Forum Philosophy Update

I don’t know about wars and I can’t base anything on evidence, but it sure feels like if Hillary would have won it would have been status quo and no one would have thought twice about a jew-hating youtube video. The sentiment at the time was “Oh that’s just stupid; who cares” and now it’s “OMG hate speech!”

zerohedge.com/news/2018-01- … nvironment

Is there anyone here who supports to restriction of speech? If not, is there anyone who can play devil’s advocate to argue their position? I’m curious if there is any merit and why anyone would hold such a view.

In Europe it’s against the law to challenge the holocaust and one can serve years in prison over it. I think the reason is that it disrespects the victims by making them liars, like telling Buzz Aldrin he didn’t walk on the moon and getting punched for it:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlbYOKSSaIE[/youtube]

(Now that I watched the video, the fact that he didn’t pacify the guy by swearing on his bible is a bit suspicious. Is he afraid to swear on it? Would he have to swear on it in court? If he would swear on it in court, then wouldn’t it be easier to swear on it to make the guy leave rather than making such protest followed by slugging the guy? Opinions on that would be cool.)

So should we make a law that prohibits folks from making conspiracies about the moonwalking? Why not? Why allow disrespect of the astronauts who risked life and limb?

Heck, why stop there. It’s a slippery slope, right? We can slide on down to the crime of hurting people’s feelings. “You called me a name so you can go to jail!”

Why not outlaw climate denial? After all, our earth is at stake, right? “Life in prison for advocating the destruction of earth!”

Where does it end and who gets to decide?

Why must truth be guarded so rabidly?

Freedom of speech is the only mechanism for establishing truth, so censoring speech for the sake of truth is therefore the undermining of its very own underpinning and it the philosophical equivalent of sawing off the limb you’re sitting on. It’s madness!

“Beware when fighting monsters that you don’t become a monster.” As soon as we embark on a crusade of righteousness we’ve become monsters: armed clergy.

I am saying that it’s hard to discern. I didn’t think that Mr. R’s suggestion to “fall off a ladder” was insulting. And after rereading it I still don’t. I’m surprised that you take it as an insult.
My opinion is probably the result of having fallen off a ladder and permanently damaging my body. Any more similar falls off ladders could leave me paralyzed. So although gravity doesn’t increase consequences, damage does accumulate as he suggested.

He should not have said that you were being tacky.

So the pub owner gets added obligations but the patrons have no added obligations even if the owner has a clearly expressed policy on use of the webcam and the patrons have agreed to the policy. Is that your position?

So if I’m a Jew and I invite the public to my house for some roasted lamb and then someone starts yelling anti-Semitic, anti-meat, or just personal insults, then I can’t tell him to stop and I can’t tell him to leave??
( Maybe “throw the filthy Jews in the oven” stuff :wink: )
That’s the correct ethics?

The owner can unplug the webcam if a patron is saying something that goes against the owners policy? Now I’m really confused because in the last example you seemed to be saying that the homeowner has to allow his “equipment” to be used. And you also seem to be arguing that with respect to media companies in general.

I don’t know the details of what the policy was or why it changed. But if it was copyrighted material, then they can ask that it not be broadcast.

Well, he has made threads in the past where he said that theists are mentally ill and delusional. But at least he wrote some arguments in those threads.

The Religion and Spirituality forum is described as "For intuitive and critical discussions, from spirituality to theological doctrines. Fair warning: because the subject matter is personal, moderation is strict. "

In fact, the moderation is not strict. It has become a forum for bashing theists.

I have tried to keep the discussions at least a bit philosophical. But I’m tired of it.

That he presents no new information, no argument and that his post is one insult. And he has a choice of either posting relevant content or getting banned.

I can’t picture a forum situation where shaming would be a positive.

I don’t think that’s true. As long as there are enough “nice” people around then they “crowd out” the “nasty” people. The “nice” people go quiet or leave when a certain threshold of “nastiness” is exceeded.
Policing helps keep the “nastiness” in check by presenting real consequences to the “nasty” people for their behavior and giving them motivation to change. It reduces the rate of growth of the “nasty” population.

Some guy calls Buzz a liar and Buzz is supposed to “do” something for the guy to show that he is not lying?

What if Buzz does swear on the bible and then the guy just says that Buzz lied while swearing on the bible?

Do you really think that the guy would say that he was “completely wrong about his allegations” and walk away “converted”?

I don’t think so.

Are you going to “intervene” in the “shooting” thread?
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=193836&start=100#p2693785

Yes.

Don’t let him off the hook. I want to see some serious shaming. :evilfun:

Pretty much, gold in the rough as they say.

