on discussing god and religion

At least give me credit for my above statement.

This of course is the “philosopher’s God”. And it is always endlessly fascinating to imagine that perhaps we can “reason” ourselves into resolving it once and for all.

But one suspects that for the overwhelming preponderance of religious folks out there, this is the last thing they think about.

Instead, as God and religion relate to the actual lives that they live, they are almost certainly preoccupied by other things:

1] is there a reason for all this?
2] what happens when I die?
3] is there a way to anchor morality to forever?

And the part that swirls around emotional reactions rooted in a brain rooted in nature rooted in whatever made it possible for this particular something to exist instead of something else. Or instead of nothing at all.

You know, or so it seems to me.

These are very much my own copncerns too.
I write quite a lot of theology, its almost an obsession.
A scarey thought, which also seems to have worried St Augustine, is: what if i get my theology wrong, and God exists, and he/it doesnt like what i have said about him/it…
Could i end up burning in hell?

But just because some God exists (if in fact he/it does) doesnt tell us anything about the afterlife, or even if there is one.
Like Harris says (i forget whete): “there could be a God but no afterlife; there could an afterlife but no God”.

What do you write?

It used to be all about my opinions regarding the nature of God, these days its more about exploring the relationship between God and science… I’ll put some stuff on here soon, possibly tomorrow.

My own reaction here revolves around asking, “how pertinent is an observation of this sort in a philosophy venue?”

Philosophy is defined as, “the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.”

How then would one as a philosopher examine any particular experience that he or she had relating to the existence of God in order to impart how this might further our understanding of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality and existence?

Whether “academically” or “existentially”.

It seems of importance here that any personal experiences that one might have has be examined by others in order to extract that which might be construed as true for all of us.

Otherwise this experience might be explained in a way that has nothing to do with the existence of God.

But first and foremost we need to be told [in some detail] what this experience actually consisted of.

As some point out, He did bestow free will upon us.

On the other hand, our distance ancestors did manage to fuck that up in the Garden. In other words, by using it as God intended. But not as God intended.

And, now, because of a choice that they made, we continue to pay the price!

Or so we are told by those absolutely certain that they will never burn in Hell. Why? Because they do grasp the one and the only manner in which to worship and adore the one and the only true God.

They are just unable to demonstrate that to me here. Nor do many seem willing to actually explore the part where the behaviors they choose here and now are connected “in their head” to what they imagine the fate of their soul to be there and then.

49 pages now and almost nothing in that regard!

Once again you take my posts out of context in another thread in order to enhance, or repeat, your basic arguments. I had hoped we had simply agreed to disagree… There is nothing further I can give you because you seem able to accept nothing but your own repetitions. Do not quote me from other threads than your own. You do not refute ideas; you simply dismiss them because they do not fit your agenda.

Perhaps we do have free will that has been bestowed on us by God… Or perhaps we live in a totally deterministic universe, and free will is just an illusion. It feels to me right now that i am choosing to write this on ilp, but there is evidence from neuroscience that free will IS illusory.

Iamb,
Please do not take my posts out of context in other threads in order to enhance your own. You do not refute ideas; you simply dismiss them in favor of your own inflexible agenda. Do not quote me from threads other than your own.

There are those who seem to make very little distinction between having faith in God and believing in God’s existence. Faith does not appear to imply doubt at all to them. At least that has been my own experience in being around them over the years.

And, in a similar way, it might be argued that I myself have faith in No God. After all, how could I possibly assert that God does not exist when I have absolutely no capacity whatsoever in which to determine and then to demonstrate that.

And “choice” here is all the more nebulous. It would seem that in order to attain immortality, salvation and divine justice, there must be a God able to judge those who are worthy of them.

Where things becomes particularly problematic for me [on this thread] is in grappling with the choices we face on this side of the grave given that we seem unable to move beyond faith. More or less blind, perhaps, but still just an existential leap of faith.

I keep coming back to that yawning gap between all that is at stake, and how very little we have at our disposal in determining which God to take that leap to.

If we can even manage to “think”/“will” ourselves into having faith at all.

I created this thread in order to bring zinnat’s philosophical speculations about God and religion “down to earth”. In other words, given the manner in which religious folks imagine their fate “there and then”, how is this pertinent to the behaviors that they choose “here and now”.

Which is fundamentally related to that which interest me most about philosophy: the extent to which philosophers are able to connect the dots between the technical discipline and the quandary that I keep coming back to over and over again: How ought one to live?

