Why You Are Here

My experiences have led me to some conclusions. Being ‘right’ is not enough. Being correct, reasoned, logical, rational, are all not enough. Because even if you are right, and there’s almost no way to prove you wrong, doesn’t mean people will agree with you or trust you. Because somebody who is too Righteous, and unlikable, will compel others away. This is why many egotistical thinkers and intelligencia of the distant past, are rejected and unpopular while they were alive, but then taken quickly after they died. People do not want to serve an unlikable persona, no matter how ‘right’ you are.

This is where the Artistry comes in. A philosopher could persuade and convince the masses of practically whatever you want. Because philosophy predates politics. Politicians have the same ability and skill. They can convince and seduce people of almost anything. But politicians are not concerned with truth, meaning, values, and philosophy. Politicians are focused almost entirely on power, and gaining it throughout society, by attempting to control society, and the people within. The primary objective of philosophy and philosophers, is more truth, more wisdom, and more knowledge. Thus the aims of philosopher and politician are divergent.

To persuade and convince people, usually fools and incompetents, is no great feat. Thus it doesn’t really matter if you’re ‘Right’ or whether you can persuade, seduce, and convince others even when you’re ‘Wrong’. For philosophy, the greater truths are the point. So what is wisdom them, in the context of knowledge? Knowledge is empty until you begin to guess whether what you know is true or false. If what a person knows is false then it is obviously dangerous, a liability. If what a person knows is true then it is an asset. Thus wisdom represents an application of judgment, true or false, over knowledge. True knowledge versus false knowledge. And this requires Judgment. Judgment requires Morality. Thus wisdom requires Morality.

Much of knowledge cannot be deemed true or false, without empiricism and realism, without applying and enacting knowledge directly against the world, existence. To put theory into practice. To merge the ideals, with the real.

My main purpose of posting in this forum at present is not to show what I have learned nor to learn any thing new [if there is something new, that is fine]. As far as learning new knowledge within philosophy I undertake that responsibility myself instead of relying on others. These days with the internet it is much easier without having to buy all the necessary books from bookstores.

In philosophy there is a lot of grounds to cover which besides Western Philosophy also include Eastern and other philosophies. The average human like me has limited memory capabilities. Therefore to ensure what is learned is kept afresh the most effective approach is to participate in a discussion forum like this. This is the main purpose why I am here.

To promote effective discussion, I believe it is critically necessary to present one’s philosophical CV and such facts should not be labelled as show off nor boasting. Presenting one’s philosophical CV is a very common thing within the philosophical community as such information do facilitate effective discussions.

At present* not everyone has a strong proclivity for philosophy-proper, but if one has such philosophical propensity, one should go all out at it.
*In the future, all if not at least the average person must develop a high Philosophy-Quotient as a member of Team-Human and this will be facilitated and enabled with new technology.

The 80% are the effect of the 20%. So, the 80% are here because of the 20%. :sunglasses:

So you are not here to learn, or to produce, but rather to reinforce your pre-established beliefs. That sounds like a Fundamentalist position, like a Christian who has a fixed ideal of God, that comes to strengthen her conclusions. However, even reinforcing your preconceived ideals is a learning experience. It is another type of learning, perhaps without you even being aware of it.

Exactly, the 80% are consumers and they are here to seek out the 20%, the producers.

Production in Nature is rare. Consumption is the norm. It is rare to “move things forward” or to “progress” in life, Evolution. And progress requires conflict, competition, overcoming adversity, etc.

K: the key point I wish to point out here is this idea of “self help psychologies of all kinds
of varieties”

what is the goal? I mean, what is the goal of human beings? is it not to become better?
and philosophy is one means as is psychology… if the goal is to create
better human beings, then psychology is one means even if it is pop psychology…

mysticsm and occultism and psychology are all means of becoming aware…
and that is the goal on the path to our becoming human…
mysticism and occultism are just steps along the way… not steps I would
take, but steps nevertheless…as long as it is understood, that they are just
steps and not the final answers then mysticism and occultism is fine…
but they are not the final answers and not the final step…

I find in my own life I did follow the mysticism and occultism at one time,
that was just a tempory road and I moved on…because the road to being human
is a series of long roads sometime leading somewhere and sometimes not going
anywhere…sometimes we get so emotionally invested we cannot let go of something…
but to move to the next step of becoming human… we must leave one road
and take another and another and another… many roads leads us to becoming
human…

philosophical discussion is one road and mysticism is one road and occultism a road,
and even pop psychology is just another road…

what road is your road?

Kropotkin

Peter wrote: What is the goal?

The goals are different depending on the person, and understanding of what this “better” also differs from person to person. Do you think all people who attend, say, law school, have the same goals? I say no. Some want to learn the process of jurisprudence, some care about law and order, some want to be respected, and others just want to be rich. Same with philosophy. Different personal goals.
And who said that philosophy is synonymous with being a “better” person anyway? I don’t see how being a “better” person plays into philosophy. Better how and in reference to what? Sure, a philosophy professor living on college campus may think he’s a better person for spending his whole life reading and writing philosophical academic papers. Is he a better human being for knowing more philosophical theories? A new age hippie may think he is a better human being by believing he is part of eternal cosmic consciousness. Is he a better human being for it? What the hell is a “better human being” anyway? And does having “good” intentions only, qualify as being a good or better-human-being?

