Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must

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Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:43 pm

Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Given evolution and evil, is the Gnostic Christian myth more intelligent than the Christian myth?
The Gnostic Christian myth explains evil quite nicely as compared to what Christianity has produced.

Doing evil must have conscious volition. In law, they call that idea, mens rea. It is the cornerstone of secular and religious law and shows guilt and the knowledge that one is doing evil to another. When present, that is the only time sin can be applied to mankind.

Gnostic Christians posit an evil God, Yahweh, because of his creation of the evolutionary system in place. This system forces us to do evil to others when we win competitions. We must compete to survive and thrive. We must do evil and that is why we see Yahweh as evil. In a more modern sense, not so much evil as a necessary evil. In the Gnostic Christian view, this allows hope that there is another God above Yahweh that might have a better system that excludes that evil. Yahweh then is just our idea of a system we do not like for it’s evils, and we actually hope to be wrong in our evaluation of reality.

Do you recognize that you must do evil to survive and that the Gnostic Christian myth is a better way to explain evil than the Christian myth does?

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:53 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Do you recognize that you must do evil to survive and that the Gnostic Christian myth is a better way to explain evil than the Christian myth does?

Note: when you ask 'do you recognize X'
yes, it is in the form of a question, however it is presenting as certain that X is the case. It includes a statement of what YOU CONSIDER TO BE A STATEMENT OF FACT.
At least have the honesty to take responsibility for what you are doing: presenting deductive proofs and presenting facts.
Not 'merely asking questions'.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:25 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Do you recognize that you must do evil to survive and that the Gnostic Christian myth is a better way to explain evil than the Christian myth does?

Note: when you ask 'do you recognize X'
yes, it is in the form of a question, however it is presenting as certain that X is the case. It includes a statement of what YOU CONSIDER TO BE A STATEMENT OF FACT.
At least have the honesty to take responsibility for what you are doing: presenting deductive proofs and presenting facts.
Not 'merely asking questions'.


I did present facts. Perhaps you did not notice.

The fact is you have to compete.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Anomaly654 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:31 pm

Gnostic Christians posit an evil God, Yahweh, because of his creation of the evolutionary system in place. This system forces us to do evil to others when we win competitions. We must compete to survive and thrive.

I'm only peripherally aware of Gnostic beliefs, but I've never heard the 'evil God' idea in the little I've read of their doctrine. Is this a modern aberration or something that's been attached to Gnostic Christianity from the beginning?

Doing evil must have conscious volition.

But Christian doctrine seems to suggest that not all, perhaps not even very much, of the evil we produce is consciously done. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." I suspect psychology supports orthodoxy, we're well known for creating subconscious excuses/reasons for the evil we commit. The fact that we create excuses suggests knowledge on subconscious levels of right-wrong differences that are largely blocked from full consciousness.

We must compete to survive and thrive. We must do evil and that is why we see Yahweh as evil.

Most competition to survive and thrive--depending of course on how this would be defined--can be done without committing evil, again depending on how evil is defined. This proposition is questionable if not problematic.

In the Gnostic Christian view, this allows hope that there is another God above Yahweh that might have a better system that excludes that evil. Yahweh then is just our idea of a system we do not like for it’s evils, and we actually hope to be wrong in our evaluation of reality.

A religion that posits an evil God but hopes that a better God exists--but calls itself "Christian"--sounds pretty screwed up, frankly. Doesn't this just mean you're an agnostic?

Do you recognize that you must do evil to survive and that the Gnostic Christian myth is a better way to explain evil than the Christian myth does?

No. This doesn't get past the logical stage to even make it to theology. I suggest that goods and evils are effects, not causes. Good derives from the true (truth is logically higher and prior to good according to at least Aquinas, maybe others) and evil from the false. Each possesses a dynamic that produces its effects. The power of truth is of organization, union, harmony, perfection [goods]. That of falsity is disorganization, opposition, discord, chaos [evils]. Left unchecked by truth, the false would run a course toward implosion, decimation and eternal death. If seems to follow that the idea of a primarily evil God and universe is incoherent. The Christian Universalist position--that existents are fragmentally falsified in a primarily true universe seems much more coherent. Well, it's my position, anyway until the rest of Christian Universalists come to recognize it as a predominantly superior doctrine.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:04 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
Gnostic Christians posit an evil God, Yahweh, because of his creation of the evolutionary system in place. This system forces us to do evil to others when we win competitions. We must compete to survive and thrive.

