Is political bias on part of the FBI a fact or fiction?

So, fact, as it turns out.

Could You elaborate? I am somewhat in the fog . I could let it stand. , as a statement of probability, against a backdrop of certainty, since definitionally the whole nine yards is still in process.

I may be off on Your intended meaning here , though.

I won’t speak for Ucci but the OP asked whether political bias from the FBI is a fact or fiction and it has turned out to be a fact.

The Nunes memo is a summary of the House Intelligence Committee (HIC) investigation into the claim the FBI/DoJ Trump investigation was biased and that they abused their surveillance authority by spying. The gist of the summary is this:

  • Clinton PAID Fusion GPS $160K to get dirt on Trump

  • Fusion GPS hired Steele (ex-MI6)

  • Steele paid Russian agents to collect dirt on Trump which means: CLINTON PAID RUSSIANS (VIA INTERMEDIARIES) TO INTERFERE IN THE ELECTIONS.

  • Steele contacted left-wing media and planted stories about Trump/Russian collusion.

  • The left-wing media ate it up and flooded the news outlets with fake news.

  • Steele then used the fake stories he leaked, and included them in his dossier to prove Trump was colluding with Russia – i.e. he quoted his own stories in the dossier to back up his fake narrative.

  • The Steele dossier included amateur research some of it seemingly lifted from Wikipedia, errors that were easily proven wrong (e.g. Page could not have met with Russians in Prague because he has NEVER been to Prague) and salacious stories like the one about Trump hating Obama so much that he hired the Moscow hotel room Obama stayed in and got prostitutes to piss on the bed Obama used etc.

  • Even though doubtful, the FBI accepted the information with almost NO VERIFICATION.

  • The FBI then used the information (they believed to be largely untrue) to get a FISA spy warrant on Page (a Trump foreign affairs advisor) and thus by extension, spy on the communication going to and from Trump and his team.

  • The FBI didn’t tell the FISA court that the dossier was 1. virtually UNVERIFIED 2. written by a vehemently anti-Trump source with a history of lying or 3. that the source of the information used his own leaks to use in the dossier.

  • The FBI admitted under oath to Congress that they KNEW the information was fake. Knowing this, the FBI still used the fake information to extend their spy warrant on Page/Trump three times.

This is NOT justice. Justice supposed to be blind; without fear or favour This is political bias in the extreme. For anyone who believes in the rule of law, an unbiased police and justice system and a functioning, fully-informed democracy, this should worry the shit out of you. If the Republicans were doing this shit to the Democrats, I have exactly the same response - no fear or favour. But this is beyond disgusting.
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Certainly something to think about.

Still, as usual, there are other ways to look at it:

vox.com/policy-and-politics … fbi-russia

Many are then inclined to pile up the facts in order to support their own political prejudices.

Both the liberals and the conservatives do it. More or less self-consciously.

Now, either Clinton colluded with the Russians in order to help defeat Trump or Trump colluded with the Russians in order to defeat Clinton.

Or, sure, neither party did any such thing.

A set of facts will eventually emerge regarding this that we can all argue about until the day we die. And a set of facts regarding obstruction of justice.

Personally, I don’t really follow this shit much anymore. These days, I’m more inclined to focus instead on my “dilemma”. The hole that I’ve dug for myself philosophically.

Still, it does seem rather convincing [here and now] that Trump and Putin have something going on here that is mighty suspicious.

I mean, come on.

.
These firings, demotions and retirings aren’t happening because of piling up political accusations.
Read their emails. Their anti-Trump bias is all there.

McCABE

  • Deputy Director FBI (McCabe) resigned just before the memo came out. He was due to retire in a few months so something was seriously worrying him.

  • The FBI ‘lost’ the emails those looking for bias were after but fortunately, someone in the DOJ ‘found’ them.

  • The emails between McCabe and his staff showed the level of anti-Trump bias and how they were concerned about their careers and pensions more than finding the truth.

  • McCabe’s wife ran for office as a Democrat in 2015 and receive hundreds of thousands of dollars from Hillary’s people and Democrat donor.

