…coz I ain’t the fickle kind, Gib… flaky, but never fickle. 
I’ll have a read of your findings later and get back to you… there’s a lot to read. 
You may not like what I am saying here but you have been doing this now for five years, gib. Why not just go to AA meetings to get help and get some serious therapy? It does work. But you have to do the work. You may not think that it does but what you have been doing - does that work? Has that made you clean and sober?
I do not get this journey into nowhere which you are on here. You just go around in circles playing games with your life and your health.
You have had five years of doing the same thing, over and over again!!!
You may already have written a very interesting book by now and had it published. But you choose to spend your energy in this way.
Perhaps I am the only one in here who does not, but I find nothing interesting about what you are writing.
…and real love struggles and works hard and transcends and sacrifices. Everything else is just sentimentality…or gross self- love.
Arc, do you know what the relapse rate is for those who go to rehab centers and attend AA meetings? 90%. You know why? Because at the end of the day, they can’t really say they did it themselves. Someone intervened. I won’t have that problem.
The answers to your questions are in my post. If you think these past five years have just been repeated attempts at the same thing, you’re gravely mistaken. I have a strange suspicion you only skimmed through what I wrote.
And I think you misspoke: I think you do find it interesting, you’re just appalled at it.
I can’t wait to see the look on your face when I tell you after July 1 that I’m 100% clean and sober. ← Thanks for the extra bit of motivation.
I have had the pleasure of talking with You off and on, and honestly my recollection fails me as to what we were discussing.
But I sympathise and it is because I agree with what You’re saying, especially because I have gone through it, and if I may offer some correlative story with what I have gone through. Its quite similar really.
Back about 15 years ago, many things happened to upset the my applecart my mother , best friend, my mother in law, followed by my son all passed.
Then I got back on the alcohol and went to work and they smelled it on my breath. The management gave me an ultimatum, either go to rehab. or, go look for another another job.
For me , an obsessive person, this became a nightmare, I was torn because I was totally addicted, and decided to go.
It was a win win experience and I haven’t been 100 per cent clean.
I’m glad because without a few my creative life would drive up in a minute. What I got out of the six months, was that I cut down to managed levels without adding the added dissappointment of having to deal with another guilt to my already rather hefty collection, of lacking willpower. Other fuolts I kicked in the behind are a little personal to write about about, but they seal with philanderinf and insincerity.
I’ve become more open, less afraid of what others think. and that is giving me much more serenity.I’ve come to realize, that is have to start to forgive myself more, because in a large part drinking helps to alley guilt, even the guilt and shame attached to diminished lack of social skills.
So when drinking out of lack of social skilla becomes becomes another guilt to worry about, it doesn’t take a rocket rocket scientist to begin to see where this is heading
So what I did was not to -continue later my wife needs some help-
Back- but only for a second because she wants me to take her out for dinner, so I will leave this unfinished for now, .
Hopefully be back afterwards , but a parting shot, I read)u do want to get to know You better so that we can talk about it.
So of You are open to it, I would like to engage Your interest in pursuing it, and don’t worry, when I am in a hurry, my writing is full of errors, but will go back and try also to edit it
gib,
So the above is to be your explanation for the last five years, gib?
If those statistics ARE real, so what?! Many fail then they pick their selves up and begin again. It all depends on just how serious and determined they are to turn their lives around, to get off all of that poison, and how much they value their selves and their loved ones.
I am not grasping what you are saying here. Did what themselves? Have a relapse or manage to stay sober?
No one gets sober and stays sober by themselves. They need a lot of help and support.
Many who have a relapse always manage to blame it on others even though it can expected that there can be a relapse.
Appalled may be too strong a word here, gib and I do not really find it interesting. What I question though is how you can make of yourself a guinea pig. Do you ever wonder looking back on the last five years where you might be right now if you had done things differently?
Have you looked ahead a year or two or three, et cetera, and wonder where you might be then if you continue down the same road …or if you take, let’s say, the road less traveled for you?
But this is the question. Will I even believe you based on the last five years? But it really is not necessary if I believe you. What is important is you knowing that you did it.
But then where do you go from there?
There is a reason why people say “One Day at a Time”. Sometimes it is “One Hour at a Time”.
You are quite welcome, gib.
