a new understanding of today, time and space.

Do you have any evidence for this claim Peter?

“Babies have three instinctive fears, of snakes, of the dark and of falling.”

I find the snake part especially to be questionable because I remember liking and getting excited about snakes as a child.

I think you have a misunderstanding of what “we” are. We are not made of atoms but of consciousness. Consciousness, as far as we know, requires atoms to exist, but consciousness itself is not atoms, and your consciousness is you, not your body nor your make up. If your consciousness could hypothetically exist as energy, and external from your body, would you say that you no longer exist?

Again, the atoms have nothing to do with you except for the fact that you require them to be conscious. Atoms have no history because history has to be recorded.

From the Ayn Rand Lexicon:
“Existence exists—and the act of grasping that statement implies two corollary axioms: that something exists which one perceives and that one exists possessing consciousness, consciousness being the faculty of perceiving that which exists.”

You seem to be claiming that atoms exist outside of consciousness. They don’t. They can’t exist unless someone is perceiving them, and nobody has perceived and recorded the life of the atoms of JFK, Plato, or Julius Caesar so they literally have no history. We can make conjecture or supposition of their history, but nobody can actually perceive it which is why such history does not exist.

You sound like me when I used to frequent this forum in my early 20’s lol. I am still a holist, so I want to like what you are saying here, especially in the OP which I would have considered posting on my facebook wall and quoting you, with your permission, but you advocated voting, which I am against. You also make all kinds of unfounded claims about God and the need for a prime mover and assume that the big bang theory is correct. There is no need for a prime mover. Things move independently of that. For example, atoms vibrate. That has nothing to do with the big bang even if it does exist which is in question. You probably shouldn’t say anything in a philosophy forum that you can’t prove using either reasoning or evidence or preferably, both.

the motivations that drive us are diverse and exist within
both the environment and within us…

as a child, you are deprived of food, then, maybe, as a adult
you are driven to seek out food… become a foodie perhaps…

that which we seek, be it knowledge or love or justice or sensory
experiences are the foundations of the things we do and the things we
seek…I have no desire to have money and that doesn’t drive me
and others the drive for money is ALL they think about… it doesn’t make us,
either of us wrong, just different…

there is no way that I can tell, to say one drive is better or worse, then
any other drive… but these drives complicate our understanding
of the human being… we have a rough idea of who, what, when, where, why
and how of the human being… but that understanding takes a beating when
we try to include aspects of the human nature, emotions for example and
that which drives us to action…or what we search for…

the motivations of the human being is as individual as we are
and as hard to understand as we are…

I don’t believe we can ever really, truly grasp the human being until
we begin to understand the motivations and drives of human beings…

so what drives you?

Kropotkin

Then you have significantly more to “know” about you.

K: actually, I am atheist and don’t believe in god or the need for a prime mover…
unless you have a better idea, the big bang still fits the bill as the best answer as
to what began the universe…and yes, atoms vibrate… AND…there is nothing
to add to this… the atoms vibrate and…it doesn’t change anything if they vibrate…

now as far as the last part goes, I am not attempting to “prove” anything either by reasoning
or evidence… I am simply attempting to understand human beings and the human experience…

you have to understand before you can prove…

Kropotkin

K: we are made of atoms… consciousness is another different mess I have yet to explore…
the problem you have is, what is consciousness? how do you define consciousness?
point out where exactly in the human body does consciousness exists? if you say the mind,
I have seen human brains, where exactly in the brain does consciousness exist?
to makes existence “consciousness” has it owns problems and if you have studied
the problem, you would know what they are… so…

Kropotkin

I don’t have a better idea than the big bang, but I do have one that is equally as good. Perhaps the universe, rather than exploding, was inflated like a balloon. Perhaps matter and energy were created and the force of doing such inflated space time beyond the point of a singularity. There is also the possibility that the universe has always existed. To me, the big bang and God are both attempts to try to get around our incapability to grasp infinity. There is no logical reason why the universe has to have been created, so there is no logical reason to attempt to explain its creation. Also, the big bang is not science because it is not falsifiable.

That consciousness exists is an axiom. The fact that you are typing here proves that you are assuming that it does.

"When a savage who has not learned to speak declares that existence must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of non-existence—when he declares that your consciousness must be proved, he is asking you to prove it by means of unconsciousness—he is asking you to step into a void outside of existence and consciousness to give him proof of both—he is asking you to become a zero gaining knowledge about a zero.

When he declares that an axiom is a matter of arbitrary choice and he doesn’t choose to accept the axiom that he exists, he blanks out the fact that he has accepted it by uttering that sentence, that the only way to reject it is to shut one’s mouth, expound no theories and die." -Ayn Rand from “The New Intellectuals”

Not to interrupt, but briefly, if not created, then how did it get here?

Remember,

:sunglasses:

K: I didn’t ask if consciousness existed, I asked what it was and where do you find it?
which body part had it? if I dissect you, where would I find consciousness?

