a new understanding of today, time and space.

the motivations that drive us are diverse and exist within
both the environment and within us…

as a child, you are deprived of food, then, maybe, as a adult
you are driven to seek out food… become a foodie perhaps…

that which we seek, be it knowledge or love or justice or sensory
experiences are the foundations of the things we do and the things we
seek…I have no desire to have money and that doesn’t drive me
and others the drive for money is ALL they think about… it doesn’t make us,
either of us wrong, just different…

there is no way that I can tell, to say one drive is better or worse, then
any other drive… but these drives complicate our understanding
of the human being… we have a rough idea of who, what, when, where, why
and how of the human being… but that understanding takes a beating when
we try to include aspects of the human nature, emotions for example and
that which drives us to action…or what we search for…

the motivations of the human being is as individual as we are
and as hard to understand as we are…

I don’t believe we can ever really, truly grasp the human being until
we begin to understand the motivations and drives of human beings…

so what drives you?

Kropotkin

Then you have significantly more to “know” about you.

K: actually, I am atheist and don’t believe in god or the need for a prime mover…
unless you have a better idea, the big bang still fits the bill as the best answer as
to what began the universe…and yes, atoms vibrate… AND…there is nothing
to add to this… the atoms vibrate and…it doesn’t change anything if they vibrate…

now as far as the last part goes, I am not attempting to “prove” anything either by reasoning
or evidence… I am simply attempting to understand human beings and the human experience…

you have to understand before you can prove…

Kropotkin

K: we are made of atoms… consciousness is another different mess I have yet to explore…
the problem you have is, what is consciousness? how do you define consciousness?
point out where exactly in the human body does consciousness exists? if you say the mind,
I have seen human brains, where exactly in the brain does consciousness exist?
to makes existence “consciousness” has it owns problems and if you have studied
the problem, you would know what they are… so…

Kropotkin

I don’t have a better idea than the big bang, but I do have one that is equally as good. Perhaps the universe, rather than exploding, was inflated like a balloon. Perhaps matter and energy were created and the force of doing such inflated space time beyond the point of a singularity. There is also the possibility that the universe has always existed. To me, the big bang and God are both attempts to try to get around our incapability to grasp infinity. There is no logical reason why the universe has to have been created, so there is no logical reason to attempt to explain its creation. Also, the big bang is not science because it is not falsifiable.

That consciousness exists is an axiom. The fact that you are typing here proves that you are assuming that it does.

"When a savage who has not learned to speak declares that existence must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of non-existence—when he declares that your consciousness must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of unconsciousness—he is asking you to step into a void outside of existence and consciousness to give him proof of both—he is asking you to become a zero gaining knowledge about a zero.

When he declares that an axiom is a matter of arbitrary choice and he doesn’t choose to accept the axiom that he exists, he blanks out the fact that he has accepted it by uttering that sentence, that the only way to reject it is to shut one’s mouth, expound no theories and die." -Ayn Rand from “The New Intellectuals”

Not to interrupt, but briefly, if not created, then how did it get here?

Remember,

:sunglasses:

K: I didn’t ask if consciousness existed, I asked what it was and where do you find it?
which body part had it? if I dissect you, where would I find consciousness?

Kropotkin

deleted

There is an actual answer to that (not to get too deep into it). But one could ask, “Exactly where in your PC is the application program?” And one could say, “It is in the computer’s memory”. And that would be true, but where in the memory? - different places at different times and in different pieces. If not stored on disc, where does it go when the computer is turned off?

To someone who had no idea of how computers worked, those might be mysterious questions. The same is true for those who have no idea how their brain works. If you don’t know enough about a computer, no answer will be very revealing and is always questionable. The same is true when you don’t know enough about your brain: “Your consciousness exists in your memory”, but what did that really tell you and how could you know the truth of it either way?

K: personally, I have no idea where the computer memory is, but, but many
people do know where the memory is and they build computers knowing this
fact… (I am researching building my own computer, so this is rather relevant)
but no one, not doctors or scientist or philosophers knows where consciousness exists…
do the research and you will read, “it is believed that consciousness exists in…”
does consciousness exists in your memory? no one knows… that is the point…
no one knows…ask your local neighborhood doctor and they have no idea…
so, I am still waiting for an answer… where does consciousness exist?

Kropotkin

You are seriously mistaken about that, but why did you even think such was true?

I’m thinking that if there is argument concerning it, a lack of consensus, you take that as “no one knows”. If ten people are arguing, couldn’t one of them actually be right?

Of course someone knows. Many people know. But it is a sensitive, and even religious and spiritual issue, so of course people are going to fear resolution and thus argue. Is the Earth flat? It took hundreds of years and photographic evidence of such a solidly concrete thing in order to convince everyone - to end the debate. What is it going to take to convince the whole world of mostly not-very-bright people exactly what consciousness is, much less where it is?

