Enlightenment

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Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Mon May 14, 2018 4:28 pm

All these things: fear of mortality, religious beliefs, and the advent and to progress of science, the idea of immortality, of selfhood are connected with the transcending concept of enlightenment.

This topic encapsulates the notion of consciousness, inquiries into what that may be.

A thesis may be posited now, at this juncture of history, as to what really is going on within these separate ideas. as they seem to interconnect, as post modernity conjured the motions of signs in the mode of philosophy, as they too seem to start to point to what has been noted as supernatural signs.

( Just ran out of these musings due to need errands bit will return to it as soon as possible today.).
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Mon May 14, 2018 4:55 pm

The memory wipes that come with reincarnation point to stalling enlightenment.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Dan~ » Mon May 14, 2018 10:35 pm

There are many forms of enlightenment, and each one compliments the other.

I've been focused upon the positive effects of peace, lately.
I had a special experience that i already posted about.
I will try to remember it and draw wisdom from it.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue May 15, 2018 5:56 am

WendyDarling wrote:The memory wipes that come with reincarnation point to stalling enlightenment.

Interesting point. I hadn't heard that before, though I suppose it fits with my sense that death is a trauma, not simply a part of some lovely evolution towards enlightenment, but a real blow to the soul.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 15, 2018 4:57 pm

WendyDarling wrote:The memory wipes that come with reincarnation point to stalling enlightenment.



If you believe in reincarnation, given the fact that the soil has had an infinitely vast time to enlighten, then the lapse of memory is a necessary part why the enlightened soul comes back, anyhow.

The Vedas expresses in terms of the willingness to reincarnated , nut its only am act of will to try to liberate from the effects of Karmic law. The binding power of that power leaves no choice in the matter for the unenlightened.

In essence the enlightened realize the self to be part of that, which they are at the nexus of the power which kwwpa life running.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 15, 2018 5:00 pm

Dan~ wrote:There are many forms of enlightenment, and each one compliments the other.

I've been focused upon the positive effects of peace, lately.
I had a special experience that i already posted about.
I will try to remember it and draw wisdom from it.


There are many forms, but the Absolute form is formless, that is why it can not be directly apprehended .
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 15, 2018 5:04 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:The memory wipes that come with reincarnation point to stalling enlightenment.

Interesting point. I hadn't heard that before, though I suppose it fits with my sense that death is a trauma, not simply a part of some lovely evolution towards enlightenment, but a real blow to the soul.


Birth is a trauma as well , but it is the effect of Karmic law, whereas death is the cause of it. At death , the causal chains begin a new spiral , because of the effects of the last incarnation, which are not remember at birth. Memory comes back slowly upon a look back to proclivity toward certain types of actions taken.Birth is not really a beginning of a clean slate.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Wed May 16, 2018 5:42 am

Memory comes back slowly upon a look back to proclivity toward certain types of actions taken.Birth is not really a beginning of a clean slate.

A soul's essence is it's proclivity to exist a certain way, its general and maybe even specific nature, attributes it carries at it's core for eternity. I don't believe that those propensities can be innately changed, only the outward behaviors can be redirected which may make one's soul counter-intuitively respond against its internal composition defying its very will through diverted actions that do not align with its needs. Is that enlightenment, to deny oneself satisfaction, to override one's internal communications, to be other, trying to do better, but never being truly free to journey away from our true selves?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed May 16, 2018 1:14 pm

Meno_ wrote:
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:The memory wipes that come with reincarnation point to stalling enlightenment.

Interesting point. I hadn't heard that before, though I suppose it fits with my sense that death is a trauma, not simply a part of some lovely evolution towards enlightenment, but a real blow to the soul.


Birth is a trauma as well , but it is the effect of Karmic law, whereas death is the cause of it. At death , the causal chains begin a new spiral , because of the effects of the last incarnation, which are not remember at birth. Memory comes back slowly upon a look back to proclivity toward certain types of actions taken.Birth is not really a beginning of a clean slate.

I don't think it's a clean slate. Apart from proclivities and knowledge, memories can be retrieved. What I found interesting was that there is something wrong with the cycle. the death, swipe, rebirth pattern is faulty. There is no benefit to having a memory swipe which is shown by amongst other things the benefits of recalling past lives. We are generally presented with this cycle as some perfect evolutionary process, when it is in fact a damaged problematic one.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Wed May 16, 2018 2:49 pm

We are generally presented with this cycle as some perfect evolutionary process, when it is in fact a damaged problematic one.

