Contagion has a dark side, and it overwhelms its positive connotation. I still have hope against a duplicitous anomaly, that You are singularly focused on the bright side!
Let’s try to avoid distractions.
I’ve spent some ‘background’ time … ergo … not focused/intentional … reflecting on the cartoon … the rain cartoon. Here are some thoughts in no particular order.
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There is some white space in the cartoon image … despite where this exercise may take us there will remain stuff beyond our grasp.
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Rain is impartial … we should avoid making judgements, proselytizing any personal beliefs … religious, scientific, philosophical and so on.
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Degree of success depends on the participants willingness to stand ‘naked’ in the rain … figuratively speaking … though literally speaking sounds like fun too.
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The image contains a boy and a girl … a “whole” … reminds me of Yin Yang … male and female being necessary components of the ‘whole’.
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The boy has a preference for science/analysis … the girl seems more content with intuition. Reminds me of Jordan Petersen’s comment … “Life is a catastrophe … accept it … work with it … not against it.”
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The dialogue and the measure of success should be experiential.
Your turn.
PS
I tried reading some of Laing’s book “The Divided Self” … tough sledding for me … though the following sentenced jumped out at me.
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Laimg was a strange man. Literally. His personal life,? In tatters, and so different from his professional life, as if the impersonal - with a view to help the most, objectively speaking, I believe his kids leveled charges of indifference and some cruelty against him.
Somewhat like Immanuel Kant, who tried to connect and make sense of an early disjointed world, actually kicking his servants down the stairs
There is some sense in this, even Jung, treating schizophrenics, his odium was that in order to treat them, you had to speak their language. get into their work. Many in the Freudian school are too afraid to get lost there
I guess this leads to the unavoidable : ’ It takes one to know one"
Or, to get out into light, you have had to know darkness, at least borderline figurative/literally.
I did not miss the metaphors in Your rainy day description, but did not concern with them, since I did not figure it was a set stage for other things to follow.
Incidentally it was Marcus Auerilus who said, ’ An untested virtue has no merit,’
The great dramatists of antiquity drscribed journeys through hell. I remember a member of ILP called Stuart, he came to see me here in California, I was in a nasty mood, I picked him up at the railroad station, and I was abrupt and uncompromising, and regret that, he was unable to follow me in a journey like Rimbaud into the season of hell, but now I’m thinking he is presently living under a different incarnation here at ILP.
If so he may suspect the same thing of me differently as well.
Your turn.
Since I have not adopted Your format, style , or objectives , as I promised I would, could You feed back Your opinion , whether free associative of traditional format should be used, further on, if, we get there?
I allude to Heaven and Hell through association with, , Huxley, who was Laing’s close friend pointing to the association as a very tightly knit group of like minded thinkers. Others in the Philadelphia group were Hogey Carmichle and Timothy Leary.
Rimbaud was iconic figure within that group.
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I’m most comfortable with a fluid approach … no boundaries … no rules.
Paraphrasing your post …
Human life embodies a spectrum of color … black to white and countless shades of gray in between. For me, how does one traverse this spectrum? Is it always via conscious/intentional decisions/actions.
Let me share a personal experience:
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I did the conversion: 1400 km is 850 miles. The nearest I ever came to that is 23.5 miles marathon run 5 times with 3 of my kids. And that was a run decreasing toward the middle to a slow run-fast walk, and toward the end a slow walk.
The convergence of forces is an interesting experience, but I can relate to it to times when things are closing in
This never closes the thing, the vital force that Betgson thinks in terms somewhat You are talking about.
Your experience sounds like a desperate attempt to break free of that constraint, of compression, we all feel at times, relatively speaking.
My compression is, as I have described elsewhere here, is more like being compressed under the depths of a body of water, not actually, but panpsychically , where it does feel like the approach of some limiting force.
I often wondered, like the above so named Peter, whose preoccupation with what’s it like to come to the end of , in Your case the end of an unbelievable astounding long walk,
What will be like to consciously experience of reaching the end then trying to think about crossing over. Will it be like when trying to hold one’s breath, and reach the limit before the knowledge of the real thing, the bursting happens?
Unconsciousness I heard comes as a blessing then with the terror of trying to stay awake at the end and crossing over.
That kind of fear can motivate the doing of heretofore incredible feats.
When ones child is trapped under a car pressing on his longs, it has been documented, the parent can generate incredible strength and lift the 3 ton vehicle and free the loved one pinned underneath.
I am in a similar situation now, not too much different from Peter’s experience and I wonder how my limits will force me to do something extreme.