I'm only peripherally aware of Gnostic beliefs, but I've never heard the 'evil God' idea in the little I've read of their doctrine. Is this a modern aberration or something that's been attached to Gnostic Christianity from the beginning?


https://www.google.ca/search?source=hp& ... Sc-UeCRY-s

The demiurge has always been considered to be a vile loser mainly because he created evil and antagonistic to all that is purely spiritual.

Not to mention that Yahweh is portrayed as a genocidal son murdering God that Christians somehow see as good.

Doing evil must have conscious volition.

But Christian doctrine seems to suggest that not all, perhaps not even very much, of the evil we produce is consciously done. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." I suspect psychology supports orthodoxy, we're well known for creating subconscious excuses/reasons for the evil we commit. The fact that we create excuses suggests knowledge on subconscious levels of right-wrong differences that are largely blocked from full consciousness.


We use the term mens rea in our legal system to show culpability or not in what some will see as evil.

If we are oblivious to the losers of our competitions then I guess we could say that no evil was done, or that there is no culpability for it, but all who compete know that they do not want to be losers to those competitions so I do not see how they could be that oblivious of the loser and how he would feel that evil has come his way.

Can people hide that in their subconscious, I don't know. Does it enter everyone's mind? I don't know.

We must compete to survive and thrive. We must do evil and that is why we see Yahweh as evil.

Most competition to survive and thrive--depending of course on how this would be defined--can be done without committing evil, again depending on how evil is defined. This proposition is questionable if not problematic.


In our societies where we have safety nets, the evil is small. If you happen to live where there are none, you winning a competition might have some loser starve to death.
In the Gnostic Christian view, this allows hope that there is another God above Yahweh that might have a better system that excludes that evil. Yahweh then is just our idea of a system we do not like for it’s evils, and we actually hope to be wrong in our evaluation of reality.

A religion that posits an evil God but hopes that a better God exists--but calls itself "Christian"--sounds pretty screwed up, frankly. Doesn't this just mean you're an agnostic?


No and I do not call myself Christian. Gnostic Christian is a whole different breed. We are free thinkers while Christians are idol worshipers.
Do you recognize that you must do evil to survive and that the Gnostic Christian myth is a better way to explain evil than the Christian myth does?

No. This doesn't get past the logical stage to even make it to theology. I suggest that goods and evils are effects, not causes. Good derives from the true (truth is logically higher and prior to good according to at least Aquinas, maybe others) and evil from the false. Each possesses a dynamic that produces its effects. The power of truth is of organization, union, harmony, perfection [goods]. That of falsity is disorganization, opposition, discord, chaos [evils]. Left unchecked by truth, the false would run a course toward implosion, decimation and eternal death. If seems to follow that the idea of a primarily evil God and universe is incoherent. The Christian Universalist position--that existents are fragmentally falsified in a primarily true universe seems much more coherent. Well, it's my position, anyway until the rest of Christian Universalists come to recognize it as a predominantly superior doctrine.


Gnostic Christianity is a Universalist creed. We have tied equality to righteousness.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

" I suggest that goods and evils are effects,"

I agree and person to person evil is an effect of competition as it creates a victim or loser to the competition.

"Good derives from the true (truth is logically higher and prior to good according to at least Aquinas, maybe others) and evil from the false."

Yet evil is produced for the loser knowing the truth of his losing a competition. No?

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Anomaly654 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:20 pm

Okay, I read the bit on righteousness. What was said about God in that piece is that He's a giver, but you characterize Him as evil. Where in Gnostic literature is God deemed evil?

You're difficult to follow. On the one hand, you say,
I do not call myself Christian. Gnostic Christian is a whole different breed. We are free thinkers while Christians are idol worshipers.