I suspect however they’ll simply turn off all of the internet before then…

Look at all the white nationalist websites they simply turned off last year, they won’t just stop with that however as what will come next is any website promoting rebellion against the government or power structure. Mark my words for future reference please. White nationalism was a target of convenience for public outcry to move onto other venues in banning or censorship.

I also like differing opinions and beliefs as my beliefs wouldn’t become stronger if I didn’t have any opponent to debate. I take great pride in debating others striking them down in bouts of words.

Where are the nazis? If you don’t know by now I am the resident autocrat here and I make no apologies for being such. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump serve the same masters, choice within democracy is always a false dichotomy.

Yet a hot war is surfacing in Syria under Trump, nothing was implemented differently at all.

I support the restriction of speech under my chosen political ideology however under the dictatorship I promote I would have no problem with holocaust revisionism or skepticism publicly in that my beliefs are definitely not kosher. I would publicly state my beliefs on the holocaust or World War II here on the forum but I won’t for such politically incorrect beliefs of mine pertaining the subject would get me permanently banned here very quickly. I’ll just leave it at that.

It’s in the context. If I had asked what it feels like to fall off a ladder, then the suggestion wouldn’t be insulting. But I simply said that nature doesn’t increase punishment and he recommended I fall off the ladder more often in order to discover that nature does increase the punishment and that my expression of ignorance was tacky. But what was tacky is what he metaphorically stepped in by calling me tacky because the punishment does not increase and nature doesn’t seek to punish.

And, conceding that maybe people don’t change, he continues to find tacky things to step in here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=193768#p2690982

People who throw insults at one another are, for the lack of a better word, kind of lowly and pitiful.

So he’s insulting people who insult and has consequently defined himself by his own conclusion. I suppose I have to tread lightly lest I insult him, but then again, I’m human and subject to mistakes and won’t contaminate myself with purity.

Umm… I guess so. I thought I stated my position verbosely. The pub owner doesn’t have the right to take away the right to freedom of speech of the public. That is independent of any obligations the pub owner may or may not realize. That is my position.

Depends what you mean by “invite the public to my house”. Is the invitation open to everyone on earth? Or do you mean just some friends? If it’s open to everyone, then no. If the invitation is limited, then yes. You make the decision to make your house public and once you do that, you can’t control what information the public has access to. If someone starts yelling comments, then all you can do is say “Well, I invited everyone and this is what I get: everyone.”

No the owner doesn’t HAVE to allow usage of his equipment; it was just to state that “even if they use his equipment”. Who owns the equipment doesn’t matter. What matters is who is invited and who is the audience.

So Schiff has no rights to his own material simply because it was on a medium owned my someone else? If you discover the cure for cancer on my pc, then I can seize your work and claim credit? It should be the other way around… it was Schiff’s intellectual property that was stolen by CNBC.

Indeed I am missing a lot of history, but I hate to lose even one member. I think banning should be reserved for the absolute last measure when all-else has failed.

I wish I could help, but I can’t even keep up with my own posts. How do you know when someone is addressing you? Some boards have notifications up in the corner, but I have to randomly check to see if anyone is talking to me and I’m sure I miss even reading a lot of replies because I can’t remember all the places I’ve posted in order to check and see.

Reminds me of Stefan Molyneux’s “Not an argument!” lol! Why the haste to ban people? I’d like to ask Stefan the same question because he said:

Start at 58:30

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFRqIhzjxBg[/youtube]

When you take away external coercion, what you get is not chaos, but spontaneous self-organization.

He used the “school with no rules” as an example sbs.com.au/news/the-school-with-no-rules

So I went to his forum and found more rules than I’ve ever seen and I’ve read on other forums how ban-happy he is. He can preach, but can’t take his own medicine.

Why not?

I guess so, but it also creates echochambers just like the nasty people do when left alone. Policing is artificial selection vs not-policing which is natural selection. Either way, survival is determined by selection. I’m guessing you’re a theist since you’re teleological in asserting that control and guidance from ruler is necessary?

I don’t know, but I probably would have said “Ok look, I realize you having some difficulty in believing I walked on the moon, so if it will help, I’ll swear on the bible for you. Happy now? No? Then I’m out of ideas to help you, now please leave me alone until you can think of something that I can demonstrate for you.” Why would I not say that? The only thing I can imagine is that if I believed in god, I would not want to swear on a lie.

What did I miss? Dang it.

Yes, I agree with you.

Yup, except not sure it’s healthy to feel pride in defeating someone. It should be more like helping someone who has fallen down to stand up.