I have a lot of experience with alcoholism as I am the adult child of an alcoholic. Trust me when I say this, I know their ins and outs, I know their laziness and their ways of denial. I know their self-pity which is capable of sending their children into the depths of the abyss. I can remember a moment in time, one specific night, when her drunkenness was so terrible and affected me so badly that it actually made me begin to understand, to see, to experience, just how a person can want to commit suicide though I cannot ever see myself doing that. It took me quite a while to realize how destructive and damaging that experience is to a child and to the adult child and to their psyche.
My mother was very manipulative and very controlling. Everything negative which happened within her life and caused her to drink even more was my fault. The strange thing was that I chose to believe her until I began to wake up and took a good long hard look at her and also myself.
My mother was an alcoholic until the day she died. She did not need AA according to her. She was not an alcoholic and she was far too good for those people. She loved me so much, according to her, but basically she would say this to me when she was slobberingly drunk. Do you have any idea what it is like for a young adult woman who has to face the human being who gave birth to her while she is slobberingly drunk and crying in her liquor? Do you have any idea what it is like to go looking for this alcoholic in bars in order to bring her safely home?
So I say to you, gib, your welcome. The alcoholic may suffer but not as much as the children do.
Remember that.
I believe you responded to my comment in Gloominary’s thread.
Feel free to PM me with whatever stories you want, Meno… or lay them out here. 
Glad I’m not married.
Don’t worry about editting. I can generally understand what you’re saying (except what’s philanderinf?). I’m a completely open book as you seem to be. We can engage on this topic, or any topic, any time you wish.
Arc, you’re next. 
Yeah, or… they can do what I’m doing.
Usually, the victim mentallity is what leads to relapse in the first place. I don’t have a victim mentality.
Now that’s hardly fair, Arc. I know you’re always eager to judge, but let’s wait 'til after July 1 to ask these questions. I’m actually right on schedule.
What the hell is that supposed to mean… where do I go from there? What, am I supposed to regret that I did it on my own according rather than go to rehab/AA? Am I supposed to reflect on the hollowness of my approach?
So this being-an-asshole-to-everyone thing isn’t panning out so well. Most of you, I enjoy treating like shit, but then on occasion, I rip into someone whom I thereafter regret ripping into, someone like Meno_. I then get this really strange feeling that I’m not that familiar with… what is it called again? Oh yeah, guilt. I feel guilty. So I tell you all what… I’m just gonna treat you like shit if I feel like, or not if I don’t, but I’m not gonna put a concerted effort into it either way.
I think an alcohol only diet makes me down right miserable. Maybe it should have been a negative.
Why worry about it, even…?
Ever think that if your body craves it then it might be healthy at times?
Because, Mags, because… just because…
No.
You’re wrong.
…he’s being strong/exercising his willpower.
Eternal,
I’m aware of the studies that show that a glass a wine or a beer once a day is actually good for your health, but I don’t think that’s what you’re talking about; you’re talking about desires, cravings, and the only sense in which the satisfaction of those is good for you is when they’re not corrupt. Drugs corrupt your brain. They corrupt the centers for cravings and desires, detaching them from healthy things and re-attaching them to unhealthy things. So no, I don’t take my desires and cravings as necessarily indications of something healthy.
And BTW, drinking alcohol is the equivalent of drinking gasoline.
gib,
Just a question here or maybe two.
Did you at any time while you were reading my long text, the one which you responded to with a (:eusa-violin:), gain any kind of thought, insight, realization, et cetera, from my words or was your only response and reaction really only that of one playing the violin?
What do you believe or feel was the reason for that lack if you indeed received nothing from it?
The minute I realized you were speaking out of ignorance, I went into trolling mode. is trolling. It’s when I stop taking the other person seriously and start playing games instead.
But I did get something out of it; I got that you like to generalize:
You like to take your experience of your alcoholic mother and generalize to all alcoholic parents.
I am nothing like your mother… not remotely.
For example:
I would never say anything like that to my kids, or make them feel they are to blame for my own faults. In fact, I have made a promise to them both to quit drinking and doing drugs July 1 of this year. I have my kids listed as my #1 reason for quitting. Seriously, I have list; it’s stuck to the fridge with a magnet; it keeps growing (incidentally, I have: “shove it in Arc’s face” on there 
).
And just this here…
…was pure insulting. ^ That’s what clued me in that you have absolutely, positively, indubitably… NO idea what I’m doing in this thread or how this whole procedure works… even though I made it crystal clear at several points throughout this thread. But since it’s so uninteresting to you, I guess you don’t bother reading… but of course, you’re still totally qualified to post your arrogant rant about how I’m just like your alcoholic mother because, you know, all alcoholics are the same. No, no, Arc, don’t bother reading, don’t bother understanding, but please do tell us your expert opinion on my psychology and problems with addiction.
