## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

Consider...

Unless you believe in a God that judges you worthy of immortality and salvation, you've got only limited options in dealing with the oblivion that seems to be an inherent component of death.

Of course if you've got the money, the possibilities increase. For example there's this option: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryonics

And who hasn't imagined what it might be like if someone were to have this done, be reanimated off in the distant future, and make the necessary adjustments to a whole new life in a whole new world. What might that be like? How much of who you once were would be in sync with all of the changes that have unfolded over years. And, in this case, the year is 2084.

One of those films that is bursting at the seams with all manner of provocative conjecture. What if this, what if that. A whole new world in which to speculate about right and wrong, good and bad.

Love and lust.

What would you think, feel, do? After all, do you really imagine it will be the same reaction as Marc's?

Then it all revolves around whether the plot and the characters either enhance the experience for you or encumber it with the sort of miscues that prompt you to imagine how much better it could have been. And the general consensus among the critics is that it could have been better indeed. For example, by scaling back on all those [at times] god-awful flashbacks.

Still, the subject itself is no less fascinating.

As for the science on display here, how realistic is it? You tell me.

IMDb

Oona Chaplin, who plays the character of Naomi, is the granddaughter of legendary actor Charles Chaplin.

The urban legend suggesting Walt Disney was cryopreserved is false; he was cremated and interred at Forest Lawn Memorial Park Cemetery.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realive
trailer: https://youtu.be/Z9-xnelobwo

REALIVE [2016]
Written and directed by Mateo Gil

Marc [voiceover]: Imagine, you were born... totally aware and conscious of everything around you. Conscious you were coming out of someone else's body, joint to it by a bloody cord. That you are completely covered in blood. Conscious of the dry air entering your lungs for the first time; the sharp sounds in your ears; the blinding light in your eyes. Conscious that your bones are unbearably soft and your life is so fragile, it could disappear at any moment. That's what being resurrected is like.

...

Victor: Good morning, Miss Mansfra. Welcome to Prodigy. Where humanity's greatest dream is coming true. Are you aware that our team of top international scientists has developed the world's most advanced regeneration program? We're the only ones capable of regenerating up to 65 percent of the human organism. Prodigy Health Corporation... The only company in the world that can bring you immortality. Because immortality is only a question of time.

...

Victor: That's a scanned map of Lazarus with an accuracy almost to the cell. We use it to study the primary difficulties and to make decisions before the big surgery. Like what proportion of the body can be reanimated and what proportion must be substituted by bionic parts and organs developed in our laboratory.

...

Marc [voiceover]: Why does time pass so slowly when we're children? Why does the future seem like a huge endless eternity? Why do we never feel anything that intensely again? Only the pain...

...

Doctor: Our worst-case prognosis has been confirmed. It's too late to operate. All that we can do right now is try to slow its spread with treatment. At this point, radiotherapy and co-adjuvant chemotherapy is still the most effective option.
Marc: How long have I got?
Doctor: Based on our experience with this type of tumor, you'll be able to live, more or less comfortably for about a year.

Cue the options.

Marc [vocieover]: You can't imagine all the things that need to be done to dismantle your life. And prepare everything for when you are gone...Telling the people you love. Deciding who not to tell. Managing all the concern you will awaken. Telling your mother. Explaining to her that she's going to outlive you. Writing your will. Selling your properties. Emptying the house of your personal belongings. Looking at them for the last time. When you get rid of everything you ever were...what's left?

...

Naomi [to Marc]: I want to be with you through this. I want to spend the rest of your life with you.

...

Marc: What do you guys think about cryonization?
Friend: Like Walt Disney, right?
Marc: Walt Disney didn't have himself cryonized, but yes.
Friend: So what is it?
Friend: Basically, after you die, your body gets put into a capsule with um, liquid nitrogen? Am I right? In hopes that someday, medicine might be able to cure whatever disease you have or just to live longer.

...

Marc: Let me show you something....this article is seven years old now. They extracted the heart matrix out of a dead rat and inject its stem cells into it. A few days later, the heart started beating. And this is just the beginning. I mean, since then, they've even managed to fabricate simple human organs. They've even transplanted some of them successfully. There's a revolution coming. At some point in the not-so-distant future, they'll be able to manufacture organs specifically created to suit each patient. I mean, imagine, I could just simply replace my pharynx with a new one.

...

Charles: Look man, the truth is, I still don't trust it. All the websites I've seen look like they belong to a cult or something. There's no guarantee. Did you know that in 1979, they found the bodies of nine people that have been cryonized? In a cemetery, here in California, thawed, 'cause the company was cutting costs.

...

Naomi [to Marc]: Why do you think that anybody from the future would want to bring you back to life? Or anybody else for that matter? The world is gonna be totally overpopulated. You'll be like a man from the 19th century. I mean, what's the point of that? Unless they wanna use you as guinea pigs for science.

Then this part:

Charles: Everywhere I look, they say the body needs to be cryonized as soon as possible after you're declared legally dead.
Marc: So your cells don't deteriorate.
Charles: But no matter what they did, it would take several hours. Even a day or more to complete the process. The damage will be huge. Not to mention the harm caused by the disease and the treatment before you die.
Martc: Yeah. I'm not doing any more chemo. I already saw my father spend years of his life fighting his disease. Dying little by little. I won't go through that. And as far as the time between death and cryonization...well, I have a plan to make sure that they get to me quickly and start pumping blood right away.
Charles: How... How will you do that? I mean you would have to know the exact circumstances of your death.
Marc: Yeah. Um, I'm gonna make sure they're waiting close by and that I'm in good physical shape when the time comes. I gotta die before the disease gets a hold of me.

Bingo: Suicide. That's the bet. Abandon the present for what may or may not be a future.

Marc [voiceover]: Ladies and gentlemen of the future, it's time to introduce myself. I'll use the same words as Dr. West. My name is Marc Jarvis, And I am the first man ever to be resurrected. To summarize, this is what I am. 20 percent remains of vital organs and tissue recovered from my old body. Mainly the brain and the rest of the central nervous system. 65 percent cloned bones muscle, skin, nerve endings, and other organ remains. 10 percent bionic implants to reinforce the muscular, skeletal system and sensory organs. And 5 percent internal technology designed to regulate and monitor the correct functioning of the organism. On top of that, add a system of external connection. A detachable umbilical cord. A nearly constant means of connecting me to my new mechanical mother. Dr. West and his team have had to face innumerable problems since my reanimation. and their respective solutions have been insufferable. More surgery. Organ removal. Induced coma. External control of vital signs. The administering of drugs to prevent adverse reaction. More drugs to ease the effects of those drugs. And so on, and so on, and so on. All this resulting in a terribly fragile organism. Permanently on the edge of collapse. The Laboratory Man. Frankenstein's monster....But there is another way to look at it. I was going to die. I was going to disappear. Forever. And I'm alive again. I'm alive. I'm alive.

...

Dr. Gethers: Actually, Marc, there is something you've never seen before. Technology's biggest revolution since computers. We call it MW or Mind Writer. If you connect it to your head, it can extract images and sounds. With concentration and practice, you can record your thoughts. Nowadays, MW is used for everything. This is where the information is recorded. Then later, it is used to substantiate anything that has occurred, or to present reports and projects. Or to simply share experiences and connect with people. Or see what they're doing behind your back. It's also used to create art. You were an artist, weren't you?
Marc: Yes.
Doctor Gethers: Apart from anything else, it would help us to get to know you better. And not only us, very soon, many people will want to know first-hand, how you feel. We want you to have something ready when we present you to society to the media and to our investors.
Marc: The media?
Doctor Gethers: A lot of people have paid good money for your resurrection. It's important that the world meets you, Marc.

Of course: the ulterior motives of the reanimaters.

Marc: You got a boyfriend?
Elizabeth: I think our notion of couples is not as defined as it was back in your time.
Marc: What do you mean?
Elizabeth: Well, let's just say that romantic love has come under a lot more scrutiny. You were truly slaves to it back then. We don't suppress much of our love anymore.
Marc: So what do you do in your spare time?
Elizabeth: Um, well, since I started working here, not very much, um I'm a big fan of Mind Writer, almost an addict. I watch series, I have dinner with my parents. I meet with my sex group.
Marc: Sex group?
Elizabeth: I'm lucky, it's very complete. And I've got good friends there. I like you. If you want, we can have sex some time. Well, later on, of course. When your body feels strong enough.

...

Marc [voiceover]: Life. What do we expect from it? Certainly not this fragility. This half speed existence. We definitely don't expect a medical history full of afflictions and minor defects. A propensity for thrombosis. Numbness in the extremities. Involuntary movements. Loss of equilibrium. Scaling of the skin. Irritation of conjunctive tissue. Respiratory insufficiency. Cardiac insufficiency. Incontinence. Impotence. You don't expect so many limitations so soon. You never expect this invincible fatigue which eventually becomes like a fog. Covering everything...And if deterioration, fatigue and despair do arrive, you at least expect to keep your memories. What if What if your memories were erased as well? What will become of me now that my memories are fading?

...

Dr. Serra: I don't mean to trivialize this, Marc, but nowadays, memory loss is not considered a serious problem. Mind Writer allows us to recover memory with a 100 percent accuracy. In fact, millions of people all over the world lead completely normal lives without actually remembering anything.

...

Dr. West: Don't you realize the importance of our achievement? It's a giant step in the history of medicine. You're that giant step, Marc. You'd better prepare yourself. You're gonna be the most famous person on the planet.

...

Marc [voiceover]: I don't know if any of you, maybe some of the oldest, have seen any films about Jesus Christ. I remember being struck once by Lazarus' attitude in the first moments after he was revived by the Messiah. He looked deeply confused. Like he knew he was morally corrupt. As if he hated Jesus for bringing him back to life.

...

Dr. West: A large part of the success of your reanimation was due to the fact that you interrupted your life while still in very good physical shape. That's why you were selected.
[he motions towards a room filled with tanks]
Dr. West: There they are. You spent a while here too, you know.
Marc: What will happen to them?
Dr. West: Well, it's hard to say. Apart from the medical risks involved in each individual case, the time and resources required for reanimation are still quite high. Consider that we'd have to create organs and specific technology for each one of them. Like we did with you. And an enormous team of humans would have to be mobilized.
Marc: Then most of these people will never be reanimated?
Dr. West: Reviving cryonized people are so expensive at the moment that someone would have to have a special interest in them. And be willing to pay for it.

No getting around that. No matter how far into the future.

Marc [voiceover]: What was it? Where did it come from? The need to constantly be seeking some unknown source of fulfillment. The hunger for experiences in life that always made me wanna be everywhere except where I actually was. Life seemed like it was always just around the corner. Or in some brief moment passed that only remained in memory. Never here. Never now. It was a promise always perceived intuitively.

...

Elizabeth: What about being straight with him? It might help him. You know, let's explain to him that his neurons aren't dying and his memories aren't being erased for no reason. That we do know the cause. Let's explain to him that he's boycotting himself.
Dr. Serra: Elizabeth, even if Marc were able to understand, he wouldn't be prepared to take control. And the process might even accelerate if you attempted to throw in the towel and give up altogether. That's not the real issue here. Marc's decision is what matters. He isn't here by chance. He chose to stop living so he could have another life. Well, he certainly feels very guilty about Naomi. No wonder. He sacrificed a remarkable woman for an inadequate dream. Marc is an adult who made his own decisions and has to live with the consequences.

...

Elizabeth [to Marc]: The bosses gave me permission. We can have sex now. But softly. This pill is so you can maintain erection. And this is a desire stimulant. One for each of us. Everybody uses them. I always take them. They increase desire quickly and without side effects.

...

Marc [voiceover]: Before I died, I thought there was nothing after death. Now, I'm sure...Why do we yearn so desperately for life after death? What is it that we want? Perhaps reward for our grief. Or punishment for our sins. No. What we really expect to find is what we already know. What we once had...and lost. If there was something we would turn it into more of the same. The same chaos and the same beauty. The same reward for the same effort. The same tale by the same idiot.

...

Dr. West [to a gathering of potential donors]: Don't worry, we won't be asking you to take out your wallets. You'll gladly hand them to us. Because the future of medicine is in our hands. Because immortality... is only a question of time.

...

