What if the Messiah showed up nowadays..

Skeptic

Haha… how depressing. Jesus having to be at reality TV shows to prove himself is funny (am bit sad too). I will have to agree with the rest of your post.

The whole point is… I don’t believe goodness has any value in society today. Good people are crushed by the system. There is no place for the good, you must have to have huge ambitions,… business ambitions… you need to generate money, you need to keep economy growing, there is not time for being good, only time for ‘progress’.

The tallest blade of grass is always the first to be cut by the lawnmower; however the roots still grow deep and strong… if ya’ get my metaphor

I’d say He would be pissed!

If it were a “second coming” he would be off to Rome to sort out a brothel called the Vatican, that has prostituted His morality for worldly gain. “What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, only to have God come along and destroy it?”

TV evangelism would be next. He’d shut them all down. While they all call Him the Antichrist.

Bush would also get his ass kicked, a long with all the secret service fools and Saddam.

Fundamentalism of all kinds would be next on the list. But this would take an act of God to fix, as they just don’t listen to anybody but the “voices” in their heads.

World poverty would be next… But at this point, when He asked for all our money to sort out the rest of the world we’d all tell Him to piss-off, as we love are “stuff” more then God, giving Him the finger. We’d then be looking for “Judas 2006” to sell him out and the UN would have Him up for crimes against the peace, and wanting to cause international unrest. Then the light show called Armageddon kicks off to the sound of an angelical commentator’s voice “Are you ready to be H U M B L E D!!!” followed with an Ozzy Osborne Christmas special introducing Ozzy’s Father, also known as The Dark Lord, Satan. But by this point we’ll all think we’ve gone completely insane and be calling out for Rosebud, Rosebud!

But really, I think the second coming has already come and gone! But we missed it, as we love the way it is more then the way it should be.

Pax Vitae.

This is very off-topic but I just wanted to correct a few things in Magius’ post. Sorry if you feel you are being targeted Magius but you hit a nerve with me and i just want to re-educate :wink: Ok disclaimer over…

I would accept that there are some similarities within the three books, most notably between the Torah and the Bible, but I would not call them the same religions. Christianity was a complete revision of the Old Jewish Law with the focus being on belief in Christ and the after-life rather than the present life. The rituals, beliefs, morals, practices are all very different in each religion.

Why do you consider it incomplete? Before the New Testament was written it was complete. You are only saying this from hindsight because you are aware of the New Testament but that does not mean it is a continuation of an unfinished book. What is it that makes it incomplete?

Ok let’s clear this up. The Hebrew Bible (Tanakh) is made up of the Torah, Neviim (prophets) and Khetuvim (Writings). The Christian Bible is made up of Tanakh + New Testament. They haven’t added anything to the previous Tanakh and so is not more detailed, it has only “added” on the New Testament. You already know about the Muhammad (p.b.u.h) thing.

feel free to correct

  • ben

actually, regarding the second coming of christ, i’ll recommend you guys to read a book in the bible - revelation. it describe how the coming of christ would be like. just a little insight, it’ll be grand coming. it’s unlikely anyone wouldn’t notice the phenomenon

That maybe true for Christianity, but this is not what Jesus was hoping to accomplish. I believe what he hoped to do was reform what was wrong with Judaism at that time.

I’m sure you know, the Sadducees only believe in the ‘Books of Law’ so did not believe in an afterlife. While the Pharisees beliefs, which I’ve been told are closer to current day Judaism believed in an afterlife. While I agree that Christians changed the focus from this life to the next, I feel this was done so people would think more closely about what they did now in this life, as they will also have to life in afterlife.

It can be seen today that most Christians only pay lip service to what Jesus taught. Which is what the Jews of the time were doing to the Law, according to what Jesus said.

