The problem of evil

While I love a puzzle challenge like this and think I can certainly find other, even red side of the divide, hypocrites, i think in this forum it is probably best to say. good point. And perhaps refer to how US capitalists have influenced latin americans. It not necessarily the best example, but it is so clear.

In what sense are they hypocrites?

In a Christian society, food needs to be grow, goods need to be manufactured, products need to be distributed. It’s not possible for everyone to give away all his possessions and wander the desert.

Is the only way to perform those actions via current neo-liberal capitalism?
Are their ways that do not allow, for example, corporate personhood, permanent corporate charter (that is we used to withdraw corporate charters from companies that did messed up stuff, but no more), corporate control of elected officials (that is current lobbying and election finance practices), fiat banking and banker creation of money, the variety of not based on labor types of earning (the capital part of capitalism, especially in its modern form), corporate control of media and the like`?

IOW I think in a lot of these kinds of discussions there is a false dilemma between state socialism a al the USSR and capitalism, as if the latter represents freedom of tyranny and the former is the only way to hinder the oligarchies we have today that call themselves democracies.

I didn’t say that it was the only way, but it’s a possible way. Christian capitalists would have discuss the morality and ethics of it, to determine which aspects of capitalism are in sync with Christianity and which are not.
Capitalism is a broad subject and there are many aspects to it. It includes the person who owns an auto repair shop (or hairstylist) and employs a couple of people. That sort of business does not seem to be contrary to Christian principles.

Jesus and the apostles did not provide any specific answers to those questions. There is not one true Christian position to go to. Can Christian capitalists be called hypocrites if they see some of those things as not being contrary to Christianity? I don’t think so.

To me that’s not capitalism. Capitalism is the way the economy is organized in general. The person owning the repair shop would have days very similar in many types of economic system. And that person is not a capitalist, he or she is a laborer. Or a small business owner with minor capital. He makes money off his labor. Which people do in all sorts of economies.

They can if those things lead to evil treatment of people, which they do. A Christian auto repair worker in the US has little choice but to participate in the wider economy. But to be pro-Capitalist is another matter. Most people do not realize that capitalism is many of the things it is and further a system that was democratic and even allowed for varieties of income need not be capitalist. Christian capitalists in the 80s say, were supporting evil in Latin America where corporations were doing whatever they wanted including overthrowing governments and getting people killed and stifling democracy. Wall Street and corporations connected to the Bush administration created the second Iraq war for a set of different money related reasons. No one has gone to prison for this and the reasons come down to facets of capitalism: control of government, government oversight and also media.

The auto repair shop guy does not have capital in the sense of capitalism. He makes money from his labor. The people making decisions make money through capital. The system is mainly for them. There are facets that work to varying degrees for other people, but most people are not capitalists, say in the US, even if they think capitalism is the best or least bad alternative.

The zero sum game aspects of capitalism are anti-christian. There almost no convictions for the 2008 financial crisis despite the enormous effects on the world and workers. This is because capitalism is for the capitalists, primarily. Try stealing in the ways non-capitalist class members steal and you will find out you are not considered a capitalist by the system. This does not fit with Christianity where we all have equal value. None of this means that communism, especially on a large scale, has fit with Christianity. But these are not the only choices.

Capitalism necessarily enhances the view that other people are resources (or not) and not people (or souls). It is also utterly materialistic in its view of human worth. There is no spiritual aspect to humans in capitalism, something capitalism shares with communism.

But most obviously Capitalism contradicts the Sermon on the Mount. Capitalists absolutely do not follow ‘do unto others as you would have…’ They don’t even pass the less restrictive Mosaic version that Jesus was making even tougher. Their expectations for their own treatment does not match their expectations for the treatment of others, and capitalism is precisely designed to honor, again not coincidentally, the capital owning class. Banks can loan out money and then invest it and bankers make money off of those investments. Corporations are contracts with the government where owners are treated in ways regular people are not. Capitalism is fundamentally designed for the rich to do differently unto others, then they wish to have done to themselves. And this is all direct and legal and built in. Then given the power the money gives them they can and do extend this even more.