Dr. West: Listen, not a single day goes by, not a single moment that I don't remember those people. I recite their names to myself every morning. At first, I was so tortured by each failed reanimation, that it made me wanna quit the project. I'd prepared my resignation over and over again. But at the same time, each failed attempt brought us closer to our goal. Every time, it made more and more sense to try again. Did you think reanimating you would be the result of some miracle? The suffering of those people became a living hell for me. I couldn't sleep anymore. I lost my family when they found out about it. But that was the risk I had to take to get as far as we have. To bring you back to life, Marc.

...

Dr. West: I have done everything I can to treat you and ease your pain, Marc. I can't give you a better life than the one I already have. And you know what? Maybe that's the part you can't take. That the life I gave you isn't the one you were expecting. You wanted paradise for a few thousand dollars, and I only gave you the life you already have, with all its defects and all its limitations.

...

Marc [voiceover]: Can a man be alive only in his mind? Live only based on memories?

...

Marc [voiceover]: Could I live in the past, going over and over it with Mind Writer, filling it in, polishing it, making things up, until it reaches perfection? I don't know. There's only one thing I can see clearly now. Life is nothing more than a state of matter, like a gas or a liquid, a form of molecular organization, and there's nothing transcendent or divine about it. Its only objective is to perpetuate itself through motion, change, adaptation. Life isn't worried about any species, much less any individual. We're nothing more than the chunks of mud it uses as a vehicle. Life is what's scary, not death. That it's always on the verge of extinction. That it exists wherever it shouldn't. And the soul, you may ask. What about the soul? Well, maybe the soul is the bit that gets lost when you freeze the meat and then thawed out again.

...

Marc: All I need is the name of the product and the necessary dosage.
Elizabeth: My job is to assist you in life, not to help you end it.

...

Marc [after drinking the poison]: Remember. Two calls. Yes. First the cyronics lab and one to 911. And cardiac...cardiac massage. Gently.
Naomi: Right.
Marc: Don't wake me up again.

...

Marc [voiceover]: Poor Dr. West. Lazarus wants to return to obscurity. He was right. Just like I wasn't ready to die, I wasn't ready to live like this, either. Like most people from my time, I can't accept anything less than the young, free and sensual world of the advertising Olympus I'd grown accustomed to. The frozen shop window existence. A heaven for skeptics. Therefore, ladies and gentlemen of the future... I hope this will help to clarify my final wish To be nothing again. To disappear. To finally rest in peace. Although, I have a suspicion. It's possible that you might never see this recording. It's possible that Prodigy Health Corporation, after investing so much into Project Lazarus, after putting so much time into me, might not permit this failure....
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Posts: 23444
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

It's a comedy, but one packed with just enough "social references" to make it a clear reflection on how bizarre and fucked up our post-modern hashtag world can be.

At least from the perspective of an "unhinged stalker". And while Igby goes down to find this all out, Ingrid goes west.

Among other things, we discover what it means to be "Instagram-famous" in a world where pop culture, mass consumption and celebrities are now the new Gods. Think Frank Zappa's "plastic people" on steroids.

Social media it's called. Loved by some, loathed by others, it's everywhere. Indeed, it might even be argued [by me for example] that any number of folks right here are hell-bent on turning ILP into just another rendition of it. Philosophy for the chattering masses. A gab fest for folks who [apparently] have nothing better to do.

It really does come down though to how seriously you take it. Some will completely ignore it of course while others will argue that to the extent we do ignore it, it just grows and grows and grows. And that this will certainly come to have ominous political implications. In Trumpworld, for instance.

Which is all basically ignored here. Well, unless you read between the lines.

IMDb

Bill Murray is listed in the Very Special Thanks section of the credits. In the commentary, Aubrey Plaza says that while she and Murray were filming A Glimpse Inside the Mind of Charles Swan III, he gave her his dark blue sweater when she became ill. She wears it in the bank scene and the tropical restaurant scene.

wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrid_Goes_West
trailer: https://youtu.be/xP4vD1tWbPU

INGRID GOES WEST [2017]
Written in part and directed by Matt Spicer

Charlotte [voiceover]: Is this real? Hashtag no filter. The couple that yogas together, stays together. Prayer hands emoji. A perfect day for a perfect wedding. Hashtag perfect so glad I married this weirdo. Fluttering heart emoji. Getting the band back together. Hashtag all the line. Yup! That's how we roll. Princess emoji. And the festivities begin. Twin hearts emoji. Fairy tale wedding. Hashtag about last night. Happy to be sharing this day with all my favorite humans. Hashtag blessed. The couple that yogas together stays together. A perfect day for a perfect wedding. Princess emoji. Yup! That's how we roll. All my favorite humans. Hashtag blessed. Hashtag all the line. Hashtag about last night. Hashtag perfect. Fairy tale wedding. Hashtag blessed.

...

Ingrid [in a mental institution]: "Dear Charlotte, I want you to know how sorry I am about what happened. I think having this time apart has been really good for me. I'm learning how to be present... How to live in the moment..."

...

Ingrid: Do you take cash?
Dan: Are you an escort or something?
Ingrid: No.
Dan [looking into her bag filled with money]: Fuck! Are you a drug dealer?
Ingrid: No.
Dan: Okay, for real what you do? You got a backpack full of money. Suspicious.
Ingrid: Yeah, if you really wanna know, my mom just died and left me a bunch of money.

...

Waiter: What's your biggest emotional wound?
Ingrid: What?
Waiter [pointing to a sing on the wall]: It's our question of the day.
Ingrid: Oh.
Waiter: Mine's actually my relationship with my dad.
Ingrid: I'm good, thanks.

...

Ezra: Maybe, you're confusing her with one of your insta-fans.
Taylor: He's just giving me shit because I happen to engage with people on social media like the rest of the known universe, and my husband has a chronic case of technophobia. He still uses a flip phone.
Ingrid: No!
Taylor: Yeah.
Exra: Stop. Stop. I just prefer to keep certain parts of my life, private. That's it. That's all.

...

Indrid [to Ezra]: Do you take cash?

...

Ingrid: Dan's gonna kill me.
Taylor: Okay, you need to relax, it's just a scratch. And I bet he won't even notice it.

Cut to the "scratch".

Taylor: I'm sorry, I'm like, talking at you. You probably think I'm awful.
Ingrid: No. You're perfect.
Taylor: Yeah, perfectly fucked up.
Ingrid: No. You are, by far the coolest, most interesting person I've ever met. I'm serious.

...

Dan: Is there anything else I need to know about Ingrid?
Ingrid: We might have done all of the cocaine that we found in the...

...

Ingrid: Can we please just start over and pretend it never happened?
Dan: Like a reboot?
Ingrid: Okay! Yes. Like a reboot.

...

Ingrid: Why do you like Batman so much?
Dan: What's not to like about Batman?
Ingrid: I'm sorry, it's just, i don't understand. He's just another superhero like spiderman or superman.
Dan: That's where you are wrong. Batman is the world's greatest detective. Nothing radioactive bit him. He's not from another planet. He's just like you or I. All Batman's powers come from within him. He had enough will and enough focus to make himself greater than what he was.

...

Ingrid: Fuck me, Bruce. Fuck me, Bruce.
Dan: Tell me Gotham needs me.
Ingrid: Gotham needs you. Now.

...

Ingrid: Also, no Batman talk.
Dan What am I supposed to talk about? I don't know these people.
Ingrid: Something cool, like food or clothes or Joan Didion.

...

Nicky: My sister says you're obsessed with Batman.
Dan [awkwardly]: Yea-- yeah.
Nicky: Wow, get the fuck out! Oh, god, why didn't you tell me? I fucking love Batman!!

...

Ingrid: You okay?
Ezra: I'm not an artist. I'm a fucking charlatan.
Ingrid: No, you're not. Your paintings are awesome.
Ezra: You're my only sale.
Ingrid: But Taylor said they were really popular.
Ezra: She would say that, wouldn't she? Yeah. Everything's the best, with her. "Have you been to this new restaurant? It's the best!" "Have you tried these... These new clothes are the best!" "It's the best! It's the best! It's the best!" It's not the fucking best. It's fucking exhausting.
Ingrid: You know what, I actually kind of know what you mean. When we were in Joshua tree, she told me this secret, and she told me not to tell anyone. But I walked in on her telling Harley the same, exact thing earlier.
Ezra: What secret?

...

Ingrid: Taylor has a plan to buy the house next door to you guys, and turn it into some hotel slash store. And she wants to call it "desert door."
Ezra: Desert-- desert door?
Ingrid: Yeah. It's a reference to her favorite book, you know, The Deer Park.
Ezra: The Deer Park is my favorite book. Taylor's never even read it.

...

Nicky: You're fucked. I'm gonna make a deal with you. I'm not gonna give you your phone back. But I'm willing to rent it out to you. For a very small fee.
Infrid: How much?
Nicky: Five thousand a month.

...

Ingrid ]to some kids in a parking lot]: Excuse me.
Kid: Yeah?
Ingrid: I'll give one of you 200 bucks if you punch me in the face. I'm serious.

...

Taylor [on the phone to Ingrid]: Um, this is gonna sound weird, but have you heard from Nicky at all?

...

Ezra [on the phone]: Nicky told us everything about the phone, the kidnapping. If he hadn't tried to blackmail you, you'd be in jail right now. You understand?
Ingrid: Ezra, wait.
Ezra: Don't call here again.

...

Ingrid: Hey, it's me, again. Remember me, Ingrid? Ingrid, patron of the arts. Ingrid, with the truck. Ingrid, who saved your fucking dog's life. The least you can do is pick up your fucking phone, you bitch!!

...

Ezra [on the phone]: Listen to me, you psycho. If you don't stop this shit right fucking now I'm calling the fucking cops. Do you understand? It's three in the fucking morning. Just leave us the fuck alone!!

...

Ingrid: Why are you acting like that? It's just me, Ingrid.
Taylor: I'm sorry. Are you...are you actually insane? 'Cause you do know Nicky almost died because of you, right?
Ingrid: I thought we were friends. We had so much fun together.
Taylor: Oh, my god. Ingrid...we were never friends because everything about you is such a fucking lie. You just are some weird freak that found me on instagram. And that's basically all this has been.
Ingrid: Everything about me is a lie.
Taylor: Okay, well...what?
Ingrid: Everything about you is a fucking lie. It is. Your brother is a drug addict. Your husband is an alcoholic who fucking hates you. And you pretend to be some cool L.A. chick, but you're full of shit. Ezra told me everything. He told me that when you moved here, you were lame and basic, and you had no friends. You were just like me.

...

Taylor: You know what, Ingrid, um...I was, uh, actually never like you...because you are a sad and pathetic, and very sick person, and you need professional help.
Nicky: Game over.

...

Ingrid [making a suicide video]: Hey guys! It's me, Ingrid. I've never done this before, but...I didn't have anyone else to talk to so I figured, why not. I just wanted to tell you guys that basically everything I've posted in the last couple of months is a total lie. I haven't been living, some like, glamorous life in L.A. I'm just...a loser. I'm pathetic. And I know there's something wrong with me, but I don't know how to fix it, and I don't know how to change. And I just... Don't think I can change. So maybe I'm just...maybe this is just who I am. And maybe I'm just tired of trying to make people like me. I'm tired of pretending like, someone I'm not. And I'm tired of being alone. And I'm just...just tired of being me so...I just...feel like... If you don't have anyone to share anything with, then what'd the point of living? Yeah, so I guess I'm just making this video... So you guys can see the real me. At least once.

Then she swallows the pills.

Dan [to Ingrid recovering in the hispital]: Your little suicide video went viral. Your face is all over the Internet. Look at them. Thousands, and thousands and thousands. You're an inspiration, babe. You have a hashtag. "Feel better soon". "Praying for your recovery" "You're too good to do that to yourself" "I gotta tell you, you're fucking beautiful" "you're a hero".

...

Ingrid [voiceover]: Hashtag I am Ingrid.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 23444
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

It again.

And, of course, it comes at night. So, it's only a matter of imagining whether or not it can come out at night when you're around.

Can you imagine yourself in a situation more or less like it?

Clearly, to the extent that you can, it becomes all the more frightening. And given the potential for catastrophic world wide epidemics that pop up in the news from time to time --- ebola, sars, bird flu etc. -- there's really no telling what is down the pike.

The plot is familiar. A small group of people [a family in this case] are in full-fledge survival mode. Then out of the blue they have company. Outsiders. What to do? Not only do they now have the outbreak to deal with, but must come to terms with any and all of the changes that the new arrivals bring with them. Who to trust? What to believe?