The Christians also made Jesus more important then what he taught, which is wrong. As it’s only what Jesus taught that has any real value. Jesus was a moral philosopher, who used religion to get his message across. I hope I don’t cause offence when I say this: the Hebrews / Israelites / Jewish people would have slipped into obscurity if it wasn’t for their love of God. Even when they didn’t have a nation they had a God to identify them as a people. I feel this is what the Christians did with Jesus. They needed to have their own identity, so they centred themselves around Jesus who they saw as their king and then God. The New Testament for about 160 years was only an oral tradition, and like the fishing story the fish caught gets bigger with each telling.

The morality taught. I would say forgiveness is better in the longer run then, an eye for an eye, or the stoning of women. Knowledge evolves. We know more about the physical world today then we did 300 years ago. Knowledge grows with each generation building on previous generations. So the oldest Book would have the least knowledge, then next would have a little more, and so on. Even the way the Jewish people practiced their religion has changed.

Do you mind me asking what are the books of the Neviim (prophets) and Khetuvim (Writings). Are the Neviim, like Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah??? And Khetuvim, Proverbs, Lamentations??? As I would be interested in finding out more about them.

Pax Vitae

I’m am completely with Ben on this. (BTW, from previous posts, I noticed that you are spending some time in Israel. What are you doing over there?)

To Pax:

Concerning the Pharisees and the Sadduces. Yes, the Pharisees did believe in the afterlife, but that was not the common belief throughout the ages nor did they have any reason to believe that. The Torah left no indications of an afterlife. The belief came about for the same reason that Christians believe in the afterlife. It helps people to deal with the concept of death. The afterlife was not a belief of any of the original Hebrew tribes, either. God didn’t tell anyone about Heaven until later.:wink: Like Ben said, Judaism and Christianity are two completely different religions. Ask any Jewish scholar.

Exactly. It is believed that the Torah was later compiled with the Nevim and the Khetuvim by King Ezra. This was similar to the canonization of the Christian bible at the council of Carthage.

I agree. Paul completely changed Jesus’ message. If you compare the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Paul, you can easily see how Paul strayed from the original concepts that Jesus had developed. They should really call Christianity, “Paulianity”!

Throughout the development of Judaism and Christianity, historically we have seen it evolve to what it is today. The beliefs of Moses were not the same as the beliefs of Solomon, likewise with the beliefs of David, each of the Prophets, and then Jesus vs. the Gospels vs. Paul vs. Revelation. There is no consistency in belief, only new thoughts and interpretations and this will continue for centuries to come. People will always continue to believe what makes them happiest!

Ben,
being targeted is my thing, so don’t worry…

Ben stated:

Ben, my statements arise from a previous thread between myself and Skeptic, in was about how I met with a radical religious guy (in my university) who told me about the Islamic religion and the Qur’ans teachings. All my info comes from him and a few other people. I don’t claim the information to be correct. Skeptic came in afterward and stated that he thought I had an interesting experience and that what I had written about his speech to me being a summary of the religion. So Skeptic agreed with the fact that the Torah, Bible, and Qur’an is the same religion (which is what the guy told me). The guy I spoke to also echoed the same statement about the Bible being a revision by the Jews. Only that he said that they altered it without rights. He also said that the Torah was the first and most incomplete, followed by the Bible, and then the Qur’an which is the finished product.

Ben stated:

I’m nuetral on this, I did state in my previous post that I have not committed myself to anything and that I won’t know for sure until I READ THE QUR’AN! Don’t presume to tell me why I am saying anything, give me enough respect to defend my statements and answer your questions without you telling me why I said something.

One other person whom I spoke to that is a 3rd year religion major also confirmed the fact that the Torah, Bible, and the Qur’an are all the same religion. So I have two sources saying the same thing. BUT I AM NOT 100% CONVINCED THEY ARE RIGHT, JUST TELLING YOU WHAT THEY SAID. I WILL POST MY PERSONAL BELIEFS EITHER AFTER CHRISTMAS OR NOT UNTIL THE SUMMER WHEN I READ THE QUR’AN.

What’s your take?

Magius:
I think that your message some how got mixed up. You don’t believe that all three are the same religion, right? You were just saying that they all originate from the same roots, right?

