Reality vs Perception

Hello there,

What I was saying is that it IS our very own individual perception which builds our reality ~ a reality which may or may not be built on what is “real” and “true”.
That is why perception is in the driver’s seat.

Yes, perception exists but insofar as reality existing by way of one’s individual perception, that would depend on whether or not one is seeing things as they actually are.

Arcturus Descending

Interesting, I was not initially sure of how to answer you but I present a kind of answer for you here.

Hmm, do you deny that at least some of actual reality makes it through and what we come to perceive is partially based on reality?

I am saying that actual reality helps to build our individual reality . . .

I would have to say that we are seeing at the very least partial representations of reality if not the whole of reality.

I hope you see some logic here . . .

In so much that a view of reality is not really what we refer to as reality. Reality is what is viewed, what we interpret it as is perception. All the percepts of reality are in reality, of course. Where else could they be?

If a percept is an object of perception then reality could be said to be in perception by way of interpretation but I am with you on this especially if reality is perceived falsely. Also percepts being the consequence of perception and perception being a near consequence of reality says that percepts are a near consequence of reality.

“Nothing ever becomes real till experienced – even a proverb is no proverb until your life has illustrated it” - John Keats

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Simon & Garfunkel Lyrics
“The Sound Of Silence”

Hello darkness, my old friend
I’ve come to talk with you again
Because a vision softly creeping
Left its seeds while I was sleeping
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone
‘Neath the halo of a streetlamp
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more
People talking without speaking
People hearing without listening
People writing songs that voices never share
No one dare
Disturb the sound of silence

“Fools” said I, “You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows
Hear my words that I might teach you
Take my arms that I might reach you”
But my words like silent raindrops fell
And echoed in the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said “The words of the prophets
Are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sounds of silence”

genius.com/Simon-and-garfunkel- … nce-lyrics

youtube.com/watch?v=4fWyzwo1xg0

If I have to explain, you wouldn’t understand :wink:

:smiley:

You like that? I can continue :-"

[i]When I was young,
It seemed that life was so wonderful,
A miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.
And all the birds in the trees,
Well they’d be singing so happily,
Oh joyfully, oh playfully watching me.

But then they sent me away
To teach me how to be sensible,
Logical, oh responsible, practical.
And then they showed me a world
Where I could be so dependable,
Oh clinical, oh intellectual, cynical.

There are times
When all the world’s asleep,
The questions run too deep
For such a simple man.

Won’t you please,
Please tell me what we’ve learned
I know it sounds absurd
Please tell me who I am.[/i]

genius.com/Supertramp-the-logical-song-lyrics

youtube.com/watch?v=OQfjIw3mivc

[i]Well I came upon a child of God,
he was walking along the road
And I asked him tell me where are you going,
this he told me:

Said, I’m going down to Yasgur’s farm,
going to join in a rock and roll band.
Got to get back to the land,
and set my soul free.

We are stardust, we are golden,
we are billion year old carbon,

And we got to get ourselves
back to the garden.[/i]

genius.com/Crosby-stills-nash-a … ock-lyrics

youtube.com/watch?v=HKdsRWhyH30

[i]I close my eyes, only for a moment
And the moment’s gone
All my dreams pass before my eyes, a curiosity
Dust in the wind
All they are is dust in the wind

Same old song, just a drop of water
In an endless sea
All we do crumbles to the ground
Though we refuse to see
Dust in the wind
All we are is dust in the wind[/i]

genius.com/Kansas-dust-in-the-wind-lyrics

youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ

[i]I heard I lost it on the grapevine
I must admit I had a great time
There are words for people like me
But I don’t think there’s very many

I’ve gained the world and lost my soul
Maybe it’s 'cause I’m getting old
All the people that I know
Have gained the world and lost their soul

There’s no persuasion that I’m into
I’ve made some sense of what we’ve been through
We should form a new foundation
If we could find the right location[/i]

genius.com/Morcheeba-gained-the-world-lyrics

youtube.com/watch?v=AyKXaqc7Czo

In struggling to answer all my questions I realized that having questions was the point:

“You know the nearer your destination, the more you slip sliding away”

Whoah God only knows, God makes his plan
The information’s unavailable to the mortal man
We’re workin’ our jobs, collect our pay
Believe we’re gliding down the highway, when in fact we’re slip sliding away

azlyrics.com/lyrics/simonga … naway.html

youtube.com/watch?v=iUODdPpnxcA

@encode_decode :

CODE RED! Please contact me immediately! We have a problem!

These kinds of posts could be taken more than one way and are not that specific in what they are trying to deliver. I personally get left with the feeling that I am being accused of having no experience at 42 years of age and therefore accused of saying things that are not real. But who exactly is doing the accusing? Somebody with experience of what I am talking about? I fear not. It is not like I am discussing anything necessarily new here - similar topics have been discussed for millennia.