And let me be clear on this. It is not that some bad capitalists do bad things. The system is founded on the idea that we will do unto others, NOT as we would have them do unto us. Certainly some capitalists take this further, but it is inherent in capitalism to go against the SErmon on the Mount.

That’s just it. Your definition of capitalism is different from mine. If one looks at a basic definition, then those small business owners are capitalists - they own the means of production and use it to make a profit. For example:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

Right but here’s what I notice. I am talking about the whole thing, and you are talking about one nice little piece from a Norman Rockwell painting. That’s propaganda. There are people running auto shops in communist china, that doesn’t make communism OK. People owned shops in Feudalism, that didn’t make it OK or Christian. Further you do not need to have capitalism to have auto shops, even where people own their own business. I am not saying that the auto shop is not a part of capitalist society, it is. So are parks and libraries and hospitals and car accidents and lots of other things. I am saying that that little nice and carefully chosen example can be found in other economic systems and it not the problem for Christians. We could look at some facet of an unjust war and find some example of something neutral or good that was a facet of it, but this does not offset the larger picture. Yeah, I lost weight when I got cancer and I had been overweight, still I think the disease was not a good one. Etc.

That’s a partial definition of capitalism focused only on some facets and ignoring the ones I mentioned, and it’s not a very accurate one in the areas it mentions.

No response to the Sermon on the Mount. No response to any of the facets of Capitalism I mentioned in my post. Voluntary exchange - in what reality does capitalism ONLY have that? Pick one piece of my post. Focus on that. Ignore anything that might take some work to respond to. Cherry pick one zoomed in image from somewhere in the capitalist West, which in fact could be found also in parts of the communist or fascist type regulated economy East. That limited definition of capitalism also allows for the power of the capitalists to withhold labor from work and thus livlihood - since it is what they call a free market - and to let the market determine things like the price of an apartment. IOW since there is no morals here, but market regulating, people can charge rents and do that are beyond the means of some of the working class. That does not fit with the SErmon on the Mount. These are not bad apple problems, but inherent in capitalism.

Amd even within Wiki’s distorted image of capitalism, you still have problems with the Sermon the Mount. In capitalism if you do not have what is considered the correct production ability you are on your own, outside, worth nothing and according to wikipedia, outside decision-making.

Fellas…

Capitalism is the total lack of regulation because no capitalist would consider it beneficial to himself, an individual, to argue for regulations that benefit society.

Once even one regulation has been conceded, it is no longer capitalism, but socialism since every regulation is only for the good of society; therefore, everyone is arguing the degree of socialism and how many regulations we ought to have. 99.99% of people are socialists.

Capitalism = zero regulation
Socialism = greater than zero, but less than 100% regulation
fascism/communism = 100% regulated.

Since both you guys have decided to ignore me, I’m curious which one of you will be first to ignore the other :smiley:

My money is on Phyllo since he’s next to bandy the ball and he’s been around longer (annoyed longer/less patience).

Phyllo, who will you talk to after you inevitably ignore everyone here? I mean, the only reason to talk is in disagreement as I can’t imagine what two people would discuss if they were in agreement with each other, but if you disagree, you invariably get pissed and not want to talk anymore. That seems a futile philosophy to hold… unless you’re depending on an eternal supply of new blood.

I’d like to see a debate where a resolution is reached. If that ever happens, I might print it out and frame it lol

I’m not ignoring you, I’m ignoring most of the ILP site. I read a few of the threads and I rarely post.

I saw that you posted in one of the threads about morality. Morality and ethics still interest me, but I have discussed it many times over the years and I don’t feel any desire to rehash old points. Therefore, I didn’t post in the thread.

A lot of the same topics come up all the time and a lot of the same arguments. I don’t see any reason to go there again and again.

I don’t know if I will respond to Karpel Tunnel. I read his posts (several times). I’m thinking about what he wrote.
I’m still not sure what to say about it. Honestly, it don’t seem reasonable to say that small business owners are not capitalists.