Who would you believe? How could you ever possibly know the truth of it, except to take the word of a consensus of others. Which priesthood are you going to accept as the holy one?

There are only two choices; logically figure things out for yourself or take the word of others. Most people can’t do either. Thus they are always arguing, especially over things that they cannot even take a picture of.

You are seriously mistaken about that, but why did you even think such was true?

[quote=“Peter Kropotkin”]
do the research and you will read, “it is believed that consciousness exists in…”
does consciousness exists in your memory? no one knows… that is the point…
no one knows…ask your local neighborhood doctor and they have no idea…
so, I am still waiting for an answer… where does consciousness exist?

J: I’m thinking that if there is argument concerning it, a lack of consensus, you take that as “no one knows”. If ten people are arguing, couldn’t one of them actually be right?

Of course someone knows. Many people know. But it is a sensitive, and even religious and spiritual issue, so of course people are going to fear resolution and thus argue. Is the Earth flat? It took hundreds of years and photographic evidence of such a solidly concrete thing in order to convince everyone - to end the debate. What is it going to take to convince the whole world of mostly not-very-bright people exactly what consciousness is, much less where it is?

K: ok, great, where is consciousness? simply enough question…
where is it?

Kropotkin

I return from mundane questions to my study of the enlightenment…

one thing I note is that “the philophes”, the name they gave themselves during
the enlightenment, study theory for the use of action…

we have action, but very little theory and that is our weakness…
we must have theory AS WELL as action for us to properly achieve or
undertake something… it is the theory of who we are and what we are to do
that is weak and that is part of our failure…for it requires both action AND
theory for anything to be accomplished and we have action but no theory and
until we work out theories that underline whatever action we wish to do, we shall
be spinning our wheels…

Kropotkin

this most ancient of questions lie at the heart of the modern world,

in what am I to have faith in?

the old forms of god/gods and religion has been eroded away… swept away by
science and doubt…

how can I have faith in science? all science is facts and facts change
single day… what is “true” today is false tomorrow and I must believe/have faith in
something that is more permanent… something that will be not only today but tomorrow…

this leads back to our motivation post… what motivates us? is it truth or justice or
material good or fame? what are we to have faith in, what are we to believe is a worthy
goal to pursue? and once again, two distinct and separate questions become one…

so, brave soul, answer me this…

in what do I have faith in?

be honest, what do you have faith in?

Kropotkin

when I ask, who are we?

I don’t just ask who are you individually, but I ask as a people, a culture, a society…

who are we as a people? who are we as a cultural, who are we as a society?

we are blind to who we are individually, but we are even more clueless when
asked about us as an people or a society or a culture…

I live in California and have done so for decades, but I was born in the Midwest,
born in Minnesota and lived in Illinois for several years… so how is Californians
different as a people then those of Minnesota or Illinois? and does it even matter?

what culture do we share on the west coast that they don’t share in the Midwest? or
visa versa?

who are we? this is not an individual question
but a collective question…a social question…
what do I share with you? and what do you share with the guy down the street and
what do we share with the man in China and the women in Africa and the
boy in South America?

the commonality of the human being… we are one…

Kropotkin

Hey Krop, I’m transitional ly from Minneapolis and live in Los Angeles. What year did you get here? I got here in the late 60’s.
I remember talking to you before your trip to Europe. Well ILP is a small world after all.

K: I was born in Minneapolis and now live just south of San Francisco, on the peninsula…
I arrived here in June of 1973… freshman year of high school…and yes, not only is ILP
a small world… but I bet my next week paycheck that we know someone in common…
everyone on earth is only 6 degrees of separation from everyone else

which is kinda my point… we are connected in far more ways then we suspect…

Kropotkin

…whenever men are told to live according to nature, to acquired
knowledge by discovering universal truths and the natural law by which
the physical and moral world is governed… this is in my book on
enlightenment “the Enlightenment” an interpretation by Peter Gay…
what I would like to point out is this idea that we can live according to nature…
what exactly does this mean? nature is this thing, of which we are part of, that
exists around us… the tree you can see and the sky, bright and blue today, and
the sea in which the fish live in… how do you turn that into living life
according to nature? Perhaps being part of the natural cycle, not changing or
adapting the environment? but that is not true for many animals do change their
environment to suit their needs…living as we live in part of a system…
perhaps recognizing we exist in a system and doing everything we can to
keep the system stable and functional… maybe that is part of living within nature…

acquiring knowledge by discovering universal truths… but how do we
know first of all, A. that what we have discovered is universal truths?
and B. how can we live according to universal truths?
how do we live according to the theory of relativity?
or how does the theory of gravity help us understand how we are to live?
how does a scientific theory help us with morality or ethics?

and the natural laws by which the physical and “moral” world is governed…
how are we to understand how we are to live in terms of natural laws in
a physical world… the second part is “moral” world and what is the connection
between a “moral” world and the physical world?

is morality based upon natural laws like gravity or evolution or relativity?
I don’t see how… the disconnect between the theory and the practice,
theory and action is great here… this disconnect is part of the modern world
problem… we are disconnected from the theories which are supposed to
help us formulate actions…this divorce of theory and action is at the heart
of the modern problem which we face… how do we connect theory with action?

because which theory should lead us to which action? we have no means to judge
what theories of life, be it Christian or stoic or medieval that we should follow to
what actions?