And, of course, this: What is the right thing to do? A whole new world, a whole new perspective on virtue. The age-old dilemma in films of this sort: there's what you want to do; there's what you have to do. And then the part in which the reality you construct inside your head may or may not be in sync with whatever is in fact really going on. But, as we all know, our behaviors are invariably predicated on what we think we know is real. So, in the end, it often comes down to being able to demonstrate to others why they should think what you do. In other words, being right may or may not save the day.

So, what's scariest of all can sometimes be not what you see, but what you don't see. Or what you can't see.

Lots of ambiguity here. What's real? What's not? Here is one attempt to explain it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fkRM8D0-A

IMDb

The painting featured in the movie at the beginning is titled "The Triumph of Death".

The cast and crew of the film signed a non-disclosure agreement that forbids them ever revealing what "comes" at night.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Comes_at_Night
trailer: https://youtu.be/6YOYHCBQn9g

IT COMES AT NIGHT [2017]
Written and directed by Trey Edward Shults

Sarah: Can you hear me? Dad, can you hear me?
[Bud nods a weary yes]
Sarah: You don't need to fight it. You can just let it all go. Everything's okay.
[cue Sarah speaking with a mask on]
Sarah: I love you, dad. I do. I'm so sorry. Oh, god...

Is this "it"?

Paul: He has to be involved...in everything from now on...everything. If he's not, then we're doing him a disservice.
Sarah: I don't care, Paul...he's 17. He shouldn't have been there. He shouldn't have seen that.

...

Paul: He's gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be okay.
Sarah: You don't honestly believe that? Do you?

We don't.

Paul: I just wanna talk. And I want honest answers. If you give me honest answers, then this water yours. Understand? Why'd you break into my house?
Will [tied to a tree]: I promise...I promise you, I... I didn't think anyone was in it. There's no lights, and things boarded up. It looked abandoned from the outside.
Paul: What were you looking for?
Will: Water...supplies, anything. My family... I have a family... My wife and our boy in the woods.

And on and on: Trust him? Believe him?

Paul: Do you have any idea what's going on out there?
Will: No. As soon as people in the city started getting sick, we got out, got as far away as possible. If there's a grid left, I don't even know how to be on it.
Paul: So you're out there driving 80 miles, and you didn't see anything?
Will: No. We didn't see anything or anyone.

...

Will: Look, look at my eyes. I'm telling you the truth. I never would've broken in like that if I thought the house was occupied, but I was desperate. I got no hard feelings at you. You did what you had to, you had to protect your family. But if you can spare some water for my family, i can trade for it. Got food.
Paul: How much?
Will: Got plenty to trade for.
Will: Two goats, six chickens, and some canned food as well.
Paul: Are the animals healthy?
Will: Yes, sir. I promise you, if you need food, I have it. My family is all that matters to me. I know you can understand that. You're a good person. You're just trying to protect your family. But don't let mine die cause of it. Help me, and I can help you.

...

Sarah: I think if he does have a family out there that we should consider bringing them back here.
Paul: That's a big jump. Everything he said could be a lie.
Sarah: I know that.
Paul: I know that you want to believe him.
Sarah: Is that wrong?
Paul: We just gotta be smart about it, we can't be emotional...
Sarah: I'm not being emotional. He knows where we live now. We can't just let him go. The more people we have here, the better we can defend it. He found us, other people will too. They could bring the animals here. We wouldn't have to just trade for them. It's the smartest option.

...

Paul [to Sarah]: I'm not bringing anyone back here until I know they're not sick. It took bud less than a day to show signs. I'll wait there three to be certain. You be strong. Don't go outside unless you absolutely have to. And if I don't come back...don't come looking for me.

...

Paul: Good people, huh?
Travis: Yes...I like them here.
Paul: Just keep it in perspective, okay? I don't need to tell you but...you can't trust anyone but family. As good as they seem. Just don't forget that, okay?
Travis: Yeah.

...

Paul: I think Will and I should be the only ones who go outside for a while. We don't know what made Stanley sick, it coulda been an animal, another person, anything. Travis...you didn't go inside the room before we got there, correct?
Travis: Positive.
Will: You just opened the door, you didn't go in?
Travis: I didn't touch the door.
Paul: What?
Sarah: The door was open when you got there?
Travis: Yeah.
Sarah: Then who opened the door?

...

Paul: Travis...come here. I just want you to look me in the eye and tell me that you're...telling the truth. You didn't touch the door?
Travis: No.
Paul: Okay, did you touch him? Andrew? Did you touch him?
Travis: Yeah, I mean...yeah. I held his hand and I...and I brought him to his room.
Paul: And you weren't wearing gloves and mask, right?
Travis: I mean, dad...why would I wear them inside the house?

...

Paul: What's going on?
Travis: It's Andrew. I think he might be sick.
Paul: What? What are you talking about?
Travis: He was crying and I was listening in the attic. They said they need to leave.

...

Travis: What do you want to do?
Sarah: We don't have many options.
Travis: What does that mean?
Sarah: If they want to leave, they're gonna want to take our food and water.
Travis: No, why can't we give them what's fair, and take them back to the house they were at. Sarah: Where do you think they're going if they run out?
Paul: You haven't seen people when they get desperate.
Travis: They wouldn't come back here and put us at risk like that.
Sarah: We don't know that.
Travis: Come on!
Sarah: We don't know these people. We don't know if any of what they said is even true. This is the man that tried to break into our house.
Travis: Cause he was trying to get food and water for his family. Dad would've done the same thing. I don't think we could take the chance. I don't think we can risk it.
Travis: You don't get it. If they're sick...then I am too.

...

Will [pointing a gun at Paul who's wearing a gas mask]: Why is your mask on? Nobody's sick here. Take it off. Take the fucking mask off!!

...

Will: Listen, Paul, I'm sorry, okay? We appreciate everything that you've done, but we want to leave. We're all packed up. I know how you are. But if you go near my wife or my kid, I'll end your fuckin' life. Listen...we just want what's fair. We want enough food and enough water, then we're gonna go, and you're never gonna see us again.

...

Paul: Stop! I said stop!
[Paul shoots and kills Andrew]
Kim: No! My baby! My baby! Nooooo! You killed my baby! You wanna kill me? Kill me!
[Paul shoots and kills Kim]

...

Sarah [looking down at Travis who is clearly infected]: Oh, Travis. Travis, it's okay, sweetie. You're gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay...you can go. You can go.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 23444
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### Re: philosophy in film

I love Westword on HBO for it's philosophy elements.
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

unknowing

Posts: 107
Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:48 pm
Location: In a Tower that is neither intellectual nor phallic, but technological in spirit.

### Re: philosophy in film

Imagine...

You are a doctor at a small clinic. One night the door bell rings. You decide not to see who it is. But the next day you find out the woman who rang the bell is found dead. Was she murdered? You feel guilty. You might have saved her life. You are now determined to find out all that you can about this woman.

In other words, something happens and things changes. Do one thing, one set of consequences, do something else and an entirely different set of consequences.

These things happen all the time to us. In contexts more or less dramatic. The dots get connected. But how much understanding of the relationships do we really have; and how much control do we have over them?

And then the question of identity. Who is this young woman? What happened to her? Why was she at the clinic? And then this: Will she be put in a box and buried in a potter's field...without so much as a name to put on the marker?

We do know that she is an immigrant. And a sex worker.

And here the two worlds collide. The world of the caring and compassionate and civilized doctor and the world of what can only be described as the underbelly of society. And here we bump into any number of scumbags willing to exploit any number of desperate victims. You wonder if, as part of the civilized world yourself, you would go this far.

To make a difference as they say.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unknown_Girl
trailer: https://youtu.be/4TYCCPYdGTw

THE UNKNOWN GIRL [La Fille Inconnue] 2017
Written and directed by Jean-Pierre Dardenne, Luc Dardenne

Jenny [a young doctor]: I want you to learn one thing, just one. Learn to make a good diagnosis. If a patients suffering moves you, you make a bad one.
Julien [an intern]: I couldn't help it.
Jenny: A good doctor has control over his emotions.

...

Jenny [after the intern turns in response to the door bell]: Don't go, we've run over by an hour....Someone who comes this late doesn't care how tired we are.
Julien: Maybe it was urgent.
Jenny: Then they'd have rung twice. Don't let patients tire you, or you won't make a proper diagnosis.

...

Jenny: Was it something serious?
Ben [police detective]: I woman was found dead by the river, near the building site.

...

Detective [after Jenny watches a video of an obviously frightened young black girl ringing the clinic buzzer and pounding on the door]: Do you recognize her?
Jenny: No....She's so young.
Detective: What could have made her come back to ring the bell?
Jenny: Maybe the light from the waiting room.
Detective: We thought maybe she had been there before.

...

Jenny [to Julien]: I felt like you did when the bell rang. I wanted to open the door too...but I don't know what happened. I stopped you from going just because you wanted to. To get the upper hand.

Yes, the complexities embedded in consequences.

Doctor Habron [to Jenny]: You couldn't know, but you should have let her in.

...

Jenny: I can't accept the idea they'll bury her with no name. No one will know it's her in the ground. If I'd opened the door, she'd be alive, like me.
Doctor Habron: True, but then again you're not the one who killed her.

...

Jenny [to Bryan]: Imagine your mother is found dead, far from here, without any ID on her. They'd bury her but couldn't let anyone know. You'd never know. You'd keep waiting for her to come home...Had you seen that girl before?

...

Jenny: Trust me. I won't tell any one.
Bryan: Not my mom or my dad?
Jenny: No one.
Bryan: I saw her. She was sucking off an old man in a camper van.

...

Mr. Lambert: I have nothing to say to you.
Jenny: Did your son tell you not to talk? I just want to know that girl's name, nothing else. I swear I won't tell anyone. I can keep a secret. I'm a doctor. I beg you, Mr. Lambert. I beg you. If you were in the van and she said something that might tell me her name.

...

Jenny: You can still change your mind. Remember your first day? You said you always dreamed of being a doctor.
Julien: When I saw that kid having his fit, shaking all over...I saw myself when my dad hit me. All I got from him was beatings. I wanted to be a doctor to treat him or to treat myself, I don't know. Or to be a better doctor than ours who thought I bruised myself playing.

...

Father of Bryan: Yoy saw Bryan and hasseled him again about that girl. Please stop seeing him and talking to him.
Mother of Byran: His indigestion is back.
Jenny: I met him by chance. I wanted to see his friend.
Father: I told you he had nothing to do with it. We're changing doctors as well.
Mother: I understand that girl is haunting you. As you said, you feel guilty. But you can't make our son sick over it.

...

Jenny: Did you go back to check her?
Bryan's father: No. I thought that she had just fainted...that she'd wake up.
Jenny: The autopsy says she didn't die from impact, but from blood lost while unconscious.
Bryan's father: You mean I let her die? Is that it? Who do you think I am?! Don't look down at me! I can't sleep because of that girl. She's in my head all the time....If you'd opened your door, it would never have happened.
Jenny: She's in my head all the time too.

...

Jenny: I won't tell anyone. But you have to tell the police.
Bryan's father: No. I can't. Everyone will know. I'll lose my job. I'll go to jail. I'll lose everything....Why would I ruin my life?
Jenny: Because she's asking us to.
Bryan's father: Who?
Jenny: The girl.
Bryan's father: She doesn't care. She's dead.

...

Cybercafe cashier [after a long pause]: Before going to the police I wanted to thank you for coming to the cybercafe and showing me the photo....the photo of my sister. Because you came, I felt ashamed and made up my mind. I was afraid my guy would put me back on the streets. He gave me a fake passport so the police wouldn't know he made Felicie work. She wasn't 18 yet.
Jenny: Her name was Felicie?
Cybercafe cashier: Yes. Felicie Koumba.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 23444
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

"Inspired by actual events".

Then it depends on how far back you go. You can go all the way back to the white Europeans "discovering America" and then, over the course of the centuries, reconfiguring any number of "Native American" communities into reservations.

Then any number of conflicting political narratives will start in on grappling with the consequences of that.

On the other hand, there is always the intersection between this and the actual lives individual men and women go about forging in the course of sustaining themselves from day to day. What parts are embedded historically in the inevitable political baggage and what parts are really only your own damn fault?

And this is basically the party line embedded in the liberal and conservative narratives. Folks are either the victims of society and in need of our assistance or they are refusing to take responsibility for their own lives. Their own choices. Their own behaviors. It always seems to be either one or the other. And hardly ever a complex intertwining of both.