But back to Your anecdote:
Under duressit seems You probably lost connective ties as to who talked to whom, and seeing it only in its final destination, the doctors wife, you started to think magically, imputing some serious underhanded attempt to commit you and subject you to who knows what kind of medical experiment: in sum, lack of facts about a series of events made you prone to paranoiac thoughts , because you only saw althe beginning and end of the route the document took. Might as well thought that its arrival heralded in a new and mysterious age, for which you were responsible. But that would have been too much even for Your very suspicious state of mind.
An exciting post … feels like we’re moving forward … maybe just an illusion.
I went on three more long walks after the one I mentioned in my last post … logged more than 4,000 kms in total … 2000-2004. Our e-exchanges gave rise to the thought my long walks were like experimenting with mind altering drugs … as you mentioned … I was looking for an escape.
Who’s Betgson? … Bergson?
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Yep
I label the ‘constraint’ … conformity. I just read an eloquent description of the notion ‘conformity’ … can’t remember where … dementia is setting in.
The author said something to the effect social/cultural conformity puts a straight jacket … ergo … imprisons … the creative individual. I can see the relevance with artistic people … music, art, literature and so on. None of these artistic types fit me 
I’m simply a “misfit” … never liked conformity … don’t know why … pretended to be OK with it for about 43 years.
In my case … it seems the compression you refer to never achieved explosion status … seems I always had a vent of sorts.
My personal metaphor … the equivalent of your “under depths of a body of water” … is a rope bridge. Some notes from many years ago …
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Now for some speculation.
I really like your introduction of the word “compression”. In our mechanical world we easily observe the tremendous power of carefully managed compression. We also easily observe the tremendous destructive force when improperly managed.
Maybe the same principles apply for humans. We’re given “compression” for a purpose … to expand our power as individuals so to speak. Some individuals seem to master the management of “compression” and make great contributions to humanity … others … well you know the story.
Thoughts?
A valid perspective.
Steve Job provided an alternative perspective in his 2005 speech:
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So what then trust, maybe a version of whatever you hang your coat on won’t fall out of the wall. Jobs was right, and by the same token, You can’t undo that, whatever was done to Your son.
Something learned, then re-learned, may stick much better then the first time, so to try to get undone, will need much more than a simple removal. There would need piece by piece removal, and that would need much more certainty then try to find what to unhook. After all, key elements are indistinguishable from those which are simply supported by those that are the supported ones.
There may be a melt down , not unlike virtual versions of psycho surgery.
The known are no problem, but the unknown’s? The only way to deal with even filling the dots I’d pragmatically , and no one in their minds would want to try using hit and miss approximations.
An approximate certainty is better then an absolute
uncertainty. But it takes the later to fuse the former.
But the later is an unkind parent , its the censor intoletate of his offspring, because to him there is no higher power, except the org.(not Hubbard et.al.) but the Great Organizer in the Sky, and he knows Him through , and In Him , himself is all he’s got , the ultimate responsibility and subsequent guilt all fathers have.
And that guarantee is not merely psychological , but infused to gather, more, for reasons not nearly unbecoming.
Try not to decode these, only through a general drift relating to sons in general mine and perhaps yours, for some can not be.
Laing’s knots, hooks up the ante, so much more , that hoping that unknotting them will simply eliminate its implications, far more uncertain as merely a pipe dream.
The missed variable intangibles missed may be far more numerous and significant then thought at first…It really may turn out as a fool’s bet.
Now the above is a hit and miss dribble and I was going to take it out but left it as it is so that it may serve as some kind of catalyst /connecting link to an allegory I was going to make up, not unlike to the one You posed a few blogs back.
But all this may take toll and strain, so set the pace and tone, if it can go on to an as yet undetermined limit, because even now background noise can be heard if you listen to it carefully.
An infinite regression should not be a bar to You, in order to continue. heed the warning , to. those who enter here.
I’m listening … waiting for your response to my second last post … starts with the sentence …
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No boundaries … no rules … though common courtesy compels me to share my thoughts … triggered by your posts.
- Your first post … Agreed … there are more variables than we can count. I see two alternatives:
a) Throw our hands in the air and declare hopelessness.
b) Gird our loins and “ultreya” … Spanish for “keep going.”
Another personal anecdote describing how the word “ultreya” entered my personal vocabulary … retrieved from some old notes.
Part I
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Part II
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Your second post … spontaneous (un)censored comments are the best … a manifestation of the “get naked” prerequisite for meaningful dialogue.
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Your 3rd post … to enter here one must be willing to ‘get naked’ … hang out some personal dirty laundry for public view. Easy enough for the insane … terribly difficult for sane people.