In other words, given that, both philosophically and existentially, I have become entangled in this:

If I am always of the opinion that 1] my own values are rooted in dasein and 2] that there are no objective values “I” can reach, then every time I make one particular moral/political leap, I am admitting that I might have gone in the other direction…or that I might just as well have gone in the other direction. Then “I” begins to fracture and fragment to the point there is nothing able to actually keep it all together. At least not with respect to choosing sides morally and politically.

And God is certainly one possible means in which to extract myself from it.

Right?

Look, you make the claim that “God is a force to be experienced”. And that you have in fact had the requisite experience. And now [in your own way] you have the comfort and the consolation of believing what you do.

Yet you come into a philosophy venue and insist that one’s own personal experience with God is all that matters.

Or so it seems to me.

And, sure, okay, if that works for you, fine.

But that doesn’t disqualify me and others from probing into it. What particular experiences did you have? How can others experience the same in order to bring themselves closer to a God, the God, my God?

You’ll either go there or you won’t.

But if you expect others in a philosophy venue to just accept that anyone’s experiences [about anything] need be as far as they go in demonstrating its “wisdom”, well, let’s just say we think about philosophy in very different ways.

But, okay, from now I will refrain from bringing you into this thread.

It does get problematic.

Inherently no doubt.

Well, whatever that means.

With God and religion, the arguments tend to revolve around reconciling human autonomy with an alleged omniscient Creator. If God knows everything, the argument goes, then He already knows what you will say, feel and do. And if He already knows this what actual choice do you have?

On the other hand, the arguments here can become considerably more sophisticated.
Just google “god and free will”: google.com/search?q=god+and … ll&ie=&oe=

I think it was Augustine (or maybe Aquinas) who argued that God can be all-knowing, and man still have free will, because God exists outside of time; and so God sees the past, present and future all at once, in a timeless sort of way.
(Your probably familiar with the argument)
But then it is very difficult to understand how anything could exist outside of time. How could God ever have a thought, for example? A thought must have a beginning, a middle and an end (surely even Gods thoughts must be structured like this, right?), but these concepts only make sense WITHIN time.
Or maybe this is just a limitation of our time-bound minds…

On the other hand, what “on earth” does this mean?

My own reaction to speculation of this sort [embedded in one or another intellectual contraption] is the same: to note that crucial distinction between believing it “in your head” and demonstrating that all rational men and women are obligated to believe the same.

Someone is either able to demonstrate [to me, to others] that this is a rational frame of mind or they are not.

First of course by demonstrating the actual existence of a God, the God, my God. An entity that is not in turn largely just an intellectual contraption defined or deduced into existence.

Or predicated on personal experiences able to be conveyed to me, to others, such that I/they might have similar experiences ourselves.

Really in a philosophy venue what else is there?

You can either note how your propositions are applicable to all by connecting the dots between words and worlds, or you can insist the definition and the meaning that you give to the words in your argument [anchored to a particular set of assumptions] is by default the starting point for any discussion. Or by insisting that your own personal experiences need be as far as you go in demonstrating the truthfulness of your claims.

In any event this thread was created in order to explore the relationship between whatever others construe God to be and the manner in which this is pertinent to the behaviors that they choose in a world that I construe to be bursting at the seams with conflicting goods.

In other words, why do so many religious folks here seem to bend over backwards to avoid exploring what appears to me the most fundamental reason for the existence of religion: the parts that swirl around immortality, salvation and divine justice.

And the fact that in order to attain them you must 1] die and then 2] be judged by one or another God as being worthy of them.

And surely this is profoundly related to the manner in which you choose particular behaviors on this side of the grave.

You brought up the argument (from the religious perspective) about free will, I just mentioned a possible counter argument…
But if I understand you correctly, this doesn’t mean much “on earth”.
Philosophy doesn’t have a single object of study. What concerns you might not concern the next philosopher so much… Don’t get me wrong you seem to be interested in the right problems (to me at least), and I can tell you are a smart guy, but my own experience has led me to where I am, yours has led you to where you are…

Im in a bit of a rush right now, but I hope to talk to you more after Xmas (and address the points you raise).

On earth is just where our own rendition of mindful matter happens to reside. Here and now. Though it seems absolutely mindboggling that a God, the God would create a universe as staggeringly immense as this one seems to be and then put those who worship and adore Him only on this particular rock.

