System

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System

Postby Magnus Anderson » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:08 pm

The subject of this thread is a very simple question: what is a system?

I am not speaking of political systems but systems in general.

My early attempt at a definition would be "a set of related variables". Two variables are related if the value of one variable limits what value the other variable can assume. If no variable limits what value the other variable can assume then the two variables are said to be unrelated. There can be any number of variables in a system. However, every variable must be related to at least one other variable in the system if it is to be considered part of that system. Variables that are unrelated do not form a system but merely a set of variables (or more specifically, a set of unrelated variables.)

Every relation between two variables is such that one variable is the limiting (a.k.a. independent) variable and the other variable is the limited (a.k.a. dependent) variable. The limiting variable is the variable the value of which limits what values the other variable can assume. The other variable is the limited variable. Within a system, every variable must perform at least one of the two functions. However, variables can also perform both functions i.e. they can be both limited and limiting variables provided that variables that limit them and variables they limit are two non-overlapping sets of variables. Variables that limit other variables without being limited themselves by some other variables are known as "input" variables. Their values are either determined by factors that are outside of the system or they are not determined by any other value. In logic, they are known as "premises". They are also known as "knowns". Variables that are limited by other variables but that do not limit other variables themselves are known as "output" variables. The values of these variables are determined by the system itself. In logic, they are known as "conclusions". They are also known as "knowns". However, this may not be entirely true. In reality, any variable within the system can be treated as "input" or "output" variable. It's an arbitrary choice. However, some variables are more fit to be "input" variables and other variables are more fit to be "output" variables. In this sense, the claim that purely limiting variables are "input" variables and purely limited variables are "output" variables remains true.

When the value of every variable in the system is set what we get is a set of values that potentially represents one possible configuration of the system. When the value of every variable is such that it respects the rules of the system, which are determined by the relations between variables, then the resulting configuration is set to be legal. Otherwise, it is said to be illegal. It is thus possible to define the concept of system as "a set of possible configurations" where every configuration is represented using some sort of set of data. However, this definition is too broad so it must be narrowed in order to rule out non-systemic sets of possible configurations.

There is a lot more to be said on the subject of systems than this single post can cover. For example, I want to know whether systems should permit variables to be in one kind of relation with more than one variable. For example, I want to know whether a single variable should be allowed to limit more than one variable in the system. Also, I want to know whether every value of a variable should be in the same kind of relation with other variables. Also, I want to know whether every relation between two variables should follow the rules of mathematical function i.e. whether every value of variable X should be associated with exactly one value of variable Y. More on this some other time.
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Re: System

Postby encode_decode » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:01 pm

    I imagine a system in two ways -

      first: "self contained",
      and second: "externally driven".
    Externally driven systems are naturally a part of other systems or else where would their input come from?

    The interesting part for me is that to be a system you must be able to define self contained parts within the said system else it is a part of a larger system.

    It makes me wonder whether true systems actually exist.

    Just my two cents for what it is worth.

    :-k
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      Re: System

      Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:01 am

      What is an example of a self-contained system?
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      Re: System

      Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:09 am

      My guess would be that a set of variables is said to be self-contained if there are no variables within it that are not completely limited by some other variable(s) within that set. I think he has a problem with variables that are purely limiting/independent. My position is that there can be no systems without such variables. Any set of variables that does not include such variables does not count as a system. A system cannot be a system without being indeterministic to some degree.
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      Re: System

      Postby encode_decode » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:41 am

      WendyDarling wrote:What is an example of a self-contained system?

      I cannot think of any self contained system. Systems are a matter of convenience for the human mind to abstract away undesirable details when trying to understand any desirable set of components within the universe.
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        Re: System

        Postby Prismatic567 » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:25 am

        Basic production systems
        A system is a set of components arranged in the order needed to carry out a particular function - in this case designing and making a product. Systems can consist of mechanical, electrical, electronic, pneumatic or hydraulic components. Some systems will combine components from more than one of these groups.

        Key parts of a system
        input - whatever goes into the system
        process - where various kinds of operation take place
        output - whatever is produced by the system
        feedback - where information about the output is used to change the input, or change the process, or start up another system.

        This diagram shows how these elements interact:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesi ... rev1.shtml

        Image

        The input of a system can be an output from another system, and the output can be transfer to be the input of another system.
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        Re: System

        Postby encode_decode » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:14 am

        Prismatic567 wrote:This diagram shows how these elements interact:

        Image

        The input of a system can be an output from another system, and the output can be transfer to be the input of another system.

        Exactly right. If one is to think the right way about it then you will see that the feedback then becomes related to the self contained system - but no system is self contained so it is an illusion of sorts - not so much on my part, it is just the nature of the concept, system. A system is defined. The definition is for convenience.

        Realistically systems are everywhere and are interconnected components of a larger system.

        The output of a system is variable and so therefore the input of the system must also be variable because all of the other components of a system are relatively fixed to the rules of the system. In some cases the rules of the system allow for flexibility which means that rules can be variable and probably usually are so as to maintain a consistent output of the system under review.

        Consistent desired output then shows that there is more than one output id est waste output.