....yet posted this in the op....
Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Given evolution and evil, is the Gnostic Christian myth more intelligent than the Christian myth?
The Gnostic Christian myth explains evil quite nicely as compared to what Christianity has produced.

Gnostic Christians posit an evil God, Yahweh, because of his creation of the evolutionary system in place. This system forces us to do evil to others when we win competitions. We must compete to survive and thrive. We must do evil and that is why we see Yahweh as evil. In a more modern sense, not so much evil as a necessary evil. In the Gnostic Christian view, this allows hope that there is another God above Yahweh that might have a better system that excludes that evil.

I took this to mean you are referring to yourself and others who hold the same [Gnostic Christian] beliefs as you. Is this incorrect? Were you speaking of Gnostic Christians in third person, from outside this sphere of belief?

Atheists and Agnostics commonly call themselves 'free thinkers', I suspect it gives them a much needed sense of superiority. Plus, you throw the term "Gnostic" around a lot, but post views more in tune with the anti-theists. What are you really GIA?
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby phyllo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:38 pm

You're difficult to follow. On the one hand, you say,
He calls himself a Gnostic Christian but he's actually an atheist.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:35 pm

Anomaly654 wrote:
Okay, I read the bit on righteousness. What was said about God in that piece is that He's a giver, but you characterize Him as evil. Where in Gnostic literature is God deemed evil?


I characterize Yahweh as evil but he is not the God we follow. We are perpetual; seekers and seek God. We, as free thinkers do not idol worship any supernatural God.

We have separated what we believe from our myths, which were written as discussion papers. Not something we believed. They show the supernatural and no one can know anything concrete about the supernatural as it is an imaginary realm.

This link shows why we call Yahweh evil.

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/P ... ticism.htm

These quotes show where we find the only God we can ever find or truly know. Ourselves.

Think in a more Eastern religion way.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You're difficult to follow. On the one hand, you say,
I do not call myself Christian. Gnostic Christian is a whole different breed. We are free thinkers while Christians are idol worshipers.

....yet posted this in the op....
Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We must do evil.

Given evolution and evil, is the Gnostic Christian myth more intelligent than the Christian myth?
The Gnostic Christian myth explains evil quite nicely as compared to what Christianity has produced.

Gnostic Christians posit an evil God, Yahweh, because of his creation of the evolutionary system in place. This system forces us to do evil to others when we win competitions. We must compete to survive and thrive. We must do evil and that is why we see Yahweh as evil. In a more modern sense, not so much evil as a necessary evil. In the Gnostic Christian view, this allows hope that there is another God above Yahweh that might have a better system that excludes that evil.

I took this to mean you are referring to yourself and others who hold the same [Gnostic Christian] beliefs as you. Is this incorrect?


No. I think I show what the new Gnostics Christians believe. You have to remember though that as free thinkers, we do not see all things the same exact way. Like all of us though, I can only really speak for myself.

Gnostic Christianity is hard to teach when the world has been filled by the lies that people say of what we believe as those lies come from the winners of the God wars. They muddied up history when they wrote it to make themselves look better.

Were you speaking of Gnostic Christians in third person, from outside this sphere of belief?


No. I took that label and give what I think it means to be a Gnostic Christian.

Atheists and Agnostics commonly call themselves 'free thinkers', I suspect it gives them a much needed sense of superiority.


The style of thinking does not speak to the quality of thought, free thinkers know this, so I do not agree with you.

I see theists as being more as you describe as they speak with the swollen ego assuredness that God is on their side.

Plus, you throw the term "Gnostic" around a lot, but post views more in tune with the anti-theists. What are you really GIA?


I am a man with what I think is a decent moral sense, born of my criminal mind and delinquent attitude, who does not mind taking the heat for calling out the immoral mainstream religions.

Both Christianity and Islam, slave holding ideologies, have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions. Both religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.

Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.

Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxoxPapPxXk

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:38 pm

phyllo wrote:
You're difficult to follow. On the one hand, you say,
He calls himself a Gnostic Christian but he's actually an atheist.


Not yet. You might wonder why you throw an insult at me. Bully ass hole.

Atheists are getting closer to what a Gnostic Christian thinks like as they are forming atheist churches.