No I wasn’t aware, but nice to meet you and glad you’re here to represent your beliefs.

Yeah, with some differences. Don supports guns and is tougher on immigration, but is in bed with the jewish banksters.

Yes, but then again, is democracy so attractive? Would you put a prospective operation or medical treatment up to a popular vote? It’s always bugged me that people who have no idea about economics are voting on economical issues. Abortion? Ok I suppose that’s subjective enough to put to a vote, but minimum wages? Most people aren’t qualified to have an opinion.

What is your reasoning for that position?

Seriously? Denying the holocaust will get you banned from here? Is it an unwritten rule? How is anyone to know the rule exists?

I would love to have a forum where subtly destructive patterns are moderated as much as openly insulting ones. Often the most damaging posters are people who are generally polite but who never quite manage to respond to what you have written and/or refuse to acknowledge that a criticism has been mentioned, let alone respond to it, often simply repeating their assertions, people who confuse expressing opinions with mounting a cohesive argument, strawmen lovers, appealers to authority and so on. Someone who makes a lot of racist statements or insults people can be very disruptive, though it should be noted that if the rest of the community responds intelligently, there is no problem. Of course if you insult people, it tends to set of worthless to the topic responses, but then that means we have a community problem not simply an individual problem. It is also, I find, easier to ignore, than someone with the vague form of rationality who draws you in but never acknowledges or concedes anything that might trouble their view. Of course, I bear responsibility for being lured in when I am.

If I look around the forum I see a lot of opinion making and really sloppy arguments, with the occasional interesting post. Keeping away right wing extremists may or may not have lead to more focused discussions, but really I find it hard to imagine that this is the case, given the current state.

It is easy, and understandibly more appealing to no doubt busy moderators, to focus on CONTENT. But pattern of interaction is really more destructive.

I think shaming is good. I wish the community would shame not content but inability to carry out coherent dialogue with integrity. I mean, it does happen. A number of people have reacted to Prismatic who is a classice example of someone so sure they are right, they cannot acknowledge the slightest mistake and commit many of the sins I mentioned above. AT least three people have bluntly commented on his shortcomings here, after trying through many, many posts to have a rational dialogue with him. I think that kind of shaming is good. In fact I would like to see more shaming and less banning. Not that it has worked in Prismatic’s case, nor am I optimistic with some of the people mentioned earlier in this thread.

I also think people should be encourage to ignore posters. Right now there is this weird conception that it is a sin or weak or cowardly to put people on ignore or otherwise ignore them. Jesus, do people listen to just random podcasts and radio shows. Just flip a coin to decide what books to read, what friends to have, who to have deep discussions with? No. We all make choices. More people should be ignored. Don’t feed the trolls, regardless of whether they are polite impervious idiots or rude people. If you cannot learn from them adn they cannot learn from you, what the hell are you wasting your time talking to them for?

Announce you will ignore them - shaming, factual information, a nod to your colleagues - then ignore them.

Make shame and shunning the core natural consequence punishment here. Shaming itself is fair and gives the person good feedback. Then when they are shunned, get little response, they understand why. Shaming will not make changes or much, but shunning after shaming will.

And we don’t need Carleas to do this, though it would help if he saw the wisdom of this.

Yes, or at least frowned upon.

I think it’s very important to make concessions when we’re wrong. Good points need to be encouraged and reward given for what is earned. If you make a good point, I want to tell you so as feedback and to let you know that I’m playing fair and worthy of conversation.

Not conceding is the moral equivalent of cheating to win a game and who wants to play with cheaters?

But it seems the best to be hoped for is that a person simply leaves the conversation. No concession, no thanks, just poof. I guess that’s better than going round and round :confused:

I wish I knew how to fix prism. Cognitive dissonance elicits a fight response involving a part of the brain not having rationality, but survival in mind. So the more evidence that is presented, the more they dig in. And the smarter the person is, the more creative ways they can find around being wrong. Good read: scottberkun.com/essays/40-why-sm … bad-ideas/

I feel like I’d miss part of a conversation and maybe the person can change over time then I’d never know it if they were on ignore. I figure I can ignore them without having to put them on ignore.

Yeah no kidding.

I think shaming will work if enough people or the RIGHT people are participating. Obviously someone who is not respected by the person won’t be able to shame, but if the shamer is respected, then it will produce a feeling of remorse.

Yeah a blessing would be good.

I genuinely believe that communities should be capable of maintaining themselves, and if they can’t, they aren’t communities, but herded animals in need of guidance. It’s a shame that online communities would need the caliber of oversight typically reserved for elementary schools.