Exactly, the 80% are consumers and they are here to seek out the 20%, the producers.
Production in Nature is rare. Consumption is the norm. It is rare to “move things forward” or to “progress” in life, Evolution. And progress requires conflict, competition, overcoming adversity, etc.
K: the key point I wish to point out here is this idea of “self help psychologies of all kinds
of varieties”
what is the goal? I mean, what is the goal of human beings? is it not to become better?
and philosophy is one means as is psychology… if the goal is to create
better human beings, then psychology is one means even if it is pop psychology…
mysticsm and occultism and psychology are all means of becoming aware…
and that is the goal on the path to our becoming human…
mysticism and occultism are just steps along the way… not steps I would
take, but steps nevertheless…as long as it is understood, that they are just
steps and not the final answers then mysticism and occultism is fine…
but they are not the final answers and not the final step…
I find in my own life I did follow the mysticism and occultism at one time,
that was just a tempory road and I moved on…because the road to being human
is a series of long roads sometime leading somewhere and sometimes not going
anywhere…sometimes we get so emotionally invested we cannot let go of something…
but to move to the next step of becoming human… we must leave one road
and take another and another and another… many roads leads us to becoming
human…
philosophical discussion is one road and mysticism is one road and occultism a road,
and even pop psychology is just another road…
what road is your road?
Kropotkin
Peter wrote: What is the goal?
The goals are different depending on the person, and understanding of what this “better” also differs from person to person. Do you think all people who attend, say, law school, have the same goals? I say no. Some want to learn the process of jurisprudence, some care about law and order, some want to be respected, and others just want to be rich. Same with philosophy. Different personal goals.
And who said that philosophy is synonymous with being a “better” person anyway? I don’t see how being a “better” person plays into philosophy. Better how and in reference to what? Sure, a philosophy professor living on college campus may think he’s a better person for spending his whole life reading and writing philosophical academic papers. Is he a better human being for knowing more philosophical theories? A new age hippie may think he is a better human being by believing he is part of eternal cosmic consciousness. Is he a better human being for it? What the hell is a “better human being” anyway? And does having “good” intentions only, qualify as being a good or better-human-being?
K: as I have to be at work in less then an hour… I’ll shall be brief and fill in the
rest tomorrow…why do philosophy? to gain Knowledge… ok, and what shall
we do with that knowledge? it is the Greeks that connected knowledge with being
better…the wise man is the knowledgable man and the one who is “better”…
At it’s heart, Philososphy is about gaining knowledge and that knowledge
must do something or it is wasted time and effort…
and this concept of “better”… this is a value and philosophy is
best with values and not with facts… better then what?
if we understand systems, better would be something that made
the system more efficient or more stable… in our system,
something that is better… is something that improves our current
system… that is better… again, words like better and improve
have certain connotations…but are they worthy goals?
I believe so… but to understand what better and improve is
will take more time then I have at the moment…
I will leave you with this… if not for the improvement of
human beings, what is the point of philosophy?
Kropotkin
As for myself, I’m here looking for a change of mind…
I have become quite depressed since loosing my faith in God, and I want (in vain?) somebody to convince me that there is a God, to convince me that when I die I don’t just stop existing…
I want to believe in God, the after life; but like Spinoza pointed out, belief by its very nature can’t be forced…
What if there is no God and all those who believe that there is, are simply mistaken?
Then wanting to be convinced that there is a God is a silly thing to want.
When dealing with things that cannot be changed, one ought to want “what is”.
Despite the specific reasons, and the individual differences, there is a definitive power that wisdom has over people.
Powerful answers to powerful questions, knowledge that can change lives. That is what people are seeking, why you are here.
Peter wrote: “What is the point of philosophy?”
Why not instead of jumping to “better” human being first finding out who or what a human being is and what his role in the universe is. Somewhere along the line a man has decided that he can be whatever he wishes and be able to justify whatever things he wants to do. So, “better” becomes relative to one’s perception of who one is, which as we can see today, can be anything whatsoever.
How often are those who spout rhetoric about “bettering humanity” or “being a better christian” genuine and honest with their convictions? Or, are they liars?
As-if philosophy must be to the benefit to all, rather than a few? If people forego hard work, gaining wisdom, then what right do others have to it?
That’s like saying, “I’m entitled to the fruits of your labors …because humanity.”
Doesn’t it come down to…who are you producing philosophy for…yourself only or others? Communication and human connectivity, sharing, are strong motivators for letting the cat out of the bag, of course, put pride and ego on top of that and you have sunken ships from loose lips or typing finger tips. Billions of individual perceptions or misconceptions mess intentions up no matter how pure they were set upon so ideas are loaded weapons to be handled by those who care.
K: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…
if we hold these words to be true, and I do, then we must to the best of our
abilities, share what we can with those who need it…even if they
don’t met our “standards” of working hard or unable or unwilling to gain
wisdom…in the pursuit of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”,
which is the minuim in regards to what one should expect out of life,
because being human is enough to justify our investment in both people
and the human race…is enough to give to people even if they don’t met with
our approval…I happily give my taxes to give to those who need it, even
if I don’t approve of them…
this lies in the idea of society in which we are connected…
there isn’t you and me, there is us…that idea of society is
the one we need to follow…it is about the betterment of society…
and the fact is, like any system, the system is only as strong as the
weakest link… and if we don’t take care of those who need it, then
what does it say about us, as human beings…and the betterment
of society is about all of us, not just the strong among us…
the strong can take care of themselves, it is those who can’t take
care of themselves who we must do everything in our power to take care of…
why?
