Transhuminism

Transhumanism is a radical anti human philosophy because it seems to want to alter and change human nature entirely whereby doing so we would simply stop being human entirely becoming something much else. You can see this with transhumanism concepts of cyborg augmentation, consciousness transference into computers, and even some of their more delusional writings of wanting to get rid of death itself for immortality.

I am a big critic of advancing technology, automation, and A.I. because most simply do not possess the knowledge of the kinds of horrendous consequences it will have on society going fourth in the long term future. It is clear to me that the more you make people dependent on technology the more they become slaves and this is never really a good thing for people that aspire towards independence. Also, the correlation between technological innovation and social inequality is a huge one.

Then there is the robotization or mechanization of the military, if you think the military police state is horrible enough now just wait until it all becomes automated. :wink:

Finally, there are so many numerous threats of artificial intelligence that any sensible philosopher should already know about them. Artificial intelligence could threaten the entire existence of civilization itself.

K: there are several assumptions in your post… one is the more dependent on technology people
become, the more they become it slaves… and that people do actually aspire toward
indendence… that transhumanism is actually anti-human… I don’t believe it is…
human nature is changed by technology regardless if it is implanted inside of us or
the technology of the Iphone or TV’s or self-driving cars… each piece of techology changes
human nature… human nature is impacted by the things around it…
and human nature is changed by the ism’s and ideologies around it and human nature
is changed by the enviroment around it… everything impacts human nature…
human nature is not this set thing in the universe that never moves…
we are different and profoundly different then our grandparents because
the technology we live with is different then the technology our grandparents
had… mind you, I am quite a bit older then you… My Grandparents, who I never
met, were born 1900 or earlier…my mom was born in 1935 and I was born in 1959…
so the technology my grandparents had is substantually different then what your
grandparents had…and that changes everything… Human nature is different because
of the events of the 20th century… the two World Wars and the depression and
the Holocaust and the cold war and 9/11… events/experiences change who we
are and changes our nature, both individually and collectivly…human nature
is not set in its ways… it changes and often changes dramatically depending
on the events/experiences ones has…individuall and/or collectivly…

Kropotkin

Transhumanists are pushing for technology to replace biology thus eliminating our species, humanity.

K: to a large degree, we already use technology to replace biology… once again,
I point out my use of a hearing aid to replace biology… and the species,
the human species, we are changing every single day in numerous ways…

I am different in many ways then people 500 year ago…
I am, and we are, taller then our forefathers, we live longer,
we are healthier, we are, I am guessing here but I believe we
are on the whole, smarter then people 500 years ago…

this is yet again another example of fear of techology
and science driving your thought process…as we evolve
from apes to human, we shall, if we exist long enough, shall
evolve into something else…the human being is not a fixed, set
creature that doesn’t change or evolve…I am different then my parents
and evolution is the reason for that…from two different individuals, comes
a third different individual…now because of the rules we have
inside of us, DNA, we cannot evolve randomly… we cannot for example,
grow wings… that is not programed into our DNA…the rules of being human
are fairly specific… if we don’t follow those rules or the rules are violated
in some fashion, we are no longer a human being and that my friends,
is ok… because we came from something else and we will become something
else… being human is just another step along the process of life…if you fear
losing your human nature, you just aren’t paying attention of evolution or
you don’t understand it… evolution is the process of change… that change is
not divinely organized… but random… even if we use technology to change
ourselves, it will lack organizing principles…that is how this works…

the road of becoming isn’t a planned or set road… but a road that
happens along the way… and the use of technology is something that
happens along the way, it is not the point of, but a tool of being human…

what you fear is really in your head and not the reality of the matter…
but that is constant of thinkers of your ilk… you react to your thinking,
instead of the reality of any given situation…for we are changing
and we will continue to change and we will push for and strive for change…
that is the true nature of being human… change and not the static
nature you want… human nature is change… learn to deal with that…

Kropotkin

Replacing human biology with metal and wire circuitry is not the natural change which evolution is, Peter. I’m pleased that technology could aid you Peter, but you are missing our point that transhumanists desire all biology to be replaced, upgraded, killing humanity essentially.

This robotic or automation revolution that is suppose to sweep over the planet is nothing like the industrial revolution. In the industrial revolution tools and machines changed in technology but the need of human labor was still ever present. A robotic or automation revolution revolving around transhumanism seeks to get rid of human labor altogether which is something very radically different entirely.

Your view of human nature is a childish naive one that believes in the original incorruptible position of natural goodness separate from civilization itself. Actual human nature is the complete opposite and it is why liberal politics incidentally is doomed to failure. Your idealism doesn’t understand human nature whatsoever. Human nature is a fixed thing in the world whether you accept that or not, how exactly has human nature changed as you would argue?