They are getting brighter over time and might catch up to our best of all ideologies.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby phyllo » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:59 pm

Not yet. You might wonder why you throw an insult at me. Bully ass hole.
What insult?

You have written that all gods are myths.

That technically makes you an atheist. Straight forward conclusion which comes directly from the definition of the word.

So what are you upset about, exactly?

If you didn't write it, then I must have you confused with someone else and I apologize.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:12 pm

phyllo wrote:
Not yet. You might wonder why you throw an insult at me. Bully ass hole.
What insult?

You have written that all gods are myths.

That technically makes you an atheist. Straight forward conclusion which comes directly from the definition of the word.

So what are you upset about, exactly?

If you didn't write it, then I must have you confused with someone else and I apologize.
There are a lot of different gnostics. If you think, however, that Yahweh is the demiurge, then you generally think there is a God behind that false God. I have some sympathy for that beliefs system, given the state of things here on earth. So perhaps he means that the gods in the other religions are myths. But he has no need to be coy.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:54 pm

phyllo wrote:
Not yet. You might wonder why you throw an insult at me. Bully ass hole.
What insult?

You have written that all gods are myths.

That technically makes you an atheist. Straight forward conclusion which comes directly from the definition of the word.

So what are you upset about, exactly?

If you didn't write it, then I must have you confused with someone else and I apologize.


If I wanted to call myself an atheist, I would. I am a Gnostic Christian, in part, because I define the word God as they did and am a perpetual seeker of that God.

I also believe that that search needs churches and although atheists are now creating atheist churches, they are not yet at the Gnostic Christian level or mind set. Most atheists do not yet recognize the tribal nature of man and how it is assuaged by the fellowship that a church gives individuals.

Atheists tend to let the harm that organized religions do override their view of the bigger system. Not all of course, but most at this point in time. We will have to see if atheists can get their act together or not.

My above post and reaction was a bit knee jerk. Apologies. I should have taken the time to correct you in a more civil way.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:09 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
phyllo wrote:
Not yet. You might wonder why you throw an insult at me. Bully ass hole.
What insult?

You have written that all gods are myths.

That technically makes you an atheist. Straight forward conclusion which comes directly from the definition of the word.

So what are you upset about, exactly?

If you didn't write it, then I must have you confused with someone else and I apologize.
There are a lot of different gnostics. If you think, however, that Yahweh is the demiurge, then you generally think there is a God behind that false God. I have some sympathy for that beliefs system, given the state of things here on earth. So perhaps he means that the gods in the other religions are myths. But he has no need to be coy.


Thanks, and true to a large extent.

All the supernatural God are man made. In Gnostic Christian tradition, we are all sons of God.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

We have traditionally followed this teaching above from one of the Jesus archetypes that we see in scriptures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes ... r_embedded

In the early days, the word God was defined as unknowable and unfathomable and nameless. God was defined more as
the best rules and laws that people could come up with. Gnostic Christians, as esoteric ecumenists, use that definition and since everyone has their own opinion on these rules, we call God I am and mean ourselves.

All hell broke loose when some foolish religions became idol worshiping cults, like Christianity and Islam.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D

Explaining Gnostic Christianity is not an easy task and there is a lot of confusion and most people do not want to take the time to get the ideology.

I am also not likely the best teacher.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:17 am

So do you believe in the existence of a God or not?

(a non-supernatural God of course and besides calling yourself God)
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:16 pm

Greatest I am wrote:Thanks, and true to a large extent.

All the supernatural God are man made.
This statement is the one that stand out. All the supernatural Gods. (?) In the Gnosticism's I am aware the are other supernatural beings. The mother of the Demiurge and/or the creator. The adjective 'supernatural' is a really confused term in most discussions, but the creator is generally beyond nature even if it encompasses it also. If your God is not supernatural, that is beyond nature, then that God is immanent. But that causes problems in any system with a Demiurge since than that God would be created by the Demiurge since THIS which we live in is the Demiurge's creation. So you might want to go into what you mean by supernatural and I think Phyllo's request to know if you are a theist is a pretty straightforward request.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:00 pm

phyllo wrote:So do you believe in the existence of a God or not?