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal”
and being created equal, means we must treat everyone equal and promote
the values that equality suggest… for from equality comes justice…
to treat equal is to be just…Equality and justice are the same thing…
but I am sure you have a problem with justice also…
for the nature of man requires both equality and justice…
Kropotkin
I’m unconvinced. How is taxation any different than theft? If a man hires me for a job then why are you and your cronies entitled to a % of it, and which %? 25%? 50%?
Would you raise the tax rate to 100% if given the opportunity? Complete slavery to the state?
Isn’t taxation a deprivation of the rights of men and individuals? What “Right” do you have to another man’s work or his business dealings?
K: ummmm, I’ve spent an entire thread on defining man and discovering what a human being is…
see “a new understanding of today, time and space” thread and I’ve written
over 1350 posts on who a human being is and what is their role in the universe is…
it is still a work in progress, I grant you but I have worked harder on this area then
anyone else around here…
Kropotkin
I only give away “free philosophy” when my head is full and I need to clear out some memory space.
Kropotkin is here… for your taxes!
At least somebody answered the particular question.
K: I trust you know the person I purposely named myself after…
Prince Peter Kropotkin… I was an anarchist for many years, and
I’ve read Kropotkin and Bakunin and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon…
Proudhon was the one who coined the phrase “property is theft”
and it was as simple step to “taxes are theft”…
I am still an anarchist at heart…and probably will be all my life…
with that said, I also understand that we don’t have complete freedom…
you don’t and I don’t and no one does… the freedom that we have in this
society is limited… and no one complains about that… you cannot shout
fire in a crowed theater…and we also accept that we have other limitations
in the state… we must obey the law… we must stop at stop signs…
to drive a car we need a licence…and there are punishments for not obeying
the law…we have a society… and we are a civilization… Just like ancient Rome
and Egypt and Greek…what did those civilizations have? a strong central
government…in fact, to be considered to be a civilization, one must have
a strong central government…and what makes up a civilization?
Roads and schools and hospitals and sewage plants and policeman
and garbage men…each of these play their role in making up
a civilization…to those like you who ask for, no demand the benefits
of civilization without having to pay for it, I say shame…
and to pay for all that civilization?
how else would you pay for all the benefits you get from civilization?
if you don’t like to pay for these benefits, I am sure you are most welcomed
to go to Somalia or some other African nation that is barely functional
and doesn’t have the infrastructure of a civilization…
I like my civilization and its infrastructure that allows me to live in
peace and prosperity…and to get that all civilization and infrastructure
I gotta pay for it… and I am ok with that…it is too bad you are selfish to
want the benefits of civilization without having to pay for it…
Kropotkin
Good for you, Peter, good for you.
I think we have our own Peter-the-Great here!
20% of those who have income pay 80% of the income tax; 20% of the employees of a company are responsible for 80% of the profit; 20% of the products of a supermarket represent 80% of the sales; 20% of the scientists get 80% of the quotations, 20% of the scientists write 80% of the scientific texts. And just: 80% of the links on the internet point to 20% of the webpages. So the 80%/20% distribution concerns the world wide web as well. 20% of all internet links attrac 80% of all internet links.
80% of all (currently 45800) ILP posts exist because of the fact that 20% of all ILP posts exist. 20% of all ILP posts deliver 80% of all really philosophical (which are a few) ILP posts. And if we assume that the number of the ILP main-posters (those ILP members who are mainly posting, regardless in which of the ILP subforums) is about 40, then 32 (80%) out of 40 (100%) main-posters post on ILP because of 8 (20%) out of 40 (100%) main-posters. This also means that this 8 ILP members are the only ones who really deserve to be called “philosophers”. But perhaps the number of the ILP main-posters is not 40, but 20, so that merely 4 ILP members are the only ones who really deserve to be called “philosophers”. 
[tab]I estimate that the average number of the really philosophical ILP posts per day is about 1.5.
Before becoming astouned, you should note that this “1.5 ILP posts per day” also mean “more than 9000 ILP posts since the bginning of ILP in 2001”.[/tab]
Right, most are here to consume and imbibe wisdom. The production of philosophy is rarer and requires distinct characteristics of individuals. Artistry is involved on many levels. But of course the core value is Reason. Without reasoning, advanced thought, then philosophy does not go far. And it is the reasoning faculty that, by popular decree, separates humanity from mere animals. Thus the ability to reason must not be underestimated.
Great philosophers are remarkable and easily recognized by such raw abilities. Philosophers have put the most amount of thought, reason, and examination into the most pivotal and important questions of life. Thus it seems that wisdom overflows from philosophers, and then consumed by the masses. Religion eventually stepped between the two and mediated the relationship between wisdom, wise men, and those of the general public. The religious agents of previous millenniums also became ‘politicians’. Thus religious agents and politicians are very much the enforcers of wisdom. And the wisdom they use has been garnered and collected from sources across centuries.
Consumers place trust in philosophers and philosophy, without even realizing it. It won’t make sense to many why and how they believe in god, or their world views, or hold core values, or have a distinct metaphysics. And the masses don’t really need to make sense of it. Because there is the action of life (representing the Body), versus the contemplation of life (representing the Mind).
A most fundamental lesson is obvious. If your thoughts betray you. If you are wrong and false. Then anything you do with your body, your actions throughout life, will be flawed as well. Any ‘good’ you accomplish would be pure accident, because it was never from what you originally intended (from false premises). This is how people invert their perspective and values, and end up justifying their means in reverse.
Some people, who give up on intelligence and thinking early in life, will then speak much about luck and fortune. That whether anybody does good, bad, or evil, is merely fate rather than what people intend.
Those with the highest intelligence, however, recognizing the causes and reasons underneath existence, will know better. It’s not a matter of luck. It’s a matter of understanding.