Here though the chararacters are portrayed as "fully developed human beings rather than as stereotypes." And that does introduce complexity into the plot. And that introduces ambiguity. And then there's the character embedded in the land itself. The reservation. What might be called the "outback" in other places. And It is far, far removed from what an FBI agent stationed in Las Vegas is used to.

Look for the chaos [and sometimes the utter confusion] entangled in "jurisdiction".

IMDb

During the course of the shoot, writer-director Taylor Sheridan was visited on set by some Shoshone tribal leaders who astonished him with the revelation that, at that very time, there were 12 unsolved murders of young women on a reservation of about 6,000 people. Due to a 1978 landmark government ruling (Oliphant v. Suquamish), the Supreme Court stripped tribes of the right to arrest and prosecute non-Indians who commit crimes on Indian land. If neither victim nor perpetrator are Indian, a county or state officer must make the arrest. If the perpetrator is non-Indian and the victim an enrolled member, only a federally-certified agent has that right. If the opposite is true, a tribal officer can make the arrest, but the case must still go to federal court. This quagmire creates a jurisdictional nightmare by choking up the legal process on reservations to such a degree, many criminals go unpunished indefinitely for serious crimes.

The quote that concludes the film ("While missing person statistics are compiled for every other demographic, none exist for Native American women.") isn't entirely true. There is one more demographic that the FBI has always refused to compile statistics for: missing children.

trivia at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5362988/tri ... =ttqu_sa_1
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_River_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/zN9PDOoLAfg

WIND RIVER [2017]
Written and directed by Taylor Sheridan

Wilma: Don't let Casey out of your sight on the Rez, okay?
Cory: Like I said, I'm gonna leave him with your folks while I scout.
Wilma: You know what I mean.
Cory: Yeah, I do. I won't.

...

Cory: Put your hand upon his nose. Let him smell you and breath you. Let him know you. He will love you forever. Hey...so what do you think of that, son?
Casey: That was pretty cowboy, huh?
Cory: No, son. That was all Arapahoe.

...

Cory [to Dan his father in law]: That's what the tracks say. Momma's teaching her kits how to hunt. She's teaching 'em on livestock. Momma just got her whole family killed.

...

Ben [to Cory of Jane]: See what they sent us?

...

Cory: She ran until she dropped...here. See the pool of blood where her face hit the snow? Now it gets twenty below here at night. So if you fill your lungs up with that cold air. When you're running....it could freeze em up. Your lungs fill up with blood, you start coughing it up So...wherever she came from, she ran all the way here. Her lungs burst here. She curled up in that tree line drowned up in her own blood.
Jane: How far do you think someone can run barefoot out here?
Cory: Oh...I don't know. How to gauge someone's will to live...especially in these conditions? But I knew that girl. She was a fighter. So no matter how far you think she ran...I can guarantee you she ran farther.

...

Randy [the M.E.]: This is very prosecutable as a murder. Clearly she wouldn't have been running through the snow if she hadn't been attacked, but I can't list the cause of death as a homicide.
Jane: And I can't get an FBI team to the reservation unless it's listed as a homicide. I'm not here to solve this. I'm here to obtain a cause of death and then send a team here that can.
Randy: Look, present the rape, present the assault and I'm sure....
Jane: Those aren't under the jurisdiction of the FBI. Those fall to the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

...

Jane: I don't mean to offend you. I'm trying to understand the dynamic here, Mr. Hanson.
Martin [father of the victim]: Why is it that whenever you people try to help us, you always insult us first, huh?

...

Cory [who had lost his own daughter]: I went to a grief seminar in Casper. You know that? The counselor came up to me after the seminar...sat down next to me. He said something that stuck with me. I don't know of it's what he said. Or it's how he said it. He says, I got some good news and I got some bad news. The bad news is you're never gonna be the same. You'll never be whole. Not ever again. You lost your daughter. Nothing's ever going to replace that. The good news is as soon as you accept that and let yourself suffer you'll allow yourself to visit her in your mind. You remember all the love that she gave. All the joy she knew. The point is, Martin you can't steer from the pain. If you do you'll rob yourself. You'll rob yourself of every memory of her. Every last one. From the first step to her last smile. You kill 'em all. Just take the pain, Martin. Do you hear me? You take it. It's the only way to keep her with you.
Martin: I'm just tired, Cory. I'm just so tired of fighting this life.

...

Jane: Shouldn't we wait for back up?
Ben: This isn't the land of waiting for back up. This is the land of you're on your own.

...

Chip: She said "was"...what did she mean by was? What Did She Mean By Was. WHAT DID SHE MEAN BY WAS?!!
Cory: She means I found her raped and killed right over there, son.

...

Jane: The two we have in custody say anything?
Ben: They ain't the talking kind, Jane. These kids...they expect to go to prison. Hell, I think they look forward to it. You know? Three hots, and a cot, and free cable? Anything is better then being here the way they see it.

...

Cory: I'm not going to stand here and tell you that life's fair, 'cause it ain't. To either of us. But you know, what do we go? This land is all we got left.
Chip: What is this "we" shit...? Only thing native about you is your ex-wife and a daughter you couldn't protect.

...

Chip: You think this is who I wanted to be? I get so mad. I want to fight the whole world. You got any idea what's that feel like.
Cory: I do. I decided to fight the feeling instead. Know why? Cause I figured the world would win.

...

Cory [to Chip]: You gonna lecture me about protecting people? While you deal the shit that's killing em? Unlike most people, you had every chance to get the hell out if that's what you wanted. You got the Army. You got College. Whatever is your choice. Look what you choose. Look what you chose. God damn you.

...

Cory [to Ben]: We don't catch wolves looking at where they might be. You look where they've been. They've been right here.

...

Cory: That's a picture of my daughter Emily. She passed three years ago.
Jane: I'm sorry.
Cory: You want to know how, don't you?
Jane: I do, but...
Cory: Makes two of us.

...

Jane: Go get him.
Cory: I won't bring him back. You have to know that.
Jane: I do. Go get him.

...

Cory: Do you know where we are?
Pete: No.
Cory: Gannet Peak. Highest mountain in Wyoming. On the hottest day in August, still there's a foot of snow. Today, too cold to snow.

...

Pete [to Cory]: What the fuck? Where the fuck are my boots?!!

...

Cory: Hey, I need you to be honest with me, right? You get drunk, get lonely. Then what you get? You did it. Just be man and say it. Say, "I raped her."
Pete: I raped her. I raped her...yeah!
Cory: Her boyfriend...when he got in your way did you beat him to death?
[Pete nods]
Cory: Look a nod's not gonna cut it, ok? I need you to say it.
Cory: Okay. I'm gonna cut you lose. You're free to go.

...

Cory: I'm a man of my word. You have told the truth. Let me give you a chance. Let me give you the same chance that she got.
Pete: What chance did she get?
Cory: If you can make it to that highway, you're free man.
Pete: Where is the highway?
Cory: You know how far that drill camp was from where I found Natalie's body? 6 miles, bare foot.

...

Jane: You saved my life.
Cory: No. Jane, you're a tough woman. You saved your own life.
Jane: We both should be honest. I got lucky.
Cory: Ah. well, luck don't live out here. Luck lives in the city. Don't live out here. It lives whether you get hit by a bus or not. Whether your bank is robbed or not. Or someone's on the damn cell phone when he comes up to a crosswalk. That's luck. Out here you survive or you surrender. That's determined by your strength and bare spirit. Wolves don't kill the unlucky deer. They kill the weak ones. You fought for your life Jane. And now you get to walk away with it.

...

Cory: What's with the paint?
Martin: It's my death face.
Cory: Is that right? How would you know what that is?
Martin: I don't. Just made it up.

...

Martin: I heard about what happened. I heard there's one still missing.
Cory: No. No one's missing.
Martin: How did he go out?
Cory: With a whimper.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 23444
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Nothing new here. Tough guy loses his job. His marriage is shaky. He gets tangled up in the dope business. Something goes wrong. He ends up in prison. The prison is bursting at the seams with enemies. The cohorts of the enemies outside the prison kidnap his wife. He's then forced to either do their bidding or she dies. Or so it seems.

Just don't expect much more. It creates a world -- a descent into hell -- with characters that are larger then life. Caricatures some will call them. But it's a world so far removed from the routines that most of us experience from day to day, it can't help but fascinate us. Well, some of us. It's then only a matter of wondering how far removed it is from "the real thing".

Anyway, the bottom line in films of this sort generally revolves around your reaction to the tough guy. The so-called "anti-hero". He either resonates with you or he doesn't. You're either plugging for him or you're not. He either is or is not in possession of a "moral compass". And, given that it received a 92% fresh rating on 75 reviews at Rotten Tomatoes, he certainly resonated with most of the critics.

It's yet another peek into a world that revolves entirely around a set of rules. The rules convey a narrative that swallows whole all the rules that you once abided by in the "free world". Everything is taken seriously. Do or die. And you are ever and always expected to abide by the convict code. As though it is not even be possible to imagine living any other way. Only here the lone wolf reconfigures all the rules.

In any event, your "identity" outside the walls simply dissolves into that which everyone around expects of you. Only [again] not so much here.

Bottom line: Once they get to Redleaf it is a totally improbable plot. And then in Cell Block 99 it is all but unbelievable. But only if that matters to you.

IMDb

Vince Vaughn put on 15lbs of muscle and trained as a boxer for 3 months prior to walking on set. Vaughn himself stated that this made the fight choreography much easier to learn.

Upon first arriving at the prison, two separate prisoners make reference to a prison in Austria. They are most likely referring to Justice Center Leoben which has been recognized as one of the "nicest" prisons in the world due to its modern and luxurious architecture and furniture.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brawl_in_Cell_Block_99
trailer: https://youtu.be/7FnAhrJDTqs

BRAWL IN CELL BLOCK 99 [2017]
Written and directed by S. Craig Zahler

Bradley: South of okay, north of cancer.

...

Lauren: You're gonna be a drug dealer?
Bradley: No. I'm gonna drive packages for a friend.
Lauren: You said you would never work for Gil.
Bradley: So we're both breaking promises today. I want us in a better home than this shithole. With kids and happy. I'm tired of getting the goddamn skim milk and hoping that luck brings out the cream, 'cause it won't, not ever.

There's a story behind that.

Prostitute: Hey, Johnny rebel.
Prostitute: You gonna give me a sample this time?
Prostitute: Come on. Let me earn it direct. I promise I can put a great big smile on each of those nuts.
Bradley: No, thanks. They don't want anyone to see their braces.

...

Gil: How'd the transaction go?
Bradley: Never a problem with Cuz.
Gil: Yeah, I like that nigger. Or is it.. is it "nigga" with an a at the end, when you're saying it nice?
Bradley: Don't think someone like you can say that word any way polite.

...

Bradley: Sounds like he brought amigos.
Gil: Mexicans ain't comfortable being by themselves. You know how they grow up. Five to a bed. 10 beds per adobe.

...

Detective: Every once in a while, I see a man in that chair who could just as easily be on this side of the table, a man principled, who had a run of bad luck and just went the wrong way.

...

Detective: I know that this is your first offense, but you're looking at four years, maybe five. Do you know that drug traffickers actually serve those sentences?
Bradley: I'm aware that the system is harder on guys that distribute drugs than it is on men who commit acts of violence against women and children. Do you think that's fair?
Detective: You ever see a man with meth mouth? Hmm? You ever see the 14-year-old girl who's addicted...
Bradley: I'm not gonna argue with you, Larry. I'm not gonna give you any info. I know what I did, and I know what the sentence is gonna be. It's done.

...

Irving: Next.
Irving: I recall....Well. That's better. Best to remain civilized, Mr. Thomas. Even in a prison. Enjoy your stay.

...

Bradley [pounding on the wall]: Seven fucking years!

...