I am not seeing any sign in my children that they are suffering any trauma or hardship; they are both doing well in school, they have a healthy social life with their peers, they have big grins on their faces as they run to meet me on my weekends with them. In fact, my daughter occasionally reminds me that she wants to live with me (and I’m working towards that). My son tells me: “daddy’s nice; mommy’s mean” (I try to discourage him from talking about his mother that way, but…). Everybody who knows me thinks I’m an awesome dad. Would a dead beat parent write this for his son on his 7th birthday? Did your mother ever do anything like that for you?
My son does suffer anger management problems, and we’re seeing a child psychologist, but my x and I both agree that he was like that since he was a few days old. 7:00 PM was the witching hour for him. It was like clock work. As soon as 7:00 PM rolled around, he became completely inconsolable (it wasn’t exactly at 7:00 PM, but after 7:00 PM, the first thing to upset him would set him off on a non-stop crying marathon that only ended once he managed to fall asleep). As he grew to a toddler, young child, and now 7 years old, this inconsolable mood evolved into problems with letting things that upset him go, things that would anger him (like not getting a second dessert 
). He gets angry at the ordinary things that ordinary kids get angry at, but ever since he was an infant, he did not have the skill of letting it go. He’s learning that skill now, and in fact seems to be better at it when he’s with me during one-on-one time than with his mother or his sister.
^ I really don’t think the alcohol or the drugs are the crux of the problem here.
But in any case, Arc, if you want me to gain something from your rant, it might help if you first understood why these past five years have not just been a series of failed attempts. If you want to say I’m an egoist prick who refuses to swallow his pride, you may be onto something, but I doubt you’d understand half the reasons why that’s true.
gib,
How was I speaking out of ignorance according to you?
Granted, I cannot be a fly on the wall to see how you and your children relate to one another; how “sober” for lack of a better word you are when you are with them. So, no, I can have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
I pretty much figure that your wife would not turn over her and your children to you if you were not at that time sober. I hope not.
Yes, you are pretty good at playing the games, gib. That is why you are STILL HERE and waiting for July 1st.
My reason for relating that part of my story to you was so you might gain some insight or understanding into the mind and heart of someone who has had to deal with alcoholism, especially any child. There was no ranting whatsoever going on there, gib. I will admit that by doing that I did make myself somewhat vulnerable. Children who grow up with alcoholics or drug addicts ( a double dose there) do have scars which are capable of opening up.
You simply dismissed what I had to tell you and quite frankly I am not sure if that is not a symptom of your disease. It is a disease you know.
Arcturus Descending
No gib, that is not a generalization. The above is a fact. I had the experience and many many have had the same experience. Perhaps your children have not. I have no idea how often you see them so hopefully they have not really been so touched by your way of life. Perhaps when you do see them, you are sober; otherwise, I am not so sure your wife would allow it.
But I do know that when an alcoholic has sober moments (not as a reformed alcoholic) he/she is struggling.
Are you so sure that your addictions do not touch your children in any way?
I do not mean to be harsh here but you are addicted to both alcohol and drugs. I would suggest that you are capable of being very much like her at times.
Could I be wrong…maybe…but I do not think so.
I hope that that is true.
By July 1st? On July 1st? Why the wait? Why the postponement? Why not NOW?
Your children are how old now? Why were they not on that list before?
That is a very good incentive to quit, gib, and I hope that it really works BUT what are you going to do to make sure that it works this time? As I said, your children have been around you for quite some time now.
For the sake of your children and yourself, I certainly would not mind being wrong.
You took it as an insult. Why is that? It was meant as a challenge though and it is FACT.
After 5 years and perhaps more of “off and on” you are still treating yourself like a guinea pig and postponing the inevitable.
But it is not working, is it gib. Even now you are promising your children that come July 1st you are giving up alcohol and drugs.
How do you plan to do this? Are you going to AA meetings?
If it were that easy to just STOP by hasn’t it happened in all of this time?
Psychically speaking, they are for the most part. Only the histories and experiences may differ.
I am happy to hear that. Ask yourself a question. If your children lived with you, would you be responding in the same way?
.