(a non-supernatural God of course and besides calling yourself God)


As far as I can discern, there are no supernatural Gods.

I think more like the intelligent ancients did before the mainstream religions like Christianity and Islam became idol worshipers and began killing for their imaginary Gods.

This link is a good explanation of that intelligent way of thinking.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:Thanks, and true to a large extent.

All the supernatural God are man made.
This statement is the one that stand out. All the supernatural Gods. (?) In the Gnosticism's I am aware the are other supernatural beings. The mother of the Demiurge and/or the creator. The adjective 'supernatural' is a really confused term in most discussions, but the creator is generally beyond nature even if it encompasses it also. If your God is not supernatural, that is beyond nature, then that God is immanent. But that causes problems in any system with a Demiurge since than that God would be created by the Demiurge since THIS which we live in is the Demiurge's creation. So you might want to go into what you mean by supernatural and I think Phyllo's request to know if you are a theist is a pretty straightforward request.


I answered him just above. Please have a look.

This short link shows the thinking behind my view that all the supernatural Gods are man made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ1PDxeUynA

As to the demiurge, you have to remember that our myths were written to enhance the discussions debates for seeking the best laws and rules to live by, which is basically how modern Gnostic Christians define God since the original meaning has been corrupted by the idol worshipers.

Our myths did enhance the seeking of God, when all people knew that all that was written of God was myth and not reality.

The link I put in the previous response to our friend phylio speaks to this.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby phyllo » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:16 pm

As far as I can discern, there are no supernatural Gods.

I think more like the intelligent ancients did before the mainstream religions like Christianity and Islam became idol worshipers and began killing for their imaginary Gods.

This link is a good explanation of that intelligent way of thinking.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
So you believe in a God whose nature is as she explained in the video.

That wasn't difficult at all. I don't know why you couldn't just say so in the first place.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:20 pm

phyllo wrote:
As far as I can discern, there are no supernatural Gods.

I think more like the intelligent ancients did before the mainstream religions like Christianity and Islam became idol worshipers and began killing for their imaginary Gods.

This link is a good explanation of that intelligent way of thinking.

http://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2
So you believe in a God whose nature is as she explained in the video.

That wasn't difficult at all. I don't know why you couldn't just say so in the first place.


Yes. I believe as the more intelligent ancients thought.

I tend to speak to whatever the post I am looking at says.

I do admit to a poor memory of prior posts.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:34 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
This short link shows the thinking behind my view that all the supernatural Gods are man made.

I'll check out the video another time. The phrase supernatural God is redundant. If there is a type of entity that is not supernatural, it is not a god, let alone God.
I hear Karen Armstrong - who does not sound like a gnostic to me - is saying that we anthropomorphize God and shouldn't. This does not mean that God is not supernatural. Again in the gnosticism's I've read God tends to be transcendent, which is beyond nature.

You earlier said something about God being in the rules for best realtions or ethical bahavior or something. 1) that's not gnostic 2) there is no need to use the word God. Unless you mean that that is where we can come in contact with an otherwise not directly accessible God. That could be gnostic. But you still have a supernatural entity then.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:20 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
Greatest I am wrote:
This short link shows the thinking behind my view that all the supernatural Gods are man made.

I'll check out the video another time. The phrase supernatural God is redundant. If there is a type of entity that is not supernatural, it is not a god, let alone God.
I hear Karen Armstrong - who does not sound like a gnostic to me - is saying that we anthropomorphize God and shouldn't. This does not mean that God is not supernatural. Again in the gnosticism's I've read God tends to be transcendent, which is beyond nature.

You earlier said something about God being in the rules for best realtions or ethical bahavior or something. 1) that's not gnostic 2) there is no need to use the word God. Unless you mean that that is where we can come in contact with an otherwise not directly accessible God. That could be gnostic. But you still have a supernatural entity then.


No. Gnostic Christians holds no supernatural content and you might recall how Emperors used to name themselves Gods and their sons sons of God.

Does this Gnostic saying sound like we believe in some supernatural being?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those speak of God in the more eastern religion way and not the foolish western religion way.