STRZOK

  • Peter Strzok (FBI – Deputy Assistant Director Counterespionage) was removed by Mueller for anti-Trump bias. The emails said they should go easy on Clinton as an ‘insurance policy’ when she became President.

  • Strzok’s interviews are also troubling. He interviewed people like Flynn alone and without any form of recording. What he says was said in the interviews is the only evidence public has.

COMEY

  • FBI Director Comey was fired for leaking FBI info to a friend who was expected to leak it to the press.

  • Comey wrote a draft exonerating Clinton in the private server/classified information investigation months BEFORE he interviewed her. He was also concerned about Clinton becoming President and the effect that would have on his career. In his final report, he removed 5 references to ‘gross negligence’ which could have been used to jail or fine her.

Under Comey, the server the DNC said was hacked by Russians was NEVER INSPECTED BY THE FBI or other government agencies. The DNC wouldn’t give the FBI access but they did provide the FBI with a report done by a private company that works for the DNC. That report is what the intelligence communities report is based off.

Let’s clarify what this means: 1) claim a crime was committed 2) refuse to give the police access to the crime scene 3) give them a report you arranged and 4) the police go after the perpetrator you claimed was responsible. To quote Putin “Have you lost your mind?” Da, comrade Putin. Da.

THIS ENTIRE INVESTIGATION AND FISA SPYING SCANDAL ON PAGE (AND TRUMP) REVOLVES AROUND THE BELIEF THAT THE DNC SERVERS WERE HACKED BY RUSSIANS BUT NOBODY SEEMS CONCERNED THAT THE DNC SERVER WAS NEVER INVESTIGATED BY THE FBI OR ANY U.S. INTELLIGENCE AGENCY.

OHR

  • Ohr (DOJ - Deputy Attorney General) was demoted – twice. His wife worked for Fusion GPS (the source of the fake dossier) when the FBI / DOJ were investigating Trump. His wife passed on some Fusion GPS information to Ohr who then passed it on to the FBI. Ohr didn’t divulge that he got the information from his wife/Fusion GPS.

  • Ohr reported that when Steele spoke with him Steele told Ohr that he “was desperate that Donald Trump not get elected and was passionate about him not being president.”

ROSENSTEIN AND WRAY

  • Many are now waiting on Rosenstein – Dept Attorney General in DOJ to resign (very likely) and some are even suggesting that Wray, the new Trump appointed FBI Director who was called in to clean up the bias and corruption after Comey was fired, must resign too.

.

I think Dinesh DiSouza said it best: Anybody who says this is no big deal is saying they would happily see it done again.

Let’s come back to this in, say, six months. We’ll have a lot more facts to hammer into it then.

Still, what we need on threads like this is an agreement as to which of us is aligned with the irresistible force and which of us is aligned with the immovable object. :wink:

Chakra Superstar:
I won’t speak for Ucci but the OP asked whether political bias from the FBI is a fact or fiction and it has turned out to be a fact.

The Nunes memo is a summary of the House Intelligence Committee (HIC) investigation into the claim the FBI/DoJ Trump investigation was biased and that they abused their surveillance authority by spying. The gist of the summary is this:

  • Clinton PAID Fusion GPS $160K to get dirt on Trump

K: and the moon is in the sky, so what…

  • Fusion GPS hired Steele (ex-MI6)

K: actually the fact is, fusion was researching GOP candidates early in 2016 while
being paid by an GOP firm…later a law firm, Perkins Coie, retained Fusion GPS on
behalf of both Clinton and the DNC, roughly April, 2016… Fusion subcontracted
Steel, a retired M1-6 agent…Steele dossier circulated in them media during the fall
of fall 2016…and the existence of the dossier was revealed publicly by David Corn
of Mother Jones on OCT 31…too late to influence the election…on January 10, 2017
Buzz feed publish the entire dossier…

The dossier has 6 major points…1: Trump has cooperated with Russian Authorities for years…
the payoff for IQ45 was the Russian nationals who brought his property for a massive
increase of price… for example, his building was for sale for 8 million dollars,
and some Russian national bought it for 45 million dollars…therein lies possible
money laundry charges…