I agree. Some report that each soul chooses the life it inhabits. Chooses as in assuming a role or creating a role? Also, what of the inbetween lives? Where are the memories and knowledge of existing as pure consciousness? Is that stored in the soul? Can we access that information while here on earth? Past life regression never seems to reveal that information, at least I haven't heard of it.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 17, 2018 12:22 am

Karpal tunnel , Wendy Darling : choice would not be possible if, birth and death would not result in a trait change, ( karmic and genetic) and the structural dynamic would not afford a choice- of roles. Although on the primary level. of intentions Your thoughts are arguably valid, but from the higher level of of goals it can not merge with it. Development is most probably goal oriented


Without that, knowledge between good and evil could not be revealed, because a necessary stasis would result, on account of typing if traits would remain at a structural stand still.

I know it has to begin somewhere, and where, is one of those hidden miracles.

It would be a waste to discern animal from man in absolute terms of a conscious manifestation of a role that a soul could make.(as opposed to a Soul)

This is arguing backwards from a given we all agreed to so far.(The givens are admission of soul, conscious sole, and a Super Soul) Given that even admittedly animals also have souls)

Or not? But the minute You admit duplicity into it, we are back at a primary level of a structureless dynamic of near absolute stasis.

Or not?

This encapsulates my opening of the promise to begin on some level, whwrein all three contributions bring forth the dynamics of how evolution of types does not conflict with Darwin or Huxley. They probably omitted the spiritual element on purpose.
,
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 17, 2018 1:02 am

WendyDarling wrote:
We are generally presented with this cycle as some perfect evolutionary process, when it is in fact a damaged problematic one.

I agree. Some report that each soul chooses the life it inhabits. Chooses as in assuming a role or creating a role? Also, what of the inbetween lives? Where are the memories and knowledge of existing as pure consciousness? Is that stored in the soul? Can we access that information while here on earth? Past life regression never seems to reveal that information, at least I haven't heard of it.



Because of the complex nature of Your questions , they have to be taken up separately and more explicitly in my opinion.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Thu May 17, 2018 2:06 am

The givens are admission of soul, conscious sole, and a Super Soul)

Soul admitted. One soul. Are you referring to two or three types of souls per being? And what is the difference between the conscious soul and the Super Soul?

Because of the complex nature of Your questions , they have to be taken up separately and more explicitly in my opinion.

Good. Thanks.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Thu May 17, 2018 3:14 am

WendyDarling wrote:
The givens are admission of soul, conscious sole, and a Super Soul)

Soul admitted. One soul. Are you referring to two or three types of souls per being? And what is the difference between the conscious soul and the Super Soul?

Because of the complex nature of Your questions , they have to be taken up separately and more explicitly in my opinion.

Good. Thanks.




The soul is One, true, but vegetable, animal and human soul, if the exist, operate on different levels.
They may have connections, but their operation as conscesniess per se, have different potentials for realization.

There are beliefs of soul travel intergenus, however that is less probable then otherwise.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Prismatic567 » Sat May 19, 2018 8:25 am

There are many perspectives to the term 'enlightenment' since this is a R&S forum I will assume we are referring to 'Spiritual Enlightenment'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(spiritual)

The root word of the term is;
Enlighten: give (someone) greater knowledge and understanding about a subject or situation.

I believe spiritual enlightenment covers the following aspects;
    1. Theoretical knowledge of enlightenment - 'what'
    2. Practical knowledge of 'how'
    3. Personal experiences

The Eastern religions and philosophies interpret 'enlightenment' in terms of liberation [moksha], detachment-nothingness [sunyata] and the likes.
But what are we to liberate and detach from?

Human beings evolved within a continuum of living things.
Non-humans living things are driven by its inherent nature and instincts without being able to consciously worry about threats in the future and other self-conscious & moral concerns. They go naked and f... whenever and wherever they are driven to.

Humans are the ONLY living beings that are endowed with strong self-awareness to worry about future threats and intrinsic moral obligations. The worse threat that effect human subconsciously is the 'threat of mortality' manifesting as an existential dilemma that generate Angst within humans. In addition there is the inherent moral drive within that will cause. mental conflicts. There are other conflicting impulses human beings has to deal with.

I believe spiritual enlightenment [of various degrees] is the cultivated competence [via theory, practice and experience] to face the inevitable existential threats and conflicting impulses with equanimity, act morally & wisely and live in all aspects of life optimally. Note 'cultivated' means achieving the right neural connections in correspondence to the level of competence.

For example an highly enlightened person will not be swayed by the various conscious manifestation of the existential threat of mortality. In contrast, an unenlightened person will not know the basis of the existential reactions and thus turned to an illusory God and even will kill to please God. This is merely one example, there are many within the full range of life.
I am a progressive human being, a World Citizen, NOT-a-theist and not religious.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 19, 2018 10:40 am

WendyDarling wrote:
We are generally presented with this cycle as some perfect evolutionary process, when it is in fact a damaged problematic one.