One thing I must so is to help paraphrase in the square as You are doing doing. Will go to T Mobile tomorrow to find out how to do that. Now to the first comment
I am excited and reluctant at the same time, because in deed we are moving forward.and it seems to me in not am illusion. Your comments are both worth while and exhilarating.
Now I may be crazy, but I am not insane, and there is a distinction and I can’t really say wether I can as of yet decide to get naked or stay dressed for I wpuos not want to go from crazy to truly crazy or insane
So what will happen when we I, get to a point where a decision has to be made in this regard?
We are talking boundaries here and You Yourself drew around when pushed to the inquiry about Your son.I too have such a limitation , and its that some things are so personal as to make them almost taboo. Other things such as employee relates confidentiality , comtractual, signed or understood, and others such as clearances bar trespass or go to jail. This jail is as yet virtual nut upon pass go you do not collect 200 dollars.
Dribble at times dribble. Another thing : by posting personal stuff , and that can not be avoided, we are game to such purveyors of objectivity who expressly state that its not good form to shed too much biography , especially the bad kind, for it invariably create a sense of self victimization for any and all to gawk and chatter about.
You are obviously implying organization and spelling difficulties on my part, but got to go its almost 11 pm and my wife is demanding attention
By for now. You are probably Eastern Standard Time and most likely shut eye
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Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from Augustine.
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Individuals who overtly challenge the prevailing “torrent of human custom” are labelled crazy or insane. It must be so or the "torrent of human custom" wouldn’t survive. OTH throughout history many individuals during their lifetime were labelled crazy or insane and a century or so later their legacy morphs into genius/hero. Crazy/insane individuals are a necessary component of human evolution.
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We have both already crossed this bridge several times … seems to me the unconscious mind is trustworthy … no need to bother our conscious mind with such a trivial matter.
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A great example of what I just wrote. After reading your above sentence my first thought … “What’s he talking about?” Then I went looking for some reference to your statement. I had to scan the entire thread three times before I found it … and there it was … clear as day … in black and white. What a monstrosity! The unconscious mind really is the elephant … the rider … our conscious mind … is the fool that thinks he/she can make the elephant go where ever we want it to go.
My conscious mind is now ready to respond to your question concerning my son … suppose it now has the approval of my unconscious mind.
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It would be unkind to hang out my son’s dirty laundry without his permission. OTH public information is OK.
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Regarding the experience I mentioned … the internet was the enabler though there were so many other factors … many of which I’m not even aware of.
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Kevin recovered from the experience … went on to get married … fathered a daughter … got divorced … fathered a second daughter in a second relationship … changed his family name and cut me off from all communications about 10 years ago. Kevin obviously chooses to deal with his “compression” in his own way … not unlike his father.
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Thinking and caring about what other people will say or do is a two edged sword. While it promotes conformity it also stifles freedom and creativity.
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Let me be direct … I have fewer distractions, more leisure time and the subject we are discussing is … and has been for almost 25 years now … the most important thing in my life.
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Apparently we have a 16 hour difference in time zone … probably explains why I’m running out in front.
Seems like, as it should this thread is burrowing deeper on a far faster pace . Probably as it should, where the ‘should’ is more ties to the unconscious them the intended , more linear
approximation. So something may be amiss with the quantified precept of acquiring knowledge of the kind we are talking about. And I think I can give an answer to that, it is like a fishing expedition to the neural connectors between the conscious and the unconscious.
That area of the brain is struggling right now, the grey area between them is hard pressed to resolve the issue which way, what of , where from, where to, to whom-well that’s You,
and more ifs and but’s that come from seemingly nowhere
Bit to give justice to Your blog, ill need to digest it and can not answer until at least until tonight.
I agree this is exciting and our enthusiasm suggests as much.
More paraphrasing
For me, our e-exchange is a manifestation of the emerging notion of “Collective Wisdom”.
As I understand the notion … park your ego at the door … enter a room and engage in communication … watch the magic happen.
In NT Biblical terms …
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Yes and the collection implies a collector and for that we may need a third party.Your suggestion in a prior blog was to get other participants involved but maybe a ‘collector’ is a disposable concept anyway and we could set up a separate discussion about that, reminding of an infinitely. Regressive type of again: they area where we will come to inconclusive premises and / or results. We may solve this problem of collection in other ways, perhaps some e.g.some collusion or compression with the idea generated between assumptions and expectation s.
Forgive for the philosophic. Bend, trying to get out from under it. That’s another concern, the type of communication used.
J