2: IQ45 is vulnerable to Russian blackmail on sexual matters… as the Russians
are supposed to have a tape of IQ45 being peed on by prostitutes in the Moscow
Ritz-Carlton…

3: there was a “well developed conspiracy of cooperation” between IQ45 and Russia…
which was managed by Manafort with Carter Page being the intermediary until
Manafort firing in Aug, 2016… afterward IQ45 personal lawyer, Michael Cohen played
an increasingly larger role in magaging the “Kremlin Relationship” this is similar to
what we are finding out today with details being slightly different…

4: IQ45 team know of and approved of the Russian plan to deliver E-MAILS
to WikiLeaks and offered them policy concessions in exchange… to date, as
far as we know, this hasn’t been proven…

5: Carter Page played a key role in the conspiracy…so far Page has denied under
oath, that he didn’t have such a role…and no proof has shown up but we don’t
know what Mueller knows…

6: Michael Cohen played a key role in the conspiracy… after Manafort was fired,
Cohen traveled to a European country, later claimed to be the Czech Republic for
a meeting in late August or early Sept… Cohen’s claims to have never been to
the Czech Republic, but he could have traveled via another Schengen area country
and like Manafort have multiple passports… both is possible…

Now the interesting thing about the Dossier is how much Steele didn’t find out…
for example, the dossier doesn’t mention Natalia Veselnitskaya who did arrange
the infamous Trump tower meeting on, June 16?..it doesn’t mention Papadolpolous
who has since pleaded guilty…

the problem with the entire GOP narrative about the dossier is how the FBI actually
became involved in this whole thing… in May 2016, during a night of heavy drinking,
Papadolpoulos, told the Australia’s ambassador to the UK, that Moscow had
thousands of emails that would embarrass Mrs. Clinton, stolen in an effort to try to
to damage her campaign… the Australian ambassador told his government who in
turned told the FBI… and then the FBI began to investigate both the Russian hacking itself
and the possible involvement of the IQ45 campaign which is before the FBI got the
dossier…so the link you are looking for happened BEFORE Steele took the dossier to
the FBI… this takes care of the dossier part of this rebuttal…

  • Steele paid Russian agents to collect dirt on Trump which means: CLINTON PAID RUSSIANS (VIA INTERMEDIARIES) TO INTERFERE IN THE ELECTIONS.

  • Steele contacted left-wing media and planted stories about Trump/Russian collusion.

  • The left-wing media ate it up and flooded the news outlets with fake news.

  • Steele then used the fake stories he leaked, and included them in his dossier to prove Trump was colluding with Russia – i.e. he quoted his own stories in the dossier to back up his fake narrative.

  • The Steele dossier included amateur research some of it seemingly lifted from Wikipedia, errors that were easily proven wrong (e.g. Page could not have met with Russians in Prague because he has NEVER been to Prague) and salacious stories like the one about Trump hating Obama so much that he hired the Moscow hotel room Obama stayed in and got prostitutes to piss on the bed Obama used etc.

  • Even though doubtful, the FBI accepted the information with almost NO VERIFICATION.

K: recall that the FBI was investigating this story BEFORE, getting the Dossier… so it was
just used as secondary information… and recall that to get a FISA warrant,
you need to get a sign off on a minimum of 6 FBI and Justice people… and every 90 days,
from a federal judge… if the FBI came to a FEDERAL judge with nothing, the judge
would have laughed them out of court… and in fact, it seems the judge did ask and was
told about the path of the dossier… which isn’t really relevant but one sole source
of information will not get you a FISA warrant…

  • The FBI then used the information (they believed to be largely untrue) to get a FISA spy warrant on Page (a Trump foreign affairs advisor) and thus by extension, spy on the communication going to and from Trump and his team.

  • The FBI didn’t tell the FISA court that the dossier was 1. virtually UNVERIFIED 2. written by a vehemently anti-Trump source with a history of lying or 3. that the source of the information used his own leaks to use in the dossier.

K: they did tell the judge and had to tell every single judge since then, recall, you
need to renew the FISA warrant every 90 days… and how do you know that steel is
an “vehemently anti-trump source with a history of lying”? inquiring minds want to know…

  • The FBI admitted under oath to Congress that they KNEW the information was fake. Knowing this, the FBI still used the fake information to extend their spy warrant on Page/Trump three times.