So what is it that pilgrim-seeker_tom was trying to say to me? That all I was doing was “blah … blah … blah”? Fine, I no longer care what he thinks. He does not have to read anything that I have put together. I would suggest that of anybody. We all have the choice whether to read certain material or not.

To put it simply and somewhat figuratively: There is no sense in blaming me for something you would decide to do. I don’t blame others for what I decide on.

The things I post are the things I talk about and some people happen to find them interesting.

Peace

:smiley:

To put it into philosophical jargon, the idea of a sense data(precept) reduces perception and it’s objects ultimately. Infinitely, with the object falling below the threshold of perception.

Objection to Russell’s idea .
How would it coincide with Nietzche’s idea of the nihilized something of the abyss?

Recently approved post.

I will get back to you soon with my interpretation of what you are asking.

For now: I can not be certain that I understand what you mean - that is fine though - I can attempt some interpretation and hope to not fall too far from the mark.

There is meaning coming at me from your post. I have not read Nietzsche.

Thanks for that and I will attempt a general idea of what comes up in connection to that.

Hopefully I am not conflating concepts in a corrupt way. I am still new to this concept of sense data. I am aware of my misuse here.

Just a stray thought: We have failed to take into account the processes that happen below the conscious states - namely those that go on in the brain. Many neural networks are activated in relation to any given sense datum and some do not appear to bring into perception any given thing - we perceive the main event each time but many smaller events have taken place further strengthening future sense datum ready for activation - reminding us of some thing at a time.

I propose more than one sense datum at a time - those that fall into conscious and those which do not. I further propose that there is nothing meaningless going on in the brain - that we are misunderstanding what meaning is and therefore discounting meaning happening that is not perceived.

The brain is its own universe. We are the actor.

My studies show that a thought need not be in the conscious. A thought comes with its own machinery.

I must admit, I am curious as to what brought this question about. The idea and the objection point at something familiar involving entropy.

I don’t think pilgrim seeker was referring to you, but the board in general:

You are the least arrogant and mentally blocked on here, which is why we are friends.

No, he’s saying that any assessment of reality without experience is blah blah meaningless garbage. He’s saying object + subject constitute reality.

“Nothing ever becomes real till experienced – even a proverb is no proverb until your life has illustrated it” - John Keats

Pilgrim seeker is someone whom I’ve disengaged with because I’m not sure how to take him either. It began ok, but then he seemed to snap at me. It could be an innocent artifact of how he talks, which could be why he peppers his posts with emoticons. Idk…

But yeah, there is a lot of arrogance on display here. People just want to be right and aren’t so much concerned with truth. That’s part of the meaning of the Sounds of Silence.

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made
And the sign flashed out its warning
In the words that it was forming
And the sign said “The words of the prophets
Are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls
And whispered in the sounds of silence”

Truth falls on deaf ears because people have no regard for the bland, but prefer the egoic neon.

Or we could say that Galileo wanted to reveal truth that the church wished to hide for its own perverted reasons, so not to disturb the sound of silence.

Taken from the Genius site genius.com/1938673

If it falls below the threshold of perception, can it be an object? Note that perception doesn’t necessarily necessitate consciousness or awareness of perception.

What can’t be perceived, can’t be real, so it seems consistent.

Good stuff!

What is a brain?

In biology, the unitary approach makes it explicit why no organism can be thought of without an environment. An organism as a skin bag is no functioning system; it may be such only together with the relevant environmental parts. The same applies to neurophysiology or “cognitive” brain research: without the rest of the world the nervous system is not a system at all; neither is the agent of the behavior a part of the body, such as the brain.

researchgate.net/publicatio … Psychology

I really like that. Your above interpretations are very likely more accurate than mine - I do not fully trust my assumptions ever. As for the above interpretations, regarding tom and the like as well as the sense data and Nietzsche I will get back to you on that - I am still reading up on nihilism as it pertains to Nietzsche as well as a little extra. Regarding what I have quoted in this post, well, I never considered the rest of the world.

Thanks. Cya soon.

:smiley:

Lately, after all, I tried to write an answer to a previous comment but found I could not because of the limited three subquotes.

So generally, Sartre is still holding the infinite reduction at bay, through reducing to the point where things makes sense via a bracketing. He is still holding to Descartes’ notion of thinking being (thinking of Being) , rather then the Nothingness of an infinite existentially reduced precept. As it turns out, such would prove contrary phenomenologically and here he could/would say Non cogiti non sum, or where I can not think, I do not exist,

One cannot think in nihilism, the child’s fear of the abyss, the dark is where he can not see himself" and thus know himself as an existent. Here he doesnt exist.

Nihilism is an all consuming idea of a death, which may turn out to be a perceptual illusion.

I agree with the above of the existence of the correlation as consisting of sufficient logical necessity, but at a certain level below the reduction of the phenomenon, it looses its structural basis.

I will try to make this comment more sufficiently substantial, as I review the comments above in which the relevance were confirmed by both of you.

Russell’s precept or sense data held the way Descartes’ and did. Nietzsche showed that prophetically, ironically after the fact.