Placid Man: Sit down, Mr. Thomas.
Placid Man: Remain calm. If you call any attention to us, I will leave. And you will regret my departure for the rest of your life. Nod that you understand.
Placid Man: My employer sends his regards.
Bradley: You work for Eleazar. Why are you here?
Placid Man: Your betrayal cost my employer $3.2 million. I'm here to settle that matter. [he shows him a cell phone photo of his wife bound and gagged] Placid Man: There is an abortionist from Korea. He works for my employer. He claims that he can clip the limbs of a fetus yet leave the child in such a condition that it will live to be born. This little operation will only happen if you don't pay your debt to my employer. Bradley: How? Placid Man: There is a prisoner who my employer wants dead. He is serving a life sentence at the Redleaf Detention Center. Bradley: I'm in the Fridge for seven years. How in the hell am I supposed to choke out some guy over in Redleaf? Placid Man: Redleaf is maximum security. Show the staff here that you have to be transferred. We know where this is going. Prison guard: Why the hell did you do this? Bradley: Didn't like my prison shoes. ... Warden: Mr. Thomas. Look at me. The Redleaf Detention Center is classified as a maximum-security facility. But there's another term I prefer...one that I think will give you a clearer picture. Minimum freedom. If you make trouble, your minimum freedom will get smaller. So small that it becomes microscopic. Do you understand? Bradley: I do. Warden: Put a "sir" on that. Btadley: I do, sir. ... Warden [Bradley]: The guards here aren't like those faggots over there at the Fridge. You can test us if you want to. Prisoners are expensive, and we're only too happy to help the state balance its budget by deploying some cheap lead. ... Warden: Bad news, Mr. Thomas. Our examination room is under renovation. So you're gonna have to strip out here. Wilson. Give Mr. Thomas a full cavity inspection. ... Bradley: Who do they keep in Cell Block 99? Derrick: Child molesters, rapists, guys with death sentences...psychotics. ... Warden [to Bradley]: You just lost your minimum freedom. You're going to 99. ... Warden: I suspect that Amnesty International would frown upon the contents of this room. Cell block 99 is the prison within the prison. You will stay down here until you're sorted out. Or carried out. Stand him up. For the next month, you'll wear this. Turn it on. Each time you misbehave, you earn five points. Each point gets you one of these. [Bradley is zapped with electricity] Warden: You currently have 25 points. These shall be dispensed to you over the coming week. When you are eating, when you are sleeping, when you are pissing, and when you are shitting. ... Lauren: Who's there? Placid Man: My employer has asked me to take a few more pictures. Lauren: Is that him? Placid Man: That's the abortionist. He is here to perform a preliminary examination. Lauren: No. You can't. You can't. This a baby girl you're talking about. Placid Man: It is lamentable that she didn't have smarter parents. ... Eleazar: Your heroics cost me$3.2 million, as well as my freedom for an undetermined period of time, and because of you, my sister is now a widow. Her husband was Pedro whom you shot in the back.
Bradley: Let my wife go. You and I can settle this however.

...

Eleazar [to his thugs]: Kill Mr. Thomas and I'll double your wages.

...

Eleazar [on the cell phone]: If you do not hear from me in 10 minutes, commence the abortionist. If you have not heard from me within the hour, dismantle the mother and flush her down the toilet.

...

Eleazar: 7-7-7.

...

Placid Man: What a mess...

...

Warden: What's going on in there?
Bradley: I'm executing Eleazar....They say the head stays alive for a little while after it's been cut off. I hope so.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Posts: 23444
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### Re: philosophy in film

Two reactions:

1] would that it could be like this today
2] may it never be like that again

And look at Detroit today. Now that big chunks of the automobile industry [and heavy industry in general] has shifted manufacturing abroad, all the jobs that once afforded working class folks [with high school diplomas] access to unions and the middle class, are gone. And we know what has taken its place.

And yet in other respects things were far worse back then. At least for many in the black communities.

And in particular with respect to the police department. In other words, as bad as some folks think things are now, things were once considerably worse. Or so it certainly seems here.

Then between the protests on the street, the haggling behind the scenes [between the powers that be], the rioting and the looting, the line between the personal and the political gets increasingly blurred. And it is here that films of this sort tend to jump the shark. They can't decide whether to focus in on the dramatic -- historical -- events unfolding all around them, or zoom in instead on the "personalities".

And then, finally, there's the part that revolves around that which the film depicts and that which actually occurred 50 years ago. It said to be a "dramatization" of the actual historical events. As one reviewer puts it: "I would give this movie a 10 as a propaganda piece, zero as a documentary..."

In other words, there is no way in hell that folks are not going to take out of this film what they first put into it: their own political prejudices.

IMDb

Survivor Julie Hysell was on set throughout most of the shoot. Vietnam vet Robert Greene was still alive, but the producers couldn't reach him.

Director Kathryn Bigelow was inspired to unearth this event by the Ferguson (MO) riots (Aug. 2014) where a black man was fatally shot by a white police officer.

The raid on the "Blind Pig" was due to pressure and repeated demands from black Baptist ministers, who hated blind pigs for drawing money to liquor and prostitution that should have gone into collection plates. The ministers urged the white mayor, Jerome Cavanaugh, to shut down the illegal clubs.

Once a proud Polish community, Hamtramck is now a Muslim one. The Poles have been replaced with Yemenis and Bangladeshis. Hamtramck now has the first Muslim-majority city council in the U.S.

trivia at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5390504/tri ... =ttqu_sa_1
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/LyAga-jz38Q

DETROIT [2017]
Directed by Kathryn Bigelow

Title card: The Great Migration set in motion before World War I would spur some 6 million African Americans to leave the cotton fields of the South for the lure of factory jobs and civil right in the North. After World War II, white Americans began their own migration to the suburbs, drawing money and jobs aways from increasingly segregated urban neighborhoods. By the 60's, racial tensions had reached a boiling point. Rebellions erupted in Harlem, Philadelphia, Watts, and Newark. In Detroit, Aftrican Americans were restricted to a few overcrowded neighborhoods, patrolled by a mostly white police force known for its aggression. The promise of equal opportunity for all turned out to be an illusion. Change was inevitable. It was only a matter of how, and when.

...

Frank [black police detective]: They're taking them out the front.
White cop: Shit...

...

White Cop: We had to use the front door.
Frank: Shit!
White Cop: Make it a public display.
Frank: I almost feel bad for them. We gotta get out of here. Quickly.

...

John Conyers: I know you're angry. I'm angry, too. This city has problems, especially with the policemen. We have problems. However change doesn't happen overnight. But change is coming. Let's work together!
Protester: Nah! Bring Stokely Carmichael down here! We don't wanna hear from your ass!
Conyers: Look here. This is what I need you to do! I need you to not mess up your own neighborhood. This is your home!
Protester: Yeah, burn it down!
Conyers: Burning it down is not the answer!

...

Newscaster: Here in Detroit, a city of war where snipers hide on rooftops, the violence continues. US Army paratroopers, National Guardsmen, state and local police are continuing the fight against a handful of snipers. On the city's west side, a 150-block area is off-limits to everybody. This is no man's land, an area of destruction and devastation.

...

Lyndon Johnson: There is no American right to loot stores or to burn buildings or to fire rifles from the rooftops. That is crime. And crime must be dealt with forcefully and swiftly, and certainly under law.

...

Protest leader [mocking LBJ]: LBJ tell you that, "Violence never accomplishes anything...my fellow Americans." Don't you see, the real problem with violence is that we have never been violent. We have been too nonviolent!

...

Newscaster: 1,100 National Guardsmen have been rushed into as many areas as they can cover, protecting police. Looters carry off thousands of dollars' worth of goods with a gay sort of leisure. Many negro shop owners put up sign reading "Soul Brother" to avoid damage. But the fire bombers and looters are indiscriminate.

...

Detective: That guy you shot at didn't make it home. Ambulance found him bleeding out under a car.
Krauss: Are we sure it's the same guy?
Detective: He's the only Virginia Park shooting today. You carry a shotgun, he had shotgun wounds. You wanna play ballistics?
Krauss: Jesus Christ, I'm sorry.
Detective: That's it?
Krauss: What else?
Detective: You shot him in the back.
Krauss: Right. He was... He was running away from me. Where else do you want me to shoot?
Detective: My point was him being no threat to you.
Krauss: In hindsight, but I'm thinking...why is he running away from me...if all he did was steal some groceries? What if he killed somebody in that grocery store? He's avoiding the police. What do you assume from that?
Detective: You don't assume. If he had a weapon in his hand, that's another story. We don't shoot for robberies.
Krauss: Detective, you know it's a war zone out there, right?
Detective: Yeah. 10th had to shut down.
Krauss: They're destroying the city. We're facilitating that with the message we send...which is that it's okay, go ahead, burn down your houses, rob a store. It's total chaos. And where does that lead us long term, Detective?
Detective: All right, kid. Thank you.
Patrolman: Anytime.
Detective: I'm recommending murder charges. You go back to work, wait to hear from the DA.
Patrolman: Yes, sir.
Detective: And kid...calm down out there.

...

White national guardsman: It's good to have some quiet. We were at Black Bottom earlier today. We actually took sniper fire. Had one, right by here.
Melvin [black security guard]: Ain't no snipers here, man. Just you and me and the people partying in that motel.
National guardsman: How long do you think this is gonna last?
National guardsman: Yeah, how long till these negros people quit? What do you think?
Melvin: How the hell am I supposed to know?

...

Krauss: What's the deal with the girls?
Cop: I found them with the big nigger down the end.
Krauss: Same room? You find anything?
Cop: Nothing.

...

Krauss: I'm just gonna assume you're all criminals. Because if we're honest, you probably are. So let's hear it. Let's fucking hear it! Pray! Do it loud!

...

Lee: They're gonna kill us, man.
Melvin: Why? You gonna be crazy?
Lee: They the ones that's acting crazy. They lost their mind when they seen a couple white girls in a room with a black man.
Melvin: They're lookin' for a sniper, okay?
Lee: But Carl wasn't no sniper, man.
Melvin: So if a guy goes for your gun, you gonna let him have it because he's black? Come on!
Lee: A cop has a shotgun like yours, right? You hold that tight with two hands. How you even gonna try to take that?

...

Sergeant [from Michagan State Police]: What's going on?
Cop: I gotta tell you, Detroit PD is going nuts in there.
Sergeant: What do you mean?
Cop: Looks like they're terrorizing suspects, beating and so forth, trying to get a confession.
Sergeant: Well, that's not correct, they got their civil rights.
Cop: That's what I'm saying. Don't look right to me.
Sergeant: All right. Let's let them have the case. I don't wanna get involved in any civil rights mix-up, you know? Let's go.

...

White cop [to Karen and Julie]: Why you gotta fuck them, huh? What's wrong with us?

...

Krauss: We've got all the time in the world. We are gonna get to the bottom of this. So think very carefully about how you answer our questions, or you're gonna end up like your friends in the next room. How long you been pimpin' out these young girls, huh? Destroying their bodies and minds.
Greene: I just met 'em. I ain't pimpin'. I just got back from the war.
Krauss: You're a veteran?
Greene: Yes, sir.
Krauss: Fuckin' stupid do you think I am? You wear army green, you try to be a fucking serviceman. We don't need pimps in the army. Probably drove a fucking supply truck.
Greene: I was airborne.

...

Krauss: Aren't you ashamed of yourselves?
Karen: You're the one checking out my tits.
Krauss: You're having sex with niggers.
Karen: It's 1967, asshole. Honestly.
Krauss: It doesn't bother you? The Afro Sheen in their hair? The way it smells?
Karen: You're on some trip.
Cop: You think you can come into my city and pimp out a bunch of young girls?
Greene: I said it wasn't like that.
Krauss: I don't care if you were in the army. I'll drown all you pimps in the river until the city's clean.

...

Demens: So that's done.
Krauss: Good. Great job.
Demens: I didn't think I could do it, but I did it. Boy, I feel funny.
Krauss: Yeah. It's the right thing. He'll talk now.
Demens: What do you mean?

...

Krauss: You shot him, Demens!
Demens: Yeah, I got him.
Krauss: Jesus Christ, Marty. We weren't actually shooting the other guys. We're playing with them.
Demens: What do you mean? Playing. Playing what?
Krauss: A game. A game to get them to talk, scare the shit out of 'em. Interrogation tactics. Fuck.

...

Krauss [to Demens]: Listen to me. Oh, fuck. He grabbed your gun, all right, and you warned him, okay? And you were forced to shoot him, okay? Line of duty. Get your fucking story straight. Oh, fuck. Hey, get your head straight. I'm serious.

...

Detective: You need to think real hard. You need to answer me.
Melvin: All due respect, I am telling the truth. I'm not lying. I told you what I saw. I saw these kids...the police shot them.
Melvin: Yes, sir.
Detective: Melvin, do you wanna go home?
Melvin: Yeah.
Detective: Can we let him think about it?
Detective: Yeah. You think about it, okay, Melvin?