You of course completely ignore my mentioning of the dangers of artificial intelligence, no surprise there. You also won’t even mention a single instance of negative consequences regarding transhumanism as philosophy or ideology.

I actually wonder whether there is enough people left that care enough to take action against the negative effects of transhuminism. Taking action that works requires numbers of people and numbers of people who can actually make a difference is what is required to avoid a potentially monstrous situation. I see much apathy in people and I also see much defeatist attitudes in people. I believe people could make a difference and see technology stay in its place as useful but I have my doubts that the human race generally speaking has the backbone to make a difference, a difference that could save our humanity.

Perhaps I am being a little defeatist.

:-k

Hardly different at all. The same set of emotions, cognition types, physical needs and physiological processes. Transhumans cannot wait to replace all flesh, to modify at a pace evolution never follows AND based on ideas, rather than gradual changes adjusting individuals and the species to the environment. There is a great hatred of the human body in transhumanism. It is seen as flawed even when healthy. This is not hearing aids to replace a damaged organ. This is deciding that the entire thing, including neuronal and endocrine systems, the very cells, should be replaced by nanotech made structures made from materials not currently in bodies. DN’A itself will be eliminated in the name of immortality.

Wearing lipstick and getting those fake, bloated not able to move as well as normal lips - which interferes with the experience of emotions- are not quantitatively different, they are qualitatively different. and that is nothing compared to the changes the transhumanists with their hatred of organic life are after.

The do not like humans. The hatred of human emotions underlying the radical psychotropic dulling of emotions through psychiatric over precription and pathologizing of human reactions to current society - along with not or less pernicious uses of medications like that- is a baby step in the direction transhumanists want to go. And precisely the same kinds of corporate idiocy and hubris will go into the transformation that go into the makeovers of depressed middle aged women on those plastic surgery reality shows.

It will be the idiocy of the cane toad solution in Australia but focused on eliminating homo sapiens.

We will not be DNA based life forms gradually changing into other social mammals. It will be the end of homo sapiens and probably the end of all social mammals, all being replaced by efficient, powerful not organic, not DNA based machinations.

And once transformed those new entities will not have the neuro-endocrine systems to be able to even know or feel if it was a good idea. But I am sure they will be able to crush concrete blocks and leap tall buildings and learn Japanese in an hour.

Fucking accessorizing our no longer ourselves like when we buy cars.

Dumb short cut self hatred couched as progress.

K: I didn’t respond to AI for the simple reason, I don’t know how the entire AI revolution
will play out… I cannot comment on something that hasn’t happened yet… and the same
for transhumanism… I simply don’t know how it is going to play out…and thus cannot comment
on it…

Kropotkin

K: I have notice when someone of your ilk has someone that they disagree with,
the other person hates themselves and hate america and hates human beings…
it always hate with you people… hate, hate, hate and then some more hate…don’t
you get tired of the hate…

I am different in many ways over someone who lived 500 years ago…
as I have pointed out, I am healthier and taller and smarter and better
educated then the average person of 500 years ago…my responses to events
is different because the events and experiences I have are vastly different
then someone had 500 years ago…we have to change and adapt to our changing
conditions of life… that is the basis of evolution… we change and adapt to the
ever changing enviroment… here it doesn’t necessarily mean are bodies are
changing and adapting… although that is true also…check out the human
changes that has happened since the change in diet that we have had since
the modern age began…People in Japan for example, since their diet has been
to a point modernize, they have grown taller and heavier…we are far more likely
to have such diet issues as gout and diabetes because of our diet over 500 years ago,
where they were far more likely to suffer from malnutrtion and actual starvation…

do we still hate and love and have anger issues, of course… but for example read
poetry from 500 years ago and see how they view love… it is quite different then
the way we view it today…look at the values they valued for example, chivalry…
they highly valued chivalry… we don’t… our basic values system is different
from 500 years ago…the times, events, experiences, institutions in use help, in part,
to create the idea of human nature and what is human nature at that point in time…

my basic human nature is different today then it was when I was a child…
it changed… it is not the same and that is true of you too and everyone…

Kropotkin

One wonders if he is still human enough to have any sentimental attachment to his daughter’s face. In any case, when this kind of insect consciousness homonid gets uploaded into his incredibly powerful body and has a mind enhanced by AIs, he sure as shit is not going to have any sentimental attachment to our inefficient mammalian bodies and our social mamman minds and ways of relating. And we will not be strong enough to stop his kinds effectivizing of all that wasted meat. They are the ultimate life haters, prolonging themselves.