I agree. Some report that each soul chooses the life it inhabits. Chooses as in assuming a role or creating a role? Also, what of the inbetween lives? Where are the memories and knowledge of existing as pure consciousness? Is that stored in the soul? Can we access that information while here on earth? Past life regression never seems to reveal that information, at least I haven't heard of it.

I don't think there is a rule about the in-between states. I think different individuals experience different things. I have experiences of the inbetween state, memories that is, and I did not find it pleasant. Like being in a washing machine. It's not pure consciousnessness, per se, but a jumbled spiritual state. LIkely others experience more placid times there.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 19, 2018 10:41 am

Meno_ wrote:Karpal tunnel , Wendy Darling : choice would not be possible if, birth and death would not result in a trait change, ( karmic and genetic) and the structural dynamic would not afford a choice- of roles. Although on the primary level. of intentions Your thoughts are arguably valid, but from the higher level of of goals it can not merge with it. Development is most probably goal oriented


Without that, knowledge between good and evil could not be revealed, because a necessary stasis would result, on account of typing if traits would remain at a structural stand still.

I know it has to begin somewhere, and where, is one of those hidden miracles.

It would be a waste to discern animal from man in absolute terms of a conscious manifestation of a role that a soul could make.(as opposed to a Soul)

This is arguing backwards from a given we all agreed to so far.(The givens are admission of soul, conscious sole, and a Super Soul) Given that even admittedly animals also have souls)

Or not? But the minute You admit duplicity into it, we are back at a primary level of a structureless dynamic of near absolute stasis.

Or not?

This encapsulates my opening of the promise to begin on some level, whwrein all three contributions bring forth the dynamics of how evolution of types does not conflict with Darwin or Huxley. They probably omitted the spiritual element on purpose.
,

Could you perhaps reword these points; I really can't understand what you are saying.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Sat May 19, 2018 7:11 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
We are generally presented with this cycle as some perfect evolutionary process, when it is in fact a damaged problematic one.

I agree. Some report that each soul chooses the life it inhabits. Chooses as in assuming a role or creating a role? Also, what of the inbetween lives? Where are the memories and knowledge of existing as pure consciousness? Is that stored in the soul? Can we access that information while here on earth? Past life regression never seems to reveal that information, at least I haven't heard of it.

I don't think there is a rule about the in-between states. I think different individuals experience different things. I have experiences of the inbetween state, memories that is, and I did not find it pleasant. Like being in a washing machine. It's not pure consciousnessness, per se, but a jumbled spiritual state. LIkely others experience more placid times there.

Why don't you think there is a rule about in between states? At any rate, I never thought that all planes of pure consciousness are the same so not all will experience the same. I would however relish hearing or reading more about purely conscious places. Mind sharing more of what you mean by in between? What does a jumbled spiritual state look like, feel like?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Tue May 22, 2018 8:49 am

WendyDarling wrote:Why don't you think there is a rule about in between states?
1) I hear different experiences from different people. 2) I don't see why there would be sudden enlightenment or purity or sameness after death. That person has gone through its particular life and carries its particular confusions, desires, needs, etc.

At any rate, I never thought that all planes of pure consciousness are the same so not all will experience the same. I would however relish hearing or reading more about purely conscious places. Mind sharing more of what you mean by in between? What does a jumbled spiritual state look like, feel like?
The Tibetan Book of the Dead has one version of in-between.

I googled memories between lives and got...https://www.earth-association.org/artic ... tomlinson/

You could find a regression person and ask to focus on the in-between states.

In-between as in in between incarnations.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 22, 2018 3:55 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Meno_ wrote:Karpal tunnel , Wendy Darling : choice would not be possible if, birth and death would not result in a trait change, ( karmic and genetic) and the structural dynamic would not afford a choice- of roles. Although on the primary level. of intentions Your thoughts are arguably valid, but from the higher level of of goals it can not merge with it. Development is most probably goal oriented


Without that, knowledge between good and evil could not be revealed, because a necessary stasis would result, on account of typing if traits would remain at a structural stand still.

I know it has to begin somewhere, and where, is one of those hidden miracles.

It would be a waste to discern animal from man in absolute terms of a conscious manifestation of a role that a soul could make.(as opposed to a Soul)

This is arguing backwards from a given we all agreed to so far.(The givens are admission of soul, conscious sole, and a Super Soul) Given that even admittedly animals also have souls)

Or not? But the minute You admit duplicity into it, we are back at a primary level of a structureless dynamic of near absolute stasis.

Or not?