...

Krause: Remember what I told you, and this whole thing's gonna blow over. All right? You did nothing wrong.
Demems: I think I gotta say somethin'.
Krauss: Hey. You made...Demens. Something that took one minute should not define your entire life. You understand? You made a mistake. You say what you need to say, and you move on. That's how you get out of this thing. All right?
Demens: All right.

...

Newscaster: During the week of rioting in Detroit, three negros were shot to death in a motel room. Police and the Guardsmen had raided the motel, searching for snipers. Later, witnesses to the shootings said the three negros had been lined up and shot in cold blood by the officers. Today, two police officers were arrested and charged with the murders of two of the negros shot in the motel. The officers, one with two years' service, the other with four and with no previous misconduct charges, were ordered held without bail. They pleaded not guilty. Their attorney said the arrests were a shame and a pity.

...

Newscaster: In the Algiers Motel case, both the prosecution and the defense in their opening statements reminded the all-white jury of the racial violence that seared Detroit two summers ago.

...

Defense lawyer: Have you ever had trouble with the law?
Lee: I'm not on trial here.
Defense lawyer: No need to introduce a new crime, sir. Just the ones already known. Or maybe you can start by telling us, how did the night begin? Party? A few drinks?
Lee: Man, why? Why y'all talking about me at all? Man, y'all see a black man in court and assume I'm the one on trial. Man, they killed my friends, man! They beat us! Lined us up and abused us and y'all doing the same thing! There's no justice here, man. Go fuck yourself.

...

Judge: These policemen were owed an obligation. Advising them that they had a right to remain silent, they had a right to counsel, and that anything they said could be used against them in a court of law. I don't think these defendants, because they're police officers, have any right to expect anything more from us, but they have a right under the Constitution not to settle for anything less. I therefore rule the statements inadmissible.

...

Krauss: Wasn't that just a load of bullshit.
Melvin: You know as well I do, those kids shouldn't have been killed like that.
Krauss: Yeah. It's a shame. Should've complied with a lawful order, and relinquish their weapons. But you're a solid guy though. Really.

...

Judge: Has the jury reached a verdict in this matter, with regard to the charges of murder in the first degree and assault?
Head juror: We have, Your Honor. On the assault, not guilty. As to the murder charges, not guilty.

...

Title card: The facts around the murders at the Algiers Motel on July 25th, 1967 were never conclusively established in a criminal proceeding. As a result, portions of this film were constructed and dramatized based on recollections of the participants and available documents.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Posts: 23444
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### Re: philosophy in film

Come on, does anyone really believe that life on earth is all there is? That life on Earth is literally all the life there has ever been in a universe said to contain millions upon millions of planets.

Now, as a boy I just assumed that this would finally be established in my lifetime. Now I'm considerably less sure.

Instead, like everyone else, I am able only to speculate about it by, among other things, watching films like this.

Still, once we agree there almost certainly are other forms of life "out there", we can get down to the task at hand: imagining a context.

It's alive. But then what? What are the actual consequences of having discovered this extraterrestrial life? In other words, will it be more like Close Encounters of the Third Kind, or War of the Worlds?

Although this one is actually more like Alien.

In other words, there's the part where we find extraterrestrial life and then try to comprehend it in terms of the only thing we know: our own self-serving species narrative. But then [of course] we find out that [one way or another] we've got to accommodate ourselves to its narrative. Having no way in which to know for sure [beyond survival] what that is.

Either that or wipe it out.

This one isn't nearly as good as Alien however. And that revolves basically around the fact [my opinion] that the crew here is rather bland. We really don't "get into them". Or really care all that much about them. There are, after all, ensembles in films like this that are better than others. Think, say, the crew from The Abyss.

trivia at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5442430/tri ... =ttqu_sa_1
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_(2017_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/jWLE9P1OiC8

LIFE [2017]
Directed by Daniel Espinosa

Miranda [ship quarantine officer in voiceover]: Today the Pilgrim capsule with its valuable Mars soil samples completes its 8 month return from Mars....We've been waiting a long time for this sample, and Rory is placing himself at great risk to secure it.

...

Hugh: Your worry lines are showing.
Miranda: Yeah, well, I get paid by the line.

...

Hudh: Pilgrim wasn't just seeing things in Mars' soil. We're looking at a large single cell. Inert. Unmistakenly biological. And, like organisms on Earth it has what appears to be nuleus, cytoplasm.

...

Hugh: I'm gonna try a different atmosphere. Closer to Proterozoic Earth than today's Mars. Less oxygen, more carbon dioxide. And then, when Sho's ready, a growth medium.

...

Hugh [of the organism]: Come on, dance...

...

Hugh: We're looking at the first incontrovertible proof of life beyond Earth.

...

David [to Miranda]: I like the hum up here....

...

Hugh: Hold on to your helmets. The glucose intake is very rapid. The specimen's cells have begun to move together en masses as a unit. They're also sharing electirical activity in what resembles a a growing neural network. Notice I didn't say "brain".

...

Hugh: Here's what's fascinating. Unlike most multicelluar organisms, every cell of Calvin's can perform every somatic function on its own. Every single cell is simultaneously a muscle cell and a nerve cell and a photoreceptive cell.
Miranda: So the creature as a whole is, in a very real sense, all muscle, all brain, all eye.

...

Miranda: Notice how it is approaching and not moving away.
Hugh: Its curiosity outweighs its fear.

...

Hugh: You can't compare Calvin to anthrax.
Rory: I don't want to be around that thing. I'm not qualified to be around that thing.
Hugh: I understand. I'm just saying you can't compare Calvin to anthrax.
Rory: Stop...stop calling it fucking "Calvin". We don't know what that fucking thing is. You're in there and you're playing around with it like it's your buddy.

...

Miranda: My job is lines of defense. Imagine the worst thing that could happen, and then the worst after that, and then I...I've planned for all of them.
Hugh: I understand that. But risks are taken for reasons. Because of Calvin, we're gonna learn so much about life. It's origins, its nature, maybe even its meaning.

...

Miranda: Rory...I can't let you out.

...

Rory: Fuck this. Permission to fucking kill the thing. Commander?
Ekaterina: Kill it.

...

Miranda: It's so much bigger....how smart is this thing?

...

Miranda: Earth is the responsibility. Nothing goes down to the planet. It was stipulated. In writing.
David: What are you talking about? What was stipulated in writing?

...

David: What other way could it get in?

...

David: Could it survive that?
Hugh: We don't know. It's already gone beyond what any living organism should be able to survive.
Miranda: If it's between letting it in here or letting it get down there, we let it in here.

...

Hugh: These creatures could have dominated Mars for hundreds of millions of years. But now we know they hibernate for loss of atmosphere. If we deprive it of air, retreat to Tranquility and seal ourselves off...
Miranda: And vent the rest of the station...
Hugh: Exactly. No life support. No life.

...

Hugh: It's just surviving. Life's very existence requires destruction. Calvin doesn't hate us. But he has to kill us in order to survive.

...

Miranda: I know what I feel is not rational, not scientific. I feel hate. I feel pure fucking hate for that thing.

...

Miranda: David...David, they're not coming to rescue us.
David: What?
Miranda: Firewall One was the box. And Firewall Two was the lab. And Firewall Three is the station...and if Firewall One or Two fail, they have two choices. They can contain, or they expel. They're pushing us out into deep space. They cannot risk Calvin reaching Earth. That was my protocal. I insisted from the beginning and the committee agreed.

...

David [to Miranda]: I belong up here. i don't want to go back down to eight billion of those motherfuckers.

...

Miranda [into a recording device]: Mars life forms should be considered hostile. Do not underestimate their intelligence and their adaptive capabilities. Now, we did not learn how to restrain or eliminate it, but if this creature ever reaches Earth, use every available means to destroy it...

Cue the sequel?
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Posts: 23444
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### Re: philosophy in film

Way back in my own objectivist years, films like this would have been particularly problematic. I had convinced myself that Marxism was the foundation for the New Man. But, in turn, way back then, the sexual revolution was burgeoning. I had come into contact with the arguments of, among others, Wilhelm Reich. And the arguments of those who embraced, among other things, homosexuality.

So I was pulled and tugged. Folks like Fidel Castro were deemed by my own comrades to be champions of the New Man. But then some of his policies in Cuba began to rub me the wrong way. Besides, could folks like Karl and Vladimir and Mao and Fidel really know what's best in regard to rational or irational sex?

And then the part about intentions. And the roads to Hell that have been paved with the best of them. You can in fact reject things like homosexuality because you honestly and sincerely do believe it is the wrong thing to do. And not just because that is gleaned from the Bible.

In any event, we live in a world where the rigidity rooted in ideological thinking will almost inevitably come into collision with the actual complexity of human interactions. Especially in our post-modern industrial world where, through any number of communications media, we will have access to competing narratives. If nothing else that is what Santa learns from Andres here.

And then [inevitably] this part: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... 98618.html

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_%26_Andres
trailer: https://youtu.be/f7RYa_PZy3U

Santa and Andres [2016]
Written and directed by Carlos Lechuga

Title card: At the beginning of the Cuban revolutionary process, the government was prepared to remedy any shadow of social scourge staining the achievements of rising socialism. Given these judgments, many religious people, artists and homosexuals were considered the forefathers of communist morality and locked up in camps to be reformed, sometimes imprisoned or taken away from their fundamental freedoms and sentenced to ostracism.

...

Santa: I am Santa Rodriguez, from the people's council.
Santa: Don't you know?
Andres: No, not really.
Santa: The Forum For Peace.
Andres: Another one?
Santa: Any problem? Important guests are coming, foreign press, the television.
Andres: So?
Santa: Nothing. I'll be here.
Andres: And me?
Santa: You too. Over the next three days you won't go out. I'll be here accompanying you until the event ends.

On the other hand, in Nazi Germany he would already have been sent to the gas chamber.

Andres [offering Santa a drink]: It's bitter. I ran out of sugar.
Andres: I'm not going to poison you.
Santa: I don't want.
Andres: It's not for you to fall asleep.
Santa: I will not sleep.

...

Santa: I like reading. But I have not read anything of yours.
Andres: That's because I stopped writing long ago.
Santa: And what did you write? And why did you stop writing?
Andres: I thought that if you were here it was because you knew.
Santa: What?
Andres: That I wrote a book that the government didn't like.
Santa: Hmm. A dissident book?
[Andres doesn't answer. He just stares at her]

...

Santa: Were you imprisoned?
Andres: Of course.
Santa: How long?
Andres: Eight years.
Santa: Eight?
Andres: Eight years of my life among thieves, rapists, murderers...the scum of this country.

...

Jesus [to Santa]: He was warned many times. And was told with good manners to stop telling lies. We tried to point him in the right direction, but nothing. He didn't want to be helped. It is necessary to look after this man, otherwise he will go there to start telling lies again.

...

Santa: I know the mute isn't your nephew....I'll have to report what I think happened.
Andres: Isn't it possible that after your visit I got all worked up and tried to kill myself?
Santa: People like you don't kill themselves.
Andres: People like me?

...

Andres: This has nothing to do with politics. This is my personal life, so let's leave it there.
Santa: If you don't want me to report it, you will have to tell me more.
Andres: Yesterday when the mute saw you, he got very angry.
Santa: Why?
Andres: Because he thought I had told you that he was a queer.

...

Andres [to Santa shaking her hand]: You saved my life. Thanks.

...

Santa [looking at a photograph]: Do you miss them?
Andres: I think about them a lot.
Andres: Where did you get that from?
Santa: He was your boyfriend, right?
Andres: No.
Santa: You don't speak to each other anymore?
Andres: I don't speak with worms.

...

Andres [to Santa]: There are a lot of talented people in this photograph. Maybe the most talented of my generation.

...

Santa: Without all the mystery tell me what really happened? Why did you become a counterrevolutionary?
Santa: And this book you wrote, why didn't you try to publish it here?
Andres: Of course I tried. What do you think? If this is going to be an interogation I'd prefer to do it at the police station.

...

Santa: You should be removed from the black list.
Andres: Well, I should never have been included. That's why all my friends who didn't kill themselves left this country. But as I stayed I am still in the sight of all those mediocre people of the watch. After passing thousands of inspections, they bite my books down to pulp. You didn't let me work. That's what happened to me. You hate artists. The real ones. You can't stand them.
Santa: That's not what I was told.
Andres: Well you should open your eyes a bit more....Because of people like you...
Santa: Like me?
Andres: Yes, like you. My life was fucked!