K: when? how do you know this?

This is NOT justice. Justice supposed to be blind; without fear or favour This is political bias in the extreme. For anyone who believes in the rule of law, an unbiased police and justice system and a functioning, fully-informed democracy, this should worry the shit out of you. If the Republicans were doing this shit to the Democrats, I have exactly the same response - no fear or favour. But this is beyond disgusting.
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[/quote]
K: me thinks you are protesting too much… I really wonder why you are so
afraid of this investigation…but the real problem lies in the right’s remarkable
turnaround…the right now loves Russia and Putin and hates America and
its institutions… if you don’t hate America and its institutions, why do
you keep attacking the FBI and its work? Why do you insist on damaging
the credibility and work of the FBI? the government and its institutions can
only work if they have the full faith and trust of the american citizens
and by attacking the FBI in particular and intellegence agencies
in general, you are damaging America in a very real and profound way…and
not only the FBI, but the justice department has come under heavy attack
and all that does us undermined our judicial system but hay, if you hate
america so much as to undermine the entire political system, you can
always move to Mother Russia… I am sure Putin would love you to
undermine America… he might even put you on the payroll with IQ45 and
his minons…you can troll on internet sites like this and make money
defending IQ45… wait a minute, you troll this sites with nonsense
and you clearly hate america and its institutions, you are paid by Putin…
I have some questions, are you paid in Rubles or in dollars? What kind of
401k plan does Russia have? do you have a medical plan?..

Kropotkin

Apparently Napoleon said something to the effect … “Don’t interfere with your enemies when they are killing each other”

Sounds like practical advice.

Napoleon aroused the consciousness of tens of millions of people … what was the population of Europe at the time … 100M ??

Putin has aroused the consciousness of 100’s of millions of people … simply the consequence of the historically largest populations at the moment combined with astronomically superior communications technology.

Putin like Napoleon before him is credited with the “arousal” … a human weakness … not a fact. Humans have a need to point to one person … their simple minds can’t deal with the complexity of the issue.

What are the consequences when such an “arousal” occurs within the species?

Like water heated in a closed container … at some point the lid will blow off.

The USA does not operate in a vacuum … despite the fact so many Americans think otherwise.

Parts of the dossier were released from June 2016 and continued to be released up to, and after, the elections. You’re being intentionally deceitful by using the date the FULL dossier was released. The constant flow of memos from the piss dossier fed the rapacious fake news media 24/7 from June onward running up to the elections.

I know anti-Trump Republicans started the Fusion GPS search for dirt on Trump but that’s irrelevant. Fusion GPS found nothing so the anti-Trump republicans stopped hiring them. For the anti-Trump Republicans, it ended there.

Fusion GPS however shopped around and Hillary decided to hire them and start her own tacky dirt operation. She paid $160 million and demanded they find something. Fusion GPS hired an ex-MI6 agent with a reputation for making bullshit up. They got their money; Clinton got her bullshit.

Some of that $160 million went to Russian agents which means:

HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS

So, who’s colluding with Russians to interfere in the elections again?

If the investigation was simply on Russian interference in the 2016 elections, then Hillary and Co. would be in jail. Unfortunately, it’s only focused on Trump colluding with Russians and the elections so she gets a ‘get out of jail’ card and he gets smeared as someone who rigged the elections.

PS: Did you know the Russians hired Podesta Group to push through the sale of 20% of U.S. Uranium production to Russia? Did you know that John Podesta was hired by Russians to lobby politicians to ease the sanctions on Russia? Did you know Bill Clinton met with Vlad when Hillary was Sec of State? Did you know that Bill Clinton was paid $500,000 from a Russian Bank (Moscow) involved in the Uranium sale? Did you know that Hillary got ‘donations’ from the participants after the sale of the Uranium deal went through? I admit this has nothing to do with tampering with the 2016 elections but it’s good to know that the Clintons/Democrats don’t hate Russia. It’s just part of the charade to cover their incompetence at losing the unlosable elections.