But what does that mean? And how would I/could I possibly convey what it means to others? How can I even know with any certainty that the words I am typing here are not only as they ever could have been typed? Or that if there is a God and this God is said to be omniscient, that my own “will” here could possibly not be wholly in sync with His?

That seems to be the problem: That any arguments about God seem to be inherently problematic. We don’t even really know if this is something that we ever really can know.

Sure, it’s utterly fascinating to explore, but we all seem to be in the same boat here: specks of existence on the ocean of reality intertwined somehow in whatever or whoever brought into existence Existence itself.

So, what always dumbfounds me are those who actually imagine that this is something that they can know…do know.

Recognizing that in the past [over and again] I was one of them.

Meanwhile, here we here: interacting in one or another human community and ever and always confronted with the question, “how ought one to live?”

Then it all depends on the extent to which your own particular life [here and now] is either more or less tumultuous when confronting it.

Yes, if your life hardly changes at all from day to day to day, and you are able to sustain this stability for months or years, it is possible to anchor your answer to something that seems like a foundation. Maybe philosophical, maybe political, maybe religious.

Or maybe just circumstantial.

I’m just not one of them. From my frame of mind, my interaction with others is entangled precariously in my dilemma above; and predicated on the assumption that in a world without God, human interactions are essentially meaningless and absurd; and ending for all of eternity in death and oblivion.

Okay, with respect to your own interactions with others – interactions revolving around conflicting value judgments, conflicting goods – what have your own experiences conveyed to you?

And if you do acknowledge that your own frame of mind [here and now] is in fact embedded in that particular sequence of experience, to what extent can philosophy enable you to transcend this in providing a moral and political framework applicable to all reasonable men and women?

Either with or without God.

All of the above [a No God narrative basically] may well be entirely in sync with the optimal or the only rational manner in which to construe the meaning of God and religion.

Let’s just assume this.

To me, this would seem to suggest…

1] “I” is obliterated for all time to come when we die
2] there is no teleological font “behind” existence; so, for all practical purposes, we live in an essentially absurd and meaningless world
3] morality [on this side of the grave] is basically just an existential contraption rooted in particular historical, cultural and experiential [interpersonal] contexts
4] given oblivion, there is no possibility of Justice rooted in one or another teleological font

So the question might then be this: How is all of this not applicable in turn to non-theistic narratives?

How would they go about encompassing “fool proof methods to deal with the same inherent unavoidable existential crisis within”? Crises that seem so handily, readily shunted aside by a belief in one or another “loving just and merciful God” — a denominational God that works in “mysterious ways, His wonders to behold”?

From my frame of mind, a leap of faith to a God, the God, my God is basically just the acknowledgment that there seem to be no viable alternatives around.

At least none that folks like me see.

And the psychological element here seems applicable to all frames of mind that argue for a way in which to construe, among other things, the “meaning of life” in terms of “one of us” or “one of them”.

Again, the more important point being not which of us is right, but that one of us must be.

The above has nothing to do with God.

  1. Yes, “I” is obliterated.

  2. No ‘teleological’ ends do not necessary imply our life is absurd and meaningless.
    Just as we can abstract the laws of nature from observations and experiment, we can abstract the meaning of life and strive to make it meaningful while being alive until the inevitable. Otherwise all humans might as well commit suicide now.

  3. Just as we can abstract the meaning of life from observations of nature, we can abstract absolute moral laws based on reason to guide living life optimally.

  4. There are no absolute justice. Based on 3 above, humanity we can continually improved on Justice.

What I am proposing is for the future.
I am optimistic [whilst you are pessimistic] based on current trend of the exponential expansion of knowledge, humanity will eventually be able to replace theism with fool proof methods to deal with the same inherent unavoidable existential crisis within.
As I have shown we already have such existing methods, e.g. Buddhism and others, so it is just a matter of refining this methods without the religious baggage.

I am not sure of your point and I don’t think it is relevant for me because my views are non-theistic, so no question of God coming my way.

I don’t think there can be specific right ways but what is critical is an adaptable model and system that is always guided to the general right path [determined meaning of life as above]. Note the generic Problem Solving Technique for Life that I introduced somewhere. That is a self-correcting system.

As I had stated elsewhere your expectation, i.e. 'ALL [100%] that is to be known…" for your model is an impossibility for any human being, thus it is moot and a wrong starter.