K: as I have to be at work in less then an hour… I’ll shall be brief and fill in the
rest tomorrow…why do philosophy? to gain Knowledge… ok, and what shall
we do with that knowledge? it is the Greeks that connected knowledge with being
better…the wise man is the knowledgable man and the one who is “better”…

At it’s heart, Philososphy is about gaining knowledge and that knowledge
must do something or it is wasted time and effort…

and this concept of “better”… this is a value and philosophy is
best with values and not with facts… better then what?
if we understand systems, better would be something that made
the system more efficient or more stable… in our system,
something that is better… is something that improves our current
system… that is better… again, words like better and improve
have certain connotations…but are they worthy goals?
I believe so… but to understand what better and improve is
will take more time then I have at the moment…

I will leave you with this… if not for the improvement of
human beings, what is the point of philosophy?

Kropotkin

As for myself, I’m here looking for a change of mind…
I have become quite depressed since loosing my faith in God, and I want (in vain?) somebody to convince me that there is a God, to convince me that when I die I don’t just stop existing…
I want to believe in God, the after life; but like Spinoza pointed out, belief by its very nature can’t be forced…

What if there is no God and all those who believe that there is, are simply mistaken?

Then wanting to be convinced that there is a God is a silly thing to want.

When dealing with things that cannot be changed, one ought to want “what is”.

Despite the specific reasons, and the individual differences, there is a definitive power that wisdom has over people.

Powerful answers to powerful questions, knowledge that can change lives. That is what people are seeking, why you are here.

Peter wrote: “What is the point of philosophy?”

Why not instead of jumping to “better” human being first finding out who or what a human being is and what his role in the universe is. Somewhere along the line a man has decided that he can be whatever he wishes and be able to justify whatever things he wants to do. So, “better” becomes relative to one’s perception of who one is, which as we can see today, can be anything whatsoever.

How often are those who spout rhetoric about “bettering humanity” or “being a better christian” genuine and honest with their convictions? Or, are they liars?

As-if philosophy must be to the benefit to all, rather than a few? If people forego hard work, gaining wisdom, then what right do others have to it?

That’s like saying, “I’m entitled to the fruits of your labors …because humanity.”

Doesn’t it come down to…who are you producing philosophy for…yourself only or others? Communication and human connectivity, sharing, are strong motivators for letting the cat out of the bag, of course, put pride and ego on top of that and you have sunken ships from loose lips or typing finger tips. Billions of individual perceptions or misconceptions mess intentions up no matter how pure they were set upon so ideas are loaded weapons to be handled by those who care.

K: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights,
that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…

if we hold these words to be true, and I do, then we must to the best of our
abilities, share what we can with those who need it…even if they
don’t met our “standards” of working hard or unable or unwilling to gain
wisdom…in the pursuit of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”,
which is the minuim in regards to what one should expect out of life,
because being human is enough to justify our investment in both people
and the human race…is enough to give to people even if they don’t met with
our approval…I happily give my taxes to give to those who need it, even
if I don’t approve of them…

this lies in the idea of society in which we are connected…
there isn’t you and me, there is us…that idea of society is
the one we need to follow…it is about the betterment of society…

and the fact is, like any system, the system is only as strong as the
weakest link… and if we don’t take care of those who need it, then
what does it say about us, as human beings…and the betterment
of society is about all of us, not just the strong among us…

the strong can take care of themselves, it is those who can’t take
care of themselves who we must do everything in our power to take care of…
why?

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL men are created equal”

and being created equal, means we must treat everyone equal and promote
the values that equality suggest… for from equality comes justice…
to treat equal is to be just…Equality and justice are the same thing…
but I am sure you have a problem with justice also…

for the nature of man requires both equality and justice…

Kropotkin

I’m unconvinced. How is taxation any different than theft? If a man hires me for a job then why are you and your cronies entitled to a % of it, and which %? 25%? 50%?

Would you raise the tax rate to 100% if given the opportunity? Complete slavery to the state?

Isn’t taxation a deprivation of the rights of men and individuals? What “Right” do you have to another man’s work or his business dealings?

K: ummmm, I’ve spent an entire thread on defining man and discovering what a human being is…
see “a new understanding of today, time and space” thread and I’ve written
over 1350 posts on who a human being is and what is their role in the universe is…

it is still a work in progress, I grant you but I have worked harder on this area then
anyone else around here…

Kropotkin

I only give away “free philosophy” when my head is full and I need to clear out some memory space.

Kropotkin is here… for your taxes!

At least somebody answered the particular question.

K: I trust you know the person I purposely named myself after…
Prince Peter Kropotkin… I was an anarchist for many years, and
I’ve read Kropotkin and Bakunin and Pierre-Joseph Proudhon…
Proudhon was the one who coined the phrase “property is theft”
and it was as simple step to “taxes are theft”…

I am still an anarchist at heart…and probably will be all my life…
with that said, I also understand that we don’t have complete freedom…
you don’t and I don’t and no one does… the freedom that we have in this
society is limited… and no one complains about that… you cannot shout
fire in a crowed theater…and we also accept that we have other limitations
in the state… we must obey the law… we must stop at stop signs…
to drive a car we need a licence…and there are punishments for not obeying
the law…we have a society… and we are a civilization… Just like ancient Rome
and Egypt and Greek…what did those civilizations have? a strong central
government…in fact, to be considered to be a civilization, one must have
a strong central government…and what makes up a civilization?
Roads and schools and hospitals and sewage plants and policeman
and garbage men…each of these play their role in making up
a civilization…to those like you who ask for, no demand the benefits
of civilization without having to pay for it, I say shame…
and to pay for all that civilization?

how else would you pay for all the benefits you get from civilization?
if you don’t like to pay for these benefits, I am sure you are most welcomed
to go to Somalia or some other African nation that is barely functional
and doesn’t have the infrastructure of a civilization…

I like my civilization and its infrastructure that allows me to live in
peace and prosperity…and to get that all civilization and infrastructure
I gotta pay for it… and I am ok with that…it is too bad you are selfish to
want the benefits of civilization without having to pay for it…

Kropotkin