicated on particular sets of assumptions regarding the human condition.

Clearly, for example, if one presumes that human interactions revolve more fundamentally around “we” than “I”, that will precipitate political narratives/agendas very different from those who presume the opposite.

Karl Marx took this in one direction, Adam Smith in another.

Ok, Mr. Philosopher, using the tools at your disposal which narrative makes more sense?

Observation: what makes sense between ideologies , is not based on an either/or plane of reference. Or does so retroactively, but that level mainly produce an optical effect- maybe an illusion and bottom line , the now famous delusion .

Perhaps that is the level that a neo-Kantian ism - Heiseggerinism , neo Platonism can land us, argued after the fact.

But to choose between the sensible and the nonsensible?
On what basis?

Obviously this major difference can not any longer be argued, so there goes the Vienna Circle Positivist argument. Mayne its time.

Its just as difficult to convince people to move on, in this case Sasseure and school, as it is those whose assumptions are retroactively based on opinions of others, (as opposed to outers)