So you plan to go to AA and to get help? If I were a judge, after having read this thread, I would not be giving custody of your daughter to you. Harsh again I know. I am a mean horrible person. I judge you. I have absolutely no sense of who you are. My observations are completely off the mark where you are concerned.
Only you can know for sure how drunk or stoned you are if you are which you must be since you promised your children that there would be no more of that come July 1st.
Yes that is a beautiful gift to give your child. A lot of time, energy and love went into it. At the same time, there is a gift which is far more valuable and meaningful, a gift which as your children get older, would/will appreciate far more/value far more. Your sobriety. A lot of time, energy, struggle and love will go into gaining sobriety too. Which do you think is the greater gift?
lol No, my mother was not a writer. She did have her moments which would eventually turn to dust because she could not, would not, give me the one thing which I would have valued more than anything - a sober Mom. My mother was more intent on living her life her way, even though it was miserable, highly destructive and caused pain all around.
I can greatly admire men and women who had strong addictions but got help for them, turning their life around. It takes a lot of honesty, fortitude, struggle and inner strength to overcome things like that. It also takes the right kind of self-love and self-caring.
So again, what do you consider would be the greatest gift which you could give to your son - and to your daughter?
You might have to do a lot of reading to figure that one out or talk to people who would know about it. It may be a biblical saying but remember the one - "The sins of the parents are visited upon the children? But my question to you would be: Why are you so eager to dismiss that possibility?
When I use the word “sins” I am not putting a guilt trip on you. I am talking about genes, heredity and how alcoholism and drug addiction can affect children both physically and psychically and emotionally. You also know how and why your own journey into them took place.
But the real bottom line there, at least for me, is that your son is getting help.
Would I be wrong in saying that your meaning here is that you have also had successes?
I am sorry but I just cannot see it that way. Your whole purposes is to stop the drinking and taking of drugs, or am I wrong?
Has it been in some way a scientific experiment with you?
If that is the case, you are not just playing with your own life but with that of your children.
That sounds like it just might be more of an excuse than an explanation but I may be wrong in my thought. The men and women who eventually gave up that mindset or mentality are the ones who are now the reformed alcoholics who never touched another drink although at times they may have dearly wanted one.
None of what I have written in here is a rant and I can see that for the most part it is falling on deaf ears, at least I think that it is…another symptom.
I really hope that this time is going to be it for you gib but thinking and hoping for it is not doing it. There is no magic in that…just magical thinking.
Arc, you’re still speaking out of ignorance and you’re still generalizing. Sounds like you’re pretty sure of your opinion, so I think it would be a waste of my time to argue with you about that.
I’m just going to respond to a few things you said:
Because this was you speaking out of ignorance. You’re speaking as though I’ve been trying to get off the drugs and alcohol these past 5 years, and that each 2 month stint was a failure. As I said before, this is not what these 2 month stints were, and you would know that if you read the thread before making that comment. The insult is you being critical without first bothering to understand (because it’s too uninteresting) what you’re being critical about.
Also, I’m conditioning myself to be extra sensitive to criticisms/attacks on my approach, and I’m doing it on purpose. I’m conditioning myself to take pride in my approach, to put all my value into it (that’s why it will work), which therefore means that criticisms/attacks against it are going to sting more. It’s called the migration of value. I talked about it above. You can search it.
You’ve brought this up before, the guinea pig analogy. You talk about it as if it’s a bad thing. I don’t get it. Experimentation is what we do to learn. Treating myself as a guinea pig teaching me about myself, helps me grow.
Ok, this is probably a good spot to explain, in a nut shell, what’s been going on these past 5 years… at least I’ll try.
Have a look at this chart:
Notice a pattern? Notice how each 2 month stint is a different combination of the three main drug categories I consider to be a problem for me? Except for the first two. The second one (Aug. 2014 to Oct. 2014) was just a repeat of the first one because I figured I needed to do it again. To go through all 7 combination (plus a repeat of the first)–that is, all 2 month stints with breaks in between–has taken 5 years. This was on purpose. I expected from the very beginning that the whole thing would take 5 years (and I told my x this). And I’m right on schedule. Each 2 month stint was a resounding success. Why? Because the goal was not to get off the drugs and alcohol right then and there; the goal was to get off the drugs and alcohol (or some combination thereof) just for those two months… and I never fell off the horse once. They were successes. The whole thing, so far, is a success.