Next time you hear Papadolpolous Manafort, Page etc met with a Russian… talked to someone who had a friend who was Russian… or was drunk (Russian vodka no doubt) and said they he had all this information that nobody has seen, compare all that drunken stupor and gossip to the Clinton camp above. The Clinton camp WERE PAID BY RUSSIANS – OVER AND OVER AGAIN – TO DO RUSSIAN’S BIDDING FOR THEM. That is what collusion looks like. Getting money from foreign governments/interests and. in Hillary’s case, not declaring it aka hiding it.

How about supplying the dates these supposed (?) deals went through? I know he did deals in 2008 but who gives a fuck about what Trump did 5, 10 years ago? If what he did was a crime deal with it in a separate investigation. I’m not interested in protecting Trump from crimes he may have conducted in his past life. Throw the book at him if he’s guilty. I’m ONLY interested in keeping the focus on the what the investigation is about – colluding with Russia to interfere with the 2016 election.

“Supposed to have” :laughing: You don’t trust the Russians - except when it comes to dirt they ‘supposedly’ have on your political opponent. Then you believe them. The double standard of the left is too much.

Hey Pete, I’ve been told the Russians ‘supposed to have’ a tape of Huma pissing on Hillary’s face while Podesta wanks and watches. Do you believe that? It’s part of Steele’s dossier that hasn’t been released yet. It hasn’t been proven, there is no evidence but if we repeat it each day, people will start to believe there’s something in it. That’s how brainwashing happens.

A ‘well develop conspiracy to cooperate’ in what? :laughing: Again, the sleazy manipulation is breathtaking. Why didn’t you/your source say what they were cooperating in? Were they cooperating in their jobs? Were they cooperating in something that had nothing to do with Trump or Russia? Sleasy innuendo.

This style is typical of left-wing media and why left-wing media attracts people with no critical faculties. (I’m sure the right have their own sleazy style as well it’s just that I don’t see the right-wing press much). I get my information from non-aligned, non-corporate sources that treat people as adults who can think for themselves.

This is complete and total bullshit. Assange has denounced that so many times he’s sick of repeating himself.

“…to date, as far as we know, this hasn’t been proven” :astonished: shock horror.

"…and no proof has shown up " This is my point. At some time you’ll have to come to the awful realization that Jesus is a no-show, Santa doesn’t exist and Trump didn’t collude with the Russians to hack the DNC servers and throw the elections.

I’m not going to respond to the rest of your nonsense because you’ve just cut ‘n pasted material for Vox (or some other socialist website) and dumped it here. Apparently, you can’t think for yourself so why should I bother? I may as well argue with a bot. Sad.

.

Speaking of which consider this:

thedailybeast.com/donald-tr … n?ref=home

About two thirds of the way down, the author considers just that:

[b]Just look at his post-election behavior toward Russia, because if we’re going to play tag-the-traitor, let’s get to it. Trump’s abject, boot-licking obedience to Russia and Putin speaks for itself.

If it is treason you seek, look no further than a man who gladly allows Russia’s continued attacks on our democracy, our Republic and our institutions. Putin’s implacable hostility, aggression and desire to divide and disrupt this nation are not in question by anyone except Trump and his most slavish sycophants. Putin’s desire to weaken our standing, diminish our power and to harm our interests in the world is stated Russian policy, not speculations in the fevered minds of Never Trumpers.

When Congress sent Trump veto-proof legislation demanding he impose sanctions on Russia, Comrade Don waited until the last second to impose, well, nothing. When Putin arrested campaign opponent Alexei Navalny on phony charges, Vlad’s errand boy in the Oval Office remained silent.

For some reason, this President seems determined to demonstrate that he will do anything, at any time to please the Russian authoritarian. He will tear down the United States government around him to hide from accountability. He will wreck alliances, compromise intelligence sources, and endanger our troops to please Putin. There’s a word for that.

There is always a reckoning for treason. There is always a moment where justice and history strip away the excuses and rationalizations, and the betrayer is held to account.