So do these quotes.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty.

One of the main points of Gnostic Christianity is free thinking and the perpetual seeking after God as defined as the best rules and laws to live by. Nothing supernatural.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:25 pm

Greatest I am wrote:
No. Gnostic Christians holds no supernatural content
I don't think that's true. It's not that I want to convince you that you believe in supernatural things, but it would be silly to call oneself a Christian of any kind if one did not. Could you define supernatural, just to make sure we are not having a word problem.

and you might recall how Emperors used to name themselves Gods and their sons sons of God.
Not sure what the relevance of this is.

Does this Gnostic saying sound like we believe in some supernatural being?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
This sounds very supernatural. It is not an experience that, for example, a realist would consider meaningful. Nor a natural realist. Nor a scientist. Nor most secular intellectuals.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
AGain, yup, sounds very supernatural. How can someone's father make house inside me. Now, of course, they could be speaking metaphorically.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those speak of God in the more eastern religion way and not the foolish western religion way.
predestinate refers to a supernatural process. And eastern religions - all religions having supernatural facets, are still religions. I think we must have a definition of supernatural before we can go on.

So do these quotes.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty.

One of the main points of Gnostic Christianity is free thinking and the perpetual seeking after God as defined as the best rules and laws to live by. Nothing supernatural.
Then why call it a religion? Why use the word God, with a capital G even?
Why not say you are seeking to know yourself? You could consider yourself socratic. The use of the word God assumes supernatural entities and/or processes.
Gnosticism should also be avoided as a term for what you believe since the gnosticisms believed that their was a divinde spark within us related to God who did exist outside us. Note that Jesus above wants people to focus inside themselves but also adds AND IT IS OUTSIDE YOU.

Gnostic Christian is clearly a supernatural formulation. Supernatural : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil

You use the term God, you have Jesus related scripture, ALL gnosticism believe their is a way to learn about what is beyond the visible observable universe.

Going by all the uses of these word I know and can find.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Greatest I am » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:06 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:[
quote="Greatest I am"]

No. Gnostic Christians holds no supernatural content
I don't think that's true. It's not that I want to convince you that you believe in supernatural things, but it would be silly to call oneself a Christian of any kind if one did not. Could you define supernatural, just to make sure we are not having a word problem.


The dictionary does a good job. Whatever it gives I agree with.

and you might recall how Emperors used to name themselves Gods and their sons sons of God.
Not sure what the relevance of this is.


Just showing that the word God applied to people.
Does this Gnostic saying sound like we believe in some supernatural being?

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
This sounds very supernatural. It is not an experience that, for example, a realist would consider meaningful. Nor a natural realist. Nor a scientist. Nor most secular intellectuals.


You are quite wrong as a realist, especially a natural realist, knows that the ideal for any species, which we would term as God, is one of their own.

A lion looks to a lion for his ideal ideology and God. So should man.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
AGain, yup, sounds very supernatural. How can someone's father make house inside me. Now, of course, they could be speaking metaphorically.


Look up Jung and Freud's Father Complex and you will recognize that you too have an internal set of instincts that guide you. The word Father has been used to designate that set of instincts way before Christ used it.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those speak of God in the more eastern religion way and not the foolish western religion way.
predestinate refers to a supernatural process. And eastern religions - all religions having supernatural facets, are still religions. I think we must have a definition of supernatural before we can go on.


What do you have against Webster?

If I say that the sun will rise tomorrow, is that predestination supernatural. No. I thus refute your claim.

So do these quotes.

Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.
If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.
Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.
[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.
But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."


As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty.

One of the main points of Gnostic Christianity is free thinking and the perpetual seeking after God as defined as the best rules and laws to live by. Nothing supernatural.
Then why call it a religion? Why use the word God, with a capital G even?


Because it is a religion and it uses the word God. I do not have the power or desire to change all the Gnostic Christian traditions because those are what define Gnostic Christianity. You would have me invent a whole new religion. No thanks.

Why not say you are seeking to know yourself? You could consider yourself socratic. The use of the word God assumes supernatural entities and/or processes.