July 1 will work because it’s not just another 2 month stint. It’s the actual formal decision I’ve made for myself. Now that I’ve gone through all combinations via these 2 month stints with breaks in between, I’m ready to actually make this move. It won’t be just the next attempt in a series of failed attempts, it’ll be the first attempt.
In fact, I even wrote this above: I said that I’m actually disappointed in the results. Life tends to be dull and boring, and sometimes depressing, off the drugs and alcohol. I learned that you can’t just find a quick substitute for the drugs, at least not within 2 months. But then why am I still committed to quitting July 1? In the beginning, I told myself I needed these 2 month experiments in order to give myself some hands-on experiences with sobriety–that is, in order to convince myself a drug and alcohol free life is indeed better. You would think, then, that if I’m now disappointed in the results, I should be deciding not to quit. So why am I deciding otherwise? Because this whole thing worked. My decision, and desire, to quit is no longer dependent on the results of these experiments. The migration of value that I performed on myself these past 5 years has made it so that I actually value quitting regardless of the results of these experiments. In other words, the experiments were only a surface mechanism, something to get the ball rolling, but underneath the surface (in a sort of semi-conscious state, I suppose) I’ve been working on changing my values such that I don’t need to conduct these experiments in order to justify quitting. This is what really makes it work, investing all my value into quitting. When you’re stubborn like I am, you have to play tricks on yourself in order to let go of unhealthy attachments. I’m in a state of mind now where it’s just a matter of executing the decision, whereas 5 years ago, I was too stubborn to even consider it without positive results from my experiments. By the sounds of it, your mother didn’t even want to try sobriety, not even for 2 months. I’m in a totally different state of mind, thanks to these past 5 years, than your mother ever was.
^ This is what I’ve been explaining throughout this thread, just not so succinctly.
And to answer your question about what I’m going to do to make this decision stick (besides will power and commitment), let me quote myself:
And I’m gonna apologize. Sorry for the violin. You were putting yourself out there, becoming vulnerable like you said, tell us something that would normally be private, and I rudely dismissed it with the little violin guy. I’m sorry. I hereby validate you.
No. He’s being weak in expressing a lie. When a body craves something, it can be as simple as just a bad addiction. However, in a reality where everything stems from nature and is natural, the very same thing that is poison in large amounts is healing and therapy when moderated. Even excess, in moderation, is readily good medicine. And, this should be taken with some grain of ‘obviously, we all indulge in excess before we get to the point of being able to moderate.’ And that should be a ‘DUH’, that should be an ‘of course, this is obvious’, if not for how stupid we all have been.
Now, obviously, I do say ‘we all’ for a reason, because if it were easy for me to say all that I have said, then you forget the years of seeing me refine what I say and how I say it. Obviously took effort, obviously needed to be pointed out for how obvious it is for the obvious problem of erratic thought processes, all that I did while getting high on meth, high on pot, living homeless, under attack and fighting, I managed to keep my mind, to some extent becoming healthier under it all than I had been my entire life, due to perception, due to waking up, due to wanting to live instead of wanting to die, of fighting to get out of negativity and depression… all the self-help book and seminars with douche-bags prescribed medicine.
The fact that if your body craves it, then it must, to some extent be healthy. They say fast food isnt healthy for the grease, but then why do we have it at all? Unhealthy eating? Due to what, unhealthy living? What is healthy living and why do completely healthy people still have as much danger from dropping dead? And shouldn’t that be worried about more than the obviously unhealthy? Vegetables aren’t much healthier for you than meat; they can cause gas, health problems just the same. Meat being just as healthy, not less or more. And, what are you supplementing for your lack of drugs and alcohol? You’re not just going without without having a supplementary addiction that could be just as harmful if not more. And, if youre struggling with continued ‘withdrawal attacks’ etc., shouldnt you be wondering to some extent about, ‘what if that bastard is right and drugs and alcohol are, to some extent, healthy? Maybe not for me, I might be healthier without them for supplementing other things in my life for addictions, but they could still be healthy for other people.’
And, realistically, healthy or not for people here or there, why should any of us care too much about that? I think, to some extent, morality only extends so far and we should focus more on this being said for intellectual curiosity and gain than moralistic purposes.
Tell you what, Eternal. You do you, and I’ll do me. I’ll quit the drugs but I promise not to put any pressure on you to do the same. That way, you can feel free to indulge in whatever drug habits you desire without feeling like you now have to live up to a new standard.