Kropotkin

deleted

There is an actual answer to that (not to get too deep into it). But one could ask, “Exactly where in your PC is the application program?” And one could say, “It is in the computer’s memory”. And that would be true, but where in the memory? - different places at different times and in different pieces. If not stored on disc, where does it go when the computer is turned off?

To someone who had no idea of how computers worked, those might be mysterious questions. The same is true for those who have no idea how their brain works. If you don’t know enough about a computer, no answer will be very revealing and is always questionable. The same is true when you don’t know enough about your brain: “Your consciousness exists in your memory”, but what did that really tell you and how could you know the truth of it either way?

K: personally, I have no idea where the computer memory is, but, but many
people do know where the memory is and they build computers knowing this
fact… (I am researching building my own computer, so this is rather relevant)
but no one, not doctors or scientist or philosophers knows where consciousness exists…
do the research and you will read, “it is believed that consciousness exists in…”
does consciousness exists in your memory? no one knows… that is the point…
no one knows…ask your local neighborhood doctor and they have no idea…
so, I am still waiting for an answer… where does consciousness exist?

Kropotkin

You are seriously mistaken about that, but why did you even think such was true?

I’m thinking that if there is argument concerning it, a lack of consensus, you take that as “no one knows”. If ten people are arguing, couldn’t one of them actually be right?

Of course someone knows. Many people know. But it is a sensitive, and even religious and spiritual issue, so of course people are going to fear resolution and thus argue. Is the Earth flat? It took hundreds of years and photographic evidence of such a solidly concrete thing in order to convince everyone - to end the debate. What is it going to take to convince the whole world of mostly not-very-bright people exactly what consciousness is, much less where it is?

Who would you believe? How could you ever possibly know the truth of it, except to take the word of a consensus of others. Which priesthood are you going to accept as the holy one?

There are only two choices; logically figure things out for yourself or take the word of others. Most people can’t do either. Thus they are always arguing, especially over things that they cannot even take a picture of.

You are seriously mistaken about that, but why did you even think such was true?

[quote=“Peter Kropotkin”]
do the research and you will read, “it is believed that consciousness exists in…”
does consciousness exists in your memory? no one knows… that is the point…
no one knows…ask your local neighborhood doctor and they have no idea…
so, I am still waiting for an answer… where does consciousness exist?

J: I’m thinking that if there is argument concerning it, a lack of consensus, you take that as “no one knows”. If ten people are arguing, couldn’t one of them actually be right?

Of course someone knows. Many people know. But it is a sensitive, and even religious and spiritual issue, so of course people are going to fear resolution and thus argue. Is the Earth flat? It took hundreds of years and photographic evidence of such a solidly concrete thing in order to convince everyone - to end the debate. What is it going to take to convince the whole world of mostly not-very-bright people exactly what consciousness is, much less where it is?

K: ok, great, where is consciousness? simply enough question…
where is it?

Kropotkin

I return from mundane questions to my study of the enlightenment…

one thing I note is that “the philophes”, the name they gave themselves during
the enlightenment, study theory for the use of action…

we have action, but very little theory and that is our weakness…
we must have theory AS WELL as action for us to properly achieve or
undertake something… it is the theory of who we are and what we are to do
that is weak and that is part of our failure…for it requires both action AND
theory for anything to be accomplished and we have action but no theory and
until we work out theories that underline whatever action we wish to do, we shall
be spinning our wheels…

Kropotkin

this most ancient of questions lie at the heart of the modern world,

in what am I to have faith in?

the old forms of god/gods and religion has been eroded away… swept away by
science and doubt…

how can I have faith in science? all science is facts and facts change
single day… what is “true” today is false tomorrow and I must believe/have faith in
something that is more permanent… something that will be not only today but tomorrow…

this leads back to our motivation post… what motivates us? is it truth or justice or
material good or fame? what are we to have faith in, what are we to believe is a worthy
goal to pursue? and once again, two distinct and separate questions become one…

so, brave soul, answer me this…

in what do I have faith in?

be honest, what do you have faith in?

Kropotkin

when I ask, who are we?

I don’t just ask who are you individually, but I ask as a people, a culture, a society…

who are we as a people? who are we as a cultural, who are we as a society?

we are blind to who we are individually, but we are even more clueless when
asked about us as an people or a society or a culture…

I live in California and have done so for decades, but I was born in the Midwest,
born in Minnesota and lived in Illinois for several years… so how is Californians
different as a people then those of Minnesota or Illinois? and does it even matter?

what culture do we share on the west coast that they don’t share in the Midwest? or
visa versa?

who are we? this is not an individual question
but a collective question…a social question…
what do I share with you? and what do you share with the guy down the street and
what do we share with the man in China and the women in Africa and the
boy in South America?

the commonality of the human being… we are one…

Kropotkin

Hey Krop, I’m transitional ly from Minneapolis and live in Los Angeles. What year did you get here? I got here in the late 60’s.
I remember talking to you before your trip to Europe. Well ILP is a small world after all.