This encapsulates my opening of the promise to begin on some level, whwrein all three contributions bring forth the dynamics of how evolution of types does not conflict with Darwin or Huxley. They probably omitted the spiritual element on purpose.
,

Could you perhaps reword these points; I really can't understand what you are saying.[u

The traits, we are born with are the result of an accumulation of so calledvinherited ones. Darwin limits these to physical traits, and omits 'spiritual-cognitive traits. Being a materialist, and I am guessing here, he may not want to delve into spiritual traits, but if he were to do so, he would most certainly be a reductionist, by treating spiritual, (in the broad sense),types as a psychologism, as did Jung, for instance.
But he was not a psychologist, and ideas such as those which consist of Karmic Laws, do not interest him.
This is why , even in the minimal sense, he would take up Wendy's idea of Roles, not as an inherited trait, but a phenomenal structural one, and he would assert the clean slate of every newly born human. He would arguably be unprepared to deal with the psyche in any other way, other then a determinist would, as a product of measurable cause and effect.

At the primal level, this cause and effect is binary, and evolutionary theory for him does. It include a natural plan by design, toward which evolution is progressing, but simply the product of natural selection,with choice limited by various factors, but usually choosing a course of and through the most adaptive lineage.

If a conscious Being can arguably have some psychic imprint from previous lives, then the theory of psychic types makes sense. On that level, and from that level, an ex-post facto argument can support the idea of past lives as basis from which psychic evolution makes sense
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Tue May 22, 2018 4:48 pm

Karpel, will you share your in between experiences? I'm gonna check out your link.

You could find a regression person and ask to focus on the in-between states.

Any specific recommendations?

Meno wrote
If a conscious Being can arguably have some psychic imprint from previous lives, then the theory of psychic types makes sense. On that level, and from that level, an ex-post facto argument can support the idea of past lives as basis from which psychic evolution makes sense

What is a psychic imprint? What is this psychic evolution?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby WendyDarling » Tue May 22, 2018 5:21 pm

2) I don't see why there would be sudden enlightenment or purity or sameness after death. That person has gone through its particular life and carries its particular confusions, desires, needs, etc.

What I found interesting about astral projecting to the plane of peace is that when I asked if I had lived a life as a human, my life was revealed in a black and white montage without any emotional context, very matter-o-factly without my biases or beliefs. Very strange indeed to view one's life from such a detached vantage point. When you have no human body, no human needs to be satisfied or experienced, I arrived on that plane without any emotional baggage, lacking all memories of my life until I asked for proof.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 22, 2018 6:10 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Karpel, will you share your in between experiences? I'm gonna check out your link.

You could find a regression person and ask to focus on the in-between states.


Wendy,

The argument against a clean slate beginning is counter the intuitive argument for progression (or regression) in the Bardo state. I've read the Book of the Dead several times, and what the soul does in the Bardo state is an imprint which will effect and ultimately determine the Karmic manifestation. I believe You called it the role the taken by the incubation of the manifested soul, becoming embodied. These roles can evolve or devolve , and of significance in the Bardo state, is, that there is a limited amount of freedom to chose the psychic area, where the embodiment will be attached to the soul.
Given this scenario, the soul can detach a particular attachment at the last second, a binding force so strong, that it's severing can indeed culminate into a total Enlightement. For such to occur , only the rarest of soul can venture to attain it, some souls may take as many as millions of.lifetimes, or even billions.The imprint can become so strongly bound, that am evolution toward perfection may not be possible.


Any specific recommendations?

Meno wrote
If a conscious Being can arguably have some psychic imprint from previous lives, then the theory of psychic types makes sense. On that level, and from that level, an ex-post facto argument can support the idea of past lives as basis from which psychic evolution makes sense

What is a psychic imprint? What is this psychic evolution?
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 22, 2018 6:11 pm

sorry my answer ended up in the wrong place
I hope Kerpel doesent mind my interjection.at times, and I offer the idea that aspects of this theme convoluted relevance at this level.
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Re: Enlightenment

Postby Meno_ » Tue May 22, 2018 6:14 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
2) I don't see why there would be sudden enlightenment or purity or sameness after death. That person has gone through its particular life and carries its particular confusions, desires, needs, etc.

What I found interesting about astral projecting to the plane of peace is that when I asked if I had lived a life as a human, my life was revealed in a black and white montage without any emotional context, very matter-o-factly without my biases or beliefs. Very strange indeed to view one's life from such a detached vantage point. When you have no human body, no human needs to be satisfied or experienced, I arrived on that plane without any emotional baggage, lacking all memories of my life until I asked for proof.




I believe that answers to that question is effected by the primal perceptive logic of the beginning state, this is why, at the animal stage, very few animals can think except in nominal, binary affects. as most thought is occupied and imprinted from the fight or flight basic existential threat.
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