One thing Donald Trump should have considered before launching Monday’s attack was just how vulnerable he is to the same accusation, and that reckoning. [/b]

Chakra Superstar:
I know anti-Trump Republicans started the Fusion GPS search for dirt on Trump but that’s irrelevant. Fusion GPS found nothing so the anti-Trump republicans stopped hiring them. For the anti-Trump Republicans, it ended there.

Fusion GPS however shopped around and Hillary decided to hire them and start her own tacky dirt operation. She paid $160 million and demanded they find something. Fusion GPS hired an ex-MI6 agent with a reputation for making bullshit up. They got their money; Clinton got her bullshit.

K: ummm, maybe 4 post ago, it was 160 thousand… and you repeated that number
and when I used that number, you didn’t say a word, so if you are going to lie, at least
keep the numbers right…

Chakra: Some of that $160 million went to Russian agents which means:

K: and who exactly?

Ch: HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS
HILLARY PAID RUSSIANS TO GET DIRT ON TRUMP AND INTERFERE IN THE 2016 ELECTIONS

K: I am reminded of the Simpsons beginning where Bart is writing on the Blackboard…
but of course, if you write it only 4 times, it can’t be true… you must write it 8 times
for it to be true…

Chakra: So, who’s colluding with Russians to interfere in the elections again?

K: ummmm, IQ45, why do you ask?

CH: If the investigation was simply on Russian interference in the 2016 elections, then Hillary and Co. would be in jail. Unfortunately, it’s only focused on Trump colluding with Russians and the elections so she gets a ‘get out of jail’ card and he gets smeared as someone who rigged the elections.

K: I find this very interesting in so far as if IQ45 went on TV today and confessed,
confessed everything about the Russian invesigation was right, you would still
find some means to deny that confession… because for you, the belief is
far more important then the truth…you have created this fantasy
conspiracy land that must be protected at all cost… if IQ45 did confess,
you would say, oh, the democrats and the liberal media somehow made him
falsely confess… your entire self worth is based on these conspiracy theories…
and what would happen to your own self validation if they were proven wrong?

either you would create new conspiracy theories to protect your ego or
you would have a nervous breakdown, as would most members of the
GOP…

Clinton on the other hand, has been the most investigated person ever in planet
earth’s history and despite all that, she has never, ever
been charged with or proven to do anything wrong…

but of course, your various conspiracy theories PROVE, that she
is guilty of something, evil and anti-american…

so you change the facts to suit your conspiracy narrative,
so Clinton goes from paying Fusion GPS 160,000 to 160 million dollars
in the space of 5 post… why, because it fits your narrative better…
your conspiracy theories… and that is because your entire self worth
is tied up in your faith in these theories…as for my self worth,
I am old and my self isn’t worth much these days…

truth is I am far too busy to engage in nonsensical conspiracy theories…

truth is, I only engaged in yours because I have been very, very busy with work and
study and writing and I needed a good laugh… thank you for that laugh…

nothing like a deranged conspiracy theory to make my day…

Kropotkin

And here we see a liberal anarchist defending FBI surveillance and secret courts for no reason at all other than this time they were used to benefit his favorite political party.

What’s your favorite political party? I don’t know because you’re always so objective and balanced.

They seem to have an amazing ability to deflect. Take the response to your last message. MR can’t bring himself to acknowledge the point you’ve made, so he’s re-framed it to attack your character. He knows what you’ve said is true, he knows his masters are behaving shamefully and by extension he feels ashamed because he associates himself and his identity with these people and/or would behave similarly himself if in a similar position. In order to reconcile this with the belief in or desire to be a “good person” or “right person” he projects the shameful behaviour onto his enemies/those who attracted his ire.

As you pointed out Ucci, with P’s previous post we see the other methods they use to reconcile their broken beliefs and behaviours with being correct or decent. Similar to the above is the tactic of pointing at a past or perceived behaviour of a political opponent and either claming or insinuating that this gives them the moral authority to do the same. Or in P’s case you just make up hypothetical situations placing your opponent in the villain’s position (aka making up an alternate reality) or jumping to highly conjectural conclusions and presenting them as facts or meaningful in any sense.