Still, suppose his writings had been in support of, say, fascism?

Santa: Have you ever been with a woman?
Andres: No.
Santa: Maybe you would like it.
Andres: Girl...I have an aversion to the female sexual organ. To me a pussy is like a scab on my armpit.

...

Jesus: Yesterday the district Chief of Police caught Andres' mute stealing from an old faggot from Havana. He thought that if he cooperated his sentence would be reduced and started to write and tell all he knew.
Santa: What?
Andres: It seems the artist has written a new book. A biographic book of lies about the Revolution.
Santa: No, that is not true. It is a lie told by the mute to avoid trouble.

...

Jesus: Where's the book?
Andres: What book?
Jesus: Don't play the fool. Where's the book?
[Andres says nothing]
Jesus: Someone told you we were coming. You got ready for us.
Andres: Comrade Jesus I have not written to years...not a single word.

...

Jesus: Comrades, this one will not cooperate. Let's make it clear for him that no one messes with the Revolution.

Cue the Cuban national anthem. Then cue the totalitarian eggs.

Andres [on phone]: May I speak to Tirso please. From Andres. Tirso? This is Andres. Listen...I'm ready.

...

Santa: Andres...don't go.
Andres: Give me my book.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 23444
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Sure, women can be superheroes. And women can be spies. And though being drop dead gorgeous is not the only qualification, it certainly appears to be a vital one. On the other hand, aren't most of their male countparts drop dead gorgeous too? Ruggedly handsome as it were.

But this is Hollywood. And the box office there has always revolved around the bold, beautiful ones. On the other hand, this all unfolds during the Cold War. So surely it is more the anomaly.

Or is all of that entirely irrelevant in this particular rendition? After all, it's a spy thriller. And here what counts far more is being or not being drawn into a rousing adventure. Then it's just a matter of probing the extent to which that adventure takes us behind the scenes in exposing the way the spy vs spy world really works. It does. In spades. Instead of terrorists however it's what's left of the Commies. As the Berlin Wall is about to come to crashing down. Here of course everyone seems to have their own rendition of the Deep State. Even in what really amounts to a cartoon character world.

But the tricky part is in being on the cusp of history. The new is not quite here and the old is still very much around. I'm sure however that the same sort of cynical duplicities unfold in the "war on terror" as well.

It's the sort of fantasy that some men imagine feminists crave: a woman tough enough to [almost] be a man. Jane Bond as it were.

Or maybe it is all just a remake of Mission Impossible.

With lesbians.

trivia at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2406566/tri ... =ttqu_sa_1
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_Blonde
trailer: https://youtu.be/yIUube1pSC0

ATOMIC BLONDE [2017]
Directed by David Leitch

News clip of Ronald Reagan: East and West do not mistrust each other because we're armed. We're armed because we mistrust each other. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!

...

Title Card: In November 1989, after 28 years, the Berlin Wall came down and the Cold War ended. This is not that story.

...

Jimmy: How did you find me?
Bakhtin: Maybe you're not as good at this spy shit as you think.
Jimmy: It was Satchel, wasn't it? Satchel gave me up. I always thought, if I got tagged, it would be by the best. But you're not the best, are you, Bakhtin? You're the biggest fucking cunt in the KGB.
Bakhtin (chuckling): Sticks and stones, Jimmy.

Welcome to spy vs. spy vs. spy vs. spy vs. spy in the cold war.

David: Now, where's that fucking list?
Spyglass: I gave the microfilm to Gascoigne last night.
David: James didn't show up.
Spyglass: I did my part. I gave him the list. You have to get me and my family across. It's not safe for us anymore here. The Russians are onto me.
David: No list, no deal.
Spyglass: I risked everything.
David: No list, no deal. You listen to me, Spyglass. Without that list, why shouldn't I take you outside and shoot you in the fucking head?
Spyglass: You are going to kill a Stasi officer?
David: One that's about to defect to the West? Yeah.

...

Eric: Percival has gone somewhat native.
C: Gone fucking feral.
Eric: Berlin is the Wild West. If that bloody wall comes crashing down, we don't want to be under it. If the Russians get that list, we're all buggered sideways.
Eric [to Lorraine]: You're Elizabeth Lloyd. A Cambridge-educated lawyer sent by James Gascoigne's family to retrieve the body and effects of their recently deceased son. Your mission is to connect with Percival and do whatever it takes to get that list home.
C: And remember, Lorraine, this is highly sensitive. Trust no one.

...

Lorraine [to the camera]: You know those movies where the picture just starts to slow down and melt? Then catch fire? Well, that's Berlin.

...

David: I'd say that you're an attractive woman and you should do the math.

...

Lorraine [to Eric and Emmett and the crowd behind the mirror]: So no, I wasn't just looking for the list in Gascoigne's apartment.

...

Lorraine: Percival was the only one who knew I was going to Gascoigne's apartment. And if I knew he was going to call the police, I would have worn a different outfit.
Eric: Different outfit?

...

David: Look, we're all exposed by that list. And saving the world is cool and all that, but my main objective is staying alive. I've been head of Berlin Station for ten years. You've got to know that I'm the only man in this town that can help you get that list.
Lorraine: Yes, I've read your file. I've also read your dog file. So let's cut the crap, shall we? This whole hungover, show-up-late, don't-know-which-way-is-up act, I'm not buying it. I trust you about as far as I can throw you.
David: "It's a double pleasure to deceive the deceiver."
Lorraine: Niccolo Machiavelli. It was on your shelf.
David: Oh, my God, I think I fucking love you.

...

Delphine: Will you come? Maybe?
Lorraine: You're relentless.
Delphine: Oui. David Hasselhoff's in town.
Lorriane: Lucky us.
Delphine: Berlin is truly doomed.

...

Eric: So you made contact with the French operative?
Lorraine: Obviously.

...

Emmett [to Lorraine looking over the Berlin Wall into East Berlin]: That's quite a view. 70 miles of barbed wire, 310 guard towers, 65 anti-vehicle trenches, 40,000 Soviet-trained, heavily armed frontier troops. All that, and 5,000 GDR citizens still had the brass balls to escape.

...

Emmett: Last night, you met a woman. Delphine Lasalle is out of her depth. Given the climate, I'd hate to see an executive order come down the line that falls in her disinterest.
Lorraine: Her "disinterest"? What do you mean, her disinterest?
Emmett: Don't insult my intelligence, Lorraine. You know exactly what I fucking mean...Hope you get a snapshot.

...

David: He's hardly the most trustworthy person I ever met. Or the fucking brightest.
Lorraine: Wait. You said you hadn't met him.
David: I lied.

...

Lorraine: Percival's trying to set me up.
Delphine: Are you surprised?
Lorraine: Not really. These relationships aren't real. They're just a means to an end.
Delphine: When you tell the truth, you look different. Your eyes change.
Lorraine: Thanks for the warning.

...

Spyglass: I realize I may not be as valuable to some people and...some people may even want me dead, but what choice do I have?
Lorraine: You're no good to me dead. And I've never lost a package.
Spyglass: I know.

...

David [amidst a sea of umbrellas]: This was never part of the plan.
Lorraine: It was part of mine.

...

Lorraine [to Spyglass]: Fasten your seat belt.

...

Lorraine [to Eric]: You sent me into a fucking hornet's nest. I was made by the KGB from the moment my feet touched the ground. Maybe even before. But then you knew that, didn't you? You had your doubts about Percival, and you used me to shake him down.

...

David [to Emmett]: You know, a beautiful Italian girl once said to me, "David, you can't unfuck what's been fucked." Women are always getting in the way of progress, aren't they?

...

Delphine [on the phone]: Don't underestimate me, Percival.
David: Oh, Lasalle, listen to me very carefully. You have no idea who you're dealing with.
Delphine: You set me up. You...
David [sighing]: Come on, now. This is the game.
Delphine: I know your secrets, David, and I can play this game better than you think.

...

David [to the camera]: There's only one question left to ask. Who won? And what was the fucking game anyway? To win, first you have to know whose side you're on. In our line of work, that's right up there with black holes or "to be or not to be." You fight the good fight, and then one day you wake up and you realize that all you were was Satan's little helper...Ironic. The news will tell them there will be no more secrets. But you and I, we both know that's not true. The world is run on secrets.

...

Lorraine: You went to the KGB to take me out. You were too fucking scared to do it yourself.
David: Too smart, more like.

...

Lorraine: Are you going to lie till the very end?
David: Truth and lies. People like us don't know the difference.
Lorraine: No, we know the difference, David. We choose to ignore it. Isn't that right, Comrade Satchel?
David: So that's how you'll make it work.
Lorraine: "It's a double pleasure to deceive the deceiver."
David: Well played...

...

C: We're choosing to bury this one, Broughton. Your mission never took place. This conversation never happened. I'm putting you on leave, effective immediately. We'll start the next decade well rested.
Lorraine: C? What should I wear...for my tea with the Queen?

...

Lorraine: [to Bremovych as he dies]: Did you really think I was going to give you that list?... Before you die, I want you to get this through that thick, primitive skull. I never worked for you. You worked for me...Every false intel I gave you, a rip in the iron curtain. Every piece of intel you gave me, a bullet in my fucking gun. I want my life back.

...

Emmett: : Let's go home.
Lorraine: That sounds good. Let's go home.
Emmett: "Cocksucker"? Really?
Lorraine: I'm glad it was convincing.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 23444
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

He's got issues. Serious psychological issues. But serious psychological issues can, for all practical purposes, mean anything. Also, how do you hold someone with serious psychological issues responsible for what they do? How do you reason with them? How do you separate the part about nature from the part about nurture?

And how serious? As in, for example, dangerous...life threatening?

Then you get to this part: What's it all mean? Only here as one reviewer put it, "it's one of those movies that you need to think about and even by thinking about it you may still not be able to understand it."

Let's just say that, as with so many things relating to complex psychological interactions between and among complex human beings, it's all open to interpretation. And [apparently] it helps to have a familiarity with Ancient Greek mythology. Iphigenia and Agamemnon in particular.

Or, as another reviewer put it:

This primitive drama involves a heart surgeon Steven Murphy and his ophthalmologist wife Anna. That is, the elemental force erupts in the seat of modern science, rationalism, humanity. The professional curers are profoundly afflicted. Their reason is helpless, irrelevant, once the old pagan gods have been stirred to ire.

I liked this film in particular because it revolves around a subject that I am rather obsessed with myself: moral ambiguity in a [presumably] No God world: http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2017/10/29/ ... acred-deer

Only here it is all intertwined in a world in which "the Gods" are ever hovering up there or out there somewhere.

Be sure to click on the special feature: An Impossible Conundrum

And let's not forget that this from the director of The Lobster above.

IMDb

Heart surgery scenes in the film are real. They were filmed during an operation on a real patient who was undergoing quadruple bypass surgery which Colin Farrell attended.

The film's title comes from the ending of the tragedy Iphigenia in Aulis by Euripides.

When Steven is at the school for the parent teacher conference, the principal tells him that Kim wrote a paper on Iphigenia for which she got an A, and that was read aloud to the class. Iphigenia, in Greek mythology, is the daughter of Agamemnon. She who was to be sacrificed for the sins of her father.

trivia at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt5715874/tri ... =ttqu_sa_1
at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killi ... acred_Deer
trailer: https://youtu.be/CQFdGfwChtw

THE KILLING OF A SACRED DEER [2017]
Written in part and directed by Yorgos Lanthimos

Steven [speaking to an audience]: A full 40 years have passed since the German cardiologist Andreas Gruentzig performed the first coronary angioplasty, on September 16th, 1977. Today, that first patient is still alive and well. Doctor Gruentzig, however, had an unfortunate accident and met with an untimely end. In short, he is one of those rare cases where we can say, the operation was a success, but unfortunately the doctor didn't make it.

...

Bob: Have you got hair under your arms yet?
Martin: Yes.
Kim: I just got my first period.

...

Martin [to Kim]: I'd prefer if it was just the two of us. I get nervous around dogs in case they get into a fight with another dog. The idea of separating dogs fighting scares me.

...

Anna [Martin's mother to Steven]: Can I take a closer look at your hands?

...