I agree. How do we join forces and stop their madness?

I don’t think it is inevitable. If we look at some of the everyday atrocities of plastic surgery, which a significant minority notices, I think we can imagine that when some of the coming alterations, which will be more total, start happening the issues will be debated and more questioning will take place. But the only how I can think of is to keep reacting. I think more people notice immobile puffy, no longer quite human lips and say nothing, even to close friends - out of guilt, out of thinking 'hey it’s doctors doing it so who am I…, to pressure of cultural norms, to not trusting their intuition that it is like cutting or self-harm. So all we can do is respond, not allowing those factors to stop us.

K: and once again, missing the point…they aren’t “life haters”… on the contraire…
they want what people seem to want ( I don’t, but hay, I’m weird) People
want eternal life… see religions which promise eternal life at the side of god
or in the bowels of hell and one none religious method of achieving the goal
of eternal life is via technology…they don’t hate life if they want to prolong
life forever…I had to look up this Tim Cannon… and he has tech that is not
really any different then a tatoo and that is really the point here…

we are just at the begining of this use of technology and we don’t know
where exactly it is going to go…to panic or to have the fear that
Wendy and Karpel have about this is rather premature…and as the
article in Wiki said at this point, the type of placement of this sort
of technology is against the law and medical types won’t engage in this
type of body enhancement in the U.S for fear of losing their license…
so I won’t engage in the fear mongering that that wendy and karpel seem
to enjoy…

Kropotkin

Tim doesn’t wish to have any part of his body remain human, Peter, he stated that in his quote. It’s not the technology that is the problem, it’s the dumb fucking people who can’t understand the difference between being a robot and being a human being, the morons who don’t see that kind of radical transformation as a problem for human survival. You don’t see the psychosis in becoming a robot as a problem do you Peter?

Is there already an official movement against transhumanism? I just Googled anti transhumanism and anti transhumanist groups and only three articles against transhumanism popped up in eleven pages of one search. Two of the three were discussing a recent release of The Anti-Transhumanist Manifesto http://privacysurgeon.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Human-manifesto_26_short-1.pdf

Thanks for the link! I think the counter-movement is more piecemeal. Like negative reactions to specific transhumanisms - gene modification, implants, whatever. Even the word transhumanism is not known by most people so it is hard to be in the counter movement. And of course there are gray areas where a technology is actually helping a problem - fixing hairlips is one thing, turning women into these hard-faced dolls another. I use plastic surgery as an example since it is now normal. It need not be transhumanism, but there are aspect of it that are first stages. Just as the modern, completely accepted, addiction to cellphone use is an early stage of transhumanism. One can have a cellphone and not be addicted. But many people - it is like smoking was in the 40s-60s - are radically addicted, but since it is a norm, they do not even realize it. And they are, to some degree dehumanized, like any full time addiction will do.

Anyway I am not sure how to raise awareness that there is an underlying pattern that could be called transhumanism, give people a sense of the common threads, so they recognize the coming variety of forms of it.

K: they are trying to extend human survival via technology…

ok, try this, what does it mean to be human?

simple enough…what does it mean to be a human being?

Kropotkin

What does it mean, Peter, since you have to ask?