        I also agree that systems are not deterministic to some degree.
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          Re: System

          Postby WendyDarling » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:08 pm

          Elsewhere, the Earth was suggested as a relatively closed/self-contained system, but I disagree on the grounds that the Sun, a crucial external force, supports the Earth's life and without it, the Earth would be a dark, cold, lifeless, systemless rock.

          Can't we simply do away with the idea of any self-contained system?
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          Re: System

          Postby Magnus Anderson » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:45 pm

          Note that if a set of related variables is not self-contained, in the sense that there are variables within it that are not completely limited by other variables within the set, that does not mean it is a part of some larger system.
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          Re: System

          Postby Prismatic567 » Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:19 am

          In general all systems are open-ended systems, i.e. there is no limit to it to its inputs and outputs plus every other variable is subject to change even the detail system processes.

          One example of a closed-system is a theological system where God is the limit.
          I believe there are other absolutely closed-system besides the above.
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          Re: System

          Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:16 am

          Prismatic567 wrote:In general all systems are open-ended systems, i.e. there is no limit to it to its inputs and outputs plus every other variable is subject to change even the detail system processes.

          One example of a closed-system is a theological system where God is the limit.
          I believe there are other absolutely closed-system besides the above.

          Your idea is good in how it's framed with God being the end all be all, but it is only theoretical since God cannot be empirically proven to be true. I was asking for an actual example that undeniably exists.
          I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

          I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

          Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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          Re: System

          Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:46 pm

          This thread is not about systems that exist within the environment that we inhabit. In general, it is not about systems that exist. Rather, it is about systems that can possibly exist. As such, a system with an input variable X for which there is no variable Y, within or outside of the system, that completely limits what value variable X can assume is a legitimate system even if we cannot find a single such system in reality.

          It is also not about systems of specific kind (such as, for example, physical systems.) Rather, it is about systems of any kind. It is about systems in general. In this sense, even mathematical equations are considered systems. For example, \( x + y = z \) is a system where \(x\), \(y\) and \(z\) are variables and \(+\) and \(=\) are relations between (some of) these variables. Also, it is a system where \(x\) and \(y\) are purely limiting (or independent) variables and where \(z\) is purely limited (or dependent) variable. The fact that this equation is a system is shown by the fact that these variables cannot assume any value. If \(x\) assumes \(3\) and \(y\) assumes \(2\) then \(z\) cannot assume anything other than \(5\). \(2+3=6\), for example, would be an illegal configuration.
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          Re: System

          Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:00 pm

          When you write about possible systems in known terms, you are already speaking in terms of what knowledge exists and what inhabits this world. The very language you use to dream of possible systems is a system in use itself. How are you going to forego actual reality to conjure what doesn't exist but may be possible without falling prey to specific systems that already exist in this world?
          I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

          I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

          Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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          Re: System

          Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:30 pm

          How do you come up with a centaur? You take elements of a real-life horse and a real-life human and combine them in a specific manner. Centaurs are imaginary systems made out of two real-life systems: the upper body of a human and the lower body of a horse. Note that centaurs are said to be imaginary systems. This is because as a whole they are nowhere to be found in reality.
          I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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          Re: System

          Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:44 pm

          You did exactly what I asked about avoiding? You cannot not give specific examples that do not already exist (horses/humans exist) using a word system (already exists) making specific connections/claims (that already exist). Is inventing a new system even possible, one that doesn't rely on specific physical/mental systems that already exist? Try again. It would have to be a new language of logic.

          (An aside: There is more than one dimension to reality, thus you may not have visited the dimension with centaurs yet.)
          I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

          I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

          Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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          Re: System

          Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:04 pm

          Invention is about rearrangement. It's about taking elements that already exist and then rearranging them to form objects that may or may not exist. Horses and humans exist but centaurs don't.
          I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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          Re: System

          Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:14 pm

          Magnus Anderson wrote:Invention is about rearrangement. It's about taking elements that already exist and then rearranging them to form objects that may or may not exist. Horses and humans exist but centaurs don't.

          No original ideas have ever or may ever exist is what you seem to have written if invention relies on ideas that already exist simply rearranged. If the foundation of an idea or invention is not original, the thing is not original. You are taking us off topic. :evilfun: I'm innocent. :D
          I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

          I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

          Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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          Re: System

          Postby Magnus Anderson » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:30 pm

          Something is original if it hasn't been done before. If you came up with the idea of centaur at the point in time when noone before you did then your idea is original. It does not matter that it is based on real-life elements. Invention isn't merely about repeating what has been done before. It is about taking what has been done before and then rearranging it or modifying it. You didn't came up with the idea of horse or the idea of human. You came up with the idea of centaur which is neither horse nor human.
          I got a philosophy degree, I'm not upset that I can't find work as a philosopher. It was my decision, and I knew that it wasn't a money making degree, so I get money elsewhere.
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          Re: System

          Postby WendyDarling » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:49 pm

          Spalowse means juorinyana in Stinkletine. An few words from an original language found in Tinedon Kmingdooms. ^Original like that?

          Whatever I rearrange is original the first time around? And it is a new system. This is another topic.
          I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

          I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

          Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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