Anna: Don't worry, he's definitely asleep. There's nothing to be afraid of. In any case, he wants this as much as I do.
Steven: I have to go.
Anna: I'm sorry if I made you feel awkward, I didn't mean to. But I won't let you leave until you've tried my tart.

...

Martin: My chest, it hurts. My heart. I'm worried.
Steven: There's no need for you to be worried.
Martin: I'm worried because it's hereditary.
Steve: You're too young to be worried.
Martin: That's what you said about my father. He didn't smoke. He ate a very healthy diet. He went swimming almost every day. He should have come out of that surgery alive, but he died.

We can see where this is going.

Martin [to Steven]: Okay, you do have more hair than I do but not three times more. Me and my mom thought it would be nice if you came by for dinner tonight. We could watch the rest of the movie. Does eight sound good for you?

...

Martin: Can I tell you a secret? But don't tell her I told you. I think she, I think she likes you. I mean, she's attracted to you. But she says that's not true, but it is, I'm sure. And, to be honest, I think you're perfect for each other. You'd make a great couple. She's got a great body. You've seen it for yourself. She lost weight and she has a really great figure.
Steven: Your mother is very beautiful, but the idea that she and I could ever be together is ludicrous. Let me remind you, I'm a married man. And I love my wife very much and my kids, and that we are very happy together.

Too little, too late.

Matthew [a colleague]: I forgot to tell you, I saw that boy yesterday. Your daughter's schoolmate.
Steven: Martin?
Matthew: Yes, right, Martin. Couldn't remember his name. He was hanging around your car. It looked like he was waiting for you. I tried to say hello but he pretended not to see me.
Steven: That's impossible. Can't have been him.
Matthew: I could be wrong but it looked a lot like him.

...

Kim: Dad, do you know who I saw today?
Steven: Who, darling?
Kim: Martin.
Steven: Martin who?
Kim: Martin, that boy who came over here the other day. The son of your ex-patient. He brought me back from choir practice on his friend's motorcycle. He's really funny. I laughed so hard my ribs hurt.

...

Steven: Robert, do you have any idea what time it is? Get up and get dressed.
Bob: I can't get up.
Steven: You have 10 minutes to get washed, dressed and eat your breakfast. I'm not going to drive you to school and neither is your mother.
Bob: I can't get up.
Steven: Bob, get up and get dressed and stop messing around.
Bob: Dad. My legs. They're numb. I can't move them. I can't stand up.

...

Martin [whispering in Steven's ear]: Come to the cafeteria upstairs. Come whenever you can.
Steven: I don't think I'll have time today, as you might imagine. We'll talk some other time. Martin: No, today, to the cafeteria. Just for 10 minutes, don't stand me up like the last time.

...

Martin: I won't keep you much longer, even though you have been devoting less and less time to me lately. I wanted to say one more thing, I'm really sorry about Bob.
Steven: It's nothing serious.
Martin: No, it is. That critical moment we both knew would come some day? Here it is. That time is now. You know what I mean.
Steven: No, I don't. Listen, Martin, I don't have time for this.
Martin: Okay, I'm gonna explain this very quickly so that I don't hold you up. Yes, it's exactly what you think. Just like you killed a member of my family, now you've gotta kill a member of your family to balance things out, understand? I can't tell you who to kill, of course. That's for you to decide, but if you don't do it, they will all get sick and die. Bob will die, Kim will die, your wife will die. They will all get sick and die. One, paralysis of the limbs. Two, refusal of food to the point of starvation. Three, bleeding from the eyes, four, death. One, two, three, four. Don't worry, you won't get sick. You just gotta stay calm, that's all. There, I said it, as quickly as I could. I hope I haven't kept you too long. One more thing. I'll be very quick. You only have a few days to decide who to kill. Once stage three kicks in...You remember what stage three is? It's bleeding from the eyes, that's stage three. Once the bleeding happens, it's only a matter of hours before they die. Okay, there, I have nothing more to say. Unless you've, unless you've any questions?

...

Steven: Anna, if Bob was near-sighted, or had a cataract or glaucoma then your opinion really would be valuable. But, thankfully, Bob's eyesight is perfect. And I can honestly say that if he ever needed glasses you'd be the first person I'd consult. But right now the boy can't eat and he's paralyzed in both legs, so, I'm sorry, I'm not remotely interested in your medical opinion.

...

Steven: I'll tell you a secret, something I've never told you before. Then you'll tell me one. And whoever tells the best secret wins, okay? When I was your age I'd only just started masturbating. And I'd only just started ejaculating. Only a little, barely a drop. I was worried that I had some kind of a problem because at school I'd heard all sorts of stories. Then one day, when my father had had a lot to drink and my brothers were out and he was sleeping in the bedroom, I crept inside, put my hand on his penis and started stroking it until he ejaculated. The sheets were covered in sperm. I got scared and ran out. I've never told anyone that before. Now it's your turn to tell me a secret.

...

Steven: Bob, if all this is just an act, you should know that if you tell me now, I won't punish you. And neither will your mother. We won't be angry with you either.
Bob: It's not an act.
Steven: But if it is an act and you don't stop this stupid joke right now, your punishment won't just be no TV for two months. I will take my electric razor and I will shave your head and make you eat your hair. I mean it, I will literally make you eat your hair. I'm not kidding.
Bob: It's not an act.

...

Steven [pounding on the door]: I know you're in there! Open the door or I will smash it down! Martin! Open the door or I will smash it down and I will fuck you and your mother just the way you wanted! If anything happens to my kids or my wife, you'll die in prison! Do you know that? You'll die in prison!

...

Anna: Had you been drinking when you operated on his father?
Steven: Only a little. That had nothing to do with the outcome. A surgeon never kills a patient. An anesthesiologist can kill a patient but a surgeon never can.

...

Kim: Don't be scared, Mom. Don't get hysterical. It's not that tragic. Sometimes your body hurts from not moving and you can't sleep. That's all. The important thing is to make sure that everything you need is within reach. That's all. You'll see. You won't be able to move either. But you'll get used to it.

...

Anna: If my husband made a mistake, if out of negligence or, I don't know what, he caused this tragic thing to happen, I don't understand why I should have to pay the price. Why my children should have to pay the price.
Martin: You know, not long after my dad died, someone told me that I eat spaghetti the exact same way he did. They said what an extraordinary impression this fact had made on them. Look at the boy, look how he eats spaghetti. Exactly the same way his father did. He sticks his fork in. He twirls it around, around, around, around, around. Then he sticks it in his mouth. At that time, I thought I was the only one who ate spaghetti that way. Me and my dad. Later, of course, I found out that everyone eats spaghetti the exact same way. Exact same way, exact same way. This made me very upset. Very upset. Maybe even, um, more upset than when they told me he was dead. My dad. I don't know if what is happening is fair, but it's the only thing I can think of that's close to justice.

...

Anna [giving him a hand job]: Had Steven been drinking?
Matthew: Yes.
Anna: Can it be considered his mistake?
Matthew: Yes. It wasn't mine, that's for sure. You know an anesthesiologist is never to blame for the bad outcome of an operation. The surgeon is always responsible.

...

Steven: This meat is delicious. You were right, after all. The children are much better here. I was even thinking I might take them to the beach house, for a few days. A little fresh air and a change of scenery might do us all good. Do you know what I've been craving? Mashed potato. Why don't you make some tomorrow?
Anna: You have beautiful hands. I never noticed before. Everyone's been telling me lately what beautiful hands you have and now I can see for myself, nice and clean. But so what if they're beautiful? They're lifeless. Sometimes Steven, you're just an incompetent man who goes on and on saying stupid things like, "Let's do a scan. Let's do an ultrasound. Let's wear brown socks. Let's make mashed potatoes. Let's go to the beach house."
Steven: Excuse me?
Anna: Our two children are dying in the other room, but yes, I can make you mashed potatoes tomorrow.
Steven: Please don't talk to me that way.
Anna: If you don't like it, why don't you go and live with Martin's mother? I'll bet she'll talk to you better.
Steven: You wanted the kids to come home and they came home. What else you want me to do?
Anna: Something to put an end to all of this. That's what I want. Can you do that? You do realize Steven, we're in this situation because of you.
Steven: So what do you suggest? Tell me. Oh wait, I know. I've got it. There's a way we can put a stop to all of this. All we need to do is find the tooth of a baby crocodile, the blood of a pigeon and the pubes of a virgin. And then we just have to burn them all before sunset. Let me see, do we have any spare teeth lying around? Let me see, do we have any spare teeth lying around? Teeth, pubes? Nope, nothin' here. There's nothing in here either. Let me see, nothing here. Pubes, teeth? Nothing in this box either. Where are they? I'm sure they were here earlier, I put them here myself. Who's been moving things around? It's unbelievable. I don't suppose you've got any pubes I can have, by any chance? Oh, I forgot, you don't have any left. We don't have any of the things we need.

...

Steven [to Anna motioning to Martin, beaten up and tied to a chair in the basement]: You remember Martin, don't you? He came by for a play-date. I told him the kids were feeling a little unwell and he'll have to stay here until they get better.

...

Steven: Do you think your mother is proud of you, Martin? Do you think she is happy that her beloved son is a murderer?

...

Martin: Don't you understand that you're wasting time? And you don't have much time left.
Steven: I said stop talking.
Martin: Steven, it's gonna be better once it's done. Start over, clean slate. Don't you get it? Sometimes I think you're naive but you can't be naive. You're a man of science, you can't be an idiot. But, if I'd only just met you, I would seriously question your depth of judgment.
[Steven punches him in the face]
Martin: I just want, want to show you an example, that's all. Just one little example to show you what I mean.

...

Steven [pointing a rifle at Martin]: Now, Martin, you'll know what it's like to die. What it's like when your head cracks open and your brains blow out.
Anna: Don't shoot him.
Martin: And then? Shoot me, then what? Answer.
Steven: I'll bury you in the yard! And you'll rot, that's what.
Martin: You won't be able to explain it. You won't understand how it could have happened. You'll say, "But I only killed one person. How come four people are dead? I only shot one." So if you're gonna dig a hole in the yard, better make it a big one.

Now things really get surreal. Cue Euripides.

Kim: Bob, something terrible happened yesterday. I lost the MP player that Martin gave me. I don't know what's wrong with me. I've lost two MP players in the last 10 days. So I'd like to ask you a favor. Can I have your MP player when you're dead?

...

School principal: The boy's very good at math and physics. Kim, on the other hand, apart from her natural aptitude for music, is very good at literature and history, areas in which Bob lags behind. She wrote a brilliant essay on the tragedy of Iphigenia which she read out in class. She received an A plus.
Steven: What about their behavior in class?
Principal: They're both a little restless, I'd say. Equally so. I mean, I've had the occasional complaint from their teachers about some minor misdemeanors but they've never been rude to any of the staff. In any case, if they had ever acted out, we would have told you about it.
Steven: Do you especially like one of them more than the other? If you had to choose between them, which would say is the best?
Principal: That's a difficult question. I'm not sure I can give you an answer. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you.

...

Martin: Anna, if you're gonna do something, you'd better be fast. The boy is about to die.

...

Anna [to Steven]: I believe the most logical thing, no matter how harsh this may sound, is to kill a child. Because we can have another child. I still can and you can. And if you can't, we can try IVF, but I'm sure we can.

...

Kim [to her parents]: I'm sorry for what I did tonight. I don't know what I was thinking. I was only thinking about myself and no one else. That was wrong of me. I was frightened. I shouldn't have been. Let me be the one who atones for your sins, Dad. Kill me right here in front of your eyes so that you can be sure that I die, in case some fate spares me at the last moment. Kill me right here in front of you and leave me with the ultimate joy of saving my own mother and beloved brother from certain death. Mom, tell him. Dad, please. I would do anything for you. I would even die for you and here's my chance to prove it.

...

Anna: I let him go.
Steven: What are you talking about?
Anna: He's not downstairs. I let him go.
Steven: Why would you do that? Why did you let him go? Answer me!
Anna: Are you a complete idiot? It's not gonna make any difference, Steven. It's not gonna solve anything, we both know that.

...

Kim: Do your legs hurt, Mom, do they feel numb? Does your back hurt, has it started yet?

...

...

Steven: Bob's eyes are bleeding. Come to the living room.
Anna: Now?
Steven: Yes. Now.
Anna: Steven, where are the children?
Anna: I think I'm gonna wear that black dress that you like.
Steven: Wear whatever you want. Just hurry.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
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iambiguous
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