The most lazy tactic in the bag is labeling something a “conspiracy theory” and not only dismissing the behaviour/idea, but using the fact that they labeled it as a conspiracy theory somehow as a point in their favour. Also odd is that they don’t seem to know what the word means to begin with.

I can’t see a single point in either of Ucci’s or Chakra’s positions that are even actually addressed by their respondents. The replies look like high school social media trolling.

Regardless, as time goes on we seem to be slowly finding out more and more about who did what. The Left’s only power at this point is it’s control over the media.

Isn’t this just an ad hominem argument (in the technical sense of that term, not the colloquial use more common on ILP)? My first reaction to your point here was to point out that I’m not a Democrat, and my preferred political campaign got dumped on like crazy by a press that, whatever their other biases, is yet more uniform in supporting our two-party system. But if that’s how I must respond to this claim, then this is a claim that I, personally, can’t make the argument that I’m making, with the corollary implication that maybe someone else could so long as they usually vote Republican.

Me being ingenuous isn’t a premise of my argument, and nothing I’m saying requires anyone to trust me.

I don’t think this response works. It seems like you’re saying that it would be OK to treat journalism as distinct from politics so long as journalism reaches a certain conclusion (or doesn’t reach certain conclusions). But that’s an argument from consequences.

If instead the argument is that the press (which as you use it must exclude Fox, WSJ, Breitbart, and other right-leaning outfits, which are a minority but not insignificant) tends to lean left, and therefore must be in the pocket of the DNC, I don’t think that follows. National and global media will select for people who are college graduates (leans left), liberal arts majors (leans left), coastal (leans left), globalist (leans left), etc. etc. (leans left). More generally, people that think that information and education are the key to a prosperous society, i.e. people that buy into the whole aim of news gathering and reporting, are likely to lean left. There’s no need to posit anything more sinister (pun intended) than that the press as an institution is left-leaning by nature.

And a consequence of that is that they will be drawn to the left politicians they will likely vote for, they’re scorn the right politicians that they disagree with, and left politicians will give them greater access and right politicians less access (c.f. Fox’s coverage of and level of access to politicians on the right).

But here again: we should decide before we get here whether the group of people who gather and report information about the unfolding of history should be treated as distinct from the people who run the government. It does not seem sound to say that we should treat them as distinct if and only if the information that gets gathered, or the tone in which it gets reported, supports the people I would like to see run the government.

And I take from your ingenuousness point that you agree, and if so it should cut both ways: perhaps it’s easy for me to endorse the distinction, because I too am a coastal globalist blue state liberal arts major, and it is easier for you to reject the distinction insofar as you’ve rejected your blue state coastal liberal arts roots, but we agree that neither of those are good arguments for or against the distinction.

So I propose this: we should support the distinction insofar as it is real, i.e. insofar as there is no coordination between press and politics, and that is despite how the press may end up supporting positions we don’t like. Fair?

The point I made above with respect to the press has interesting parallels to collusion with foreign governments: Putin can run all the pro-Trump bot armies he wants if Trump is just sitting by and watching, but if they coordinate it’s a different case. Certain conduct can be illegal if coordinated, even if the same conduct would be illegal if done without that coordination. Fair?

And if that’s so, and if members of the Trump campaign were having conversations, the possibility that they were coordinating is live. In other areas of law, the line between conversation and coordination is very thin, and it should be here given how easy it is to coordinate without coordinating. For example, in finance, expressing a desire for the spoils of an act (e.g. “We’ve got some emails we stole from your opponent that we want to give you, what do you think?”, “I love it.”) would probably count as breaching the “Chinese walls” used to silo groups receiving non-public information.

My point being, it may not take much to turn otherwise lawful conduct into unlawful coordination, and its lawfulness can hinge on whether or not it was coordinated. Is any of that wrong? Or maybe, should it be wrong? It seems clear that part of the disagreement here is that people that like what Trump is saying and/or doing are OK with acts that might technically qualify as illegal, and people that don’t like his words and/or actions want to hold him to the letter of the law. So, how should we deal with a political campaign coordinating with a foreign government, particularly one that is currently under sanctions and that we have reason to believe broke US laws to influence our election? This seems like something the founders had strong feelings about, are those concerns no longer relevant? What level of coordination is too much?