The Muslims believe in the Quran / Hadith, the New Testament, and the Old Testament. In fact, Muslim means “the people of the book” refering the Torah. In fact, Muhammed even said that all people of the book, Muslims, Christians, and Jews are God’s people. They just don’t believe that Christ was God nor do they believe anything but the Quran to hold God’s word.

The Christians, believe that Muhammed was a false prophet and that the Quran and Hadith were false testaments. They also believe that the Jews and Muslims are not in accordance with the New Covenant (Jesus Christ) so they will suffer eternal damnation for their mistake.

The Jews believe that both Muhammed and Jesus were false prophets and do not accept either the New Testament or the Quran as anything but false writings.

So, they all believe in the same ‘Hebrew God’ but the religions are very different. I think that this is what you meant but it got misconstrued.

Skeptic stated:

I’m not saying anything other than I don’t have an opinion until I read the actual Qur’an. All I was saying is what people have told me so far. Whether that is true or not, is taken as a grain of sand for me. I will most definitely share my views once I read the actual source.

Thank you for your notes, they are well taken. But like everyone else that has shared their views with me, I will do my best to remember them but I won’t form an opinion of my own on the matter until I have read the Qur’an.

Hahaha. Pax_Vitae, I LOVED you post… I even laughed my arse off in the office.
Thanks for that… made my day.

Jesus was seen as such as were most of these people, Socrates and such vagrants…

Jesus would scare the shit out of people.

With his miracles?
He would end up on talkshows if he wasn’t careful.

Sorry. Remember Uri Geller and his miraculous magic deeds? Later on he was exposed as a fake. People are too skeptical now days, when fact and fiction are daily conflated
Besides, who has not seen the myriad fake jesuses, in white robes, carrying oversized crosses, placards earn g the world’s end?

Besides, he wouldn’t be that dumb this time around, having hopefully learned his lesson.Otherwise, instead of being proclaimed a messiah, he would be dis missed as another fool, even amid exhibitions of convincing miracles.

You mean like a miracle of blocking out the sun with an unexpected eclipse or making all people hover in the air simultaneously? I don’t think that he will go small again. Witnessing his abilities is going to be shocking and undeniable. A planet-wide earthquake might be fun.

In ‘The Brothers Karamazov’ Dostoevsky tells a story about a time when Christ returned during the Inquisition. It’s an awesome piece of literature that articulates the debate between the materialist and religious, human nature and freedom; a battle that was raging in Russia during the latter part of the 19th century.

THE SCENE: The book (The Brothers Karamazov) revolves around three brothers. The eldest is a no-hoper/loser (he’s not in this scene). The second brother is an intellectual and hardcore atheist and the third, youngest brother is a kind, loving and deeply religious young man who joins a monastery.

In this part of the book, the atheist brother is reciting a tale/poem to his novice monk brother. The story is about Jesus’ return to Earth (Spain) during the Inquisition: Jesus performs miracles, the people recognize him and flock around him but the Church authorities arrest him and sentence him to be burned alive the following day.

The video (below) begins when The Grand Inquisitor visits Jesus in his prison cell and tells Jesus that people urgently need material care, not supernatural promises. The Grand Inquisitor tells Jesus that the Church as taken up the good works he left undone and now he, Jesus, is no longer needed. Moreover, his return would interfere with the Church’s work so he must be put to death (again). In the last minutes of the story, Jesus responds and The Grand Inquisitor breaks.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om6HcUUa8DI[/youtube]
.

Perhaps, Perhaps. Things can only go on like this for a while, before some very unusual corrections (miracles?) to occur.

If God was real and I was wrong as an atheist (highly doubtful) the first thing I would ask is why such an entity has abandoned the world to constant devastation. In a particular misotheist fashion next I would call upon God’s execution for crimes against humanity itself.

Of course God isn’t real where all of this is just masturbatory imaginary fantasy but amusing nonetheless.

Um, what about David Koresh or L Ron Hubbard??