I also don’t appreciate his criticism of my posts. Maybe I want to figure out ‘capitalism’ before going on to discussing Christianity in general and the Sermon on the Mount in particular. Maybe I’m doing that outside of this thread, outside of posting responses to him.
But no, I’m supposed to being doing things in some special way which satisfies him.

I have a life outside of ILP. I talk to people IRL. I have other interests. There are many places to go on the internet.

I pretty tired of the arrogance and negativity. I remember an anti-natalism discussion where I was called “delusional” when I said that “life is good”. LOL.
The place is full of angry and depressed people. After a while, that drags you down. You gotta get away from it.

I’m more interested in ILP as a source of ideas rather than as a place for arguments and debates. For example, I had never heard of anti-natalism. I had never heard of some of the books which have come up in the discussions.

I don’t want to go through the effort of digging up the proof, but surely you remember specifically telling me that you’re not going to talk to me anymore, or something to that effect.

I can understand that.

Would both you guys agree that employers are probably more capitalistic (less economically social) than employees? Employees probably want laws and regulations that force the employer to be more economically social while the employer probably wants less laws and regulations that force him to do anything.

But then, by the same reasoning, the employer is a customer of his suppliers and therefore probably wants laws that protect his rights as well, but at the same time, he probably doesn’t want laws affecting his ability to take advantage of his customers.

That seems sensible to me. What do you think?

I don’t know what to say, but I do think the honesty is helpful.

Well, yes, but your same philosophy applies in those places as well. Taken to the extreme eventuality, you’ll have ignored everyone on earth if you could keep up with the birthrate.

I understand perfectly. I’m beatup every day I spend on message boards. No one ever quotes a post to say “Hey that’s great!”, nope, they say “Wow your stupid!” or they don’t say anything at all.

Yup. If I were really happy, I wouldn’t be here. I’m not looking for things when I’m content.

I suppose there is a time to listen and a time to talk. Talking about what I’ve heard is like digesting the ideas. After digestion, I get hungry again and go search for more ideas.

Christianity talks about equality and global brotherhood under God, funny how with Christians they do the exact opposite of everything they supposedly believe in.

“equality”?

“global brotherhood”?

“exact opposite”?

Whatever all that means. :confused:

Anti-capitalist. There’s also the whole treasures section of the sermon that goes against capital accumulation. IOW you should not have a system structure to create shored up treasures, since this is anti-Christian.

I’m not hanging on to my petty reactions and irritations.

But thanks for bringing it up.

Employers (or rather owners) have access to capital and are willing to use it to make a profit.

Sure, people want to take advantage of laws and want laws and regulations which favor them in general. Owners, employers and employees all want that. In a fair system, there is balance.

I understand that the criticism of capitalism is that it is unfair and that it allows those with money, the capitalists, to exploit those without money, the workers. But if you look at the history, there have been genuine and effective actions to reduce the unfairness. And the standard of living of the worker classes has risen substantially.

Not really. There may come a day when I don’t want write anything on ILP, but it doesn’t mean that I won’t be involved in another forum or IRL conversations. And as I said, that’s not necessarily something I will hang on to forever … I reevaluate all the time.

Reminds me of : “We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.” - Epictetus

In the most fair capitalist system capital can make money without labor, and does. A capitalist system would allow the taking away of livlihood of someone who does not do their physical labor well, enough hours, or at all. The capitalist need not labor, while the laborer must. This does not fit with do unto others. Of course many capitalists do also labor, but fundmentally, they accrue wealth, power, safety, better health care for their children and more AND can do this without labor. I expect you to exert effort and energy to get benefits and fundamentals for your life, but I do not expect this of myself. And I will pressure the system to enforce this difference in treatment. Though of course the laws within a capitalist nation mean this must be the case.

Ah, another Christian that hasn’t read the bible. I rest my case. :sunglasses:

One sentence, containing a few nebulous words, sums up your thinking.

Yeah, you can rest now.

And that explains the prosperity since FDR.

Yes but the mouth is so much bigger :smiley:

Plus I have 2 hands and 10 fingers so typing must be REALLY important :wink:

Prove otherwise, you won’t or can’t.