It also seems pretty clear that there are legitimate allegations against both sides of tu quoque and special pleading. And for better or worse our legal system actually depends on having laws that only get enforced some of the time and at the discretion of a lot of people, and often people in explicitly political offices. That’s why I keep going back to what [i]should[/] be the case, what we’re actually OK with rather than what’s technically permitted/prohibited. Perhaps that too is a politically tinged question; people will be actually OK with Clinton doing things they aren’t OK with Trump doing and vice versa , and they’ll make ad hoc arguments about the specifics to justify a distinction.

This just isn’t born out by the facts. Everyone that Trump has pointed to as a Democratic conspirator is literally a Republican, and the most significant thing the FBI did with respect to the election was release a letter that probably changed the outcome of the election in Trump’s favor.

You really take the Nunes memo as dispositive? Setting asides the flaws within the memo, at best it only describes part of why the FISA warrant was issued, and we have nothing to compare it to because we don’t know what standard usually applies to FISA warrants. (EDIT: this poorly worded. We do know what the standard is, but we don’t have precedent for how it applies in practice in FISA courts.)

But Nunes didn’t even see the warrant application before writing a memo about it, and he’s since acknowledged that the headline omission wasn’t actually an omission, he just didn’t know that the political motive behind the dossier was indeed disclosed in the warrant application because he never saw the warrant application.

I thought D’Souza was a Trump supporter. But he makes a good point, what Trump’s doing is a big deal.

…see what I did there?

But would you agree that this sort of thing is happening to both left and right? Dems used to care about infrastructure and be anti-secret-courts, now they aren’t. The Republicans used to be anti-deficit and care about sex scandals. Now they don’t.

K: a couple of different things… First of all, I didn’t actually defend them,
I helped make clear what the FISA procedure was, I actually disagree with
and hope they do away with the entire FISA program… but I am one voice
in the wilderness…finally, THANK GOD, finally someone realizises that I am
a former anarchist, and not a communist… about fucking time…

and as far as the part of “benefiting my favorite political party”…
well, if my favorite political party is the party that is
in fact, in favor of what democracy we have, in favor of
tolerance and justice and promotes honesty and integrety
and against Putin and believes that to attack the integrety of
the FBI and the Justice departement damages and hurts America
here at home and around the world and favors science over witchcraft
and faith base medicine and believes that religion is a private matter
between a person and their god, then yes, I am quite glad to
have something benefit my “favorite political party”

as oppose to my least favorite political party which favors dictatorship
and loves Putin and hates America, as it attacks American institutions
like the FBI and the Justice and loves injustice and economic inequality
and intolorance against anyone who isn’t white and upper class…
hates science and hopes that the police can shoot anyone anywhere
without any consequences unless that person is white, then gosh darn,
the police is out of control… loves white privilege because those darn
pesky black and brown people are taking jobs away from us white people…
to belong to the party that thinks that the laws are a pesky pain in the ass that
keeps white people from keeping black slaves…

yeh… I think anything that benefits my favorite political party is great…

Kropotkin

#-o

Perhaps the GOP is reaching for a new low in trying to ascertain whether the Brit intelligence whose information supposedly gave momentum to the warrant and finally the memo, was biased toward the Clinton presidency . if this process to be the case, will it give a sign of another brick in the wall for the claim that the whole nine yarsds, the Deep State, the Justice Dept and the intelligence services all had something to do with the granting of the warrant to monitor the REPUBLICAN campaign? Will this finding, if left untampered, finally give some clues ? Or is this another plant of accommodation for the Right, most of whom have been implicitly consemned to be purveyors of conspiracy? Are we coming to some kind of rational man’s approximately certain knowledge of what the real facts are?

. The deep inquiry into the British agent’s leaning should not be interpreted in a demeaning manner, and that’s not the message here, but irrespective of the result, it may effect the overall result diminutively, in accordance to a curve , pitting
the extent of influence of his views against the change of opinions of the overlaying opinions of other effected people involved. By the time it reaches the memo, its effect may diminish accordingly.

It is not a tie breaker for that reason