when you use botox in the face you reduce facial mobility. Reduced facial mobility reduces one’s ability to know one’s own emotions. Many of the current plastic surgery interventions for aesthetic reasons reduce facial mobility. They make the person, who is a specific kind of social mammal, less human, since they are less keyed in to social mammalian skills and interactions. it’s a small difference. Above you have a person who doesn’t give a shit if he is transformed into a Mars Rover. Must we really connect the dots for you? There is a part of technocrat society as mediated by corporations and the governments they control, that does not give a shit about the side effects and losses of humanity. The way Amazon treats its workers, for example, effectivizing all their movements to the point that they are like robots. The corporations do not care about how their products reduce the humanity of people and will market their products, interventions, based on their improvements, what they improve. They will control the way research is presented to the public. They will downplay and marginilize criticisms, which will be easier to push away. We can see the flatter less wrinkled face of the botoxed person, but the subtle losses of emotional self’awareness are harder to track, harder to quantify and more complicated to explain to the audience. People, unfortunately, play into this since they are trained to and really in some ways choose to be creatures who are guided by marketing. They like toys that make them feel powerful - look at the car marketing industry or the weapon industry. Transhumanism is basically as if Monsanto gets to fully focus on all facets of humans. Monsanto manages to play their role as a corporation feeding the poor, developing new beneficial technologies, increasing our ability to harvest from nature. If you look at what actually happens, say in Argentina, when Monsanto’s products become widespread, we do not find people being economically helped and we find food products that create health probems, damaged land and workers. Nevertheless Monsanto has the power to marginalize critique and control its own oversight through lobbying and revolving door employment in exchange with government. It will be forces like them that will market Transhumanism. A general problem however is even more important. Most academic people tend to think that if you cannot easily track an effect, it does not exist. They do not word it this way, but that is how they function in the world. This cripples them when they look at something like Transhumanism. They rarely ever consider the kinds of side effects I mentioned in regard to Botox. Why? Because they identify with the professional technocrats who came up with these processes and products. They are expert lovers, and identify with technocrats as something different from the religious experts. So if the technocrats present themselves as coming from science and rationality and package their products in those terms, academics are often completely unable to react negatively precisely because they, unconsciously, do not want to be seen as anything like religious people or people they deem irrational. And they will not see the anti’life outlook and hatred of humanity that the transhuman project is based on. They may notice it when it is presented by some stiff hero in a right wing tinged action film starring Bruce Willis or whoever the version is nowadays. Suddenly they notice the cardboard ideas of what a person is. But only when it comes with a right wing flag on it. When cardboard versions of what humans are come from the technocrats they are completely crippled to even notice it, because academics are trained to see technology as neutral and specifically not Abrahamist, and like most people, educated or not, left or right, they love a short cut. And the marketers know that people love short cuts and won’t look too carefully at all that is being bypassed. Look at how few educated people can see the incredible nuttiness of psychiatry and the psychopharmacological approachs to making us feel good or less bad. They may note the occasional excess, but they cannot see the breadth and depth of the problem there. The short cuts are cool, the academics cannot really look at technocrats speaking science babble - even when a few hard scientists, whose voices get marginalized, can - and we reduce our humanity through those wildly overprescribed pills. Transhumanism is not on the way, it is here. I can already hear the educated american saying, Oh, so you want to take pills away from Schizophrenics, just showing how little they understand about what is going on.

I pass them on the sidewalk, head down facing their cellphones, even if they are walking with the love of their life, texting or surfing, cannot put that damn thing down – access to all that wonderful information, the technocrats promise us – he lips puffy and stiff from the operation, in her blood anti-anxiety psychotropics taking the edge off and helping her stifle her limbic system, since it is so heavily pathologized - though often even education, or perhaps especially educated people, do not notice this pathologization because it comes from supposedly scientific people. She’s an addict with a dampened emotional life. She’s an early stage transhuman. And sure, the dreams of the transhumans sound more profound, but just as many, even educated people, do not have the tools to see what is already happening, the people bringing in Transhumanism also lack the tools, have already got a strangehold on their own limbic systems, have a detailing-their-car view of human development and are often on the Aspberger’s end of the spectrum so have less able to focus on social mammal skills and being-in-the-world side effects of their final solution.

So while the average post-humans will be carboard figures, the rich, getting better versions, will be hyped up, powerful creatures with limited limbic system processes, if any, and those who have opted out will have to deal with them. Think the superrich in some Latin American country now and how they relate to the poor, notched up a couple orders of magnitude in power difference via the wonders of technology. Sociopath subdeities.

As a lefty you no doubt have concerns about the gap between the rich and the poor - transhumanism will make today’s gap look like nitpicking. And this is not a concession that the rich will simply have the advantages of tranhuman tech, they will have the disadvantages, but will be lacking the human organic structures to even feel this. A taste of the problem can be found in the marginalized evidence that social media/smartphone use is reducing empathy, especially in children (by damaging their training in reading faces and tone of voice (mirror neuron etc.), and in fact isolating people. Facebook execs have actually come out and admitted 1) they used the most advanced neuroscience and cognitive psychology to design facebook to be addictive. These same people will design the coming transhuman technologies and while it is all peachy that some have regretted what they did, it is too late for this regret to affect their millions and the affects of their choices.

You seemed surprised that two social mammals - Wendy and I - see people who no longer want to be this, trying to develop widespread technology to do this, who will be in positions to sell this, in our current world where the limbic system is pathologized already, as reacting oddly, irrationally. When much of what we hold dear, as social mammals, is going to be weeded out in the software and hardware of transhumanism, just as it is being weeded out now, less effectively through many things including the examples I mentioned above. We are not reacting oddly. We notice the disinterest at best and hatred at worst of the limbic system, emotions, and other ‘obstacles’ to true efficiency and power, inherent in Transhumanism, and we notice the ways in which this hatred is already present. If I thought a few rich people would uppgrade themselves away from being human, I could give a shit. But like nanotech, gene tech and AI, transhumanism is a threat to the continued existence of social mammals on the planet.