Kropotkin

we have economic systems and political systems…
economic systems are capitalism and feudalism
and hunter/gatherer and about 5 other economic systems

the economic system creates a morality… is a way of behavior…
our economic system is a way of behavior… how are we to act toward
one another…

what is the definition of capitalism? private vices which creates a public good…

in other words, a moral man doesn’t factor into capitalism… we can be greedy
and selfish and immoral in capitalism… in fact, it is expected and DESIRED in
a capitalistic system…our morality is determined by our economic and political
system…our public behavior is determined under our economic and political system…

want to have moral people? then our economic system of capitalism is not the way to go…
for it encourages immorality and greed and selfish behavior… private vices for the public good…

do you want “moral” people… want a “moral” society… then you must advocate for
communism or socialism… because in communism and socialism… private vices are not
for the public good… private vices are detrimental to a communistic system,
detrimental to a socialist system… both economical and politically, private
vices are detrimental to each whereas in capitalism and in democracy,
private vices are valued…democracy… whereas every man decides for himself
on grounds he chooses to value… we decide our private actions based
on what is best for us… EVEN IF those actions are detrimental to the group or
the society at large…we have the freedom to act in our own best interest
even if that action harms and damages the group or society or the culture at large…

private vices that create a public good… what is capitalism…
private vices that create a public good… what is democracy…

and what is the value of private vices that harm society, that harm our group,
that harms our culture?

Kropotkin

what we need is not the courage of our convictions,
but the courage for an attack upon our convictions…

as my last post touch upon, was the idea that capitalism was
the idea of private vices creating public good and I touched upon
democracy as within this framework of private vices creating public good…

I do believe in democracy as the best system but that is my conviction…
and worthy of an attack…

perhaps we should be clear about what I’m talking about…
are we talking about democracy or are we talking about representative
democracy? I believe we should start with representative democracy which
is the system we have in place right now…(once again, we are talking about theory
instead of reality… and this vital problem of theory vs reality in the modern world)

I have railed against representative democracy, time and time again…
and for good reason… any thinking person who is even vaguely honest can
see for themselves that the representatives we send to our local state capital and
Washington DC have failed to represent us, the people and those same representatives
have sold themselves to the highest bidder… that much is starkly clear…
the entire tax cut bill just passed is one big giveaway to their donor’s as
several congressman have stated that their donor’s are pushing for this tax bill
and that is good enough for them to pass this bill…

if we are being sold down the river as is evident by the congressmen actions,
then we must take matter into our own hands…

but that leaves the second matter at hand which is the problem of
private vices creating public good… how does direct democracy solve this
problem?

it doesn’t… that seems to be the conclusion we can draw here…

so now what? we try other failed experiments of the political among which
are monarchy and oligarchy and dictatorship and tribal and chiefdoms
among other political systems…each of those had their time in the sun
and then they too failed… and failed because those systems failed to adapt
to the growing populations…to adapt to changing environments including
fast growing population and changing environmental conditions must mean
we must have an adaptable and changing political system… which leaves out
several of these political systems as too unchanging and dogmatic…

private vices creates public good… but we know that is not true…
capitalism has created severe and very damaging political, social, economic and
environmental damages to the western world…

we only have to look and see that damage…

so what is left? I believe the answer is in democracy but not in
representative democracy… those people can be and have been compromised
by money and greed… we can no longer trust our representatives to do the right thing…
so we must take matters into our own hands and reclaim democracy to be ours…
direct democracy seems to be the answer… but once again how do we solve this
problem of private vices creating public good?

the answer lies in a reorientation of values… we no longer can accept or value
money as the arbiter of values… we can no longer accept money or profit as
a motivating value of human beings… that leads us to unacceptable and damaging
consequences of nihilism that dominates our modern world… we must return to
human values such as love, justice and peace and forgo monetary and financial
goals, material goods as the motivations for our lives…we must reject the nihilism
of the modern age and turn to? I would suggest we return to a value like the pursuit
of justice as a value we can support… or we can undertake the exploration of space
as the motivation for our persons and species and society… a goal that we can support
and will create a goal worth aiming for…

the key here is the sound rejection of materialism and nihilism of the modern age…

Kropotkin