We do say we try to know ourselves. That is part of the definition of Gnosis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9QI3nlinYQ

It is not my fault if the term God is misapplied and if you look at the definition you will see that you are adding to the definition. Pick whatever dictionary you prefer and see the truth.

Gnosticism should also be avoided as a term for what you believe since the gnosticisms believed that their was a divinde spark within us related to God who did exist outside us. Note that Jesus above wants people to focus inside themselves but also adds AND IT IS OUTSIDE YOU.


Indeed as he knew how to look.

What do you see? Likely it is not the evolving perfection a Gnostic Christian sees.

I see the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given our past. That best is perfection to me as it has me in it. That perfection evolves all the time.

What do you see?

Gnostic Christian is clearly a supernatural formulation. Supernatural : of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil


As I said, no. It is rather presumptuous of you to tell me what I believe or what my religion believes. You are trying to make me a literalist to myths and I am telling you that we are not literalists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02cia ... =PLCBF574D
You use the term God, you have Jesus related scripture, ALL gnosticism believe their is a way to learn about what is beyond the visible observable universe.

Going by all the uses of these word I know and can find.
[/quote]

Science is saying the same of black matter. That is not supernatural anymore than Gnostic Christian beliefs are.

We do not look at the unseen the same way today as we did in ancient days.

Are radio waves visible? Not to the naked eye, but they are at the subatomic level.

Gnostic Christianity posits a mental condition that allows access to the all. Oneness some call it. Some of the eastern religions posit the same thing. That telepathic connection is as far as we go in believing in what cannot be seen.

That oneness does not include angels and demons which re fictitious characters like all the supernatural Gods.

As to the Christian view, they keep talking of the one and only God when their own first commandment posits many Gods.

Place no Gods above me indicates that there are more Gods than one.

Iconography in the Vatican places God in our minds as shown in the creation painting. In that Gnostic Christianity agree as that notion was likely usurped by Christians from Gnostic Christians.

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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Greatest I am wrote:The dictionary does a good job. Whatever it gives I agree with.
Then I cannot see where the word God comes in. There should be a much clearer way to describe your beliefs without the word God.

Just showing that the word God applied to people.

But those royals meant that they were partly supernatural. They did not mean they were merely people.

You are quite wrong as a realist, especially a natural realist, knows that the ideal for any species, which we would term as God, is one of their own.
Could you rephrase that, I don't know what you are trying to say.

A lion looks to a lion for his ideal ideology and God. So should man.
What did you add when you added the word God in that sentence?

Look up Jung and Freud's Father Complex and you will recognize that you too have an internal set of instincts that guide you. The word Father has been used to designate that set of instincts way before Christ used it.
Jesus said 'my Father'. He did not say 'your FAther'. That would be a poor way to indicate a Father complex, which is generally problematic in Freud and often in Jung.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Those speak of God in the more eastern religion way and not the foolish western religion way.
predestinate refers to a supernatural process. And eastern religions - all religions having supernatural facets, are still religions. I think we must have a definition of supernatural before we can go on.


What do you have against Webster?

If I say that the sun will rise tomorrow, is that predestination supernatural. No. I thus refute your claim.
Who determined that the Sun will rise tomorrow. Predestination, especially in a religious context has to do with fate and being controlled in advance by God. Predestination requires one to predestinate, generally God. IN science certain physical properties and laws are all that is required, no predestination. YOu are confusing the word predestination with causal terms from naturalism.

It is not simple cause and effect. There is no predestination in the scientific world.

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty.

One of the main points of Gnostic Christianity is free thinking and the perpetual seeking after God as defined as the best rules and laws to live by. Nothing supernatural.
Then why call it a religion? Why use the word God, with a capital G even? [/quote]

Because it is a religion and it uses the word God. I do not have the power or desire to change all the Gnostic Christian traditions because those are what define Gnostic Christianity. You would have me invent a whole new religion. No thanks.
So you do not believe in God, but to not use the word would make you think you had to invent a whole new religion?

We do say we try to know ourselves. That is part of the definition of Gnosis.

Yes, of course. That was part of why I asked you why you don't just say you are trying to know yourself. Why bring God into it?

God, capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
Note that it is not mere reality, it is the supreme one and both examples are supernatural.


It is not my fault if the term God is misapplied and if you look at the definition you will see that you are adding to the definition. Pick whatever dictionary you prefer and see the truth.


Gnosticism should also be avoided as a term for what you believe since the gnosticisms believed that their was a divinde spark within us related to God who did exist outside us. Note that Jesus above wants people to focus inside themselves but also adds AND IT IS OUTSIDE YOU.


Indeed as he knew how to look.
Right but I was pointing out that the Kingdom was not just on the inside which you said was all he meant.

What do you see? Likely it is not the evolving perfection a Gnostic Christian sees.

I see the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given our past. That best is perfection to me as it has me in it. That perfection evolves all the time.
Then it is perfect that the religions are the way they are also.

What do you see?
Something in serious need of evolution, read, change.

As I said, no. It is rather presumptuous of you to tell me what I believe or what my religion believes. You are trying to make me a literalist to myths and I am telling you that we are not literalists.
I made it clear I was not telling you what to believe. I was, on the other hand, telling you about Gnostic Christianity and also the problems with your language use. You have now told me that to no longer use the word God would mean you had to reinvent the whole religion. I think that is a judgment that is holding you to language you do not need, as you have explained your principles right in front of me without using words that have supernatural connotations.

Science is saying the same of black matter. That is not supernatural anymore than Gnostic Christian beliefs are.

We do not look at the unseen the same way today as we did in ancient days.
Oh, so your religion has changed. Then perhaps I am pointing out ways your religion could change further and be more clear.

Are radio waves visible? Not to the naked eye, but they are at the subatomic level.
Visible in that context meant detectable.

Gnostic Christianity posits a mental condition that allows access to the all. Oneness some call it. Some of the eastern religions posit the same thing. That telepathic connection is as far as we go in believing in what cannot be seen.
Telepathy is a supernatural phenomenon.

Place no Gods above me indicates that there are more Gods than one.

It could mean that. Or it could mean that if you place something as God above me you are worshipping something that is not me and thus is not God. IOW the pagans are not worshipping God.

I am happy to drop this since you seem to think I am telling you what to believe, when in fact I am saying that what you tell me you believe is clearer without things like the use of the word God. Much clearer and no longer self-contradictory. So with some other terms. Do what you want but watch and see how the miscommunication repeats in dialogue with others and you will have to explain again.

I got my refreshed information from online definitions of Gnostic Christianity. Perhaps you have already reinvented the religion.
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Re: Gnostic Christianity’s hidden in plain sight secret. We

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:58 pm

From Gnostic Christian websites:
Did the Gnostics believe Jesus was real?

The Gnostics were often charged as not believing there was a physical world and that Jesus was only a mythical idea. However, the new gospels reveal the greater truth was that they believed the spiritual world to be more important than the temporary physical world.
Note, a dualism. A natural world and one that is spiritual. That is supernatural.

So in their attempt to define or explain evil, they said there was a more perfect God than the God who quickly created the world
The God who created the world, supernatural.

Gnostic Christians did not see God as male or female, but as androgynous, and even beyond, as Spirit.
More supernatural, since the term spirit(ual) means something not natural, something transcendent.

Death does not automatically bring about liberation from bondage in the realms of the Demiurge. Those who have not attained to a liberating Gnosis while they were in embodiment may become trapped in existence once more.

Even the basic to Gnosticism idea of the human soul returning to the Oneness requires a supernatural entity. Because then there is no death for these souls.

In the Gnostic view, there is a true, ultimate and transcendent God, who is beyond all created universes and who never created anything in the sense in which the word “create” is ordinarily understood.


I get it, you want us to take the word God to be something like the word Buddha in Buddhism. But the problem is this is a revision of Gnosticism and Gnostic Christianity which does not have the emptiness concept at its heart like Buddhism does, and because Gnostic C DOES believe in a transcendant being, God, even if they think one cannot know anything about that being except that everything is an emanation from it in some way. Sorry, that is still supernatural by any definition of the term.
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